46 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Oh that is such fantastic news! Thanks for the great update. Next stop - adding a station or two  downtown, then on to a downtown loop!

It will take a lot of convincing and money to get RTA to go along with the Downtown Loop. They agree that the Waterfront Line needs to be fixed. That acknowledgement is only partial, however. The Waterfront Line is incomplete. Indeed the rail system is incomplete as only one-third of downtown is within a 5-minute walk of a rail station. That needs to be fixed. Now that we will finally have a rail system operated by a common rail fleet, it can be fixed more effectively. 

I’m hoping with a real infrastructure focus from the train president and mayor pete pushing for great lakes cities this plan will to come to fruition sooner than later. 

Amazing news! Commonizing the system will allow it to function much better than whats currently being realized. I used to use the rapid a lot in the mid 1980's and HATED the transfer downtown on my airport to greene runs.

RTA opens and tries to close discussions on eliminating fare collection "because Unions."

 

Quote

During Tuesday’s presentation, RTA Deputy General Manager of Finance Rajan Gautam emphasized that free fares would not equate to an across-the-board elimination in fare collection expenses, because 77% of those costs are for personnel. Many of those workers are bound by union agreements that would require RTA to reassign them and continue paying their wages, Gautam said.

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/02/greater-cleveland-rta-debates-whether-fares-are-worth-collecting.html

5 minutes ago, Foraker said:

RTA opens and tries to close discussions on eliminating fare collection "because Unions."

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2021/02/greater-cleveland-rta-debates-whether-fares-are-worth-collecting.html

Wow that makes no sense. Wouldn’t almost all of those “costs...for personnel” be the bus drivers, who, if they didn’t have to collect fares, would still be driving the bus?

On 1/20/2021 at 12:21 PM, TheCOV said:

Amazing news! Commonizing the system will allow it to function much better than whats currently being realized. I used to use the rapid a lot in the mid 1980's and HATED the transfer downtown on my airport to greene runs.

 

I hope that when these rail cars are ordered, they will learn from other mistakes of the past.  First, they need to go with a proven design that is used by other cities already.  They don't need to design everything new from the rails up.  Go with something that has had all of the design flaws already worked out and corrected so the system doesn't have to spend years, lots of money and deal with unreliability getting new problems fixed.  Then, with common rail cars already in service, the replacement part situation will be far easier to deal with.  Instead of having a relative handful of unique rapid transit cars where parts are no longer made due to low demand, they are far more likely to be available as more cities will need them.  Currently for RTA, they must pay a premium for special part production runs or strip parts off of other rapid transit cars to keep an ever-dwindling fleet operational. 

 

Finally, the equipment design needs to consider the environment they run in.  The old yellow (before they were repainted) Shaker Rapid Transit Cars were called the PCC cars (President's Conference Commitee).  The group purchased new in 1948 was a streetcar-based design and the second-hand cars purchased to completely modernize the fleet in the 1950s were actually streetcars in Minneapolis and St. Louis.  This in itself proved the benefits of commonality.  All 3 groups shared the same parts and could operate together in trains.  The original blue rapid transit cars on the heavy rail line (1954/1955 & 1958) used many of the same mechanical parts; they just used different car bodies.  This type of equipment was in service in many cities so parts were available for a long time.  Running in snow was not much of a problem.  Air intakes for the motors were mounted on the roof.  Snow didn't get pulled into the motors.  The 1967/1970 Airporters on the heavy rail line and Breda cars in 1981-1983 on the Green/Blue lines had air intakes directly on the motors.  Snow got pulled in, it melted and shorted out motors.  RTA was forced to retain old equipment and press them back into service when the newer cars were out-of-service due to burned out motors.  RTA maintenance workers spent a lot of time designing a filter system to keep the snow out of the motors to correct this problem.

Edited February 6, 20214 yr by LifeLongClevelander

Tower City RTA issue. ☹️
 

 

1 minute ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

Tower City RTA issue. ☹️
 

 

Oh, apparently fixed it quick...

