Haha, well there isn't really much of a skyline in Cedar Rapids, its a pretty small metro of around 260k.  The tallest building is around 300'.  They are building a headquarters building for a logistics company, but they are still rebounding quite a bit from the floods of 2008 which really devastated the area.  They have some decent infill going in around near downtown area, which I think is fairly impressive for a city it's size.  I've seen a couple good angles from the East looking west but I can't find any right now, but here is a riverfront photo.

I've always been partial to the view that's perpendicular to the street grid straight on from the lake.

Hopefully it looks something like this soon...

Pittsburgh has an amazing skyline but if not viewed from Ft Pitt or Mt Washington it is not as impressive.

 

From PNC Park on the North Shore:

 

From a riverfront park next to PNC Park:

 

So as long as you aren't looking from the North, South, or West of downtown, it isn't very impressive.

 

I don't think either of those views compares to the stunning one more often seen.  Neither are very 'impressive' IMHO

^To each his own, I suppose, but I think the skyline view from PNC Park is fantastic.  The city looks huge from that angle, with a really dense array of tall skyscrapers. There are some angles where Pittsburgh's skyline looks weak-- I'm thinking of approaching the city from the NE, where it looks like there are only a few tall buildings/USX dominates over everything.

 

I do love that shot of Cleveland from the lake- looks very impressive.  My favorite angle of Chicago also is from a boat on Lake Michigan. Everything just seems lined up and the city appears to just emerge from the water.

Pittsburgh has an amazing skyline but if not viewed from Ft Pitt or Mt Washington it is not as impressive.

 

From PNC Park on the North Shore:

 

From a riverfront park next to PNC Park:

 

So as long as you aren't looking from the North, South, or West of downtown, it isn't very impressive.

 

I don't think either of those views compares to the stunning one more often seen.  Neither are very 'impressive' IMHO

It doesn't look "bad" from these angles but not "stunning" as seen from Ft Pitt.

Cleveland: I've never seen that angle W28th posted, I love it!

It doesn't look "bad" from these angles but not "stunning" as seen from Ft Pitt.

Cleveland: I've never seen that angle W28th posted, I love it!

 

Wait... You love that view of Cleveland, but the best you can say about the view of Downtown Pittsburgh from the North Shore is that it "doesn't look bad"?

 

:wtf:

 

I think Pittsburgh is in the running for most beautiful skyline in the country. This is the view I think of when I think of their skyline, too. The Ft. Pitt Tunnel view is great, and the suddenness of it is incredible, but I still prefer a shot of the skyline from PNC Park. The density is great, the colors pop, and the variety in architecture is remarkable.

^ It pains me to say it, but I agree. Pit's skyline is much more impressive than any of the Ohio cities'

I'm the best skyline.

It doesn't look "bad" from these angles but not "stunning" as seen from Ft Pitt.

Cleveland: I've never seen that angle W28th posted, I love it!

 

Wait... You love that view of Cleveland, but the best you can say about the view of Downtown Pittsburgh from the North Shore is that it "doesn't look bad"?

 

:wtf:

 

I think Pittsburgh is in the running for most beautiful skyline in the country. This is the view I think of when I think of their skyline, too. The Ft. Pitt Tunnel view is great, and the suddenness of it is incredible, but I still prefer a shot of the skyline from PNC Park. The density is great, the colors pop, and the variety in architecture is remarkable.

You are reading too far into this. All I'm saying is it is not as good as the other views but it is not a bad view either. I haven't seen the view before of the Cleveland skyline that was posted that is why I like it. I was not comparing the two in any way.

Hopefully it looks something like this soon...

 

I count 10 new buildings in that (not including your completing of the E&Y tower and the Hilton). Some of them are actually proposed towers that I'm familiar with. Are all of them proposed?

 

EDIT: I'm pretty sure they're all proposed. I'm confused about the tall one on the left. Is that the Playhouse Square residential tower or a new Justice Center? And I'm confused by the new one you've placed overlapping the Fifth Third tower.

The one to the east is the Playhouse Square tower. Overlapping 5/3 is the old Hippodrome site. We can dream can't we...

The one to the east is the Playhouse Square tower. Overlapping 5/3 is the old Hippodrome site. We can dream can't we...

