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Forbes: America's Fastest Dying Cities

Guest blackmjc
Guest blackmjc
in City Discussion

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what a glum read

It's FORBES.  The PD of magazines.  One breathe we're a bohemian paradise, now were a dying city!  They cannot be trusted.

 

This like Forbes other lists - regardless of where cities in Ohio rate - is crap! 

 

Ignore this BS.

Sure, we UOers know better, but to the larger regional public, this is just another reason to "avoid" Cle-town (and I would bet that the PD picks up on this and publishes it tomorrow, front page).

In all fairness to Forbes, I don't think they grabbed these statistics from the air.  Probably didn't even do the research.  Besides, it's just another one of the top ten lists.  Who cares anyways.  I'm not going to live somewhere or not live somewhere because of how walkable or it has the number 5 most beautiful scenery.  I be going somewhere because it is where the job will be.

Sure, we UOers know better, but to the larger regional public, this is just another reason to "avoid" Cle-town (and I would bet that the PD picks up on this and publishes it tomorrow, front page).

Yep and the ignorant comments have started already:

 

“The city of Cleveland is more dangerous than Anbar province or Afghanistan. People are being shot on their front porches...those that have front porches left after the looting of the foreclosures. The Dems and the GOP are clueless and corrupt. To all Clevelanders: RUN FORREST,RUN!”

The number of people leaving the region does not supprise me, as during the last recession the region lost 80,000 manufacturing jobs.  These jobs haven't been replaced as quickly as they left. 

 

I just hate how the regional public loves to eat this sh%t up. 

In all fairness to Forbes, I don't think they grabbed these statistics from the air.  Probably didn't even do the research.  Besides, it's just another one of the top ten lists.  Who cares anyways.  I'm not going to live somewhere or not live somewhere because of how walkable or it has the number 5 most beautiful scenery.  I be going somewhere because it is where the job will be.

 

Trust me.  Forbes is a joke!

The number of people leaving the region does not supprise me, as during the last recession the region lost 80,000 manufacturing jobs.  These jobs haven't been replaced as quickly as they left. 

 

I just hate how the regional public loves to eat this sh%t up. 

 

And at the same time we NEVER here, how Cleveland has emerged as a white collar city and now have more white collar jobs coming online than ever before.

 

Please note.  We have plenty of high paying, technical and skilled jobs in Cleveland.  We just dont have a pool/workforce large enough to support the current job vacancy's or jobs coming on line.

 

My questions:  Those leaving are they middle income unskilled labor or white collar workers?  Are they leaving Cleveland City proper or just relocating to the suburbs.

 

I can spin this a thousand ways.......

Our region has such a rich blue collar history that it's no wonder we see these types of responses/attitudes towards news like this.  This is pure ignorance.  So many people have lived such a simple, tasked-oriented lifestyle, that they have not the slightest clue about what's going on outside of their little world.  I hope this isn't coming across as a strong stereotype but the meat and potatoes, Muni Stadium Browns taste still lingers in a lot of people here--probably most of those who post on Cle.com  A lack of education and experiences with different people and different places is the number one reason we see such gut-renching responses on that embarrassing website.  The mills and plants may be closed their doors but it won't be until that generation passes that we may see a signifcant shift in the attitude across NEO. 

 

 

yeah MTS, I always wonder who is leaving.  how many uneducated people make up one educated, contributing citizen of the city (and by educated I mean college degree). I'd trade 1 college graduate for 10 highschool drop outs.  1 graduate has a larger network of people-people who may visit the city and even people who may eventually invest in the city.  As miniscule as it may be, 3 friends visiting CLE for the weekend and spending $$$ in Tremont/OC/downtown is important to this turnaround.

wow... Forbes hits a new low with this ranking...

