April 24, 20187 yr There's no problem with whomever is owning the lower floors. The problem is the high cost of construction/renovation and the relatively low rents in Cleveland. To make a feasible retail space on the 2nd floor (let's say a TJ Max or Target) you would need elevators, escalators, floor leveling, fire sprinkler system, major HVAC upgrades and a serious demising wall to separate what is likely to become parking on the interior of the second floor. So you've probably spent upwards of $40/sf and haven't even started true tenant improvement items like flooring, lighting, data, etc. By comparison, how much could this space really generate in rents?? Not enough for a deal to work.... This is the rub for pretty much all real estate development in Cleveland. It's the reason so much subsidy is needed for most projects.
April 24, 20187 yr So the question remains -- why set aside 80,000 sf for retail? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 24, 20187 yr So the question remains -- why set aside 80,000 sf for retail? For a city target of course. ;)
April 24, 20187 yr Here comes, Yabo, the debbie downer... A CityTarget won't be sustainable over an extended period without equity downtown. Renters can prop it up until a down market, idk about beyond then.
April 24, 20187 yr What do you mean by equity downtown Yabo? You say equity—which I would say refers to a diverse set of incomes downtown—and then say that rentals are the problem. But generally in a down economy people turn to rentals. So I’m not following your logic at all
April 24, 20187 yr ^I think he means owner occupants. ^^I'm not sure whether a Target* is sustainable downtown or not, but I suspect you're exaggerating the significance of tenure type. Income probably matters most, but beyond that, transient occupants, especially those living in their first post-collegiate apartment are a huge market for low and mid level home furnishings. *Note, there's no such thing as "CityTarget" anymore. They're all just Targets of various sizes: https://corporate.target.com/article/2015/08/rebranding-citytarget-targetexpress-stores-flexibl
April 24, 20187 yr CbusTransit[/member] by equity I mean ownership. We have great ownership vs. rental mixes in Tremont, Ohio City, Detroit Shoreway, and even in Uptown, to an extent. However, all of our ownership opportunities Downtown are either in the Warehouse District or beyond E. 12. This effectively leaves an approximately 15x8 block zone where we have thousands of renters, but no owners. I just fear that without some conversions into condominiums, Downtown will face a massive bubble.
April 24, 20187 yr If be curious as to what such a bubble would look like...you’re saying that in a downturn we would suddenly have massive vacancies downtown? I just don’t see that. The most recent downtown, for instance, saw most homeowners hurt and a massive increase in rentals.
April 24, 20187 yr So the question remains -- why set aside 80,000 sf for retail? For a city target of course. ;) Look to Portland OR for a similar white-terracota building of a City Target :) https://www.yelp.com/biz/the-galleria-portland
April 25, 20187 yr anyone have real stats on how the Heinens downtown is doing? I had heard they expected to lose money at this location the first few years but were willing to do so simply as a marketing move. If the downtown Heinens is in fact operating in the black, it makes me think a May Co retail center that offers some groceries as well as hard goods could be feasible. Rents/construction of course to be determined....
April 25, 20187 yr anyone have real stats on how the Heinens downtown is doing? I had heard they expected to lose money at this location the first few years but were willing to do so simply as a marketing move. If the downtown Heinens is in fact operating in the black, it makes me think a May Co retail center that offers some groceries as well as hard goods could be feasible. Rents/construction of course to be determined.... I am at that Heinen's 3-4x a week. Unless Geis is ripping their eyes out in rent... There is no way they are losing money at that location.
April 25, 20187 yr anyone have real stats on how the Heinens downtown is doing? I had heard they expected to lose money at this location the first few years but were willing to do so simply as a marketing move. If the downtown Heinens is in fact operating in the black, it makes me think a May Co retail center that offers some groceries as well as hard goods could be feasible. Rents/construction of course to be determined.... I am at that Heinen's 3-4x a week. Unless Geis is ripping their eyes out in rent... There is no way they are losing money at that location. You might be surprised. It's not as easy as you think to make money at grocery business. Very thin margins. When you take into account the inefficiencies of that downtown location, lower produce turnover/higher waste, more labor to unload/unpack deliveries... it's not as simple as just "charging more money..." You quickly reach a point where many downtown residents just go to Rocky River Heinens or whatever once a week...
April 25, 20187 yr ^I understand and agree with the first part of your post. I don't understand why any of those factors would cause downtown residents to shop at a store 10 miles away.
