A couple of items, magazines have been doing these lists for years. Harpers was doing them in the 60s and 70s. I imagine the Romans and the Greeks were doing it two thousand years ago. Rome was bad-mouthing Ravenna and that upstart Constantinople.

 

While it is clear that Cleveland is in a moment of transition (and so was Boston - 40 years ago and Philly (well for a long time) and D.C. until the 90s and NYC until the mid-90s), it is important that cities can die - or at least stop being relevant to national politics and the economy. Good places to look include most cities in New Jersey, large swathes of Massachusetts and Connecticut, big parts of W. NY.

 

I'd argue that Detroit (as the Detroit of roughly 1900-1980ish) is dead. Can there be a successful city where Detroit was yes, but it will be so different that the change to whatever comes next will far outweigh the continuities. Pittsburg is further along but is a good example. Northern England and the Ruhr valley are other places to look for transitioning cities (sometimes successful, often not).

 

As to Cincy, it tends to be counter-cyclical. It has generally caught up when every else crashed, but fell behind when everyone was booming. Cbus seems to be getting old fast, especially the post-war neighborhoods.

^^"Booming Dubai or Miami" ......No!     

 

But, I believe at least all Ohio cities main urban cores are (starting to) growing like they haven't in the past 50-60 years.    It's only a matter of time in "today's" world before Cleveland turns the corner. 

^ yeah, but those two cities didn't have outright abandonment downtown on the scale of the rust belt cities either. or at least it was only for a short period and reversed much longer ago.

 

fwiw i did just recently see a lot of all new residential construction circling around downtown in columbus, if not dayton or akron (except ua campus). it was noticeable to me anyway.

 

I would like someone to make an honest assessment of what they have experienced on the ground in the various cities.  Cincinnati's downtown is booming by Midwest standards, Cbus does seem solid growth (population & job) in the city on regionally, Cincinnati sees steady population/job growth regionally as well...and is seeing a reversal in declining trends without the challenges.

 

I don't believe that Cleveland is as bad as what it is often made out to be, but lets be honest with ourselves and recognize that a few glitzy development projects doesn't equate to an area's vitality.  Cleveland is undeniably experiencing very difficult times.  I think if you were to make an honest assessment (not based on reports, stats, etc) I think most people would concede that Cleveland is in some bad shape.

 

I tend to think that Cbus and Cincy are in the best shape compared to the rest of the state (not saying much).  What matters most is that Ohio/Midwest suffer from a national feeling of apathy.  When something is covered, in the area, it is almost certainly something negative.  No one down South cares about the Midwest, and the two coasts view us as 'flyover' states.

 

no, it's hardly a stealth city like say jacksonville. outsiders react. media coverage like this or not, cinci's national image suffers as greatly as a result of the riots as the others do as a result of their history of economic laziness.

 

I talk about Cincy ALL THE TIME.  When I'm on the road, and mention Cincy I have never heard the riots as someones first thought of the city.  NOT ONCE.  People just don't care, the riots have caused much more negative local coverage than they have nationally when viewed over time.  I find it VERY hard to believe that you mention Cincinnati, and people say 2001 race riots.  That's just not reality.

I would like someone to make an honest assessment of what they have experienced on the ground in the various cities. Cincinnati's downtown is booming by Midwest standards, Cbus does seem solid growth (population & job) in the city on regionally, Cincinnati sees steady population/job growth regionally as well...and is seeing a reversal in declining trends without the challenges.

 

I don't believe that Cleveland is as bad as what it is often made out to be, but lets be honest with ourselves and recognize that a few glitzy development projects doesn't equate to an area's vitality. Cleveland is undeniably experiencing very difficult times. I think if you were to make an honest assessment (not based on reports, stats, etc) I think most people would concede that Cleveland is in some bad shape.

 

I tend to think that Cbus and Cincy are in the best shape compared to the rest of the state (not saying much). What matters most is that Ohio/Midwest suffer from a national feeling of apathy. When something is covered, in the area, it is almost certainly something negative. No one down South cares about the Midwest, and the two coasts view us as 'flyover' states.

 

no, it's hardly a stealth city like say jacksonville. outsiders react. media coverage like this or not, cinci's national image suffers as greatly as a result of the riots as the others do as a result of their history of economic laziness.

 

I talk about Cincy ALL THE TIME. When I'm on the road, and mention Cincy I have never heard the riots as someones first thought of the city. NOT ONCE. People just don't care, the riots have caused much more negative local coverage than they have nationally when viewed over time. I find it VERY hard to believe that you mention Cincinnati, and people say 2001 race riots. That's just not reality.

