4 minutes ago, Clevecane said:

 

This may be a contender for dumbest comment ever on these esteemed threads. Have you ever heard of the fairly simple concepts of “eyes on the street” and “broken window theory?” 

 

The symptoms you outline are the direct impact of blackout windows, honkey tubes, and lack of retail. 

 

And yes, I work in Terminal Tower and walk this area constantly. 

You should say of that posters prior posts if you want a good laugh

13 minutes ago, WindyBuckeye said:

You should say of that posters prior posts if you want a good laugh

I am at the point where I don't believe a word this guy (or girl if that is the case) says.

 

I now feel like an idiot for once chastising a poster for calling him/her a troll.

If that stretch of Ontario was more brightly lit, with more retail and foot traffic, it would not attract panhandlers, drug dealers and other undesirable denizens. The reason they're attracted to that area is because it is dark, isolated and desolate. I don't see another skybridge over the area doing anything but making a bad situation worse.

Edited October 2, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

44 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I am at the point where I don't believe a word this guy (or girl if that is the case) says.

 

I now feel like an idiot for once chastising a poster for calling him/her a troll.

I think that poster was me lol

2 hours ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

Invest in what? How often do you walk Ontario? The number of times I've been panhandled, followed, verbally threatened, offered by drugs is more than one deserves in a lifetime. Didn't a woman get sexually assaulted there? I know for a fact there have been 2 robberies this year just on that block alone. That street is not viable at all. It's too concentrated with poverty.

 

Bud. I live on Ontario.... 

 

And what you discuss is exactly why that area needs to be revitalized rather than bypassed. 

5 hours ago, shack said:

Reminds me of the Clinic campus where it is much more appropriate and practical.

These renderings are so damn misleading.  With those idiotic bridges, we become downtown Atlanta.  Those bridges will take all the people shown AT STREET LEVEL right off the street. 

 

There is no need for a second bridge.  I said the first, would lead to a second, and here we are.  All Downtown residents should be against this.  We can't expect to have street level retail when nobody is on the street!

Edited October 3, 20195 yr by MyTwoSense

I really don’t see how the second bridge is really that bad if they go through with fixing up the street level. People going to the casino weather using a cross walk or a bridge are going to the casino. If plans are to go to the casino and you have to use the cross walk what makes anyone think that those people are going to make a pit stop somewhere along the street just because they were not able to use a bridge. If someone really was interested in stopping at something along the street, bridge or no bridge they will make that stop one way or another. For crappy weather I feel having inclosed walk ways would help bring people to the casino and not skip it because the weather sucks. Maybe I’m missing something but I really don’t see how this would take people off the streets other then for the couple of mins it takes to cross the street to get to the casino...

What's actually a little bit intriguing is that this walkway is intended to link the May Company building development (not just the garage) to Tower City Center. That's why I posted the article and photos in this thread rather than the Casino phase 1 thread.

 

I'm still not a fan of the walkway, but its purpose is more than just about providing casino access to another parking garage.

It would be the final link that connects all of the Gilbert properties to one another.

11 minutes ago, KJP said:

What's actually a little bit intriguing is that this walkway is intended to link the May Company building development (not just the garage) to Tower City Center. That's why I posted the article and photos in this thread rather than the Casino phase 1 thread.

 

I'm still not a fan of the walkway, but its purpose is more than just about providing casino access to another parking garage.

Then my comment is even more valid.  Those residents/potential residents will want neighborhood retail and restaurants in addition to what is already on East 4th. 

 

Why is there a need for this second bridge.  Is/will walking down Prospect or Euclid that much of an inconvenience?

5 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

It would be the final link that connects all of the Gilbert properties to one another.

 

Without putting on a coat....FWIW.

If someone wants to go to a restaurant or something on the street they will get to it bridge or no bridge. In cold weather knowing you can get to where you want to go while staying inside i feel is a big draw to that location. Having to take a cross walk out side doesn’t force people to stop at street level locations they will just walk past them more times then not. 

4 minutes ago, PAZUZU said:

If someone wants to go to a restaurant or something on the street they will get to it bridge or no bridge. In cold weather knowing you can get to where you want to go while staying inside i feel is a big draw to that location. Having to take a cross walk out side doesn’t force people to stop at street level locations they will just walk past them more times then not. 

You prove the point that there is no need for either of those bridges.  Its plain old laziness.

 

what proof or source do you have that pedestrians walk past businesses?

