February 4Feb 4 Author 2 hours ago, E Rocc said: How is "transit propensity" determined? Density of housing, jobs or visits is foremost. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 4Feb 4 1 hour ago, MyPhoneDead said: Does the age of vehicles have an effect? I would imagine that while you can probably add gps tracking to older vehicles, having it built in and made to your specifications from the beginning would allow it to be more accurate. Since our buses are much newer than our trains I would venture to guess this is the reason. Since I can track my daughter's location in real time when she has her phone and agrees to it, I wouldn't imagine it's that difficult. Buses would need to take traffic conditions into account, trains do not.
February 4Feb 4 1 hour ago, MyPhoneDead said: Does the age of vehicles have an effect? I would imagine that while you can probably add gps tracking to older vehicles, having it built in and made to your specifications from the beginning would allow it to be more accurate. Since our buses are much newer than our trains I would venture to guess this is the reason. If aviation is any indicator, then no age does not have anything to do with it. Most of the general aviation training fleet was built in 1960-1980, and they've all had ADSB GPS antennae added to them. Anything that touches an airplane you can automatically multiply the price by at least double. I would think you could put an antenna on a train for less than $1000 per unit.
February 4Feb 4 Author 4 hours ago, Cleburger said: I would think you could put an antenna on a train for less than $1000 per unit. I doubt they'll bother doing that to the old rail fleet. I would be surprised if the new trains don't already have GPS. BTW, you don't really need GPS on trains since the trains short out the signal block they're in. And for transit, signal blocks are much shorter than they are for mainline railroads. So you can always track where trains are -- especially if the rail line and the trains are equipped with positive train control, which GCRTA's entire rail system are except for the light-rail branches. If you want to see how a signal block works, connect the two rails in a track with some jumper cables. If it's within the island circuit for a grade crossing, the gates will go down. If you're near a rail traffic control signal, it will go red (a useful thing police should know to do if a vehicle or other object is stuck on the tracks). On the downside, don't do it for long because the dispatcher will see that a signal block is occupied when it shouldn't be and he'll call the local police to investigate. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 5Feb 5 21 hours ago, KJP said: I doubt they'll bother doing that to the old rail fleet. I would be surprised if the new trains don't already have GPS. There's probably even a cheaper way which would involve the drivers having a cheap phone on them with a tracking app.
February 6Feb 6 Author 20 hours ago, Cleburger said: There's probably even a cheaper way which would involve the drivers having a cheap phone on them with a tracking app. That's not going to happen when they institutionally don't trust their drivers. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 6Feb 6 Compiled some of the ideas on here into a map with a few layers and other details. Moved it to the ideas thread so this one doesn't get in trouble.
February 19Feb 19 Author Good article. Rich typically does a good job with giving "a personality" to dry stats. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2025/02/cleveland-rtas-ridership-rebound-whats-behind-the-numbers.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 19Feb 19 2 hours ago, KJP said: Good article. Rich typically does a good job with giving "a personality" to dry stats. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2025/02/cleveland-rtas-ridership-rebound-whats-behind-the-numbers.html I wonder if the redline ridership decreased due to there being no real fare enforcement outside of Tower City and maybe the Airport. The Redline is the only mode of transportation that doesn't require it upon entry. Without proper fare enforcement and payment how would they calculate accurate ridership.
February 20Feb 20 3 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: Without proper fare enforcement and payment how would they calculate accurate ridership. I’ve always wondered how on earth they calculate rapid ridership. I have to assume they take revenue from ticket machines at rapid stops and back-calculate it into rides somehow. I can’t think of any other way they could possibly do it. My hovercraft is full of eels
February 20Feb 20 Automatic passenger counters, surveys, fare collection data, and manual counts. At least according to Gemini.
February 20Feb 20 Author Historically, something like 80-90 percent of Red Line ridership passed through the turnstiles at Tower City. But is that the case anymore? If not, how accurate are the ridership numbers if they are using probabilities to measure the non-Tower City ridership? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 20Feb 20 10 hours ago, roman totale XVII said: I’ve always wondered how on earth they calculate rapid ridership. I have to assume they take revenue from ticket machines at rapid stops and back-calculate it into rides somehow. I can’t think of any other way they could possibly do it. New train cars should have ambassadors on in with a tap to pay system by the doorways for those who purchased a ticket through the app to scan their phones. Speaking of the app I miss the old RTA app, this combined app is clunky.
