Wein is a total bore but it's an easy place to live, I'll give it that.

 

A rare thing: A Forbes list that doesn't put Cleveland at the bottom.

 

On a list, "America's Top 50 U.S. Cities For Working Mothers--A look at how the 50 largest cities rank for working moms, based on women's earnings, unemployment rates, crime levels, school systems, health care and cost of living,"

 

Cleveland's overall rank is 18. 

 

Columbus is 17 and Cincy is 26.

 

Minneapolis is #1 and Washington #2. Memphis is 49 and Las Vegas is 50.

 

http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/24/best-us-cities-working-mothers-employment-family-forbes-woman-leadership-parenting-table.html

not another stupid (Forbes) list

 

A rare thing: A Forbes list that doesn't put Cleveland at the bottom.

 

On a list, "America's Top 50 U.S. Cities For Working Mothers--A look at how the 50 largest cities rank for working moms, based on women's earnings, unemployment rates, crime levels, school systems, health care and cost of living,"

 

Cleveland's overall rank is 18.

 

Columbus is 17 and Cincy is 26.

 

Minneapolis is #1 and Washington #2. Memphis is 49 and Las Vegas is 50.

 

http://www.forbes.com/2010/07/24/best-us-cities-working-mothers-employment-family-forbes-woman-leadership-parenting-table.html

 

As a working mom, I can tell you this list is just as much BS as the other lists, if we even ranked on it.  Well, perhaps if the list added a qualification for the incomes of those workign moms.  Without getting too specific, those in the upper echelon at the companies I've worked for have it a lot better than the peons.  More perks, more benefits, more flexibility, more understanding, etc.

The people at the top get better treatment at the places you've worked for?

Wein is a total bore but it's an easy place to live, I'll give it that.

 

oh no you dih-int!  :-D :-D :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :-D :-D

 

I dont know when you were here or how long, but vienna continues to surprise me every day. the cleanliness, safety, and scale of the metro system is overall the best i have seen in the world, and there is so much culture to be had its insane. the tourist areas get boring and to be honest the nightlife leaves a bit of something to be desired but you have to remember its only 1.7 million people and for them to have what is here.. its just insane. were you there in the summer? i go to the rathaus as much as i can.. free showing of amazing operas, and incredible food all for under 10 euro.. and the museumsquartier at night is like nothing else on the earth.

 

aaah.. i will cherish it as long as i can. just throwing wein some love!

Yes, I was in Wein in the summer and while I loved the city (gorgeous, cultured, etc), I found it repetitive, boring nightlife/bars, and quite uniform (I prefer a "little" edge; that does not equate with "grit" though).

 

But hey, I can always go back and "judge" again, eh?

ah well since i am studying architecture here, i find the edge because i am looking at more of the modern stuff.. with zaha and coophimmelblau on the tips of my fingers i definitely see enough of that! even austrian keyboards can make this cool face... ö or ü  haha

LOL!  Well enjoy your time!

Another cheery list to start the weekend.  I know people say these lists don't matter but they're still hurtful and depressing and it's hard to argue with the criterion: "high taxes, lousy weather, political corruption and lousy sports teams."  The political corruption here cannot be trumped: one of Feagler's guests talked about an FBI friend of his telling him that there is not one single other city like Cleveland with the kind of corruption at every single damn level.  Chicago and Newark may be bad, but Cleveland is at a level of its own, according to this guy.  We talk a lot about crimes, racial tensions, unemployment, awful schools, taxes insanity, but it's really those scumbags that work for the city and county that have raped Cleveland more than anything else.  It all starts with them, and everyone in the area has suffered as a result. 

 

Getting off that rant, the most shocking thing on the list is that El Centro has unemployment levels of over 27 percent (the site has a link).  You can probably double that in terms of underemployment - that's just shocking and third world country levels.

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland-ranks-%232-on-%27worst-places-to-live%27-list

 

Cleveland ranks #2 on 'worst places to live' list

 

CLEVELAND - According to one survey, Cleveland is among some of the "worst places to live" in the U.S.

 

Cleveland came in second place on the list--Detroit, Mich. was a close third.  First on the list was El Centro, Calif.

 

According to U.S. Census records, roughly 2,600 people left Cleveland in 2009, the largest numerical drop among America's major cities.

Who did the survey?

 

In regards to political corruption, which is a subjective measure to begin with, I'm not at all convinced that it's worse here than in a lot of other places (like Chicago).  I just think that the media has picked up on it and ran with it.  The "lousy weather" thing is blown out of proportion, but regardless beyond our control.  I'll agree with the high taxes, something must be done about that ASAP.  I won't touch the "lousy sports teams" claims, we'll have our day eventually! :)

Okay, looking at the original source, it appears they parroted the Forbes ranking quite a bit.  Very lame.  And the other problem is that it seems like they were only looking at Cleveland proper for many of the statistics, which presents a very uneven view of things.