 

This is a good discussion topic for a Cleveland-centric thread. So I've posted your pictures and our discussion at:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,29704.msg796873.html#msg796873

Wow.  Cincy ranked #1:

 

Cincinnati is the best big city in U.S. for business, study says

It doesn't look "bad" from these angles but not "stunning" as seen from Ft Pitt.

Cleveland: I've never seen that angle W28th posted, I love it!

 

Wait... You love that view of Cleveland, but the best you can say about the view of Downtown Pittsburgh from the North Shore is that it "doesn't look bad"?

 

:wtf:

 

I think Pittsburgh is in the running for most beautiful skyline in the country. This is the view I think of when I think of their skyline, too. The Ft. Pitt Tunnel view is great, and the suddenness of it is incredible, but I still prefer a shot of the skyline from PNC Park. The density is great, the colors pop, and the variety in architecture is remarkable.

 

the ft pitt tunnel view of pitts may be the most stunning view of a city in the world. particularly at night.

Sad to see both Toledo and Cleveland on here. :cry:

 

30 Cities Where America’s Poor Are Concentrated

By Douglas A. McIntyre March 31, 2016 6:45 am EDT

 

According to new research from the Brookings Institution, the concentration of poor people is particularly acute in several U.S. cities. The first point of the research is obvious. The portion of the population that lives below the poverty line has not changed much since the Great Recession. The number is roughly 15% of all Americans.

 

This concentration is particularly high in 30 cities.

 

 

http://247wallst.com/economy/2016/03/31/30-cities-where-americas-poor-are-concentrated/

 

http://www.citylab.com/housing/2016/03/how-concentrated-poverty-has-risen-since-the-recession-in-3-infographics/475812/

You're not sad to see Youngstown on there too? ;)

 

Is the poverty rate based on pure income levels or does it take into account the cost of living in the area in which people live?

^My understanding is Brookings bases these numbers on nominal income, so it doesn't take into account cost-of-living. It's based on the federal poverty level in a given year, which of course ignores the massive COL differences across the United States.

 

Obviously, Toledo, Cleveland, and Youngstown have some of the cheapest housing in America, so it might even out a bit. Ditto with Buffalo, Milwaukee, and Detroit. Great Lakes cities also have decent amenities and good urban stock.

 

The situation in a town like Fresno is arguably worse since it's an expensive place to live compared to the Rust Belt. Its job market also is just as bad.

Another cities' ranking where Cleveland ranks poorly.

http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2016/05/cleveland_named_to_25_best_cit.html

 

Another cities' ranking where Cleveland ranks poorly.

http://www.cleveland.com/entertainment/index.ssf/2016/05/cleveland_named_to_25_best_cit.html

 

 

Cleveland is going to have a hard time ranking high on these lists because the economy is not growing nearly fast enough compared to other US metros. When one starts to mention the Cleveland region's slow-growth economy people get defensive and say it's transitioning or whatever. Not quite sure how to solve this problem without first being honest of where Cleveland's economy is in terms of the nation and then addressing problems to fix it. This topic seems like third-rail stuff though, especially on these boards.

Wow.  I never realized how not fun Cleveland is.  I need to move to Pittsburgh, where it is twice as fun..... objectively speaking, of course

lol how is Toledo that much more fun than Cleveland? I have my doubts.

Not a bad list this time Cleveland!

 

Walkable New Construction: 10 Cities Leading the Way

https://www.redfin.com/blog/2016/08/walkable-new-construction-10-cities-leading-the-way.html

 

Percentage of New Homes With a Walk Score Higher Than The City Walk Score

 

1 Philadelphia, PA 91%

2 Chicago, IL 89%

3 Cleveland, OH 88%

4 St. Petersburg, FL 88%

5 Boston, MA 85%

6 Seattle, WA 81%

7 Washington, DC 75%

8 Denver, CO 73%

9 San Francisco, CA 73%

10 Dallas, TX 62%

^ That list is very interesting. I feel like walk scores tend to be higher in urban cores, so could this list be a backwards way of attaining which cities have the latest percentage of their growth occurring in their urban cores? Of course there are some complicating factors with this theory. Some cities like LA probably do not have their highest walk scores in their downtowns. SF could be another one that fits this scenario, and it's on this list. Interesting stuff to think about.