February 20Feb 20 42 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said: New train cars should have ambassadors on in with a tap to pay system by the doorways for those who purchased a ticket through the app to scan their phones. Speaking of the app I miss the old RTA app, this combined app is clunky. The red line was designed for manned turnstile, pay as you enter the station fare collection. They should return to this as it not only improves fare collection but station security.
February 20Feb 20 2 minutes ago, E Rocc said: The red line was designed for manned turnstile, pay as you enter the station fare collection. They should return to this as it not only improves fare collection but station security. Put these in at every red line station.
February 20Feb 20 19 minutes ago, Ethan said: Put these in at every red line station. I would prefer the more modern version but this would kill 2 birds with one stone.
February 20Feb 20 2 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said: I would prefer the more modern version but this would kill 2 birds with one stone. Anything would be helpful, I like this type because they are basically un-evadable. A lot of the more modern designs are sleeker looking and more complicated, but simply don't solve the problem as well as this classic design. No need to reinvent the wheel. They should put in the cheapest solution that works. If there's a modern solution that's cheaper and can't be jumped, we should use that.
February 20Feb 20 Passenger fares only account for 10-15% of RTA's operating budget. It's such a small amount I say eliminate fare collection and look for extra moneys from the business community or other sources. Hey Jones Day, do you want attorneys and paras to come in more often? Well, now they can't complain about travel costs. Call it a 9-month experiment and see if use goes up and behaviors improve, or things get worse. It's not like homeless, mentally ill, and thugs will start using it MORE if it's free since many avoid payment already, but I could see a growing number of normal people using it, and we'll get a better balance of normals/degenerates. And hire security for the red line for f's sake. I shouldn't have to smell like a tobacco or crack chimney when I get off. Edited February 20Feb 20 by TBideon
February 20Feb 20 6 minutes ago, TBideon said: Passenger fares only account for 10-15% of RTA's operating budget. It's such a small amount I say eliminate fare collection and look for extra moneys from the business community or other sources. Hey Jones Day, do you want attorneys and paras to come in more often? Well, now they can't complain about travel costs. Call it a 9-month experiment and see if use goes up and behaviors improve, or things get worse. It's not like homeless, mentally ill, and thugs will start using it MORE if it's free since many avoid payment already, but I could see a growing number of normal people using it, and we'll get a better balance of normals/degenerates. And hire security for the red line for f's sake. I shouldn't have to smell like a tobacco or crack chimney when I get off. Also security in the red line park-n-ride lots. Most of the lots are covered with broken glass from car break ins.
February 20Feb 20 6 minutes ago, TBideon said: Call it a 9-month experiment and see if use goes up and behaviors improve, or things get worse. It's not like homeless, mentally ill, and thugs will start using it MORE if it's free since many avoid payment already, but I could see a growing number of normal people using it, and we'll get a better balance of normals/degenerates. I'm not so sure about that. People, especially women, will still want to avoid that list, free or not.
February 20Feb 20 3 minutes ago, TBideon said: Passenger fares only account for 10-15% of RTA's operating budget. It's such a small amount I say eliminate fare collection and look for extra moneys from the business community or other sources. Hey Jones Day, do you want attorneys and paras to come in more often? Well, now they can't complain about travel costs. Call it a 9-month experiment and see if use goes up and behaviors improve, or things get worse. It's not like homeless, mentally ill, and thugs will start using it MORE if it's free since many avoid payment already, but I could see a growing number of normal people using it, and we'll get a better balance of normals/degenerates. And hire security for the red line for f's sake. I shouldn't have to smell like a tobacco or crack chimney when I get off. I think the problem is specifically the homeless and mentally ill. Making sure RTA gets their money is a tertiary concern. A mandatory nominal payment to make sure the transit service is a transit service, not a mobile homeless encampment or mental health facility is the best way to accomplish that goal. And accomplishing that goal is necessary to get the broader public to use transit. Particularly the everyone that isn't an able bodied male. I suppose security guards would work too, but the cost of gates vs the amount of security guards that would be necessary would pay itself off so quickly that the smart decision is clear.