 

 

^ I took the Red Line on a round trip from TC to W25th this afternoon to go to WSM. I just missed that by minutes. Didn’t notice anything that looked like an issue. I was also glad to see that the trains I took today were pleasantly busy. 

On 2/3/2021 at 10:54 AM, Boomerang_Brian said:

Wow that makes no sense. Wouldn’t almost all of those “costs...for personnel” be the bus drivers, who, if they didn’t have to collect fares, would still be driving the bus?

I noticed the lack of fare enforcement on the Red Line except if you use the Tower City station with the turnstiles and RTA cop/s present.  One could easily use the Red Line for free now unless you’re going thru TC. Free ride between all the other stations it seems.

 

Are RTA cops allowed to enforce fare collections for those opting to not pay? Wasn’t the Health Line neutered from its original design because RTA cops were enforcing fare collection by spot checking passengers’ fare cards because a CLE muni judge finding that fare enforcement was a 4th amendment violation? All premised on the fact that the vast majority of fare violators were black. This erroneous ruling went unchallenged of course.

 

not only do away with fare collecting but get rid of the RTA police. I recall a video of RTA cops under fire by a mob on Euclid Avenue near I think CSU a couple years ago. They can’t do their job so get rid of them altogether. Too much controversy enforcing the law generally now. Plus getting rid of the RTA police will save a lot of $ and help in making up for the lost fare revenue.

Edited February 7, 20214 yr by CLENYC

21 hours ago, roman totale XVII said:

^ I took the Red Line on a round trip from TC to W25th this afternoon to go to WSM. I just missed that by minutes. Didn’t notice anything that looked like an issue. I was also glad to see that the trains I took today were pleasantly busy. 

Is RTA enforcing any “mask” mandate? I used the Red Line last August and no one, including RTA employees, was wearing a mask. Some had one on but down on their chin. I suppose though that RTA can’t enforce any mask rule if it can’t enforce fare collection on its former “fare honesty” policy on the trains and healthline.

 

I ask because you stated the trains were busy

4 hours ago, CLENYC said:

....I recall a video of RTA cops under fire by a mob on Euclid Avenue near I think CSU a couple years ago. They can’t do their job so get rid of them altogether. Too much controversy enforcing the law generally now. Plus getting rid of the RTA police will save a lot of $ and help in making up for the lost fare revenue.

 

This is the incident that you cite:  There was a significantly intoxicated teenager on a HealthLine bus.  Near CSU, RTA police boarded the bus to remove the intoxicated youth.  At CSU, there was a large conference being held about certain past "events".  A large number of attendees from the conference converged on the RTA police officers DEMANDING they turn over the youth to them.  They refused (imagine the uproar if something bad happened if they turned him over) and the crowd started to converge on the officers.  The RTA police officers pepper-sprayed the crowd to keep them back.  When EMS arrived on the scene, the youth was taken into their care (believe they transported him to a hospital).

 

After this incident, a certain pathetic excuse for the only large Cleveland printed "news" publication on their website used the picture of the child who was shot by police at the Cudell Recreation Center and compared that incident with the one involving RTA police.  After a massive backlash on the usage of that photo, the website administrators replaced it with some sort of mosaic.  RTA does have significant security and policing issues, however when they do their job in a responsible manner they get blasted by a certain part of the media.  One thing to keep in mind is that security and safety issues are a significant cause for people to not use RTA.  Eliminating RTA police will not improve the transit system in any way and further cause ridership to plummet.

Edited February 8, 20214 yr by LifeLongClevelander

32 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

 

This is the incident that you cite:  There was a significantly intoxicated teenager on a HealthLine bus.  Near CSU, RTA police boarded the bus to remove the intoxicated youth.  At CSU, there was a large conference being held abot certain past "events".  A large number of attendees from the conference converged on the RTA police officers DEMANDING they turn over the youth to them.  They refused (imagine the uproar if something bad happened if they turned him over) and the crowd started to converge on the officers.  The RTA police officers pepper-sprayed the crowd to keep them back.  When EMS arrived on the scene, the youth was taken into their care (believe they transported him to a hospital).