I have no proof it’s just my opinion. I shouldn’t have typed it making it sound like a fact because I can only speak for my self. Though I’m now “poison” on here I still respect you and everyone’s opinion. 

50 minutes ago, PAZUZU said:

I really don’t see how the second bridge is really that bad if they go through with fixing up the street level. People going to the casino weather using a cross walk or a bridge are going to the casino. If plans are to go to the casino and you have to use the cross walk what makes anyone think that those people are going to make a pit stop somewhere along the street just because they were not able to use a bridge. If someone really was interested in stopping at something along the street, bridge or no bridge they will make that stop one way or another. For crappy weather I feel having inclosed walk ways would help bring people to the casino and not skip it because the weather sucks. Maybe I’m missing something but I really don’t see how this would take people off the streets other then for the couple of mins it takes to cross the street to get to the casino...

 

Because with the skybridge, they won't even get the chance to see what exists on the street.  Downtown businesses thrive on foot traffic.  Starve them of that, and they will not survive.  Skybridges thus create a vicious cycle of sequestering foot traffic into a privatized circulation system while undermining the businesses at street level and eventually leaving vacant buildings, vagrants, and trash behind.

12 minutes ago, X said:

 

Because with the skybridge, they won't even get the chance to see what exists on the street.  Downtown businesses thrive on foot traffic.  Starve them of that, and they will not survive.  Skybridges thus create a vicious cycle of sequestering foot traffic into a privatized circulation system while undermining the businesses at street level and eventually leaving vacant buildings, vagrants, and trash behind.

 

Does anyone have a study of this? I know I read a few about Minneapolis and the impact privatizing pedestrian activity had (through sky bridges with open/close hours) had on the city and its a) crime, b) economic development—and the decades it took for them to fix the problem... but I can’t seem to find them anywhere. 

8 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

You prove the point that there is no need for either of those bridges.  Its plain old laziness.

 

what proof or source do you have that pedestrians walk past businesses?

Is it laziness or is it an opportunity to bypass the current unpleasant street atmosphere?

 

Wouldn't it be better to improve the street vs trying to circumvent it?

2 minutes ago, Frmr CLEder said:

Is it laziness or is it an opportunity to bypass the current unpleasant street atmosphere?

 

Wouldn't it be better to improve the street vs trying to circumvent it?

 

So exactly how does taking eyes, ears and feet off the street going to improve the street atmosphere?  

 

You yourself state the obvious and prove my point.  Building a bridge is a recipe for disaster.  Have we learned NOTHING from Tower City's Avenue?

Now that Gilbert owns that entire section of Ontario, why not add opportunities for community engagement vs building a bridge that further isolates?

.......is this really going to get approved? ?

8 minutes ago, Zyrokai said:

.......is this really going to get approved? ?

We will see.  It is being presented to Design Review in a half hour and the Planning Commission tomorrow.

 

Last time I was at Design Review (in connection with Stark wanting to tear down 310  Prospect) one of the panel members opined what a tragedy the other bridge was so I would be very interested to hear the debate today.  If anybody on the board is there today it would be great if you could report back.  Not only the views of the panel members but the owner's presentation and how they go about putting lipstick on this pig.

Not a fan of skybridges like you all, but in this instance consider this:

 

- May company building is only being renovated bc Gilbert is doing so.  (small price to pay)

- If bedrock thinks those apartments gain a leasing advantage by having them connected internally to offices in tower city / and the RTA / and his casino then I get it.

- Higbee is already a casino, does it really matter if another skybridge skewers the façade?

- End result is we have renovated a garage that was horrible, and a renovated massively empty building on public square.  I'm not shedding a tear about a walkway, yes I understand those things are already happening without this skybridge.

- This isn't going to affect foot traffic one way or the other, the casino people are already parking in the other garage and using the other skybridge, this gives a second option on gamedays

- regarding crime, I've never felt great about leaving the casino at street level at night if I've won at the casino (rare occurrence)

JACK Entertainment pitches new aerial walkway as a key to sparking downtown economic growth on Ontario

https://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/2019/10/jack-entertainment-pitches-new-aerial-walkway-as-a-key-to-sparking-economic-growth-on-ontario.html

 

Seems like the review committee approved the concept with very little push back... 

6 minutes ago, RE Developer In Training said:

Seems like the review committee approved the concept with very little push back... 

 

Wow...