February 20Feb 20 34 minutes ago, Ethan said: Anything would be helpful, I like this type because they are basically un-evadable. A lot of the more modern designs are sleeker looking and more complicated, but simply don't solve the problem as well as this classic design. No need to reinvent the wheel. They should put in the cheapest solution that works. If there's a modern solution that's cheaper and can't be jumped, we should use that. I was in DC a couple months ago and they have very jumpable turnstyles. They even have security sitting right next to them and I was amazed at how many people just blatantly jumped over them right in front of security. Security also did nothing to stop them.
February 20Feb 20 13 minutes ago, TDi said: I was in DC a couple months ago and they have very jumpable turnstyles. They even have security sitting right next to them and I was amazed at how many people just blatantly jumped over them right in front of security. Security also did nothing to stop them. Were they private security or sworn (armed) officers. There's a limit to what anyone who isn't the latter can do. That's why some places hire off duty officers (at a major premium BTW).
February 20Feb 20 23 minutes ago, Ethan said: I think the problem is specifically the homeless and mentally ill. Making sure RTA gets their money is a tertiary concern. A mandatory nominal payment to make sure the transit service is a transit service, not a mobile homeless encampment or mental health facility is the best way to accomplish that goal. And accomplishing that goal is necessary to get the broader public to use transit. Particularly the everyone that isn't an able bodied male. But the homeless, mentally ill and criminals aren't paying the fare already. I don't know if it being totally free would turn the trains into an electric homeless shelter, so that's why a pilot program would be interesting. Kansas City buses and street cars have been free since 2020 - I'm curious what they've found. Plus Chapel Hill, Raleigh, Boston and other cities (maybe Akron?) have some free public transport days. Hell, Luxembourg is 100% free. Yeah yeah, I know, apples and oranges, more like apples and pumpkins.
February 20Feb 20 2 minutes ago, TBideon said: But the homeless, mentally ill and criminals aren't paying the fare already. I don't know if it being totally free would turn the trains into an electric homeless shelter, so that's why a pilot program would be interesting. I agree that they're not paying, and I agree that it likely wouldn't get any worse if the trains were made free. What I'm saying is that if it were physically impossible for anyone to board the train without paying, many of the homeless and mentally ill would go elsewhere. Obviously not all, as a train ticket would still be the cheapest way to get a roof over their head, but it would reduce the problem. It's not the entirety of the solution, but I'd argue it's a necessary component of any realistic solution to the problem GCRTA faces.
February 20Feb 20 18 minutes ago, TBideon said: But the homeless, mentally ill and criminals aren't paying the fare already. I don't know if it being totally free would turn the trains into an electric homeless shelter, so that's why a pilot program would be interesting. Kansas City buses and street cars have been free since 2020 - I'm curious what they've found. Plus Chapel Hill, Raleigh, Boston and other cities (maybe Akron?) have some free public transport days. Hell, Luxembourg is 100% free. Yeah yeah, I know, apples and oranges, more like apples and pumpkins. Denver has been testing out free transit months during the summer. DC is trying to make busses free, but still charge for rail/metro usage.
February 20Feb 20 38 minutes ago, E Rocc said: Were they private security or sworn (armed) officers. There's a limit to what anyone who isn't the latter can do. That's why some places hire off duty officers (at a major premium BTW). I'm guessing just private.
February 20Feb 20 25 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said: Denver has been testing out free transit months during the summer. DC is trying to make busses free, but still charge for rail/metro usage. Quite a few cities have been experimenting with free transit. I just don't see what the harm would be if RTA does. Perhaps 9 months is extreme. How about 6? 3?
