Not much to say about Tampa that is positive.  It was the 4th of July weekend (Saturday to be exact), and the tourist area (Ybor City) was pretty dead (don't even ask about Downtown).  Their trolley system (trolley is an intentional description) is terrible and is an example of what NOT to do with trolley and/or streetcar systems.  Any who, enjoy what you can of Tampa.

 

 

1. Lets start things off with some skyline shots...

 

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3. Now onto Ybor City...

 

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13. Lots of grayscale going on in this thread.

 

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15. Look out for TROLLEYS...damn things giving streetcars a bad name.

 

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18. One benefit to modern streetcars is that they load almost flush with the sidewalk...making them ADA friendly and quick/easy to load.  Why you build a streetcar system with elevated platforms in this day and age is beyond me.

 

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20. Vintage

 

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25. Without...

 

26. ...and with the lame trolley.

 

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28. Here is the trolley loading very slowly.

 

29. Alright enough b!tching about Tampa's lousy trolley system geared towards tourists only.  Back to the city pics...

 

30. Downtown now...as dead as dead can be.  I actually walked out into the middle of the street to take some of these pics.  No need to worry, there wasn't even hardly any vehicular traffic.

 

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36. And I'll leave you with a little puke in your mouth.  So long until St. Petersburg

Don't you love the single track trolley?!  LOL

 

I swear I can walk from the convention center to channelside faster than that ridiculous trolley.

 

There downtown is completely dead and surrounded by multiple lots the size of the lots that make up the W.3/W.6 - Superior/St. Clair lots. 

 

There are absolutely no restaurants in downtown, no things to see.  and Ybor city is waaaaaaaay over rated although I like the tobacco leaves that make up the street art.

 

Well, the photos were atleast nice.

Great shots!

The pics are nice, but agree, Tampa has a terrible downtown. seriously nothing going on. You could barley find lunch.  My work when I was there had me downtown everyday...and snooze. Ybor City was probably like a Cleveland Flats in the early 90's. Crazy party spot. Then they tried to clean it up and had some successes. But then it lost some grittiness and character and worse, corporate/chainy places came in. They killed the vibe and has never been the same. Independents are not nearly appreciated as they are here.

 

a couple of adjacent neighborhoods have some character: Hyde park near downtown has some nice 1920's housing and cafes. It has gone a little too much to the dark yuppie side for my taste though. Davis Island is 50's style suburb (although completely walkable and bike friendly) right smack in the middle of the city. Seminole Heights was sort of the alternative, affordable, funky nabe (so of course I lived there).

 

To me Ybor City is a bigger tragedy than downtown failing. It could really have it all, but it never panned out. Of course Tampans love the suburbs even more than Clevelanders, so it is no shock. Oddly there is not the big fear of the city like there is here. Just no interest what so ever in an urban lifestyle. The Mayor that look over on 02 ( I think) wanted to get people downtown, but plans have been slowed due to the economy

Ybor LOOKS nice at least.  Interesting shot of the memorial to Jose Marti.  I would have thought there would be a big one in Miami, as well as the statue of him in NYC.

Ybor City was probably like a Cleveland Flats in the early 90's. Crazy party spot. Then they tried to clean it up and had some successes. But then it lost some grittiness and character and worse, corporate/chainy places came in. They killed the vibe and has never been the same. Independents are not nearly appreciated as they are here.

 

Completely agree, Ybor was much more interesting before the cleanup and mall-ification.

 

A college friend moved there and I used to visit for cheap trips to Florida.  She lived in the strangest named section of town I have ever seen...it was called "New Suburb Beautiful" and had signs actually stating that name similar to the Cleveland ones that announce Little Italy or whatever.  It was a neighborhood of the city that was actually not too bad and kinda walkable...I think it was near Hyde Park.

 

I was also surprised to find out that getting to the beach takes longer than I thought.  She lived right by Tampa Bay (Bayshore Blvd), but we hopped in the car and drove 45 minutes to get to an actual beach....Clearwater(which was actually kinda cool back then).  I think it has been "cleaned up" now too and is boring.