 

After this incident, a certain pathetic excuse for the only large Cleveland printed "news" publication on their website used the picture of the child who was shot by police at the Cudell Recreation Center and compared that incident with the one involving RTA police.  After a massive backlash on the usage of that photo, the website administrators replaced it with some sort of mosaic.  RTA does have significant security and policing issues, however when they do their job in a responsible manner they get blasted by a certain part of the media.  One thing to keep in mind is that security and safety issues are a significant cause for people to not use RTA.  Eliminating RTA police will not improve the transit system in any way and further cause ridership to plummet.

Agreed but RTA cops are generally hindered in doing their jobs.  Recall the film festival attendee getting arrested at W 117th for giving attitude and not allowing her fare card to be adequately verified. Big blow up there as well.

 

imagine though if RTA was “free”?  I get the security issue but why have a police force that can’t enforce rules?  Ridership May plummet for some but if its all free, there will be a large offset with the RTA cops’ hands tied.  That’s why I suggested getting rid of them all together.

 

of course the media will promote the race card with the RTA police. Wasn’t that the angle in eliminating having RTA police check fares on the trains and healthline? Red Line is free other than TC...is anyone doing fare enforcement otherwise on these lines?
 

 

39 minutes ago, CLENYC said:

Agreed but RTA cops are generally hindered in doing their jobs.  Recall the film festival attendee getting arrested at W 117th for giving attitude and not allowing her fare card to be adequately verified. Big blow up there as well.

 

imagine though if RTA was “free”?  I get the security issue but why have a police force that can’t enforce rules?  Ridership May plummet for some but if its all free, there will be a large offset with the RTA cops’ hands tied.  That’s why I suggested getting rid of them all together.

 

of course the media will promote the race card with the RTA police. Wasn’t that the angle in eliminating having RTA police check fares on the trains and healthline? Red Line is free other than TC...is anyone doing fare enforcement otherwise on these lines?
 

 

Fare enforcement isn't the only thing RTA police does though. I mean they handle theft and aggravated robbery that occurs in/on RTA property. 

11 minutes ago, KFM44107 said:

Fare enforcement isn't the only thing RTA police does though. I mean they handle theft and aggravated robbery that occurs in/on RTA property. 

Yet they can’t enforce thefts when it comes to fares. The system should be free for everyone.

 

 Actually RTA recently announced free passes for pregnant women in Glenville, East Cleveland, and collinwood due to their lack of access to transportation to medical facilities.  This being RTA’s attempt to help combat CLE’s 3rd world country infant mortality rate.

 

No fares for anyone using RTA. Of course the union is against that though.

18 minutes ago, CLENYC said:

No fares for anyone using RTA. Of course the union is against that though.

Why is that?  Because of the couple people at Tower City?  

2 hours ago, CLENYC said:

Yet they can’t enforce thefts when it comes to fares. The system should be free for everyone.

 

 Actually RTA recently announced free passes for pregnant women in Glenville, East Cleveland, and collinwood due to their lack of access to transportation to medical facilities.  This being RTA’s attempt to help combat CLE’s 3rd world country infant mortality rate.

 

No fares for anyone using RTA. Of course the union is against that though.

I mean I'm with you. I'm a big proponent for free public transportation. Just throw it on my property tax bill. 

Just now, KFM44107 said:

I mean I'm with you. I'm a big proponent for free public transportation. Just throw it on my property tax bill. 

Purchase anything in Cuyahoga County and 1.0% of that 8.0% sales tax rate goes towards funding RTA.  To deal with revenue troubles, RTA has discussed increasing that sales tax rate at most by another 0.5% or trying to pass a property tax increase.  If either one of those revenue enhancements goes into effect, the highest county sales tax rate becomes even higher or the county with collectively the highest property taxes only sees those go higher.  Either way, it goes to fund a transit agency with historically low ridership totals for three years running as of 2019, not even taking in the ridership hit due to the pandemic in 2020.