 

no offense rando.  you don't have any idea what you're talking about in regards to what's going on in cleveland.  none.

Cincinnati's downtown is booming by midwest standards??? Really. What are these standards of which you speak. Also, I wouldn't categorize the developments going on in Cleveland (and there are many to speak of) as glitzy development projects.

I don't believe that Cleveland is as bad as what it is often made out to be, but lets be honest with ourselves and recognize that a few glitzy development projects doesn't equate to an area's vitality. 

 

I agree with this. I think "glitzy development projects" don't amount to much if deeper, foundational things aren't being strengthened and improved. I think they're an important aspect to a city's vitality, but if that's ALL we're using as a yardstick, then we're in big trouble.

well then jpop you're wrong too.  If you think what is happening in cleveland are a "few glitzy development projects" you're showing how out of touch you are with what is currently happening in the city.

well then jpop you're wrong too.  If you think what is happening in cleveland are a "few glitzy development projects" you're showing how out of touch you are with what is currently happening in the city.

 

No. That's not what I'm saying at all. I feel like you didn't read my whole post. Nowhere did I say that that's what I believed was happening.

 

But I agree with UncleRando's point .. that if that is all we're using as a yardstick, then I think we're in trouble. Big time.

 

I think that so many times I, at least, can get so caught up in the excitement of development projects being announced .. but I forget that that isn't all there is to a city's life and growth. There's much more. I, for one, want things beyond the outer, more physical signs (such as cranes and development) to improve.

who doesn't but i also want a vibrant city... it is getting to the point in cleveland (downtown anyway) that it's practically surprising to walk by a building that ISN'T being rehabbed.  More people brings in more business.  More people also = more voters, which incites change.

Da Mayor comes thru once again.

 

I think folks equate high rise building construction with vibrancy and development.

 

 

I would like someone to make an honest assessment of what they have experienced on the ground in the various cities. Cincinnati's downtown is booming by Midwest standards, Cbus does seem solid growth (population & job) in the city on regionally, Cincinnati sees steady population/job growth regionally as well...and is seeing a reversal in declining trends without the challenges.

 

I don't believe that Cleveland is as bad as what it is often made out to be, but lets be honest with ourselves and recognize that a few glitzy development projects doesn't equate to an area's vitality. Cleveland is undeniably experiencing very difficult times. I think if you were to make an honest assessment (not based on reports, stats, etc) I think most people would concede that Cleveland is in some bad shape.

 

I tend to think that Cbus and Cincy are in the best shape compared to the rest of the state (not saying much). What matters most is that Ohio/Midwest suffer from a national feeling of apathy. When something is covered, in the area, it is almost certainly something negative. No one down South cares about the Midwest, and the two coasts view us as 'flyover' states.

 

no, it's hardly a stealth city like say jacksonville. outsiders react. media coverage like this or not, cinci's national image suffers as greatly as a result of the riots as the others do as a result of their history of economic laziness.

 

I talk about Cincy ALL THE TIME. When I'm on the road, and mention Cincy I have never heard the riots as someones first thought of the city. NOT ONCE. People just don't care, the riots have caused much more negative local coverage than they have nationally when viewed over time. I find it VERY hard to believe that you mention Cincinnati, and people say 2001 race riots. That's just not reality.

 

no, the immediate national perception of cinci is a result of a combination of stagnation, the riots, mapplethorpe, marge shott & all that as a culmination over time, not any one thing. that's what a general perception becomes, it's not any one incident or reality.

 

sports aside, when talking ohio basically for negative stuff i find cleveland gets the old "burning river, ha ha" or "it sucks!" or the "it's cheap to live, but i'd never get a job there" rap and cinci gets the "oh, i could never live there" rap. and columbus often getting a "huh?" and a shrug doesn't exactly help either. the state could pick it up in the pr dept.

 

 

^Rando, you equating the fact that Cincinnatti wasn't on this list to being so much more ahead of Cleveland in terms of development is really getting annoying, and is untrue. 

"From the ground," nearly every building in Downtown Cleveland that hasn't already been rehabbed in the past 10 years, is planning to be or is in the process of being renovated as we speak.  Our downtown population is the second fastest growing in the Midwest.  So if Cincy is "booming by Midwest standards" Cleveland is a nuclear attack.