 

Tampa is pretty bland, but in somewhat defense of it, isn't summer there like winter in the north...nobody goes outside because it's so dreadfully hot.

Tampa is pretty bland, but in somewhat defense of it, isn't summer there like winter in the north...nobody goes outside because it's so dreadfully hot.

 

Summer is the down season in terms of visitors, but I wouldn't see this stopping the locals.  It was hot but not too hot if you worked your AC stops correctly.

Near as I can tell no one goes outside in Tampa, period.  I've always found that odd about Florida.  Everyone moves there for the weather then spends all their time inside. 

 

The biggest problem with Ybor is that it is really just the strip of bars/restaurants/shops.  There is almost no housing- just a couple of scattered bungalows and a few new apts/condos that are sort of urban but sort of not.

 

I'll have to check out Seminole Heights next time I'm down there.  It sounds interesting.

Ybor looks interesting at least for a visit, but yeah for the long term it needs residents. Wasn't it a great idea to replace so many of our downtowns with office parks? Brilliant!

The downtown Tampa area needs to figure out how to integrate the University more into the urban core. They are building three large new museums downtown that should help spark more people visiting downtown and add some street life. The Aquarium is top notch.

It sounds like Ybor is a direct comparison to the Flats.  Party scene in the 90's, than a mallification.  Does this have people a little concerned about what our Flats East Bank may become in Cleveland?

yes I have concerns. When you take real urban, and make it into fake urban (Seriously WTF?), or worse, suburban, you are asking for trouble. At least FL get enough tourists to support a venture like that.

 

We can only hope that the suburbinites will like it enough to feel comfortable/like home right in the city. 

It sounds like Ybor is a direct comparison to the Flats. Party scene in the 90's, than a mallification. Does this have people a little concerned about what our Flats East Bank may become in Cleveland?

 

i think its two different things.  Look at where Ybor city is.  If Ybor city was near chanelside I would possibly agree.  But Ybor city is out in a dessert with no connective neighborhoods in site.

The thing doubly bad about that Centro Ybor project is that it forced a family friendly element into the middle of a district that was trying to be Bourbon Street-ish.  Then you obviously have the bad feeling of a new/clean looking mall type development in the middle of a historic district area.

 

I saw mothers with their young children walking around near tobacco shops, sex stores, and what some may view obscene window displays.  I don't have a problem with this, but I could see how a family vacation could be thrown off by a walk around Ybor.  The place just needs to figure out what it wants to be.

The pictures are good at least!

 

Fourth of July weekend in Tampa, folks are not going to be in Ybor (daytime) or Downtown. A lot of locals are on vacation up north or elsewhere this time of year and those that stick around are at the BEACH.

 

With that said I wouldn’t expect people downtown regardless if it was a holiday weekend or not because there is nothing downtown to draw people there. There are very few restaurants open, very little retail, and big league sports stadiums are located elsewhere.

It sounds like Ybor is a direct comparison to the Flats.  Party scene in the 90's, than a mallification.  Does this have people a little concerned about what our Flats East Bank may become in Cleveland?

 

i think its two different things.  Look at where Ybor city is.  If Ybor city was near chanelside I would possibly agree.  But Ybor city is out in a dessert with no connective neighborhoods in site.

You are correct MTS but LOL! Desert? Kind of difficult to call it a desert with 90-100% humidity!

The pictures are good at least!

 

Fourth of July weekend in Tampa, folks are not going to be in Ybor (daytime) or Downtown. A lot of locals are on vacation up north or elsewhere this time of year and those that stick around are at the BEACH.

 

With that said I wouldnt expect people downtown regardless if it was a holiday weekend or not because there is nothing downtown to draw people there. There are very few restaurants open, very little retail, and big league sports stadiums are located elsewhere.

 

The forum arena, channelside and the aquarium are all right downtown along with the convention center.  But as you say being a beach city, people are at beaches, not in the city.

 

The beaches are different and slower than the beaches on the eastern side of the state.