What do the top-10 most livable cities in the world have in common? None are in the United States of America. Not surprising considering our black-balling of universal access to and taxpayer-funding for services like education, infrastructure and health care....

https://www.thestreet.com/slideshow/13687710/11/the-world-s-10-most-livable-cities.html

^ Livable for whom? Most of those cities are very expensive to live in. If you're a middle class working person in Ohio, you'd be nuts to move to Vancouver or Toronto where you could live in a studio apartment for the same cost of an entire house in Ohio. Wages are likely less in those places due to the exchange rates right now. The same goes for the Australian cities.

^Median household income in Toronto is 50% higher than it is in Ohio, and they get free healthcare.

^Median household income in Toronto is 50% higher than it is in Ohio, and they get free healthcare.

Income is 50% higher but then they take 40% of that to pay for the "Free" healthcare.

^Median household income in Toronto is 50% higher than it is in Ohio, and they get free healthcare.

Income is 50% higher but then they take 40% of that to pay for the "Free" healthcare.

So they'd still be making more money than us even if our healthcare truly was free.  But we have to spend a ton of our income on healthcare, if you're lucky enough to be able to afford to.

Well, seeing how Calgary and Hamburg are cheap...I don't buy the "more expensive" argument.

^ I didn't say every city on the list was more expensive, I said "most."

 

^Median household income in Toronto is 50% higher than it is in Ohio, and they get free healthcare.

 

And the average home in Toronto is $807,000 compared to $121,600 in Ohio.  As I said, what gets you a nice home in Ohio would get you a rented studio apartment in Toronto. So far as healthcare, the "middle class working person" I mentioned in Ohio has access to healthcare, even if it costs a bit more than the amount of tax Canada takes to pay for their healthcare.

 

In short, I think this is a list that is very befitting the name of this thread.

^Median household income in Toronto is 50% higher than it is in Ohio, and they get free healthcare.

 

Not even close to being true.

 

Median income of the Toronto MSA is $75,270CAD.

 

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm

 

Median income of an Ohioan is $49,308USD. Using the current exchange rate it's $64,446.67CAD.

 

http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/ohio/

 

It's about a 15% difference.

 

Also, the median price of home in Calgary is $422,000CAD. Converted it's $322,781.74USD.

 

http://www.creb.com/Seller_Resources/Housing_Statistics/

 

At least there are still affordable cities in the United States to buy a home. In Canada, unless you plan to live in the Yukon, Newfoundland or some place in central Quebec which can have snow in June, you're mostly out of luck.

 

 

 

^also, why compare all of Ohio to just the Toronto area? For a fairer comparison you must include the rest of Ontario, much of which is rural and has the same type of small towns and medium-sized cities one finds in Ohio. Naturally income is going to be much higher in Toronto, which is essentially "Canada's New York."

^also, why compare all of Ohio to just the Toronto area? For a fairer comparison you must include the rest of Ontario, much of which is rural and has the same type of small towns and medium-sized cities one finds in Ohio. Naturally income is going to be much higher in Toronto, which is essentially "Canada's New York."

 

The median salary is higher in the entire province versus Toronto. Mainly due to many higher paying government and contracting jobs in Ottawa and natural resource mining in the far north of the province.

 

Ontario's median is $78,790CAD. Converted it's $60,217USD. Closer to a 20% difference.

^also, why compare all of Ohio to just the Toronto area? For a fairer comparison you must include the rest of Ontario, much of which is rural and has the same type of small towns and medium-sized cities one finds in Ohio. Naturally income is going to be much higher in Toronto, which is essentially "Canada's New York."

 

The median salary is higher in the entire province versus Toronto. Mainly due to many higher paying government and contracting jobs in Ottawa and natural resource mining in the far north of the province.

 

Ontario's median is $78,790CAD. Converted it's $60,217USD. Closer to a 20% difference.

 

I had completely forgotten that Ottawa is in Ontario (duh). I'm sure they have an equally high proportion of obscenely-paid do-nothing government bureaucrats as in DC!

^Median household income in Toronto is 50% higher than it is in Ohio, and they get free healthcare.

Income is 50% higher but then they take 40% of that to pay for the "Free" healthcare.

 

Where do you get that 40% from?

 

In that same tax bracket, the US takes approx. $5,000 plus 25% of anything over approx. $37,000.  If my math is correct, with a $75,000 income and not including any deductions, the tax bill for an individual would be roughly $15,000

 

Canada takes 15% on the first $43,000 and then 22% on the next $48,000.  Again using the $75,000 figure, that gets you closer to $17,000 for the tax liability for an individual.