 

As a side note, for any other transit system in Ohio, the maximum sales tax component is 0.5% in those counties.

14 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

Purchase anything in Cuyahoga County and 1.0% of that 8.0% sales tax rate goes towards funding RTA.  To deal with revenue troubles, RTA has discussed increasing that sales tax rate at most by another 0.5% or trying to pass a property tax increase.  If either one of those revenue enhancements goes into effect, the highest county sales tax rate becomes even higher or the county with collectively the highest property taxes only sees those go higher.  Either way, it goes to fund a transit agency with historically low ridership totals for three years running as of 2019, not even taking in the ridership hit due to the pandemic in 2020.

 

As a side note, for any other transit system in Ohio, the maximum sales tax component is 0.5% in those counties.

Agree with both of these points. We could also reallocate and redirect some of ODOT's highway spending for RTA.🤯

51 minutes ago, ytown2ctown said:

Agree with both of these points. We could also reallocate and redirect some of ODOT's highway spending for RTA.🤯

 

Over ODOT's dead body

31 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Over ODOT's dead body

Ohio Department of Roads

30 minutes ago, KJP said:

 

Over ODOT's dead body

Yeah....we’d need either a new governor, or hope that the statehouse redistricting generates a large transit friendly coalition. Maybe both. 

2 hours ago, Enginerd said:

Yeah....we’d need either a new governor, or hope that the statehouse redistricting generates a large transit friendly coalition. Maybe both. 

Where is the money going to come from for the state to give more money to mass transit?  By the state constitution, the state's budget must be balanced.  What is going to be cut to funnel more money into transit?  Or, what revenue stream is going to be increased to permit higher state transit funding?  Increase the gas tax?  Increase the tolls on the turnpike or add more toll roads?  Increase taxes by some other method?

 

Pennsylvania (for example) does fund mass transit better on the state level.  Where the transit agencies do get more money from the state, they don't have funding sources like are present in Ohio such as sales taxes funding mass transit.  A big chunk of Pennsylvania's funding source comes from toll roads.  Do you know how much it costs to drive a car from Ohio to New Jersey, one-way, without E-ZPass? $95.30 With E-ZPass it is $47.00.  Six years ago, it was about $45.00 without the pass.  

 

The state is not just going to give out more money without finding a way to get more money first.

30 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

Where is the money going to come from for the state to give more money to mass transit?  By the state constitution, the state's budget must be balanced.  What is going to be cut to funnel more money into transit?  Or, what revenue stream is going to be increased to permit higher state transit funding?  Increase the gas tax?  Increase the tolls on the turnpike or add more toll roads?  Increase taxes by some other method?

 

Pennsylvania (for example) does fund mass transit better on the state level.  Where the transit agencies do get more money from the state, they don't have funding sources like are present in Ohio such as sales taxes funding mass transit.  A big chunk of Pennsylvania's funding source comes from toll roads.  Do you know how much it costs to drive a car from Ohio to New Jersey, one-way, without E-ZPass? $95.30 With E-ZPass it is $47.00.  Six years ago, it was about $45.00 without the pass.  

 

The state is not just going to give out more money without finding a way to get more money first.

There are two options really. From the general fund, or from the motor fuel tax. So far, whatever little has been steered towards transit has been from the general fund.

 

The second option is to send a portion of the motor fuel tax, instead of it being used fully for road construction. With the passed increase, ODOT decided it has enough money to continue capacity increasing projects. I think many people argue Ohio has no business funding such projects.

12 minutes ago, Enginerd said:

There are two options really. From the general fund, or from the motor fuel tax. So far, whatever little has been steered towards transit has been from the general fund.