This may be one of the dumbest rankings I've ever seen. What were the criteria? I'm tired of reading these “best and worst" of rankings every time I open yahoo, cnn or msnbc.com. These rankings are compiled by some dumb journalist who did ten minutes of research. These rankings are made for someone with an attention span of 30 seconds. For the most part, they are inaccurate and silly. If the idiot who wrote this piece googled Cleveland, he/she would have come across several articles describing the mass amount of investment in the city. Finally, anyone who thinks Cleveland is a dangerous as Afghanistan is an idiot. To date, there have been 60 homicides in the city. That is less than eight a month. After comments like this, I now know why GWB was reelected. 

 

This hit the news in Dayton (yay, we made a top ten list!),  and you really need to check out the comments section to the article.

 

Forbe"

Dayton one of fastest dying citys

 

Then quite a bit of discussion at some local forums.

 

(this is a well timed article as a local IT firm is moving a bunch of back-office jobs to the suburbs).

 

The reality of this, based on my own research, posted here and here, is that the core county of the Dayton metro area (there are five counties in all) is, or was,losing jobs and people.

 

Two suburban/exurban counties are doing better, but the net effect is decline , if not stagnation, as this metro area sheds auto industry work.

 

Coming out on the other side this metro area will be smaller, but more economically diversified, and more tied to the defense sector.

 

 

 

 

I would like to know how Forbes came up with that local or metro GDP number, how they calcualted that.

 

I trust this Forbes ranking as much as 06' rating Cincinnati having the best night life out of all the cities in the U.S.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/3/06singles_Best-Cities-For-Singles_NightLifeRank.html

 

Also look how challenging a census could dramatically help. Cincinnati was ranked as the fastest declining population in the U.S. just 3 years ago. If Cleveland challenged the results and we got our true population numbers then we wouldn't be on any of these lists.

Well the fortunate thing for a lot of these cities are they are at the bottom of the curve, so losses have slowed... at least with Detroit and few others on that list.  Consider how Chicago lost a million people like Detroit did in the past 40 years, and now Chicago is growing.

Forbes' crunches numbers. Core statistics. Nothing else. That's how they produce the top-ten/twenty/etc. lists, and it is never very in depth for this very reason.

Well the fortunate thing for a lot of these cities are they are at the bottom of the curve, so losses have slowed... at least with Detroit and few others on that list.  Consider how Chicago lost a million people like Detroit did in the past 40 years, and now Chicago is growing.

 

Exactly. Look how many people wish they had bought property at the right time in near west and near north neighborhoods or Cabrini Green. Judging by lists like these, it would turn away potential investors who are forced to view these cities as a neverending downward spiral, instead of recognizing the cycle and potential. In Chicago, I think what helped was how agressive and demolition-happy mayor Daly's public policies have been. You improve cities by catering to upscale developers. The thing that makes me pessimistic about Detroit is that they don't have much of a tax base to work with and invest in themselves; I believe Cleveland has more upscale housing inside the city, meaning more tax money is available for subsidies and more likely to bounce back. It would require kicking a lot of poor people out on their @ss and dispersing them but that's how you get things done if you wanna be real about it.

The idea of a dying city is kind of intriguing.  Thats why I've watched the stats on Y-town for several years.  I don't think it can fall much further in population.  They had a dying industy that they totally relied on and it finally died. They now are more or less tied to Lordstown GM plant which is doing well.  There's such a small population left that they definitely make the best of it.  Whats nice about Y-town is the people are pretty gregarious.  They barely have chain restaurants like you see dominating other cities.  I doubt they even have a Max and Ermas in Y-town. I just checked and chains are pretty much out in the suburbs of Boardman and Niles.  That means the neighborhood mom and pops are doing ok which gives a place like Y-town serious character. Its pretty annoying going to a place like Columbus or Denver and the restaurant options are 70-80+% chains.  So Y-town isn't dying, dwindling yes but I think they've reached their bottom and will stay a smallish city. 