I really find this amazing.  Design Review doesn't like the first bridge but likes this one.  Really wish I could have been there.  If there was going to be any push back it was going to be in design review not the PC which pretty much kneels before Gilbert (and of course has the ultimate say no matter what design said) so looks like a done deal unless somebody like Matt Zone has any power.

5 minutes ago, Htsguy said:

I really find this amazing.  Design Review doesn't like the first bridge but likes this one.  Really wish I could have been there.  If there was going to be any push back it was going to be in design review not the PC which pretty much kneels before Gilbert (and of course has the ultimate say no matter what design said) so looks like a done deal unless somebody like Matt Zone has any power.

 

The only thing I can think of is you never know what’s going on behind the scenes. Just yesterday the Tower City remodel was proposed which is also a Bedrock project in terms of investment. Maybe there was some back door dealings going on but I’m just totally speculating. 

So ... why cant we do ALL OF THIS, without a bridge? 

 

• When JACK returns to get approval of its final plans, the committee wants to see a detailed plan for the street, given that Gilbert’s companies have control of nearly all the property, including streetscaping improvements.
• The committee also wants a look at plans for overhauling the May Co. garage, including work that will replace some cement walls with a glass façade.
• The committee asked JACK to have conversations with RTA about improving transfer stops as part of a streetscape improvement.

In other news, I hear that bloodletting is a wonderful way to boost stamina. My Twitter contribution....

 

 

3 hours ago, Taller_is_better said:

Not a fan of skybridges like you all, but in this instance consider this:

 

- May company building is only being renovated bc Gilbert is doing so.  (small price to pay)

- If bedrock thinks those apartments gain a leasing advantage by having them connected internally to offices in tower city / and the RTA / and his casino then I get it.

- Higbee is already a casino, does it really matter if another skybridge skewers the façade?

- End result is we have renovated a garage that was horrible, and a renovated massively empty building on public square.  I'm not shedding a tear about a walkway, yes I understand those things are already happening without this skybridge.

- This isn't going to affect foot traffic one way or the other, the casino people are already parking in the other garage and using the other skybridge, this gives a second option on gamedays

- regarding crime, I've never felt great about leaving the casino at street level at night if I've won at the casino (rare occurrence)

 

1. How is Gilbert renovating May in any way relevant to the sky rights above a public street? I assure you if I buy two houses across from each other in Cleveland Heights, they’re not going to grant me the right to bridge them together...

 

2. I work in a Tower City... if you think taking the elevator down, walking up to the Higbee, getting your ID checked? Walking through the maze to the escalators, walking through another maze to the bridge, and then waiting for another elevator (or stairwell, god forbid) is faster than walking out the front door of Tower City and across the street... well—I got nothing. Not to mention if you’re coming to/from work, you’d have to have your bag checked. Or if you’re bringing your kids to work—they’re not even allowed to use the bridge as a pass-through because they’re not of legal age...

 

3. Same as 1. What does Higbee’s existence as a casino have to do with the sky rights over Ontario?

 

4. Your own argument is that it takes people living in May and working in TC off the street by giving them a pass-through. Followed by arguing that this doesn’t remove people from the street...

 

5. Again, broken window theory. Also, what if you don’t drive? So we’re saying drivers have the right to security but those who can’t afford a car, or wish to use an alternative form of transit (including the growing downtown population who sure as sh*t isn’t going to drive from their apartment/condo to the casino) don’t have the right to security?

Ok so we can revitalize the street by taking more people off of it?  Who’s on the design commission?? 

1 hour ago, cle_guy90 said:

 

The only thing I can think of is you never know what’s going on behind the scenes. Just yesterday the Tower City remodel was proposed which is also a Bedrock project in terms of investment. Maybe there was some back door dealings going on but I’m just totally speculating. 

 

I had a similar thought. 

It's this lack of the city's/county's/state's strategic thinking that has created NEO's current situation.  These elected officials and their minions never seem to get the big picture; or do they?

Edited October 3, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

If you take the streets from the people, the people will bring the streets to you.

 

https://www.cleveland.com/crime/2019/10/man-steals-car-from-jack-casino-garage-after-taking-keys-from-valet-office-records-say.html?utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=clevelanddotcom_sf&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR267dP5tXxvYPZKgKjUp_Yby8P5918v702RfqefVWyHtgzK4XWbgn_25_4

Most of the planning commission is apparently too scared to vote against Bedrock.