 

The second option is to send a portion of the motor fuel tax, instead of it being used fully for road construction. With the passed increase, ODOT decided it has enough money to continue capacity increasing projects. I think many people argue Ohio has no business funding such projects.

Especially in the Cleveland Area. 

Just now, Enginerd said:

There are two options really. From the general fund, or from the motor fuel tax. So far, whatever little has been steered towards transit has been from the general fund.

 

The second option is to send a portion of the motor fuel tax, instead of it being used fully for road construction. With the passed increase, ODOT decided it has enough money to continue capacity increasing projects. I think many people argue Ohio has no business funding such projects.

 

If more money is allocated to mass transit from the motor fuel tax, it will be from a tax increase on motor fuels.  If money were diverted from road projects without increase that tax, there would be more than enough complaining coming in when the condition of the roads starts getting worse.  Even as things currently stand, there is a huge amount of road and bridge work needed already throughout the state.  Take money away from that and there will be failures or more deterioration. 

15 minutes ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

 

If more money is allocated to mass transit from the motor fuel tax, it will be from a tax increase on motor fuels.  If money were diverted from road projects without increase that tax, there would be more than enough complaining coming in when the condition of the roads starts getting worse.  Even as things currently stand, there is a huge amount of road and bridge work needed already throughout the state.  Take money away from that and there will be failures or more deterioration. 

 

We should be diverting money from NEW road construction to fund maintenance of the current infrastructure and transit. How many hundreds of millions of dollars has been spent (and is still being spent) adding express lanes down 271 to Macedonia? How many miles of rail could that have funded instead?

And widening route 2 in Lake County. And widening I-90 innerbelt bridge (now 2 bridges). And widening the 480 bridges (now 3 bridges). And the Opportunity Corridor. And the proposal for widening 77 between 80 and Fairlawn.

2 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

A big chunk of Pennsylvania's funding source comes from toll roads.  Do you know how much it costs to drive a car from Ohio to New Jersey, one-way, without E-ZPass? $95.30 With E-ZPass it is $47.00.  Six years ago, it was about $45.00 without the pass.  

With the collection technology today there is no reason we can't be adding more tolls into our highway system.   It's actually something the state needs to be more forward thinking about, as more and more EV's drive on roads without paying gas taxes.    This would free up more funds for our mass transit systems.  

3 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

Where is the money going to come from for the state to give more money to mass transit?  By the state constitution, the state's budget must be balanced.  What is going to be cut to funnel more money into transit?  Or, what revenue stream is going to be increased to permit higher state transit funding?  Increase the gas tax?  Increase the tolls on the turnpike or add more toll roads?  Increase taxes by some other method?

 

We could start by asking our wealthy doctors, lawyers, and other "self-employed" wealthy to pay some income taxes on their first $250,000, since the income tax rate on their first $250k is currently 0%.  Ridiculous that the wealthy get that much of a break.  Is our state better off with that tax break or more funding for schools and transit?

Edited February 9, 20214 yr by Foraker

3 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

 

We should be diverting money from NEW road construction to fund maintenance of the current infrastructure and transit. How many hundreds of millions of dollars has been spent (and is still being spent) adding express lanes down 271 to Macedonia? How many miles of rail could that have funded instead?

 

2 hours ago, Mendo said:

And widening route 2 in Lake County. And widening I-90 innerbelt bridge (now 2 bridges). And widening the 480 bridges (now 3 bridges). And the Opportunity Corridor. And the proposal for widening 77 between 80 and Fairlawn.

 

We should be doing lots of things, but we aren't.  When the government is adding express lanes down I-271 to Macedonia, widening Route to Lake County, widening the I-90 Innerbelt Bridge, adding a third bridge to I-480 and the proposed widening of I-77 are all being done as a response to what the majority of the public wants/chooses.  There have been mass transit options for all of those routes yet the majority of the public isn't interested in using them.  I believe that offering rail options into Lake, Summit, Medina and Lorain Counties are far more desirable options, but the interest by the public is not there.  Even with the existing options and employers are willing to foot the bill for the entire cost to use mass transit options, people don't want to use those services.