I don't make it down to southern ohio very often to gauge what is going on down there, and I doubt you make it up here on a consistent basis to know what the hell is going on, so I'm not sure why you're continuing on and on.

Congrats, you missed one negative list.  There's always, the Most Segregated Cities List, the Outside of the Largest 50 US cities List, top 10 poorest cities, whatever.  Using your math of taking info from these lists, Cin has just as many problems as Cleveland, Dayton, and Youngstown.

well then jpop you're wrong too.  If you think what is happening in cleveland are a "few glitzy development projects" you're showing how out of touch you are with what is currently happening in the city.

 

When I visited Cleveland (just a couple of months ago) and got a pretty extensive tour, of the good and bad, I saw some activity going on.  I also saw large-scale abandonment that I haven't seen anywhere else in Ohio.  I also saw poorly maintained infrastructure that I haven't seen anywhere else in Ohio.

 

Downtown Cleveland is doing ok, but what downtown isn't showing signs of improvement across America?  Please illustrate how this progress is outpacing the progress being made everywhere else.  The inner-city neighborhoods in Cleveland are in VERY bad shape...and the neighborhoods people boast about (which are wonderful) are not in the City (which is slightly depressing).

 

I'm not trying to beat down Cleveland here, I'm just trying to make a point that UO forumers seem to put the blinders on.  I recognize that Cincy isn't the creme de le creme, but from my experience it is in a heck of a lot better shape than Cleveland.  I'm not trying to insult, just stating what I noticed.  Cleveland could be an amazing place and is improving itself in many ways.  I'm just not sure if enough is big done to reverse the MAJOR trends set in motion decades ago.  The problems faced in other cities (around the country) are much easier to remedy than the issues facing Cleveland and many Midwestern cities.

 

It is a problem that Cleveland is replacing manufacturing jobs with service jobs, this is a major national issue which is embodied in places like Cleveland.  The continued deterioration of the public school system is a major issue, the crime/perceived safety is a major issue, the rapid population decline is a major issue.

 

So lets not compare Ohio cities vs. Ohio cities...how is a place like Cleveland, Dayton, Cincinnati, or Columbus stacking up against places like Atlanta, San Diego, Portland, Denver, Seattle, Baltimore, or Charlotte?  I think that we're not doing too well...and I think it's time we wake up and smell the coffee.  Once we can admit we have problems then we can begin to fix them.  Until then we'll just be continually fighting the bad press that comes out on a quarterly basis.

Da Mayor comes thru once again.

 

I think folks equate high rise building construction with vibrancy and development.

 

 

 

I would argue that that's not necessarily the case.

 

How are the lower/middle class going to benefit from this development? What is being done to improve schools, crime, general quality of life, etc?

 

I'm not saying that swanky development projects don't have a hand in showing people that things are happening. I think they totally do. But there's far more that needs to be done to attract people, because new development projects, in a sense, can only go skin deep .. if that's all they are.

...and we've devolved into a Cincinnati-Cleveland pissing match.

 

Please: let's stay in topic.

 

My two bits: when will Forbes publish a list of America's 10 most sustainable metros? Probably never. That type of article would be useless for pumping up a "hot new" area or validating Middle-America's flight from its urban centers.

well then jpop you're wrong too.  If you think what is happening in cleveland are a "few glitzy development projects" you're showing how out of touch you are with what is currently happening in the city.

 

When I visited Cleveland (just a couple of months ago) and got a pretty extensive tour, of the good and bad, I saw some activity going on.  I also saw large-scale abandonment that I haven't seen anywhere else in Ohio.  I also saw poorly maintained infrastructure that I haven't seen anywhere else in Ohio.

 

Downtown Cleveland is doing ok, but what downtown isn't showing signs of improvement across America?  Please illustrate how this progress is outpacing the progress being made everywhere else.  The inner-city neighborhoods in Cleveland are in VERY bad shape...and the neighborhoods people boast about (which are wonderful) are not in the City (which is slightly depressing).

 

I'm not trying to beat down Cleveland here, I'm just trying to make a point that UO forumers seem to put the blinders on.  I recognize that Cincy isn't the creme de le creme, but from my experience it is in a heck of a lot better shape than Cleveland.  I'm not trying to insult, just stating what I noticed.  Cleveland could be an amazing place and is improving itself in many ways.  I'm just not sure if enough is big done to reverse the MAJOR trends set in motion decades ago.  The problems faced in other cities (around the country) are much easier to remedy than the issues facing Cleveland and many Midwestern cities.