You shouldn't accept second hand accounts from "my friend in <insert law enforcement body here>."  Before you know it you'll never leave your home but to sell it and move out to the sticks because it's safer.  It doesn't matter if they're a deputy in Mayberry or a Federal Agent, the grass is always a deep shade of shit brown.

While i agree that the political corruption stigma is subjective, you cannot deny the  incredible and growing amount of reported and anecdotal amount of graft and scumbaggery that exists on every major level of public employment - auditors, county engineers, harbors, waterworks, education, public safety, judicial system, energy commission, public utilities, board of health, etc.  Similar malevolence exists in other cities no doubt, but at this level?  Eventually the national media will have to take notice of this epidemic, and in all honesty we Clevelanders dont really give this problem the attention it deserves

Here's the issue I have with the corruption stigma for Cleveland.  This is a "city" list, no?  We can't deny that corruption at the county level is readily apparent and rampant.  And that surely reflects negatively on the City because Cleveland is the County seat and Downtown is where you find county officials basing their operations.  However, while there are no doubt elements and instances of corruption, probably mostly in political patronage in the appointment process at and associated with City Hall, I doubt it exceeds the norm for comparable Cities.  I deal with the City enough to know that it can and will play political hardball and, for lack of a better term, 'toe the line' when it comes to decisions and daily operations.  But 'corrupt' is not a term I would use to describe City Hall.

I don't think we can separate county and city when talking about corruption.  I seriously doubt there would ever be a list for worst counties in the country; rather, the term 'city' should be used loosely here.  For example, I don't think you can separate Dimora, Hogan, and Jones from the city.  The Cuyahoga County corruption IS Cleveland corruption.

 

And regarding City Hall, while I haven't heard anything about Frank or Jane per se that suggests they themselves are crooks (Mike is a very different story but I don't want to go too far back), there are plenty of articles about city hall corruption, be it direct or indirect:

 

http://clevelandmagazinepolitics.blogspot.com/2009/05/city-hall-corruption-scandal-grows-feds.html

City Hall corruption scandal grows: feds charge more inspectors

No, it's not some little offshoot of the county investigation. Cleveland City Hall has its own corruption probe on its hands -- an FBI sting of the city's building and housing department, complete with lots of video and audio surveillance and an undercover agent posing as a New York businessman.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/04/cleveland_city_council_preside_2.html

Cleveland City Council President Martin J. Sweeney says money from contractor was campaign contributions

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland City Council President Martin J. Sweeney says the money he received from a prospective city contractor -- and mentioned in a telephone conversation tapped by federal corruption investigators -- was campaign donations.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2010/03/city_of_cleveland_fires_commun.html

Cleveland fires manager of city's mortgage-assistance program, disciplines her bosses

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The city of Cleveland has fired the manager of a federally funded mortgage-assistance program for improperly trying to give herself a city loan and has suspended her two bosses for failing to intervene.

 

 

I didn't say there was "no" corruption at City Hall.  I just don't think the problem is systematic as it is in the County.  Hopefully, with regards to the County, that is going to change with our new form of government.

But do you really consider the two different?  I mean for all practical purposes?

Not for "all" practical purposes, but they are two distinct political operations same as Cuyahoga County and the State of Ohio are distinct.

Similar malevolence exists in other cities no doubt, but at this level?

 

Seems your argument is based on an appeal to ignorance- "I don't know that corruption in other places is as bad as Cleveland, therefore it must not be".

The problem is that lists like these have a hard time being consistent.  They'll use crime and unemployment numbers that reflect the city proper, but then use county crime cases as an indication of local corruption.  Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense. 

When has county corruption made Cleveland a miserable place to live?

Stupid, unethical and outright illegal use of tax revenue certainly harms the taxpayers and city as a whole for a lot of obvious reasons, not to mention overall morale and business climate desirability. 

The problem is that lists like these have a hard time being consistent. They'll use crime and unemployment numbers that reflect the city proper, but then use county crime cases as an indication of local corruption. Sorry, but that makes absolutely no sense.

 

What he said

Okay, looking at the original source, it appears they parroted the Forbes ranking quite a bit.  Very lame.  And the other problem is that it seems like they were only looking at Cleveland proper for many of the statistics, which presents a very uneven view of things.