 

The idea of a dying city is kind of intriguing. Thats why I've watched the stats on Y-town for several years. I don't think it can fall much further in population. They had a dying industy that they totally relied on and it finally died. They now are more or less tied to Lordstown GM plant which is doing well. There's such a small population left that they definitely make the best of it. Whats nice about Y-town is the people are pretty gregarious. They barely have chain restaurants like you see dominating other cities. I doubt they even have a Max and Ermas in Y-town. I just checked and chains are pretty much out in the suburbs of Boardman and Niles. That means the neighborhood mom and pops are doing ok which gives a place like Y-town serious character. Its pretty annoying going to a place like Columbus or Denver and the restaurant options are 70-80+% chains. So Y-town isn't dying, dwindling yes but I think they've reached their bottom and will stay a smallish city.

 

 

I can appreciate Mom and Pop places but the best Mom and Pop places are the ones that can actually compete with chains. Chains overall offer better service and products at reasonable prices which is why they expand. A city almost entirely comprised of Greasy Spoons is not a good sign in my opinion because it means that chains aren't considering the area for a reason.

 

Columbus has a lot of chains, yes, but there are a lot of small chains. By that, I mean, upscale restaurants that have their own individual character but are under a larger corporation that operates maybe 4-6 restaurants. It means they are very competative with larger chains like Max and Ermas (not the best example considering they are filing for bankruptcy) yet each restaurant still has it's own character.

 

Sorry for the rant; I just can't believe you're saying Youngstown has better dining options than Columbus.

Why does it seem that Cleveland rolls over on these lists?  Just in this list Youngstown, and Dayton are outraged by this, while it seems we embrace it as a way to make suburbanites say I'm glad I left.  Just like with Cincinnatti challenging the census numbers why is our local government or Visitors bureau not fighting against this crap?

Even though the list is bogus, it's still hurtful

I trust this Forbes ranking as much as 06' rating Cincinnati having the best night life out of all the cities in the U.S.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/3/06singles_Best-Cities-For-Singles_NightLifeRank.html

 

Also look how challenging a census could dramatically help. Cincinnati was ranked as the fastest declining population in the U.S. just 3 years ago. If Cleveland challenged the results and we got our true population numbers then we wouldn't be on any of these lists.

 

I don't understand why it is that some people aren't able to accept the fact that Cincinnati is improving itself...or that Cincinnati has always been a stable place.  The Cincinnati metro sees steady population and job growth, the city itself is reversing population trends that used to show decline.  Whether you believe the numbers or not, you can notice a clear difference from the streets.

 

Sure we challenged our population numbers, but a challenge from Cincinnati is more believable than from Cleveland.  People tend to follow jobs and when jobs are flowing out of your region like the great flood, then odds are the people are going too.

 

I'm not happy that Cleveland, Dayton, or whoever is getting pissed on, again, but after awhile it is healthy to start admitting where your city/region need to start improving.  If there is one thing we know for sure from surveys/rankings like these...it is that places like Cleveland, Detroit, Dayton, etc have terrible perception problems on a national scale.

Why does it seem that Cleveland rolls over on these lists?  Just in this list Youngstown, and Dayton are outraged by this, while it seems we embrace it as a way to make suburbanites say I'm glad I left.  Just like with Cincinnatti challenging the census numbers why is our local government or Visitors bureau not fighting against this crap?

 

I rather hope that nobody in Cleveland addresses the Forbes piece, since it would give credence to the so-called analysis.  It's not on par with challenging census figures, which actually has an impact on federal budget management and programming.

 

Having the news media or local officials get outraged by a bunch of cherry-picked figures and gross generalizations packaged in a ranking better suited for the pages of Men's Health helps nobody.