^Median household income in Toronto is 50% higher than it is in Ohio, and they get free healthcare.

 

Not even close to being true.

 

Median income of the Toronto MSA is $75,270CAD.

 

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm

 

Median income of an Ohioan is $49,308USD. Using the current exchange rate it's $64,446.67CAD.

 

http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/ohio/

 

It's about a 15% difference.

 

Also, the median price of home in Calgary is $422,000CAD. Converted it's $322,781.74USD.

 

http://www.creb.com/Seller_Resources/Housing_Statistics/

 

At least there are still affordable cities in the United States to buy a home. In Canada, unless you plan to live in the Yukon, Newfoundland or some place in central Quebec which can have snow in June, you're mostly out of luck.

 

 

 

 

Currency exchange rates don't come in to play. If you're earning $75,000 CAMP and your home costs $800,000 CAD, no one in Canada cares about the exchange rate anymore than someone in the USA thinks about exchange rates when buying/renting a home in the USA.

 

Also, all of the cities mentioned have public transportation systems and support of land use patterns that make it possible to live without a car and the roughly $10,000 per year in annual expense that goes with it.

 

People who live in those cities don't spend a lot of time in their homes. The city is their living room.

To wrap this up, I was responding to Ram's comment that wages are "likely less" in those Canadian cities, which -- whether or not you account for exchange rates or the added benefit of free healthcare -- is simply not true (and I agree with KJP that for the purposes of this discussion those rates are largely irrelevant)

^ If you adjust income for cost of living, you're likely better off financially in any average US city than any of the cities on that list. Granted, there are other things to consider aside from finances, but I consider that to be the most important, as do many people, leaving my initial question of "for whom" still unanswered. If you care more about public transit or paying the government for healthcare instead of a private insurer than you do your own financial success, then those cities likely are great places to live.

 

I wanted to point out that the list covers just "five areas" and leaves out many areas that Americans consider to be extremely important - aside from financial success, I don't see anything about personal freedoms, for instance. The source dropped several US cities because of police shootings - something that wouldn't even be a blip on my radar in terms of "livability."

 

This list is ultimately just like all the other dumb-a$$ lists on this page - it's completely subjective but masquerades as objective.

lol how is Toledo that much more fun than Cleveland? I have my doubts.

 

I've been surprised at how much there is to do in Toledo. The city is just the right size to be able to support a wide variety of mid-range activities - it's no Chicago or Vegas - but there are all kinds of activities year round, and the best part is, that they are socially-accessible. I've never gotten a sense of exclusivity at any event, from high-brow symphony concerts to street festivals. Toledo is surprisingly fun.

^Median household income in Toronto is 50% higher than it is in Ohio, and they get free healthcare.

 

Not even close to being true.

 

Median income of the Toronto MSA is $75,270CAD.

 

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/famil107a-eng.htm

 

Median income of an Ohioan is $49,308USD. Using the current exchange rate it's $64,446.67CAD.

 

http://www.deptofnumbers.com/income/ohio/

 

It's about a 15% difference.

 

Also, the median price of home in Calgary is $422,000CAD. Converted it's $322,781.74USD.

 

http://www.creb.com/Seller_Resources/Housing_Statistics/

 

At least there are still affordable cities in the United States to buy a home. In Canada, unless you plan to live in the Yukon, Newfoundland or some place in central Quebec which can have snow in June, you're mostly out of luck.

 

 

 

 

Currency exchange rates don't come in to play. If you're earning $75,000 CAMP and your home costs $800,000 CAD, no one in Canada cares about the exchange rate anymore than someone in the USA thinks about exchange rates when buying/renting a home in the USA.

 

Also, all of the cities mentioned have public transportation systems and support of land use patterns that make it possible to live without a car and the roughly $10,000 per year in annual expense that goes with it.

 

People who live in those cities don't spend a lot of time in their homes. The city is their living room.

 

If you're going to compare Ohio's median income with Ontario then you have to use exchange rates. It's math. It would make no sense otherwise.

 

That being said, if someone in Toronto is making $75k on average and the average home is $800k while in Cleveland someone on average is making $45k and the average home is $125k, math again shows the cost of property alone in the GTA would offset any additional costs in Ohio. The value in Cleveland is much better.

 

The USA has a distinct advantage of affordable housing in several markets. This doesn't exist in much of Canada now. It's a very good thing for the United States.