April 25, 20187 yr ^I understand and agree with the first part of your post. I don't understand why any of those factors would cause downtown residents to shop at a store 10 miles away. Because it's cold & snowy in Cleveland and it sucks buying $150 worth of groceries and lugging it 10 blocks back to your apartment... go on a Saturday afternoon, take the dog to the dog park, visit your parents, and make other stops to run errands that don't exist downtown like getting your car serviced or Home Depot, etc. That's what most of my friends do that live downtown
April 25, 20187 yr ^And my experience living downtown for a couple years (granted 15 years ago) is that many people (including myself) did not shop once a week but went two or three times a week and made smaller purchases with more prepared foods.
April 25, 20187 yr ^I understand and agree with the first part of your post. I don't understand why any of those factors would cause downtown residents to shop at a store 10 miles away. Because it's cold & snowy in Cleveland and it sucks buying $150 worth of groceries and lugging it 10 blocks back to your apartment... go on a Saturday afternoon, take the dog to the dog park, visit your parents, and make other stops to run errands that don't exist downtown like getting your car serviced or Home Depot, etc. That's what most of my friends do that live downtown Very few of my friends who live downtown shop like your example. Most do as Htsguy has experienced...
April 25, 20187 yr But I work downtown and live on the west side. I pick up what I’m going to make that evening and take it home with me each day.
April 25, 20187 yr ^And my experience living downtown for a couple years (granted 15 years ago) is that many people (including myself) did not shop once a week but went two or three times a week and made smaller purchases with more prepared foods. Possibly the trend you described is more for single folks while couples/married folks like the option I described...
April 25, 20187 yr ^I think it has more to do with space. I shop more frequently because I do not have a large freezer/fridge and limited cupboard space
April 26, 20187 yr So the question remains -- why set aside 80,000 sf for retail? The first floor is 80,000 sq ft (1 million sq ft ÷ 8 floors) and they believe that can rent it all as retail.
April 26, 20187 yr So the question remains -- why set aside 80,000 sf for retail? The first floor is 80,000 sq ft (1 million sq ft ÷ 8 floors) and they believe that can rent it all as retail. A big portion of the lower floors, and maybe upper floors, is probably going to be hollowed out for parking on the interior. The building is so massive there are large interior areas with no exterior window views at all. Imagine standing in the middle of Euclid & Prospect and trying to get a glimpse of natural light from either direction... so the 80,000 sf number may be relevant but it's not just an entire first floor...
April 26, 20187 yr So the question remains -- why set aside 80,000 sf for retail? The first floor is 80,000 sq ft (1 million sq ft ÷ 8 floors) and they believe that can rent it all as retail. A big portion of the lower floors, and maybe upper floors, is probably going to be hollowed out for parking on the interior. The building is so massive there are large interior areas with no exterior window views at all. Imagine standing in the middle of Euclid & Prospect and trying to get a glimpse of natural light from either direction... so the 80,000 sf number may be relevant but it's not just an entire first floor... The middle of the upper floors will be hollowed out, but not for parking. The parking will be on the lower three floors with an atrium in the middle of the building. There's plenty of space for retail along Prospect in addition to the retail already present in the building.
April 27, 20187 yr So the question remains -- why set aside 80,000 sf for retail? The first floor is 80,000 sq ft (1 million sq ft ÷ 8 floors) and they believe that can rent it all as retail. A big portion of the lower floors, and maybe upper floors, is probably going to be hollowed out for parking on the interior. The building is so massive there are large interior areas with no exterior window views at all. Imagine standing in the middle of Euclid & Prospect and trying to get a glimpse of natural light from either direction... so the 80,000 sf number may be relevant but it's not just an entire first floor... The middle of the upper floors will be hollowed out, but not for parking. The parking will be on the lower three floors with an atrium in the middle of the building. There's plenty of space for retail along Prospect in addition to the retail already present in the building. It makes no sense to me how much lower prospect has been neglected. It has so much potential to be a feeder of activity for the Casino and benefit from the Casino. You'd think since East 4th leaks out to it, The Q is a stone throw away, the casino towers over it, that they would hurry to get the retail for all the buildings fixed up and occupied. The "closeness" of the street also screams a walkable vibrant neighborhood. This is slightly off topic but the mention of the empty retail in the May Co. building made me want to mention it.
April 27, 20187 yr I normally walk or bus down Euclid but I have started riding a bike as the weather has been warmer... and using Prospect instead of Euclid. I was just thinking this the other day as I rode. It's a great street and there's not a lot of gaps other than the Nucleus lot. Lots of preexisting storefronts that just need some TLC. I would expect the focus of renovations and development to shift over to Prospect once the Euclid Ave stretch from 9th to PHS... Huntington, JHB, Athletic Club... is finished.