Uncle Rando -

 

Nobody is trying to discount Cincinnati's improvement. I think some of us are tired of these blanket statements about our region. I think many things are overlooked when we talk about industrial areas like Cleveland and Dayton. The jobs that are "flowing out like the great flood" are primarily manufacturing jobs. None of these rankings or surveys takes into the account the service jobs that are being created in these regions, and the shift from blue to white collar jobs. The problem is that service jobs are not replacing the old manufacturing jobs fast enough. I know for a fact the Cleveland's economy is more diverse than ever. Cincinnati and Columbus were not large industrial centers like Cleveland, therefore, when the proverbial “stuff hit the fan” Cleveland had a larger hole to climb out of.

 

Well, you can not compare Cleveland and Columbus.  If you take Columbus's original city boundary lines from 1950, and get demographics from within it, it paints a pretty grim picture.  It really does.  In fact, original Columbus continues to lose population.  IIRC, I think it is somewhere around 215,000 today.  Correct me if I am wrong, but I believe the Polaris Mall area is part of inner city Columbus now.  Imagine throwing Shaker Heights, Fairview Park, Lakewood and Rocky River into Cleveland.  We would never make the top of a bad list.

 

Not that Columbus did anything wrong, in fact it probably was a good thing, but you can not compare the two things.  Obviously comparing Franklin County to Cuyahoga, it is still in favor of Franklin, but it is not like taking Columbus to Cleveland. 

Uncle Rando -

 

Nobody is trying to discount Cincinnati's improvement. I think some of us are tired of these blanket statements about our region. I think many things are overlooked when we talk about industrial areas like Cleveland and Dayton. The jobs that are "flowing out like the great flood" are primarily manufacturing jobs. None of these rankings or surveys takes into the account the service jobs that are being created in these regions, and the shift from blue to white collar jobs. The problem is that service jobs are not replacing the old manufacturing jobs fast enough. I know for a fact the Cleveland's economy is more diverse than ever. Cincinnati and Columbus were not large industrial centers like Cleveland, therefore, when the proverbial “stuff hit the fan” Cleveland had a larger hole to climb out of.

 

I agree, what everyone should take from worthless rankings such as these are their implications.  These things are constant PR nightmares for Cleveland.  Luckily Cincinnati is starting to dodge them, but Dayton and Cleveland have a real problem here.  We all could sit here all day long and debate whether or not places like Cleveland and Dayton are infact representative of these rankings...or we could start taking the necessary steps to address these issues (real or not) and correct them.

I think we are seeing some the necessary steps to correct these problems. Again, we have to realize the amount of industrial jobs Cleveland has lost over the last forty years. I recently wrote a paper of deindustrialization and its impact on Africa-American men. When I researched this topic, I began to realize the amount of good paying jobs that left NEO. Therefore, I'm not surprised with Cleveland's current economic picture. Think about, Cleveland has lost thousands of good-paying jobs over the last forty years. New jobs are not going to materialize out of thin air. It may take another 10-15 years to truly see a different region. It's no different than what the south experienced at the beginning of the industrial revolution (switching from an agarian economy). Already there are new emerging industries where Cleveland may see significant growth. I think the media has become so short-sighted. Consequently, we often overlook long-term trends.

Seriously, what could the editors hope to ACCOMPLISH by continually publishing these depressing lists?  Do they expect everyone in these cities to commit mass suicide or something?  I mean, what is the POINT of this kind of reporting?  It's not like people are going to read it and go ohhh, that Forbes magazine, they sure know what they're talking about, that's some interesting sh*t.  I mean WTF!

I trust this Forbes ranking as much as 06' rating Cincinnati having the best night life out of all the cities in the U.S.

http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/3/06singles_Best-Cities-For-Singles_NightLifeRank.html

 

Also look how challenging a census could dramatically help. Cincinnati was ranked as the fastest declining population in the U.S. just 3 years ago. If Cleveland challenged the results and we got our true population numbers then we wouldn't be on any of these lists.

 

I don't understand why it is that some people aren't able to accept the fact that Cincinnati is improving itself...or that Cincinnati has always been a stable place.  The Cincinnati metro sees steady population and job growth, the city itself is reversing population trends that used to show decline.  Whether you believe the numbers or not, you can notice a clear difference from the streets.