 

the times ive been to Tampa, there is never anything or anyone outside.  We walked from the Westin following the line and didn't see a car until we past the a port authority bldg.  and the only reason we got that car was it had to wait for a car coming from Ybor to pass on the single track before proceeding.

 

The stops in ybor city are about as close together as Shaker Square to Coventry/Drexmore.  We walked to the stop after the car storage/maintence facility we probably could have walked back downtown.  It's really a waste of transit funds.

nice pics.

 

I had the same exerience downtown tampa. Also impossible, to find a cup of coffee.

>Near as I can tell no one goes outside in Tampa, period.  I've always found that odd about Florida.  Everyone moves there for the weather then spends all their time inside. 

 

It's kind of like how people in Ohio complain about the snow, but not when they go to Colorado on a ski trip. 

nice job on a rather dull place.

 

you know ybor was a lot more interesting before it was redeveloped. not for tourists or party people though.

It sounds like Ybor is a direct comparison to the Flats. Party scene in the 90's, than a mallification. Does this have people a little concerned about what our Flats East Bank may become in Cleveland?

 

Not really.  Ybor Centro isn't comparable to what Wolstein is doing, and Ybor City isn't really like the Flats.  It would be more like if there was a strip of clubs in Central somewhere surrounded by vacant lots and some factories, and then someone ploped a small mall in the middle.  That's what would be similar.

It's nice that people from all corners of the state can come together to bash the crap out of Florida.

It's nice that people from all corners of the state can come together to bash the crap out of Florida.

 

LMAO!

 

 

It sounds like Ybor is a direct comparison to the Flats. Party scene in the 90's, than a mallification. Does this have people a little concerned about what our Flats East Bank may become in Cleveland?

 

Not really. Ybor Centro isn't comparable to what Wolstein is doing, and Ybor City isn't really like the Flats. It would be more like if there was a strip of clubs in Central somewhere surrounded by vacant lots and some factories, and then someone ploped a small mall in the middle. That's what would be similar.

I really only meant it in the way that is was mallification of a historic area. Ybor city is nothing like central is or ever was. Two totally different animals. Ybor is the center of early Tampa culture and should have been preserved more meaningfully. maybe I misunderstood, but having lived in both cities for many years,  I do not think that Central to Cleveland  is similar as  Ybor to Tampa. I still think given the Flats location to the lake, river and downtown, it deserves thoughful development  as opposed to suburban office park in a box designs.

It's nice that people from all corners of the state can come together to bash the crap out of Florida.

 

That's a classic.  :laugh:

While Florida has it areas that are poorly designed and sprawling (just as most states do) it also has some outstanding urban areas like Miami Beach, Coconut Grove, Coral Gables, the Dadeland Area, Stuart, etc... and I would take south Florida's mass transit over any in the midwest except Chicago.

While Florida has it areas that are poorly designed and sprawling (just as most states do) it also has some outstanding urban areas like Miami Beach, Coconut Grove, Coral Gables, the Dadeland Area, Stuart, etc... and I would take south Florida's mass transit over any in the midwest except Chicago.

Florida's Mass transit?  By that do you mean toll road galore?

Stuart is an oustanding urban area?  I though it was just a suburb?  Granted, I've only seen a smidgen of it.

i'm guessing the key word there was "south"

While Florida has it areas that are poorly designed and sprawling (just as most states do) it also has some outstanding urban areas like Miami Beach, Coconut Grove, Coral Gables, the Dadeland Area, Stuart, etc... and I would take south Florida's mass transit over any in the midwest except Chicago.

Florida's Mass transit?  By that do you mean toll road galore?

 

Have to agree with MTS here.  There is no mass transit to speak of on the west coast of south Florida...and the east coast has a light rail line of sorts that looks comparable to Cleveland's Waterfront line, and don't get me started on Miami's PeopleMover on rubber tires.  What a freakin' joke.

 

The best thing that could happen is to have some sort of rail transit connection Miami proper to Miami Beach/South Beach area.  The residents there could then get over into Miami for the more chain shopping that is often needed, but still not need more than their motorbike.