February 20Feb 20 57 minutes ago, TDi said: I was in DC a couple months ago and they have very jumpable turnstyles. They even have security sitting right next to them and I was amazed at how many people just blatantly jumped over them right in front of security. Security also did nothing to stop them. I thought they added new turnstile barriers last year to prevent it. Must not be high enough to stop the Olympic quality hurdlers. Our experience over many years was the station managers rarely came out of the booth or even look up. https://www.metro-magazine.com/10228550/wmata-completes-new-faregates-at-rail-stations
February 20Feb 20 2 hours ago, Ethan said: Put these in at every red line station. Totally agree that it's ridiculous to have fares and not enforce them. However, the cost of installing these would cut heavily into the revenue increase from fare enforcement. It would also be impossible for Tri-C & CWRU students to use our RTA passes (they charge us a mandatory $95 fee every year for a sticker on our ID) which have to be checked manually by RTA staff. Considering we're getting new light rail-style rolling stock in like a year, wouldn't it be easier to just use onboard fare collection like the Blue & Green lines already do?
February 20Feb 20 17 minutes ago, sonisharri said: Totally agree that it's ridiculous to have fares and not enforce them. However, the cost of installing these would cut heavily into the revenue increase from fare enforcement. It would also be impossible for Tri-C & CWRU students to use our RTA passes (they charge us a mandatory $95 fee every year for a sticker on our ID) which have to be checked manually by RTA staff. Considering we're getting new light rail-style rolling stock in like a year, wouldn't it be easier to just use onboard fare collection like the Blue & Green lines already do? The sticker (and for that matter passes) could have a readable chip. I don't think those are all that expensive anymore. "Papers, please" is likely a deterrent to ridership, Edited February 20Feb 20 by E Rocc
February 20Feb 20 I disagree. For instance the Chicago metra requires passengers showing their passes. I've taken it many times and have never seen a conflict. It's just about enforcement.
February 20Feb 20 14 minutes ago, E Rocc said: The sticker (and for that matter passes) could have a readable chip. I don't think those are all that expensive anymore. "Papers, please" is likely a deterrent to ridership, Yeah I wish RTA had opted for chip readers to begin with, stuff like this would've been easier to implement. Unfortunately they just finished installing QR code scanners systemwide, so we're stuck with transit app tickets rather than direct contactless payment like NYC and NJ have. The Blue/Green lines (outside of Tower City) use the same fare collection as buses though, so I'm not sure how implementing the same system on the Red Line would be any more of a deterrent to ridership. Riders with a ticket would scan at the front of the train and sit down unbothered, and those with a sticker would just flash their ID to the driver. Edited February 20Feb 20 by sonisharri
February 20Feb 20 2 hours ago, Ethan said: Put these in at every red line station. JFC NO NO NO NO NO!!! These things are awful! Prison turnstiles have no place anywhere in society outside of prison. I have such a visceral reaction to these monstrosities because our Milwaukee office has them. It is a soul-sucking, miserable experience to go through them. Horrible, awful, no good, please for the love of Chr**t RTA do not consider this. It is a complete embarrassment that St Loius is installing these. I hate them so much! Generally I am not in favor of faregates, but if someone insists on it, something like this would be much, much better. https://www.masstransitmag.com/safety-security/press-release/55143570/southeastern-pennsylvania-transportation-authority-septa-septa-board-approves-purchase-of-100-full-length-fare-gates-to-improve-transit-security When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 20Feb 20 A bit off topic, but one thing that is annoying and an easy fix is hopping on the middle train at Tower City heading east. It's always unclear if you're on the blue or green line, as I've had a few situations where the outside color changes once I'm inside, and all of a sudden I'm heading to Van Aken instead of Green unknowingly. How hard is it for the conductor to announce CLEARLY which train you're actually on and the destination.
February 20Feb 20 35 minutes ago, sonisharri said: Totally agree that it's ridiculous to have fares and not enforce them. However, the cost of installing these would cut heavily into the revenue increase from fare enforcement. It would also be impossible for Tri-C & CWRU students to use our RTA passes (they charge us a mandatory $95 fee every year for a sticker on our ID) which have to be checked manually by RTA staff. Considering we're getting new light rail-style rolling stock in like a year, wouldn't it be easier to just use onboard fare collection like the Blue & Green lines already do? I'm for whatever best solves the problem. I favor a physical barrier because as others have noted the people required to enforce fare payment often don't want the headache of actually enforcing fare payment. Whether that's a driver or a security guard just watching people jump the gate, reliable enforcement is difficult to ensure. And while these are more up front cost they will pay themselves off in the long run if they can result in less security or a better experience for the riders.