 

Sure we challenged our population numbers, but a challenge from Cincinnati is more believable than from Cleveland.  People tend to follow jobs and when jobs are flowing out of your region like the great flood, then odds are the people are going too.

 

I'm not happy that Cleveland, Dayton, or whoever is getting pissed on, again, but after awhile it is healthy to start admitting where your city/region need to start improving.  If there is one thing we know for sure from surveys/rankings like these...it is that places like Cleveland, Detroit, Dayton, etc have terrible perception problems on a national scale.

 

perception indeed. yet you seem to be forgetting something? on a national scale, cinicinnati has just as bad or even a worse reputation than those places listed. only just not due to rust belt economics like the others. i'm just sayin. if anything it's columbus that comes off unscathed here.

 

 

perception indeed. yet you seem to be forgetting something? on a national scale, cinicinnati has just as bad or even a worse reputation than those places listed. only just not due to rust belt economics like the others. i'm just sayin. if anything it's columbus that comes off unscathed here.

 

I disagree...most people I run into don't know anything about Cincinnati.  I'd rather that be the case than for them to think that we're the Worst _______ in America.  Of the people who do have some kind of perception it is usually one of the following: WKRP...do you remember that?, something about sports (Bengals, Bearcats, Reds), isn't Nick Lachey from there?, 2001 riots (very few people mention this), or some other random memory of a visit they had there.

 

The fact is that most people just don't care about Midwestern cities (sans Chicago).  The ones that do get a lot of national coverage are the ones receiving the negative press (unfortunately) like Cleveland and Detroit.  The cliche that all publicity is good publicity is a falsehood.

As someone who grew up around Dayton and now lives in Cincinnati, there is an unmistakable difference between the two cities.  Downtown Dayton is dirty, boring, dying and nobody really takes it seriously and anything good about the region is located around 675.  Cincinnati in general has a much more professional, big city feel to it that actually feels legit, whereas in Dayton it's completely fake.  Cincinnati's core is expanding rapidly with countless projects going right now or in the planning stages.

 

mrnyc - you say "if anything it's columbus that comes off unscathed here."  are you implying that in some way this list has hurt cincinnati?  that doesn't really make sense.  you talk about a national perception of cincinnati like it has something to do with this topic.  if, in fact, you're correct about cincinnati's national perception, i think it should be noted that its obviously changing since the city was left off of this list

Wait a second. Nobody was saying that this list hurt Cincinnati. The survey looked at raw numbers like population growth and job growth for the core city. It didn't take into account there is 4 billion dollars worth of investment in the city of Cleveland, a growing healthcare industry, third best hospital in the nation, growing downtown, and several other economic factors. It also didn't look at regional numbers. Forbes list is far from scientific, so this idea that a city on the list is definitely dying is absurd. This discussion should not be turned into a city vs. city competition. We all live in Ohio, and we have to deal with some very tough economic conditions. It just so happens some of the cities are suffering more than others.

I think in the future the Federal Government will steer more and more companies to the more depressed area's of the united states. Like steering more companies to the city of Cleveland or to the state of Mississippi. Of course the Government will give them incentives to do so. It's just my opinion.

I think one thing that lists like this do for me is highlight problems that need to be improved/resolved, which, in my opinion, is a good thing. Cleveland has problems. Every city does. Some more so than others. We know about these problems because publications like these won't let us forget them. My hope is that, instead of trying to debunk articles/lists/rankings like this, people start acknowledging the problems and coming up with ways to deal with them. I think this is finally beginning to happen because people are finally realizing we HAVE to. I hope this continues. It will take time, though.

 

But to say that Cleveland is dying is like crying "fire!" and pointing to a lit match as proof. I'd agree that we'd be dying if people just did nothing and accepted status quo and tried to live blindly on. My hope is that's not the case.