 

Here is an example.  In 2016, RTA decided to eliminate the express highway coach service from its Euclid Park-n-Ride facility and replace it with a less-direct route that traveled on regular streets.  Many riders, but not all, transferred to the nearby Laketran Park-n-Ride facility in Wickliffe.  The Laketran service, even though it used the same type of highway coaches, was in many ways better than RTA's highway coach service.  In 2016 and 2018 Laketran replaced its entire fleet of 22 highway coaches with 20 brand new coaches (same length and capacity).  Granted the 2016 buses were already on order when RTA made its decision, but the 2018 buses were not.  If the interest was there, the Laketran fleet would have expanded, not contracted in size.

 

I would love to see some sort of rail rapid transit service from Lake County.  The corridor is already there.  The former New York Central/Conrail now CSX mainline that parallels I-90 at one time had four tracks.  Two have been ripped up and a third serves as a passing/storage/alternate.  The cost to put down new rails and add stations on ready-to-use right-of-way is fairly minimal in the big picture.   

3 hours ago, Cleburger said:

With the collection technology today there is no reason we can't be adding more tolls into our highway system.   It's actually something the state needs to be more forward thinking about, as more and more EV's drive on roads without paying gas taxes.    This would free up more funds for our mass transit systems.  

The state has already devised a way to make up for the lack of gas tax revenue for electric and hybrid vehicles.  They have added a surcharge on registration for them.  As for adding toll roads and increasing the cost of tolls, when they can, people will choose other routes.  Pennsylvania has found this out.  

There's a shocker. People choose the mode of transportation that we've poured a ton of money into over the last couple generations, over a non-existent rail line. Why would the average person advocate for alternative modes of transportation when cars are all they know (and all we fund)?

 

Besides that, I think you've confused the cause and effect of roadbuilding. We don't add lanes because people want it. We add lanes to get people to want it.

I think of the I271 expansion as it was a shovel-ready project.  I imagine the amount of accidents will have dropped quite a bit with the better flow and separation. There were so many choke points before with cross lane shifting in several sections. They have taken the challenge out of commuting on I271.  Its boring and bland now to drive. The white knuckle driving is now reserved for snowbelt white outs. 

   Hopefully we can have some rail shovel ready projects when the infrastructure budget finally gets passed. 

Edited February 9, 20214 yr by audidave

8 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

The state has already devised a way to make up for the lack of gas tax revenue for electric and hybrid vehicles.  They have added a surcharge on registration for them.  As for adding toll roads and increasing the cost of tolls, when they can, people will choose other routes.  Pennsylvania has found this out.  

That surcharge is a b*tch. $100 extra per year for hybrid, $200 for electric. 

 

15 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

 

If more money is allocated to mass transit from the motor fuel tax, it will be from a tax increase on motor fuels.  If money were diverted from road projects without increase that tax, there would be more than enough complaining coming in when the condition of the roads starts getting worse.  Even as things currently stand, there is a huge amount of road and bridge work needed already throughout the state.  Take money away from that and there will be failures or more deterioration. 

This is a misrepresentation of what what I was saying. @PoshSteve was correct, ODOT is diverting hundreds of millions of dollars per year to additional capacity (e.g. lanes). If only a fraction of it were sent instead to transit it would be an exponential increase without taking away

any maintenance funds.

9 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

are all being done as a response to what the majority of the public wants/chooses.

This is also just an assumption, because ODOT does not take public opinion as a driver for its project selection. I think if the public knew exactly where dollars were spent they would not agree.

8 hours ago, audidave said:

I think of the I271 expansion as it was a shovel-ready project.  I imagine the amount of accidents will have dropped quite a bit with the better flow and separation. There were so many choke points before with cross lane shifting in several sections. They have taken the challenge out of commuting on I271.  Its boring and bland now to drive. The white knuckle driving is now reserved for snowbelt white outs. 