 

Well said. These lists are very misleading and when looking at Cleveland anymore, you just cannot include the city proper. Many of these people moving out have NOT left the area...rather, just simply stepped over the imaginary line. Also, does any such list take in account the kind of people Cleveland is gaining..or moving into the city...or the quality over quantity factors?

 

At any rate, this magazine and these absurd lists cannot be taken seriously to the extent of accuracy...But, I do think the city/visitors bureau needs to keep up the fight against this kind of thing, because it is really not doing any favors in terms of efforts to make Cleveland better. I think Forbes tops the list of WORST and inaccurate, misleading lists. This magazine has gone so far right that its WRONG!

 

Also, political corruption is wrong....and we have our share on both side of the fence that needs watch dogging.... But some places may be better at hiding it than us. Bottom line...humans by nature are given to temptation and greed...and are the same beast no matter where you go. If these lists seem to suggest that everywhere else is so politically squeaky clean, such is just gullible and naive..and downright absurd. Someone blow this magazine out of the water please. Is there anyway this magazine can be smeared nationally? A big effort to do so...a campaign to expose a lot of the B.S. of this publication.

I think the whole weather thing is getting old too. Everyday during the winter months aren't miserable. Several people actually enjoy the weather and the activities it brings such as sledding, outside ice-skating, skiing/snowboarding, building snowmen or having snowball fights. Also Christmas with snow and all the lights is better then a hot Christmas. And I personally sleep better in the winter then in the summer. All of our seasons bring different aspects to our life that are good in someway, maybe bad in another way but it doesn't make us miserable. I like the lights, decorations, outdoor activities, and sleeping, in the winter. The flowers blossoming, and the warming of weather in the spring, the perfectly clear sunny days full of colors, and outdoor activities in the summer. And the change of color in the trees, football, and a little cooler temperature in the fall. We get to enjoy all the seasons and the benefits that come with them, it gives us something to look forward to at all times. Several cities/states can't say that.

^ This is exactly what I have been saying for years. The argument is old and very opinionated and perspective. I happen to love seasons and moods in weather. From a natural/artistic perspective it is an interesting thing to me.I happen to think Cleveland looks its best with some eerie misty clouds and fog embracing it. Passionate and sexy weather gives a place personality...

 

For example, I note some attributes about seasons, not necessarily in order.... I love winter because it gives me a chance to get out and do many things that assure I will not encounter too many people and their often bad behavior that accompanies them. I can do winter oriented things and indoors, it is a perfect backdrop for reading by a fireplace. I like going through the metro-parks on a winter late afternoon, seeing clear winter skies...and hearing the silence...nothing but softly howling winds and creaking of trees. It can be magical at the right time...winter sunsets are among the best with the bare trees in the foreground while the sunset glows behind them creating an intricate silhouette of the tree limbs.

 

I also love winter because of all that it provides the moods of the holiday season. Fall is a natural fireworks show of color..and spring represents the re-birth of the land. Now, if I can only do something about noisy lawn care fanatics who spoil my first experience of warmer temperatures by blowing rodent spittle over my way with dirt blowers...where it settles on top of my potato salad. No, its not paprika!

 

So yes, this weather idea that the only preferred or nice weather experience can be found in nothing but sun, (ever notice the dried weathered skin and crows feet of those who get over exposed in sun? Nice tan today, skin cancer tomorrow) to me....is very short sighted, represents a lack of adventure or creativity in how to view the natural world and appreciate it...and someone who assumes that the only possible nice day can be a day dry and sunny.

 

I welcome the storms, the rains, the diversity in weather...  People have t learn how to look at such in a totally different way and discover what they're missing.

 

Oh, and by the way, this has been what most would see as a nice summer. Balanced with the right rainfall and warm days...  The "bad weather" thing is grotesquely exaggerated and even in Winter...we have a blast for a couple weeks and that's it!  Big deal!  Get over it and quit being so wimpy.. Getting used to various weather makes one more adaptable and a survivor.

10 Worst Places to Live

Aaron Crowe

Aug 5th 2010 at 6:00AM

 

See full article from WalletPop: http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/08/05/10-worst-places-to-live/?sms_ss=email&icid=sphere_copyright

10 Worst Places to Live

Aaron Crowe

Aug 5th 2010 at 6:00AM

 

See full article from WalletPop: http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2010/08/05/10-worst-places-to-live/?sms_ss=email&icid=sphere_copyright

Seriously, why is Cleveland #2?  Is the weather really that bad up there?

 

Seriously, why is Cleveland #2?  Is the weather really that bad up there?

 

Yes. Why, just yesterday, we had a foot of snow, 40 mph winds and a wind-chill factor of -15.