February 20Feb 20 Also it seems I need to remind people that going fare-free is bad policy. It is nearly always better to spend the money that would be required to make a system fare free on instead improving the service. The cost of the fare is not a thing that prevents people from using transit. Quality of the service is. Going fare-free does not enable anyone to get rid of their car, but providing better service can potentially encourage people to go car-free or car-light. Mode shift is the goal, and fare- free transit does not support achieving that goal. Notice that all of the systems being referenced as fare-free are crappy systems in cities with poor transit mode-share. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 20Feb 20 Author 1 minute ago, Boomerang_Brian said: Notice that all of the systems being referenced as fare-free are crappy systems in cities with poor transit mode-share. So we qualify! 😜 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 20Feb 20 1/3 of every train i take here has someone yelling, arguing, harassing or smoking. it's made worse that so few people are in the car. it's not right to force people to sit a half hour in hightened anxiety like that - and people will ultimately choose not to ride. this is a real enforcement issue. whether these are fare jumpers, idk
February 20Feb 20 8 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: JFC NO NO NO NO NO!!! These things are awful! Prison turnstiles have no place anywhere in society outside of prison. I have such a visceral reaction to these monstrosities because our Milwaukee office has them. It is a soul-sucking, miserable experience to go through them. Horrible, awful, no good, please for the love of Chr**t RTA do not consider this. It is a complete embarrassment that St Loius is installing these. I hate them so much! Generally I am not in favor of faregates, but if someone insists on it, something like this would be much, much better. https://www.masstransitmag.com/safety-security/press-release/55143570/southeastern-pennsylvania-transportation-authority-septa-septa-board-approves-purchase-of-100-full-length-fare-gates-to-improve-transit-security I mean I'll take them, they're a lot better than nothing or a standard turnstile, but these are also the perfect example of what I was talking about earlier. A poorly engineered solution that is overly complicated and prioritizes aesthetics over actually solving the problem. I could get through this without paying, and so could most young males (statistically the people most likely to commit crimes). Granted it would be very noticeable and more difficult than jumping a standard turnstile. That makes it much easier for a guard to prevent fare evasion, and that's good, but it's still a far cry from a proper solution like the "prison turnstile" that isn't easily defeated by a motivated fit person, and doesn't require a guard present at all. I'd rather have the turnstile that fully solves the problem than the pretty one, but I'll be content with either. Maybe we can paint the effective version with pretty polka dots? \s
February 20Feb 20 8 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: Also it seems I need to remind people that going fare-free is bad policy. It is nearly always better to spend the money that would be required to make a system fare free on instead improving the service. The cost of the fare is not a thing that prevents people from using transit. Quality of the service is. Going fare-free does not enable anyone to get rid of their car, but providing better service can potentially encourage people to go car-free or car-light. Mode shift is the goal, and fare- free transit does not support achieving that goal. I agree that the cost of the fare is not the biggest barrier to choosing public transit for those who choose not to use it. Better service would surely be more important. But how much does the fare collection system cost? This isn't a left/right debate, it's a does-this-make-financial-sense debate. If it costs 10% of the overall budget and collects 10% of the revenue, it seems like it would be a wash -- except that it's taking time and attention away from other tasks. And what if the fare collection system costs more than it brings in in revenue? The barriers being discussed here, the card readers, the ticket dispensers, the fare-jump chasers, the software "consultants," and so on (the delays on the bus while tickets are collected or fare is collected during boarding, the damage to the system's reputation by bad software or crappy ticket-dispensing machines, etc.) -- I bet those costs are a significant fraction of what ticket sales brings in in revenue, if not actually losing money. If that is the case, then we absolutely should have a fare-free system and focus on improving the experience of taking transit. Other people have reported that even with fare collection there are more significant issues likely keeping people from taking RTA -- 8 minutes ago, Whipjacka said: 1/3 of every train i take here has someone yelling, arguing, harassing or smoking. it's made worse that so few people are in the car. it's not right to force people to sit a half hour in hightened anxiety like that - and people will ultimately choose not to ride. this is a real enforcement issue. whether these are fare jumpers, idk RTA will always probably need to police bad behavior. But it needs to do more policing to make this kind of thing more rare. The discussion about needing barriers at stations to keep the homeless off of transit is kind of cruel. Being homeless by itself is not a problem for my fellow travelers, and having the homeless riding the trains shouldn't be a problem that RTA needs to solve. (Our society does not do a good job of helping the homeless; the community really needs to put more effort into finding ways to help the homeless not be homeless and the mentally ill get the help they need, and neither of those issues are RTA's job to solve.) Homeless people riding the train and not bothering anyone shouldn't be a problem, and those who are bothering people should be talking to RTA security officers.