 

I love Toronto, I consider it my third home and the GTA is the best urban planned city in the Western Hemisphere. That being said, it's becoming way too unaffordable.  All of Canada has a housing bubble from hell that is too late to fix. Feel bad for people who live there, I know many who rent and want to move here (as long as Trump isn't the President.)

If you're going to compare Ohio's median income with Ontario then you have to use exchange rates. It's math. It would make no sense otherwise.

 

That being said, if someone in Toronto is making $75k on average and the average home is $800k while in Cleveland someone on average is making $45k and the average home is $125k, math again shows the cost of property alone in the GTA would offset any additional costs in Ohio. The value in Cleveland is much better.

 

Your second paragraph is the relevant comparison -- Toronto income vis-a-vis Toronto cost of living vs Cleveland income vis-a-vis Cleveland cost of living.

 

And sure these lists are subjective. They're based on values of the person or organization creating the list. Yes, if you're trying to live a suburban American lifestyle with a car and a big house with a big TV, then you're not going to find any world-class city very livable. If you're spending most of your time in your car and house, then why live in a city with tremendous amenities anyway?? Any look-a-like American suburb will satisfy you.

^ You could live in Chicago for cheaper than Toronto and have just as much, if not better access to transit, walkable neighborhoods, and other urban amenities.

 

Or you could buy a house in an urban location in a place like Cincinnati for the cost of about $100,000 and have access to all of those things, like I do. I guess what you consider a "world-class city" is also subjective, but I don't exactly view Calgary as any more worldly than any of Ohio's three Cs.

 

I think the key elements separating cities on this list are issues like healthcare and violence.

I think the key elements separating cities on this list are issues like healthcare and violence.

 

I'm sure they are. The violence, poor education, healthcare, teen pregnancies, infant mortality, etc etc. are all much worse in Chicago than Toronto which is simply a much more tightly run ship, again, as are most of the cities on that list. And I would debate Chicago's transit system vs. Toronto's today. Tomorrow, considering the immense amount of capital improvements Ontario is pouring into transit (soon to be joined by the federal government), whatever edge Chicago transit has on Toronto's won't last long.

Maybe this could go here?  Anyway, it just shows how far behind Ohio is in the urban turnaround.  Not good numbers, and Cleveland seems incredibly sad.  Cincinnati is really no better.  These numbers were put together over on SSC.

 

2015 Value of Residential Construction/Square Mile

 

Minneapolis - $5,333,438

Chicago - $4,690,000

Madison - $2,930,838

St. Paul - $2,495,196

Omaha - $2,348,383

Columbus - $2,314,646

Grand Rapids - $1,843,570

Des Moines - $1,537,600

Indianapolis - $1,432,471

St. Louis - $1,324,928

Kansas City - $1,195,363

Milwaukee - $625,402

Detroit - $557,390

Cincinnati - $365,739

Cleveland - $95,840

 

Absolute numbers:

 

Chicago - $1,097,463,084

Indianapolis - $532,879,326

Columbus - $516,166,220

Kansas City - $381,320,851

Minneapolis - $311,472,756

Omaha - $307,638,270

Madison - $275,498,784

Des Moines - $139,921,675

St. Paul - $139,731,023

St. Louis - $87,445,221

Grand Rapids - $83,421,579

Detroit - $79,706,725

Milwaukee - $60,538,984

Cincinnati - $29,076,251

Cleveland - $7,906,804

2015 Per Capita Investment in Residential Construction:

 

Madison - $1181

Kansas City - $802

Minneapolis - $758

Omaha - $689

Des Moines - $669

Indianapolis - $625

Columbus - $607

St. Paul - $464

Grand Rapids - $428

Chicago - $407

St. Louis - $277

Detroit - $117

Milwaukee - $101

Cincinnati - $97

Cleveland - $20

^ so cincy and cle are lagging essentially the entire Midwest. Cool.

What are these numbers? No context. Does that number include residential conversions?  Also, I never see you post in the numerous Cleveland neighborhood forums which discusses ongoing residential development.

Holy cow absolute residential number of $30 million for Cincinnati that is far off. They have about $750 million going in downtown alone right now

Yeah, it's extremely hard to believe that Cleveland would have only $7,906,804 in residential construction in 2015.  Judging by all the new residential threads from last year in the NE Ohio P&C section, that's absurd.