 

Oh, wait, yesterday it was 85 degrees and mostly sunny with a nice breeze coming off the 78-degree lake waters with just enough wave action that it looked like thousands of glittering jewels at sunset. I'm sure all the boaters, swimmers and beach-setting romantics just hated Cleveland's weather...

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like how we are chosen for "weather"(which is just plain stupid), "high unemployment"(even though we are below national average), "lousy sports teams"(even though we had the best record in the NBA for 2 years in a row and were expected to win the Championship at the time of the list), and "high taxes"(which are lower than several other big cities). Makes a lot of sense to me :?

And we don't have a lock on public corruption either. I guess that gets overlooked when you're Chicago, New Orleans, New York, Washington DC, or many many other cities.

:) I know Cleveland's weather isn't that bad, I was just being facetious. I really think these lists are just for PR and to give interns something to do.  Someday if/when Cleveland is hip it'll show up on the good lists.  Lists mean only as much as you let them.

The winters are pretty awful here and we get a ton of gray, depressing days, plus the bad weather seems to go on half a year.  I understand the need to defend Cleveland for some things, but the weather, in particular the winter, is really indefensible.

 

 

It could be worse, we could all live in San Francisco and be having a week of highs in the 50s.

The winters are pretty awful here and we get a ton of gray, depressing days, plus the bad weather seems to go on half a year.  I understand the need to defend Cleveland for some things, but the weather, in particular the winter, is really indefensible.

 

 

 

But again everyday in the winter isn't horrible, winter adds a whole other aspect.

 

like i said before...

I think the whole weather thing is getting old too. Everyday during the winter months aren't miserable. Several people actually enjoy the weather and the activities it brings such as sledding, outside ice-skating, skiing/snowboarding, building snowmen or having snowball fights. Also Christmas with snow and all the lights is better then a hot Christmas. And I personally sleep better in the winter then in the summer. All of our seasons bring different aspects to our life that are good in someway, maybe bad in another way but it doesn't make us miserable. I like the lights, decorations, outdoor activities, and sleeping, in the winter. The flowers blossoming, and the warming of weather in the spring, the perfectly clear sunny days full of colors, and outdoor activities in the summer. And the change of color in the trees, football, and a little cooler temperature in the fall. We get to enjoy all the seasons and the benefits that come with them, it gives us something to look forward to at all times. Several cities/states can't say that.

The winters are pretty awful here and we get a ton of gray, depressing days, plus the bad weather seems to go on half a year. I understand the need to defend Cleveland for some things, but the weather, in particular the winter, is really indefensible.

 

Seriously?  The winters are not that bad.  It could rain in cold sheets for four months, or be -10 before windchill for all of January.  Our winters are no worse than any other northern city's winters.

The weather thing really is an incrediby stupid reason for saying a city sucks. Many of the most amazing cities of the world have very similar weather as Cleveland or worse. If the DBags who put these lists together were ever put on the spot to justify their findings they would fall like the little twits they seem to be.

The winters are pretty awful here and we get a ton of gray, depressing days, plus the bad weather seems to go on half a year. 

 

Says who? read my post at the top and get a different perspective. Who placed a monopoly on the definition of good weather being weather that is only a sunny day? 

 

One more "the weather sucks" comment and I will start spewing how much I hate sun 24/7 ...all the negatives that can accompany that...and how I am glad I will never get crows feet! All is ok....when the coasts are under water, maybe some will come crying back to Cleveland. This weather thing really is an absurd criteria for a list.

 

And yes, as someone above indicates.... the weather here is really no worse than other northern cities and winters are not as they're made out to be. Quit being wimps and toughen up.... That's HIP!  And I hate that word too.

 

I will never trade sun 24/7 for crisp Autumns in areas like Chagrin Falls where I get the sensation of being in the Legend Of Sleepy Holly story...or somewhere in Silas Marner! As for more on Winter...again, see my top post. Its time people start looking at weather with new perspectives instead of the same old "un-hip" archaic ones. Look at the romantic opportunities it can provide for in not only partnerships, but other ways as well.

 

My next book will be about "What to do in Winter....How to appreciate it...what you can discover...and why we should appreciate it and why it is essential" Basically all that many have forgotten. The more Forbes makes lists like this they admit to drawing straws, lose credibility...and simply need to get another gig.

The winters are pretty awful here and we get a ton of gray, depressing days, plus the bad weather seems to go on half a year. I understand the need to defend Cleveland for some things, but the weather, in particular the winter, is really indefensible.

 

 

Our first freeze last year was mid-December and we had roses blooming up next to the house until early December.  Then it was something like 65 and sunny on St. Patty's day (2nd year in a row), and we had 6-7 days over 80 in April.  How does that add up to "half a year"?