 

For those who see a city struggling with an economic transition as death, I say, who cares what they say? People have been saying that for years. Toughen up, sticks and stones and whatnot, and continue to do what needs to be done to fight for progress.

perception indeed. yet you seem to be forgetting something? on a national scale, cinicinnati has just as bad or even a worse reputation than those places listed. only just not due to rust belt economics like the others. i'm just sayin. if anything it's columbus that comes off unscathed here.

 

Agreed. In fact all people see is the "rust belt" and they lump most of the cities in OH, PA, MI, IN, IL, etc. all together.

But there are a lot of other ways to slant a story.  How about profiling these cities and the title/subject of the article be: America's Heartland: How Can We Save It? or something like that.  Not "DYING"

Cleveland is 212 years olds!  No one can tell me/us that Rome, Paris, Tokyo, Delhi, Cairo, etc. never had rough periods lasting decades.  We're going through this first wave of decline and we act like it's the end of the world.  God, if anything you would think we would know that a city is a living organism and it evolves.  Ok, the world's moving at a faster pace today but that doesn't mean we can throw in the towel.  Is this really what America is?  If anything, we're in a prime location to rebuild our city for the next wave.  Whether it's global warming, energy crisis, or national security, we're one of a few places in the country with the resources ready-or not too far out of our reach-to maintain a comfortable, efficient lifestyle. 

 

I'm just preaching to the choir here but I feel too often, the majority of people out there think Cleveland or the Rustbelt is this urban studies phenomenon.  We're so special and no one in history has ever dealt with a change of industries and decline in population.  yeah, ok...

 

 

I wonder what the circulation numbers for Forbes are these days. A quick search of google doesn't turn up any sites with circulation numbers (and change over time).

perception indeed. yet you seem to be forgetting something? on a national scale, cinicinnati has just as bad or even a worse reputation than those places listed. only just not due to rust belt economics like the others. i'm just sayin. if anything it's columbus that comes off unscathed here.

 

I disagree...most people I run into don't know anything about Cincinnati. I'd rather that be the case than for them to think that we're the Worst _______ in America. Of the people who do have some kind of perception it is usually one of the following: WKRP...do you remember that?, something about sports (Bengals, Bearcats, Reds), isn't Nick Lachey from there?, 2001 riots (very few people mention this), or some other random memory of a visit they had there.

 

The fact is that most people just don't care about Midwestern cities (sans Chicago). The ones that do get a lot of national coverage are the ones receiving the negative press (unfortunately) like Cleveland and Detroit. The cliche that all publicity is good publicity is a falsehood.

 

no, it's hardly a stealth city like say jacksonville. outsiders react. media coverage like this or not, cinci's national image suffers as greatly as a result of the riots as the others do as a result of their history of economic laziness. of course it's not that they recall specific events, it's the latent perceptions.

 

anyway i also disagree totally that people just don't care about the midwest in general. quite the opposite. the whole region is a media punching bag. not to mention for some reason ohio is derided more than ever lately on blogs and stuff.

 

 

I wonder what the circulation numbers for Forbes are these days. A quick search of google doesn't turn up any sites with circulation numbers (and change over time).

 

You can do a live chat with a librarian at cleveland public library's website; they would be able to get that data for you.  Librarians are geniuses.

Part of the problem with article like this is the intentional hyperbole used for circulation.  Of course the demographics of the cities mentioned has and is changing as they progress from hard core industrial centers and feel their way to a different economic base.  That doesn't mean death in my book, mearly a transitional time.  Lists are just lists.  The very unfortunate part is that some bad corporate planners put way too much stock into the perception a city generates rather than the reality and don't want to do the leg work to find out the truth.

 

A group of my friends were scheduled to go to a convention this year in Cleveland, and more than 1/2 wouldn't go simply because the convention was being held in Cleveland!  They refused to sped the money to go to a place they thought would automatically be boring and ugly.  No pleading from me would help, because I, being from Ohio, was used to the ugliness and boredom!  Of course, my pointing out how f#cking shallow and narrow minded they all were didn't help the cause. 