 

https://www.clevescene.com/scene-and-heard/archives/2019/10/04/jack-casinos-proposed-pedestrian-bridge-gets-green-light-from-cleveland-planning-commission-final-approval-still-awaits

 

Quote

Jack Casino's Proposed Pedestrian Bridge Gets Green Light From Cleveland Planning Commission, Final Approval Still Awaits

...

Outside on the sidewalk following the meeting, Komoroski was on the phone debriefing someone on the vote while waiting at a crosswalk. Loud enough for anyone to hear, including this reporter, he was expressing to whomever was on the other end of the line his vigorous and sincere displeasure with the councilman's vote.

"And one guy switched his vote at the last minute to a no. Kerry McCormack," Komoroski said. "Kerry FREAKING McCormack."

It's almost as if they expect to get what they want, and unanimously with total acquiescence at that, with no inspection of what seem to be hollow promises. Where have we heard that story before?

 

Edited October 4, 20195 yr by Mendo

Has there been a sudden loss of common sense on the Review Board?

 

"Komoroski led off with a stirring jargonoliloquy, declaring the pedestrian skyway would be a "catalyst" for the revitalization of that stretch of Ontario, ushering in a new era of increased foot traffic that would drive street-level retail and investment."

 

Am I missing something here or is this complete nonsense?

 

How is a pedestrian skyway, above the roadway, going to drive increased foot traffic and street-level retail?

Edited October 5, 20195 yr by Frmr CLEder

Jeez... I think Scene can sometimes be a little ridiculous in their 'everything is negative' approach but talk about shady-sounding:

 

"Outside on the sidewalk following the meeting, Komoroski was on the phone debriefing someone on the vote while waiting at a crosswalk. Loud enough for anyone to hear, including this reporter, he was expressing to whomever was on the other end of the line his vigorous and sincere displeasure with the councilman's vote. 

"And one guy switched his vote at the last minute to a no. Kerry McCormack," Komoroski said. "Kerry FREAKING McCormack."" 

I can only hope there’s some significant quid pro quo going on here and the quo is worth it...

I would think that there’s value in getting more office tenants in the Higbee building. And especially if they’re getting them from outside of the city, you bet your ass they care about covered parking. If this attracts more business to the property, this isn’t a bad thing. They say potential tenants complain about the lack of covered parking and I could completely believe that

In my honest opinion.  If you are in favor of a second bridge over Ontario, instead of providing and marketing walk-able retail along Ontario, PS/Euclid and Prospect.  You hate Cleveland!

 

Edited October 5, 20195 yr by MyTwoSense

3 hours ago, MyTwoSense said:

In my honest opinion.  If you are in favor of a second bridge over Ontario, instead of providing and marketing walk-able retail along Ontario, PS/Euclid and Prospect.  You hate Cleveland!

 

We can't even provide decent retail on Euclid Ave, how would the city be able to support retail along Ontario at all?

29 minutes ago, AsDustinFoxWouldSay said:

We can't even provide decent retail on Euclid Ave, how would the city be able to support retail along Ontario at all?

This is all urban planning, emphasis on the planning. Planning for the future. What's being built now will have an impact on the city for decades. Not that long ago Euclid was slow and lacking much in the way of retail. A short walk in downtown will show that this is no longer the case as more and more businesses are opening downtown. The point of preserving Ontario retail along with the point of building new retail spaces is in planning for a time in the future when the demand will be there to fill up these spots. We need them now because they'll be filled tomorrow.

Edited October 6, 20195 yr by tykaps

8 hours ago, inlovewithCLE said:

I would think that there’s value in getting more office tenants in the Higbee building. And especially if they’re getting them from outside of the city, you bet your ass they care about covered parking. If this attracts more business to the property, this isn’t a bad thing. They say potential tenants complain about the lack of covered parking and I could completely believe that

 

Im confused why the covered parking right in between Brooks Bros and the casino isn’t considered covered parking...

The new windows and black frames really change the whole building. 

 

A similar vantage point from google street view (Aug. 2015)

 

Roof view from Terminal Tower

That atrium is pretty cool!!

Now if we could get something built on Stark's lot, we'd be in business!

21 hours ago, GISguy said:

Roof view from Terminal Tower

That Nucleus site sure needs to be filled from this vantage point. 

I recently worked in the May Company building. Here's a veiw from the east side porches on the 4th floor. 

Also, the atrium was pretty impressive.

Great views!  I have to say, The Beacon is really growing on my from a design standpoint.