April 27, 20187 yr I normally walk or bus down Euclid but I have started riding a bike as the weather has been warmer... and using Prospect instead of Euclid. I was just thinking this the other day as I rode. It's a great street and there's not a lot of gaps other than the Nucleus lot. Lots of preexisting storefronts that just need some TLC. I would expect the focus of renovations and development to shift over to Prospect once the Euclid Ave stretch from 9th to PHS... Huntington, JHB, Athletic Club... is finished. Well that's why I mentioned lower Prospect around 4th st. and the casino, a small but important stretch because that is where tourist would visit first. That stretch, the most visible stretch imo, is the most neglected part of Prospect. I LOVE Prospect, it is a very underrated street imo, the "intimate" and urban feel it gives off is the best out of all the downtown streets besides Euclid.
May 22, 20187 yr 308 units total, with half being 2 or 3 bedroom. 519 parking spaces in the basement and floors 2-5 behind apartments lining the exterior. With an atrium cut into the center to provide windows for interior units on floors 6-9. Interestingly, the first picture highlights the garage at the corner as "future mixed-used". I wonder what's being planned there.
May 22, 20187 yr So much digital ink spilled in this thread recently about the retail in this project, but looks like just a few new storefronts will be added to the existing tenant mix. Which is fine. Great to see so many more residents being packed in near Public Square.
May 22, 20187 yr I love the attention to detail with the restoration of the signage, lighting and frontage, as well as the atrium and green-space on the roof. Overall I think this is as close as best-case as you could do with this building in a residential restoration. Hopefully these details stick through to the final product, and don't slowly fall off the proposals over time.
May 22, 20187 yr So much digital ink spilled in this thread recently about the retail in this project, but looks like just a few new storefronts will be added to the existing tenant mix. Which is fine. Great to see so many more residents being packed in near Public Square. Are you saying that you don't care for the baseless speculation and banter because that's kind of our thing here? ;)
May 22, 20187 yr Development crews outside the old May Company department store today. Were these workers refining their final presentation for the Landmarks Commission hearing this Friday? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 22, 20187 yr Development crews outside the old May Company department store today. Were these workers refining their final presentation for the Landmarks Commission hearing this Friday? Does anyone know if the black granite storefront facade was original to the building on the Euclid Ave side? I cannot tell from these plans if it remains the same or will be restored to it's original. I would love to see it updated to a brighter detail
May 22, 20187 yr ^ the black granite doesn't appear to show up in the pics above until the 1935 pic. The 1924 pic appears to show the same white facade as used above the storefronts.
May 22, 20187 yr ^ the black granite doesn't appear to show up in the pics above until the 1935 pic. The 1924 pic appears to show the same white facade as used above the storefronts. It probably got dirty over the years with pedestrians leaning on it, so the just changed it to black to hide it....
May 22, 20187 yr It probably got dirty over the years with pedestrians leaning on it, so the just changed it to black to hide it.... I would have thought all the coal soot from furnaces, trains, foundries and steel mills would dirty the terra cotta more. Wait, isn't terra cotta a comparatively soft material? So wouldn't that get more easily damaged/vandalized along the sidewalk? Considering it was replaced with granite seems to speak to this. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 22, 20187 yr "future mixed-used" I wonder if the abundance of parking in the interior of May Co. opens up additional possibilities for the May garage parcel.
May 22, 20187 yr In the Crains article a couple pages back it mentions 80k sq ft retail. Where is that? Could that be where the May garage annex comes into play. There was a building permit for facade work on the garage a few weeks back. It's now labeled as future mixed use. Hmm. Anyway it's exciting to see this move forward.
May 22, 20187 yr Trying to imagine a fully restored, cleaned, lit up May Co. Building. So exciting to see this pressing forward. It would be no loss to take down the May Co. garage... I parked there once and it was terrible. Then when I saw the Bailey Building that used to stand in that spot I was even more furious! Maybe a long shot but wow would that be amazing if this project also got rid of that eyesore. In the meantime I will take a full active May Co. Building.
May 23, 20187 yr It looks like the entire first floor is retail, except for hallways, ramps and other access corridors. The May Co. is eight stories and 1,121,000 square feet after its 1931 expansion. That's 140,125 square feet per floor. Even if half of the first floor is used for access corridors, that's 70,000 square feet. And it looks like far less than half is used for non-retail purposes. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 23, 20187 yr ^Lots of new parking! Is that really all you got out of this fantastic proposal? The parking is inside the building surrounded by apartments. It's the best possible solution.
May 24, 20187 yr Interestingly the picture no longer says "future mixed use", now it says Jack Parking
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