   Hopefully we can have some rail shovel ready projects when the infrastructure budget finally gets passed. 

 

It would take a couple of years (at least) and cost millions of dollars (at least) to have a funding-ready plan in place for a rail project. And there would need to be an identified source of operating funds.

 

10 hours ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

We should be doing lots of things, but we aren't.  When the government is adding express lanes down I-271 to Macedonia, widening Route to Lake County, widening the I-90 Innerbelt Bridge, adding a third bridge to I-480 and the proposed widening of I-77 are all being done as a response to what the majority of the public wants/chooses. 

 

ODOT would have to amend the state constitution to be able to use state gas tax dollars for anything other than roads (unless the transit project/service served a highway purpose -- but ODOT refuses to consider that possibility). So your gas taxes sustain a perpetual feedback-loop, protected by a very powerful road-building lobby. I want more of my gas taxes used for transit, but every time I fill up my car (whether I want to drive or not), I end up voting for more roads. My urbanscape has been so dramatically redesigned around car dependency that I have no choice but to keep voting for more roads at the gas pump.

 

What if there was a voting machine attached to the gas pump where you could select not just the fuel type but what purposes you wanted your gas tax dollars to be divided among (100% highways, 75% highways/25% multimodal, 50/50, 25% highways/75% multimodal, 100% multimodal)? What would you choose?

 

42 minutes ago, Enginerd said:

This is also just an assumption, because ODOT does not take public opinion as a driver for its project selection. I think if the public knew exactly where dollars were spent they would not agree.

 

Still, their basis on projects is largely based upon the public.  They don't conduct surveys and polls, but they do make decisions based on the current choices of the public and trends.  They have all sorts of information on road usage.  That 3rd bridge for I-480 is going to be used for increased traffic as that is the route people choose to use.  If drivers held the opinion that another route would suit their needs, they would take it.

 

As for dollars spent, yes there is a lot of waste in ODOT and in the highway departments in all of the other states.  If they would allow for better engineering and construction many problems would be eliminated or lessened.  It may cost more up front, but in the long run the seemingly constant repair and rebuilding would not be done as frequently.  Over time, the overall cost would be lowered, but then a lot of people in the paving industry would be out of work.

 

1 hour ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

 

Still, their basis on projects is largely based upon the public.  They don't conduct surveys and polls, but they do make decisions based on the current choices of the public and trends.  They have all sorts of information on road usage.  That 3rd bridge for I-480 is going to be used for increased traffic as that is the route people choose to use.  If drivers held the opinion that another route would suit their needs, they would take it.

 

 

 

I'm sure Standard Oil in the late 1800s also argued that they should be allowed to continue their business as-is because the growing usage of their product said so.

 

The fact is, we do not have freedom of choice because of the stranglehold the car (oil industry, car makers, road builders, sprawl developers, etc) has on the political process. And, in Ohio, their monopoly is further protected by the Ohio Constitution (Article 5, Sec. XIIA). So to say people have chose the car is only partly true. In most cases, there is no real choice but the car. That isn't freedom. It's tyranny.

1 hour ago, LifeLongClevelander said:

 

Still, their basis on projects is largely based upon the public.  They don't conduct surveys and polls, but they do make decisions based on the current choices of the public and trends.  They have all sorts of information on road usage.  That 3rd bridge for I-480 is going to be used for increased traffic as that is the route people choose to use.  If drivers held the opinion that another route would suit their needs, they would take it.

 

As for dollars spent, yes there is a lot of waste in ODOT and in the highway departments in all of the other states.  If they would allow for better engineering and construction many problems would be eliminated or lessened.  It may cost more up front, but in the long run the seemingly constant repair and rebuilding would not be done as frequently.  Over time, the overall cost would be lowered, but then a lot of people in the paving industry would be out of work.

 

 

What other route are you going to use instead of the I-480 Valley View Bridge?

Just now, X said:

 

What other route are you going to use instead of the I-480 Valley View Bridge?