February 20Feb 20 58 minutes ago, sonisharri said: Yeah I wish RTA had opted for chip readers to begin with, stuff like this would've been easier to implement. Unfortunately they just finished installing QR code scanners systemwide, so we're stuck with transit app tickets rather than direct contactless payment like NYC and NJ have. The Blue/Green lines (outside of Tower City) use the same fare collection as buses though, so I'm not sure how implementing the same system on the Red Line would be any more of a deterrent to ridership. Riders with a ticket would scan at the front of the train and sit down unbothered, and those with a sticker would just flash their ID to the driver. Has anyone tried to use their credit card on the new scanners they have? Most of the newer busses have them, the Tower City stop has them, and many of the other stations have them in a random place. There is a credit card tap decal on them, but I'm always just using the EZfare app. Maybe next time I'll just take the whopping $2.50 risk and test it out.
February 20Feb 20 Disagree. Trains are not shelters, and neither civilian passengers nor RTA crews are caretakers. We should not be forced to stand among bedbugs, piss, s-hit, ejaculate, and deranged behavior just because society failed some people or they failed themselves. No one should be sleeping on seats either. RTA is not a hotel and those who violate its rules need to be expelled. Edited February 20Feb 20 by TBideon
February 20Feb 20 20 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said: Has anyone tried to use their credit card on the new scanners they have? Most of the newer busses have them, the Tower City stop has them, and many of the other stations have them in a random place. There is a credit card tap decal on them, but I'm always just using the EZfare app. Maybe next time I'll just take the whopping $2.50 risk and test it out. Wait you can tap your credit card directly? If so I wish they would have just purchased fare gates that had tap to pay implemented to make it more obvious.
February 20Feb 20 2 hours ago, Willo said: I thought they added new turnstile barriers last year to prevent it. Must not be high enough to stop the Olympic quality hurdlers. Our experience over many years was the station managers rarely came out of the booth or even look up. https://www.metro-magazine.com/10228550/wmata-completes-new-faregates-at-rail-stations Yup those were the ones. In a matter of 15 minutes we saw different groups of people jump over them
February 20Feb 20 53 minutes ago, Foraker said: I agree that the cost of the fare is not the biggest barrier to choosing public transit for those who choose not to use it. Better service would surely be more important. But how much does the fare collection system cost? This isn't a left/right debate, it's a does-this-make-financial-sense debate. If it costs 10% of the overall budget and collects 10% of the revenue, it seems like it would be a wash -- except that it's taking time and attention away from other tasks. And what if the fare collection system costs more than it brings in in revenue? Yeah I think it's important to remember that the primary purpose of fares should be to bring in revenue. Safety cannot be broadly addressed by fare gates alone; many people who cause problems can easily afford $2.50. Placing more staff onboard and at stops could make a big impact though, and maximizing fare revenue can help pay for that. Considering that the Blue/Green lines won't have turnstiles at their stations anyway, it's pretty certain that at least some (if not all) of the trains will already have ticket scanners on them. The cost of fare collection boils down to just turning the scanners on and training drivers to treat fare avoiders exactly the same as they would in a bus. Even if fares are not enforced with 100% accuracy, this would definitely boost revenue.