I grew up in florida, and it makes me sad.  my folks live there still, in punta gorda/port charlotte, and every visit is unpleasant.  hurricane charlie destroyed the older buildings, leaving only 80s and 90s crap.  too much stucco and not much else. 

 

the last time I was in ybor, it was dead on a saturday night, dirty and full of empty storefronts.  woohoo, old timey!

While Florida has it areas that are poorly designed and sprawling (just as most states do) it also has some outstanding urban areas like Miami Beach, Coconut Grove, Coral Gables, the Dadeland Area, Stuart, etc... and I would take south Florida's mass transit over any in the midwest except Chicago.

Florida's Mass transit?  By that do you mean toll road galore?

 

Have to agree with MTS here.  There is no mass transit to speak of on the west coast of south Florida...and the east coast has a light rail line of sorts that looks comparable to Cleveland's Waterfront line, and don't get me started on Miami's PeopleMover on rubber tires.  What a freakin' joke.

 

The best thing that could happen is to have some sort of rail transit connection Miami proper to Miami Beach/South Beach area.  The residents there could then get over into Miami for the more chain shopping that is often needed, but still not need more than their motorbike.

 

Sorry, I should have been more clear. South Florida to the locals is the West Palm to Miami area not the west coast area (Ft. Myers/Naples). As far as mass transit:

 

Tri-Rail (72 miles with 18 stations) is the regional transit line that runs from North of West Palm Beach to just south of the Miami (metrorail) station area. Metrorail (22.4 miles with 22 stations) runs from the Palmetto area through downtown and south to University/Dadeland area. The metromover (4.4 miles and 21 stations) which is connected into Metrorail. Even if you don't like the metromover, I think 94 miles of mass transit that is completely integrated into the metropolitan bus system is a lot more then Cleveland's Waterfront line or anything else in the midwest (except Chicago).

 

Side note: UncleRando did you enjoy the Miami Beach area (great architecture and pedestrian environment)? Also did you get a chance to go to the other places I noted, if not, next time you are there you should. Those areas are much better urban settings then most of the places you got to visit.

^I think you're forgetting about MegaBus.  :-D

Sorry, I should have been more clear. South Florida to the locals is the West Palm to Miami area not the west coast area (Ft. Myers/Naples). As far as mass transit:

 

Tri-Rail (72 miles with 18 stations) is the regional transit line that runs from North of West Palm Beach to just south of the Miami (metrorail) station area. Metrorail (22.4 miles with 22 stations) runs from the Palmetto area through downtown and south to University/Dadeland area. The metromover (4.4 miles and 21 stations) which is connected into Metrorail. Even if you don't like the metromover, I think 94 miles of mass transit that is completely integrated into the metropolitan bus system is a lot more then Cleveland's Waterfront line or anything else in the midwest (except Chicago).

 

I've been on the tri-rail and what that is, a COMMUTTER RAIL ROAD, inner city mass transit like the Rapids (i.e. subways/light rail).  These are two different things that cannot be compared.

 

Miami's bus system is a mess and the people mover is as UR said, a joke.

 

Cleveland overall transit system is much better designed and run than Miami's in my opinion.  Also, you're comparing the "water front line" which a five stations out of the entire rail system.

Is that how you traveled around Florida? I didn't know it went there. :-)

 

Next time you go, buy a Tri-rail transit ticket, park the car and enjoy some of the urban areas I listed.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. South Florida to the locals is the West Palm to Miami area not the west coast area (Ft. Myers/Naples). As far as mass transit:

 

Tri-Rail (72 miles with 18 stations) is the regional transit line that runs from North of West Palm Beach to just south of the Miami (metrorail) station area. Metrorail (22.4 miles with 22 stations) runs from the Palmetto area through downtown and south to University/Dadeland area. The metromover (4.4 miles and 21 stations) which is connected into Metrorail. Even if you don't like the metromover, I think 94 miles of mass transit that is completely integrated into the metropolitan bus system is a lot more then Cleveland's Waterfront line or anything else in the midwest (except Chicago).

 

I've been on the tri-rail and what that is, a COMMUTTER RAIL ROAD, inner city mass transit like the Rapids (i.e. subways/light rail).  These are two different things that cannot be compared.