 

It is a problem that Cleveland is replacing manufacturing jobs with service jobs, this is a major national issue which is embodied in places like Cleveland.  The continued deterioration of the public school system is a major issue, the crime/perceived safety is a major issue, the rapid population decline is a major issue.

 

So lets not compare Ohio cities vs. Ohio cities...how is a place like Cleveland, Dayton, Cincinnati, or Columbus stacking up against places like Atlanta, San Diego, Portland, Denver, Seattle, Baltimore, or Charlotte?  I think that we're not doing too well...and I think it's time we wake up and smell the coffee.  Once we can admit we have problems then we can begin to fix them.  Until then we'll just be continually fighting the bad press that comes out on a quarterly basis.

 

I agree. Wholeheartedly.

Edit, nevermind. The thread has been modified.

 

I agree with KOOW, they really need to do a "sustainable cities" list.

"What is being done to improve schools, crime, general quality of life, etc?"

 

Nothing. Don't you read the PD? :lol:

 

"The inner-city neighborhoods in Cleveland are in VERY bad shape..."

"and the neighborhoods people boast about (which are wonderful) are not in the City (which is slightly depressing)."

 

:wtf:

 

 

mrnyc is pretty right on there.  It is easy for Forbes to do research on a state that constantly is in bad light in the media (Ohio and Michigan).  In an election year, it will be very common to print anything bad about rust belt states that are also swing states.  It was kind of funny how the article didn't even rank the top ten.  I don't know much about Altoona, Erie, Johnstown, Terre Haute, etc, etc, but I think they could have also easily been put in there before Springfield, Mass.  So, in short, pound in our head a little harder Forbes that we are in need of change....

This thread needs to be closed before it gets worse. Forbes causes nothing but trouble around here.

 

 

 

or "pruned".  (Cue the HBIC)

 

We're rehasing old information comparing cities and not addressing the real issue.

 

It's tired and old.  We're above that here on UO.

^Rando, you equating the fact that Cincinnatti wasn't on this list to being so much more ahead of Cleveland in terms of development is really getting annoying, and is untrue.

 

It's the improvement in Cincinnati's public school system, the major reduction in crime, and the inner-city neighborhood turnarounds that I equate to Cincy's success.

 

I don't make it down to southern ohio very often to gauge what is going on down there, and I doubt you make it up here on a consistent basis to know what the hell is going on, so I'm not sure why you're continuing on and on.

 

I was just there and commented on what I saw.  I expected to see a better city (in terms of progress) based on forumers comments.  I didn't want to be disappointed, but I was.

 

Congrats, you missed one negative list.  There's always, the Most Segregated Cities List, the Outside of the Largest 50 US cities List, top 10 poorest cities, whatever.  Using your math of taking info from these lists, Cin has just as many problems as Cleveland, Dayton, and Youngstown.

 

Yes Cincinnati is still very segregated, it can't seem to get over the hump and experience growth any higher than the minimal levels its seen for years, Cincinnati also has a conservative stigma to get past, and is known for far more negative things than positive.

 

Cincinnati has more than its fair share of issues, I admit that, but  I just don't ever see the Cleveland forumers admitting when there is a major problem with their own city.  Hell look at the stuff Jeffery posts about Dayton, it's not bad to admit when there are things going bad.  But it is bad to ignore or deny that they may be occurring altogether.

"What is being done to improve schools, crime, general quality of life, etc?"

 

Nothing. Don't you read the PD? :lol:

 

That was more a rhetorical question, on my part.

 

I mean, aren't you guys concerned about these things? Don't these things mean more to you than some new building project? If not, then no wonder Cleveland is seen as "dying". Because these are the things that make up the fabric of a city, not ONLY new projects (and I'm not discounting them).

by the way... maybe the flats and the avenue district are glitzy... whatever, it's about 800 million dollars worth of investments and... they're bringing in residents.

 

the euclid corridor project, 668 euclid avenue, east 4th street, the john hartness brown buildings, the CSU student center, the CSU college of education, the new CSU dormotories, the CSU collegetown project, the east 12th street rehabilitation project, winton manor, prospect place apartments, joshua hall, 1303 prospect place, the hannah theatre renovation, the ameritrust project,  the chester commons redevelopment, the parkview redevelopment, and the district of design aren't "glitzy".  They are core projects completely redefining downtown and it's building stock.  Quite frankly if you don't live here I don't want to hear about your "perspective" because you aren't here to see the trasnformation taking place, the ludicrous growth in amount of younger people you see walking the streets down here every single day.  The pace at which redevelopment is taking place here is staggering.