There are those for whatever reason that detest freeway driving or want avoid the "parking lot" that I-480 can be at times.  Rockside Road would be an alternate.  Not my choice nor preference, but that would be their opinion and choice.  Perhaps the way some people drive, that would be better for nearly everyone involved if they did.  Even better yet, they may be the ones that should consider using mass transit.    

Is that as fast?  And how good are those transit options you're suggesting people take?

 

The point is that alternatives sometimes don't exist, or aren't competitive.  Some, like transit, could be with better funding.  But as long as the funding formula only reinforces the default choice, then viable alternatives cannot rise.

Rockside Road hasn't been too bad lately, probably because of lot of workers in the Independence office buildings are still working from home and the hotels have very few guests.  It does get jammed when there is an accident on I-480 and motorists use it as alternative. 

 

I wish they would have decided on making the Opportunity Corridor a highway with connection to I-90 somewhere on the east side of Cleveland.  That likely would have siphoned some traffic off of I-480.

30 minutes ago, skiwest said:

I wish they would have decided on making the Opportunity Corridor a highway with connection to I-90 somewhere on the east side of Cleveland.  That likely would have siphoned some traffic off of I-480.

 

Uh, no. If we don't get to have a Red Line extended to Euclid, they don't get to demolish minority neighborhoods for a highway extension.

1 hour ago, X said:

Is that as fast?  And how good are those transit options you're suggesting people take?

 

The point is that alternatives sometimes don't exist, or aren't competitive.  Some, like transit, could be with better funding.  But as long as the funding formula only reinforces the default choice, then viable alternatives cannot rise.

 

Never stated that those were good options to take, I just stated they were options.  Using the rapid transit and transferring downtown isn't a bad option only if the ultimate destination is nearby a rapid transit stop. 

 

Alternative funding and solutions are needed.  On the east side, Parker Hannifin and Progressive are major employers in Mayfield Heights and Mayfield Village/Highland Heights respectively.  Maybe they could work together with RTA to make using transit to get to their main sites more transit-friendly.  Based upon the proximity, frequency and overall service, RTA really isn't an option to commute to either one of those companies.  When RTA revamps its service later this year, they are eliminating their park-n-ride highway routes from the west side.  Those two companies should collaborate with RTA to see if providing service from the Green Road terminus to those 2 campuses with those soon-to-be surplus highway coaches is an option and if their employees would use such a service.  Twelve of RTA's twenty four highway coaches are a year old or newer and they are not the type of vehicle to use solely in stop-and-go congested city service.

I see it's being said that the RTA should be free, (which doesn't make sense to me. we all know nothing is really free), but at the same time saying that the RTA doesn't have enough money. The solutions I'm seeing proposed so that we can have "free RTA" are to raise sales tax; take road repair money, raise gas tax, get rid of RTA police, add more highway tolls, tax the EV's more, tax the "rich" more and raise property tax.  All this instead of actually charging the riders of the RTA.  This makes zero sense.

 

If you're saying that RTA fairs don't cover the total costs of having public transport and it needs a little additional funding, then that's a completely different conversation.  But to say the RTA should be free and we should take money from everybody and everything everywhere to make that possible is preposterous.

7 minutes ago, NR said:

I see it's being said that the RTA should be free, (which doesn't make sense to me. we all know nothing is really free), but at the same time saying that the RTA doesn't have enough money. The solutions I'm seeing proposed so that we can have "free RTA" are to raise sales tax; take road repair money, raise gas tax, get rid of RTA police, add more highway tolls, tax the EV's more, tax the "rich" more and raise property tax.  All this instead of actually charging the riders of the RTA.  This makes zero sense.

 

If you're saying that RTA fairs don't cover the total costs of having public transport and it needs a little additional funding, then that's a completely different conversation.  But to say the RTA should be free and we should take money from everybody and everything everywhere to make that possible is preposterous.

 

Or it's costing RTA more in collection and enforcement than they are collecting.