 

Miami's bus system is a mess and the people mover is as UR said, a joke.

 

Cleveland overall transit system is much better designed and run than Miami's in my opinion.  Also, you're comparing the "water front line" which a five stations out of the entire rail system.

 

First, I didn't compare it to the waterfront line. UncleRando made that comment, I was just responding.

 

Second, I said you can remove the metromover (downtown) out of discussion. That wasn't even part of the calculation of 94 miles and 40 transit stops.

 

Third, Metrorail (22.4 miles) is a real light rail/subway type transit system.

 

As far as the bus system, I know the system in Broward County does a very good job feeding into Tri-Rail.

 

What makes this system good is how all these work together. I have used this system many times (family, tourism, work, etc...) and have found nothing in the midwest as good (except Chicago). It even gives you connection to all 3 international airports.

 

Tri-rail is a commuter system (it runs every 1/2 during main times) but it runs through only urban areas from W.P.B. to Miami. When was the last time you road Tri-Rail? Has it been since they finished the duel tracks that doubled it running time?

 

I agree the system could be even better and should be. But, its still 94 miles and 40 stops more than most cities.

First, I didn't compare it to the waterfront line. UncleRando made that comment, I was just responding.

 

Second, I said you can remove the metromover (downtown) out of discussion.

 

Third, Metrorail (22.4 miles) is a real light rail/subway type transit system.

 

As far as the bus system, I know the system in Broward County does a very good job feeding into Tri-Rail.

 

What makes this system good is how all these work together. I have used this system many times (family, tourism, work, etc...) and have found nothing in the midwest as good (except Chicago).

 

Tri-rail is a commuter system (it runs every 1/2 during main times) but it runs through only urban areas from W.P.B. to Miami. When was the last time you road Tri-Rail? Has it been since they finished the duel tracks that doubled it running time?

 

First my apologizes, I misread that quote.  I've taken the tri-rail 4 times, last time was in January of this year.

First, I didn't compare it to the waterfront line. UncleRando made that comment, I was just responding.

 

Second, I said you can remove the metromover (downtown) out of discussion.

 

Third, Metrorail (22.4 miles) is a real light rail/subway type transit system.

 

As far as the bus system, I know the system in Broward County does a very good job feeding into Tri-Rail.

 

What makes this system good is how all these work together. I have used this system many times (family, tourism, work, etc...) and have found nothing in the midwest as good (except Chicago).

 

Tri-rail is a commuter system (it runs every 1/2 during main times) but it runs through only urban areas from W.P.B. to Miami. When was the last time you road Tri-Rail? Has it been since they finished the duel tracks that doubled it running time?

 

First my apologizes, I misread that quote.  I've taken the tri-rail 4 times, last time was in January of this year.

 

Also, I was not trying to down play Cleveland's system at all. Any city with mass transit along the lines of South Florida or Cleveland is way ahead of the game and should be commended. Here is hoping more America and midwest cities get on the transit wagon.

Everyone feel better now?  :laugh:

Actually,

I missed your response? :cry:

 

lets try this.

 

Both places have a huge advantage in mass transit compared to Cincy? :lol:

^Well that's certainly not saying much.

^Well that's certainly not saying much.

 

Actually it was 12 words and 94 miles of transit. :lol:

It sounds like Ybor is a direct comparison to the Flats.  Party scene in the 90's, than a mallification.  Does this have people a little concerned about what our Flats East Bank may become in Cleveland?

Not really.  Ybor Centro isn't comparable to what Wolstein is doing, and Ybor City isn't really like the Flats.  It would be more like if there was a strip of clubs in Central somewhere surrounded by vacant lots and some factories, and then someone ploped a small mall in the middle.  That's what would be similar.

I really only meant it in the way that is was mallification of a historic area. Ybor city is nothing like central is or ever was. Two totally different animals. Ybor is the center of early Tampa culture and should have been preserved more meaningfully. maybe I misunderstood, but having lived in both cities for many years,  I do not think that Central to Cleveland  is similar as  Ybor to Tampa. I still think given the Flats location to the lake, river and downtown, it deserves thoughful development  as opposed to suburban office park in a box designs.