It's "half a year" if all you do is stay inside in the winter, look out the window and count the days until May 1. Then it seems like a half a year. Ironically, this year, we had that spell of 80-degree weather in early April and have had green leaves on the trees and warmer-than-normal weather ever since.

 

I for one like bad snowstorms. I think they're awesome and I like taking pictures or going for walks in the snow. In fact, I took pictures of the ice-coated lakefront like the one used to denigrate Cleveland in that list. I think some of the ice formations along the lakefront are stunningly beautiful.

 

And since I can walk to stores to get much of what I need or take transit to more distant destinations, I look forward to deep snow. Bring it on!

 

A few pictures of the things I love about winter in Cleveland....

 

 

 

But the sun always comes out again....

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hey, I'm glad you guys are fine with our winters, though this is starting to be a silly discussion that's not really worth getting heated over.  I'm just saying that I, and undoubtedly a lot of people, don't feel the same way

Hey, I'm glad you guys are fine with our winters, though this is starting to be a silly discussion that's not really worth getting heated over. I'm just saying that I, and undoubtedly a lot of people, don't feel the same way

Yes, just like undoubtedly a lot of people don't like heat indexes over 100 for "half a year" in places where it doesn't snow in the winter.  So unless you (and those who "don't feel the same way") can have two homes or live on a tropical island with room temperatute breezes year 'round, you need to consider both sides of the coin before whining about chances of a little snow 2-3 months out of the year.

Apparently a lot of days that feel like the inside of a dog's mouth help the weather rankings.

BTW, I know these rankings are stupid and pointless. I named the title of this thread!

 

They are intended solely to generate hits on their sites and discussion on their sites. So if we can discuss it here rather than at the sites that generate the lists, that's fine with me! It helps undermine them, even if only a little bit.

They put NYC as one of the 20 most miserable places to live?  Wow, this shows that using data on income tax, or transportation times to make judgements like this is absolutely pointless.  Yeah sure NYC has a ridiculously high cost of living, but to millions of people that live there, its worth it to immersed in such a culturally rich and alive city like that.  You get what you pay for.  I mean, if you live in No-where-ville Indiana for instance, you'll have tons of extra money from low taxes, low housing costs, low transportation costs, etc, etc.  But, you'll be spending your weekends at the local Wal-mart for entertainment. 

And Cleveland the number 1 most miserable city? Come on!  What a joke!  Forbes needs to jump off a cliff.

Hey, I'm glad you guys are fine with our winters, though this is starting to be a silly discussion that's not really worth getting heated over.  I'm just saying that I, and undoubtedly a lot of people, don't feel the same way

 

You're absolutely right that a lot of people hate the Cleveland winters, but that's not really the point.  The point is that the media, for whatever reason, thinks Cleveland's winters are worse than Buffalo, Toronto, Minneapolis, Boston, Detroit, Chicago, Milwaukee, Denver, Omaha, and Boise combined.  All of these cities (and plenty more) have winters just as harsh and cold (if not worse) than Cleveland, yet they seem to get a free pass.  Whatever, all these rag lists are just repeating what they've been told.

 

EDIT - EVD is right... Buffalo doesn't get a "free pass" when it comes to the weather.

^you might be right about the media perception regarding the other cities, but I think there is pretty much universal agreement that Buffalo has the worst winters of any city--whether or not that's even in fact the case.

It's "half a year" if all you do is stay inside in the winter, look out the window and count the days until May 1. Then it seems like a half a year. Ironically, this year, we had that spell of 80-degree weather in early April and have had green leaves on the trees and warmer-than-normal weather ever since.

 

I for one like bad snowstorms. I think they're awesome and I like taking pictures or going for walks in the snow. In fact, I took pictures of the ice-coated lakefront like the one used to denigrate Cleveland in that list. I think some of the ice formations along the lakefront are stunningly beautiful.

 

And since I can walk to stores to get much of what I need or take transit to more distant destinations, I look forward to deep snow. Bring it on!

 

Now KJP is getting what I'm talking about! And, mark my word... If everyone moves to all these "better places" to live...then eventually, they will become crappy places! Remember the "less can be more" factors..and don't forget to look at the bird on the other thread, Cleveland.

 

 

The winters are pretty awful here and we get a ton of gray, depressing days, plus the bad weather seems to go on half a year.  I understand the need to defend Cleveland for some things, but the weather, in particular the winter, is really indefensible.

 

 

 

Even if this were true (which I don't believe it to be), the weather here is really not much different than other Great Lakes/Northeastern cities in which the majority of the U.S. population lives.