 

I wonder what the circulation numbers for Forbes are these days. A quick search of google doesn't turn up any sites with circulation numbers (and change over time).

 

You can do a live chat with a librarian at cleveland public library's website; they would be able to get that data for you.  Librarians are geniuses.

It's hard to tell because magazine use industry ratings such as the ABC, PIB and MRI. 

 

I can tell you this as of July 8, 2008

Monthly Rate Card Revenue & Pages by Magazine Titles

 

FORBES

2008 - $97,389,811

2007 - $104,403,918

change - -6.7

 

Page 2008 - 802.37

Page 2007 - 914.65

change -  -12.3

Cle2032 -

 

I totally agree with you. We are experiencing a transition period that began roughly 40 years ago. So to say the city is dying is a little premature. I guess we have been dying for over a generation now, according to Forbes' standard. If we look at the city's entire history, more often than not, Cleveland has experienced decent growth. Unfortunately, for us, we are living probably the worst downturn the city has seen, but the city still has a lot to offer. I find it hard to believe Cleveland and Detroit are just going to fall off the map. Both regions are too large and have too many resources. I'm not trying to be cheesy or overly pessimistic. I'm just going on history and long term trends. I'm not saying we will see 900,000 people within the city, but we may city a more diverse and vibrant Cleveland in the future.

 

Ugh...all Ohio cities are "dying" except in some regards Columbus. Long term population growth, economic growth, etc. are all weaker in Ohio cities/regions than in a nation as a whole. Columbus, at times, meets the national averages.

 

You'd think in Cincinnati, with all the economic diversity that it has, people would question why growth is so anemic in that region instead of proclaiming its downtown as "booming". (BTW, I see the Cincy picture threads and unless 75 cranes are hiding behind Carew, I don't think it's quite on the level of "booming" yet by national standards.)

 

Lets not go off the deep end here. Cincy could have made the #10 if it hadn't challenged the Census so I can see why people in Cleveland are frustrated by the lack of action or response on this issue by their government.

(BTW, I see the Cincy picture threads and unless 75 cranes are hiding behind Carew, I don't think it's quite on the level of "booming" yet by national standards.)

 

Older cities' downtowns (such as Cincinnati or Cleveland) can often times boom without a lot of new construction.  Many older structures which had fallen out of use may be rehabbed and reclaimed.  Just because you don't see cranes doesn't always mean there isn't growth.

 

^Very good point!

(BTW, I see the Cincy picture threads and unless 75 cranes are hiding behind Carew, I don't think it's quite on the level of "booming" yet by national standards.)

 

Older cities' downtowns (such as Cincinnati or Cleveland) can often times boom without a lot of new construction. Many older structures which had fallen out of use may be rehabbed and reclaimed. Just because you don't see cranes doesn't always mean there isn't growth.

 

 

Downtown Cleveland is filled with construction and building activity.  Stevie Wonder could have come here and walked through downtown and not declared it a dying city.

"Luckily Cincinnati is starting to dodge them, but Dayton and Cleveland have a real problem here."

 

I disagree, from what I've seen Cincinnatti has been hit by more of these types of polls than it has dodged.

(BTW, I see the Cincy picture threads and unless 75 cranes are hiding behind Carew, I don't think it's quite on the level of "booming" yet by national standards.)

 

Older cities' downtowns (such as Cincinnati or Cleveland) can often times boom without a lot of new construction.  Many older structures which had fallen out of use may be rehabbed and reclaimed.  Just because you don't see cranes doesn't always mean there isn't growth.

 

 

DC has an "old" downtown yet lots of large scale construction.  IF DC isn't your taste of old, I'd offer up Boston. I'm not picking on Cleveland or Cincy at all and I'm not saying either city isn't seeing downtown growth, I'm just saying that the definition of "booming" in one region might be different than in another.

 

 

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