This whole topic has gotten out of hand, and it started pretty much with my comments.  It is unfortunate that these discussions take place on an internet forum where every word is translated literally and precisely as to how they are defined in the dictionary...not by real expressions or whatever else.

 

I just get tired of these polls being posted, and seemingly every damn Cleveland forumer (or whatever city the rating is about...sans Dayton) seems to come out of the woodwork and do their best to dismiss the rating, discredit the entity who did it, or whatever else.  I just don't see why Clevelanders...and Midwesterners can't seem to understand that their national standing is slipping rapidly.  And all we seem to do is bitch/complain rather than do anything substantial.

We get enough of the negatives from cleveland.com, thanks for the tip though.

And with that, we ALL take a deep breath and walk away from the computer for a few minutes.

Rando, I understand your comment about not being able to sit down face to face and have expressions tell the story.  However, I think it was about your comment about Cincy "booming".  I was down there a month ago similar to the way you were in Cleveland, and I wa not one bit overwhelmed by the activity in Cincy at the time.  Nor am I overwhelmed by Clevelands at the time.  And there is no standard for midwest booming.  It is no different than southern or western booming.  What Cincy and Cleveland are seeing right now is nothing in comparison to the building booms of the early 80's through early 90's when cranes were always in the sky.  Nor is population growth of a percent or two considered booming.  I think that is where this discussion got a little heated by the Cincy booming comment.  No Ohio city is booming roght now.  What you are seeing right now are not times that you will look back on and go, "man, remember the late 2000's, those where the days".

UR, you really shouldn't post about something you know nothing about (which has become painfully obvious in this thread).  I usually respect your posts, but you've been way off target in this thread.  There are numerous posts I've read where Clevelanders discuss our city's problems.  You don't see them b/c you don't participate in the Cleveland threads like we do, just like I don't have much of an idea of what goes on and who posts what in the SW Ohio threads.

 

So really you should just learn when to stop.

Okay, friends. Can we kiss and make up or will a half-baked Forbes article result in yet another trashed UO discussion thread?

 

I thought so.

 

Let's proceed, all civil-like.

All I can say, is consider the source!

Let me make this clear.  I am critical of every city that I've ever been to.  If you notice my photo threads I examine the places I've been to and comment on what is done well and what isn't.  I mention where things could be improved and what things I fear for in the future.

 

These are not things I just do for Cleveland, so don't take it personally.  I even do it with *gasp* my hometown Cincinnati.  Those who know me, know this.  Those who don't I apologize for coming across like I was trying to bash your beloved Cleveland.

 

I have high expectations for cities...and even higher for the ones I love (i.e. Ohio's cities).  I see things that are great in Cleveland (i.e. arts, institutions, lakefront, new developments, architecture, etc), but at the same time I see equally bad things that need to be improved upon (i.e. public schools, crime, job creation, etc).  Some of these things Cincy shares as something it needs to improve upon...others are not (and vice versa).

 

I'm sorry for turning the whole thread into yet another pissing match between Cincy and Cleveland.  That was certainly not my intention even though it may look that way.  These rankings/ratings are worthless...but how others view us is important.  So whether these assertions are true or not, they should still be important to all of us who love and call Ohio home.

UR.  Living in one city and visiting are two different things.

 

For example, you're perspective of Atlanta or your perspective of crime in Cleveland. 

 

Without living in the region how can you have an accurate view on that cities crime.  Thats like me saying that the job market in Cinci sucks, yet I'm not an analyst or a job candidate in that market.

 

I think this thread should be closed.  The article and magazine were editorial irresponsible.

Anything and everything can die but put a little maintenance here and there. Then it can survive and prosper.

All I can say, is consider the source!

 

i'll say! do i have to pull out my "i had beers with forbes writers one night" anectdote again when you bet i asked about the lists? basically, yes they always have a source, but yes they often just make it up as well. folks, it's not a poll, it's not a ranking and it's most certainly not a juried research journal. it's a magazine article. a magazine who's culture was founded by a man whom i might add was very, um, flamboyant. i even looked up the author to see if i might recognize him. i didn't, but i did see is is a journeyman writer who also writes a lot of other fluff.

 

now this is not to be taken as we are ignoring cleveland and ohio's and the midwest's rust belt problems. that's for dozens of other wonderful and detailed uo threads. it's just as mts said....look at the source. and the motivation.