February 20Feb 20 16 hours ago, roman totale XVII said: I’ve always wondered how on earth they calculate rapid ridership. I have to assume they take revenue from ticket machines at rapid stops and back-calculate it into rides somehow. I can’t think of any other way they could possibly do it. I recall at least on the blue/green line that the drivers will press a button that has an audible beep to tally riders (at least I think that's what they were doing). If 6 people boarded you'd hear it beep 6 times.
February 20Feb 20 I do agree that transit needs to have fares in almost all cases. The CBD circulators like Cincy, Detroit, KC, and others are the exception to me because of the huge value those add to businesses and sales tax generation by getting people to move around the CBD more. Especially in areas with no commuter rail or quality transit option to get downtown. I personally don't have a preference towards fare gates or on board enforcement, but you need something. Either approach can be amazing. Arguably the 2 best transit systems in the Western world right now, Switzerland and the Netherlands, take opposite approaches. Both are the cleanest, most on time, and easiest to navigate in my opinion as well. The Dutch use a lot of Swiss train station tech and signage, which is probably because they realized they could just buy that vs creating something new that likely won't be as good. Switzerland has no barriers to entry at any station. Most busses and trams are simply based on trust during busy hours, but if you are on a train you will absolutely be asked to show an active ticket or pass. You will be fined and potentially arrested without one, no excuse will get you out of it. Most Swiss citizens have free or heavily discounted transit passes through their employers though so it's mainly a tourist problem. These are typical stations in the Netherlands. The first is Utrecht, then Rotterdam. You can not even see trains at most stations without paying, and there are usually police officers around making sure no one is sneaking in somehow. Your credit card or OV chip card, the Dutch transit pass, will work at any station in the country. You tap your credit card upon entry, and again when you exit. It automatically knows how much to charge you based on the stations you passed through. https://maps.app.goo.gl/y3F3paW1XRHWztBD6?g_st=ac https://maps.app.goo.gl/eE9g78kBwYkUZuRJ8?g_st=ac In stations with with metro stops, they will have separate entrances. There are 4 or 5 card tap spots at every tram entrance door as well, with gates that won't open otherwise. One system is mainly a big initial capital purchase and the long term maintenance, the other is an increase to headcount by adding fare checkers and all costs/benefits that come with that. The way transit funding works in the US, the fare gates would probably be the way to go for transit agencies. Both systems can work great if you commit to them, but you have to actually commit to one of them first. Edited February 20Feb 20 by PlanCleveland
February 20Feb 20 16 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said: I do agree that transit needs to have fares in almost all cases. You seem to be disregarding the cost to run the ticket system. Saying that the blue/green trains already have onboard scanners disregards the cost to buy and maintain those scanners in the future. It costs money to have a fare system -- those ticket scanners weren't free. We know what revenue is generated from tickets -- what does it cost to have a ticket system? Does anyone else remember the Xerox ticket machine debacle? https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2012/06/rta_says_fare_machines_dont_me.html What if we assume that the costs of having a fare system significantly exceed RTA's fare revenue. In that scenario, please explain what would make a fare system necessary, and how it would make the transit system better.
February 20Feb 20 4 hours ago, Foraker said: You seem to be disregarding the cost to run the ticket system. Saying that the blue/green trains already have onboard scanners disregards the cost to buy and maintain those scanners in the future. It costs money to have a fare system -- those ticket scanners weren't free. We know what revenue is generated from tickets -- what does it cost to have a ticket system? Does anyone else remember the Xerox ticket machine debacle? https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2012/06/rta_says_fare_machines_dont_me.html What if we assume that the costs of having a fare system significantly exceed RTA's fare revenue. In that scenario, please explain what would make a fare system necessary, and how it would make the transit system better. RTA’s fare revenue significantly outpaces its cost of collection. IIRC Birdsong quoted between $20M and $40M in annual costs to go fare-free (ie that’s the ballpark of net revenue). Going fare-free would require RTA to make service cuts or find new funding streams. And if they did find new funding streams, it would be better to use that money to improve service. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2022/03/cuyahoga-county-has-been-dreaming-of-free-transit-but-rta-officials-say-its-not-a-likely-reality.html?outputType=amp (Not paywalled, at least for me) When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
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