 

Outside of the entertainment strip, Ybor and the surrounding area reminded me of Central in that it was largely vacant land and semi industrial with a few remaining bungalows left.  I'm guessing that outside of that strip it is one of the most disinvested and poorest swaths of Tampa, though I could be wrong.  It is also not walkable to Downtown, like the Flats, but seperated by the port, highways, and industrial land.  It seemed to me that it is as if Old River Road was located at about East 40th and Community College, except that Central has seen alot of new housing in the past decade.

 

I agree though that it has been the cultural center of Tampa for a long time.  And that it is a signature neighborhood, like the Flats, and therefore deserves the best quality development.

It sounds like Ybor is a direct comparison to the Flats.  Party scene in the 90's, than a mallification.  Does this have people a little concerned about what our Flats East Bank may become in Cleveland?

Not really.  Ybor Centro isn't comparable to what Wolstein is doing, and Ybor City isn't really like the Flats.  It would be more like if there was a strip of clubs in Central somewhere surrounded by vacant lots and some factories, and then someone ploped a small mall in the middle.  That's what would be similar.

I really only meant it in the way that is was mallification of a historic area. Ybor city is nothing like central is or ever was. Two totally different animals. Ybor is the center of early Tampa culture and should have been preserved more meaningfully. maybe I misunderstood, but having lived in both cities for many years,  I do not think that Central to Cleveland  is similar as  Ybor to Tampa. I still think given the Flats location to the lake, river and downtown, it deserves thoughful development  as opposed to suburban office park in a box designs.

 

Outside of the entertainment strip, Ybor and the surrounding area reminded me of Central in that it was largely vacant land and semi industrial with a few remaining bungalows left.  I'm guessing that outside of that strip it is one of the most disinvested and poorest swaths of Tampa, though I could be wrong.  It is also not walkable to Downtown, like the Flats, but seperated by the port, highways, and industrial land.  It seemed to me that it is as if Old River Road was located at about East 40th and Community College, except that Central has seen alot of new housing in the past decade.

 

I agree though that it has been the cultural center of Tampa for a long time.  And that it is a signature neighborhood, like the Flats, and therefore deserves the best quality development.

I agree with X, when were on the train one of the local employee's told us that the section of the city - if you're on the trolley going from downtown toward Ybor City - that is just after the port is one of the dangerous in Tampa.  It's largely vacant and very similar to what Central was (the area where the PJs was) before the started rebuilding.

sorry to say this, but there are even worse neighborhoods than surrounding Ybor in Tampa! Although there were some bad ones just north of there. I can think of 1/2 dozen or so worse areas.

 

As I do here, I worked in so many so called bad areas, so it is hard to get too worked about what you see here in Cleveland.

One house just  block north of the main Ybor strip... go walking up trying to find this kid charged with serious assult. I am stepping over drunks passed out in yard. lots of flower arrangements everywhere. I get back to the office and call the Public Defenders office to tell them I could not find the kid, but whats up with all the flowers? "oh thats a memorial, someone was shot there yesterday" geeesh.

 

Much of Nebraska av, suitcase city and so on are even worse. I have gone into so many Cleveland neighborhoods alone and w/o issue. Whereas in Tampa there were some me and collegues simply could not go into even as a human service workers (rocks thrown at car, surronded, you name it). 

 

 

These descriptions of Tampa and Ybor City sound a lot like Dayton (dead as doornails downtown) and Oregon 5th Stret (still a bit gritty, but they are trying to yuppify it)

oddly downtown tampa did not seem "dangerous" to suburbinites. There simply was nobody there after 5pm. No good guys, bad guys, no one!

oddly downtown tampa did not seem "dangerous" to suburbinites. There simply was nobody there after 5pm. No good guys, bad guys, no one!

 

That was my observation.  I walked from the Westin to the Hyatt at about 10PM.  There was nobody out.  NOBODY.  It was like a cheap Steven King novel.