February 20Feb 20 4 minutes ago, Foraker said: You seem to be disregarding the cost to run the ticket system. Saying that the blue/green trains already have onboard scanners disregards the cost to buy and maintain those scanners in the future. It costs money to have a fare system -- those ticket scanners weren't free. We know what revenue is generated from tickets -- what does it cost to have a ticket system? Does anyone else remember the Xerox ticket machine debacle? https://www.cleveland.com/metro/2012/06/rta_says_fare_machines_dont_me.html What if we assume that the costs of having a fare system significantly exceed RTA's fare revenue. In that scenario, please explain what would make a fare system necessary, and how it would make the transit system better. If it costs $30M+ per year to run a fare collection system, then it would make sense not to have one here. But it doesn't. We could probably add 4 fare gates to every rail station and have 10-20 years of maintenance costs in the bank for that price.
February 20Feb 20 will RTA be unifying it's fare collection with this new fleet? Edited February 20Feb 20 by Whipjacka
February 20Feb 20 46 minutes ago, Foraker said: What if we assume that the costs of having a fare system significantly exceed RTA's fare revenue. In that scenario, please explain what would make a fare system necessary, and how it would make the transit system better. I'm actually pretty sympathetic to the idea of fare-free transit lines, especially streetcars and other local circulators that can be strategically financed by benefitting businesses. However, going fare-free on a citywide scale or even just one of the most central lines, especially when federal funding is being slashed every month, will make it a lot more challenging to undertake initiatives to improve the transit system. If the primary goal of a fare system is to actually collect fares (and not, as others have implied, just to subsidize turnstiles to keep homeless people out as long as no one is willing to give them a few bucks), then your question is effectively "if we assume fare collection is not worth it, then why would it be a worthwhile investment?" Then the answer relies completely on the underlying assumption. If instead, we ask "what kind of fare system would result in significant benefits long-term?" then there are a variety of options which can be compared. 46 minutes ago, Foraker said: We know what revenue is generated from tickets -- what does it cost to have a ticket system? Based on this article from Signal Cleveland, it sounds like EZFare ticket readers are bringing in more than they cost. Not sure how paper tickets stack up. Quote In 2023, total sales via EZfare were $7.66 million. The contract renewal itself would cost $1.2 million over two years. https://signalcleveland.org/cleveland-rta-considers-spending-1-2-million-to-continue-ezfare-mobile-ticketing/ Edited February 20Feb 20 by sonisharri
February 20Feb 20 28 minutes ago, sonisharri said: I'm actually pretty sympathetic to the idea of fare-free transit lines, especially streetcars and other local circulators that can be strategically financed by benefitting businesses. However, going fare-free on a citywide scale or even just one of the most central lines, especially when federal funding is being slashed every month, will make it a lot more challenging to undertake initiatives to improve the transit system. I am not a transit expert, but I am a guy on the internet with opinions. And I do use the RTA Red Line when I am in town. FWIF what I would do if I could is make the system fare-free to try and recapture the significant number of people who don't even consider transit. This would be done along with improvements in safety and customer service, and coinciding with the brand new rail cars. Make it safe and attractive. When numbers bounce back the stations themselves become more valuable for retailers or even residential tennants to capture new revenue streams. Then if it can be economically justified you can consider a fare stystem and potentially start charging. But right now it seems an entire generation of customers no longer has RTA on their radar. That's the most important fix.
February 20Feb 20 6 hours ago, TBideon said: Quite a few cities have been experimenting with free transit. I just don't see what the harm would be if RTA does. Perhaps 9 months is extreme. How about 6? 3? The general public isn't avoiding the Rapid because of the cost. They avoid it because of few amount of desirable stops, the slow pace of it, and yes SAFETY on the trains and in the stations
February 21Feb 21 3 hours ago, surfohio said: I am not a transit expert, but I am a guy on the internet with opinions. And I do use the RTA Red Line when I am in town. FWIF what I would do if I could is make the system fare-free to try and recapture the significant number of people who don't even consider transit. This would be done along with improvements in safety and customer service, and coinciding with the brand new rail cars. Make it safe and attractive. When numbers bounce back the stations themselves become more valuable for retailers or even residential tennants to capture new revenue streams. Then if it can be economically justified you can consider a fare stystem and potentially start charging. But right now it seems an entire generation of customers no longer has RTA on their radar. That's the most important fix. Again, the average user isn’t passing on public transit because it costs money. They pass because the frequency sucks, it isn’t dependable, and they are concerned about safety. The Red Line is the most used transit line in the whole state. Eliminating fares would not appreciably improve ridership, because it doesn’t address those main ridership headwinds. And it would blow a hole in RTA’s budget. Increasing ridership will help to address safety concerns. Best bet there is to focus on transit-oriented development and increased frequency (which is also expensive, but generates a much better return in terms of increased ridership, in comparison to eliminating fares). Then strategic extensions to better serve hospitals, which are the largest site-specific ridership generators. All that said, when the new rail cars arrive, I would be in favor of a weekend or even full week of free fares as a marketing tool. We want as many people as possible to know about the new trains! But no longer than that - it is not a long term solution to increasing ridership. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 21Feb 21 ^ well any meaningful investment is going to blow a hole in RTA’s budget though, right? We are discussing hypotheticals obviously that are dependent on some kind of monetary shift.
February 21Feb 21 There’s a huge lack of familiarity with the train system in Cleveland. On numerous occasions, I have directed people to take the train to the airport (which they did not know was an option previously) and were thrilled to have done so. I don’t think safety was an issue for them.
February 21Feb 21 7 hours ago, surfohio said: ^ well any meaningful investment is going to blow a hole in RTA’s budget though, right? We are discussing hypotheticals obviously that are dependent on some kind of monetary shift. Yes, which is why it’s ToD first, which doesn’t require any investment from RTA. After that, the things I’m proposing that would require large investments would meaningfully increase ridership. Those are service improvements that could potentially enable people to get rid of their cars, which would mean meaningful impact their budget. Free fares do not accomplish this. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 21Feb 21 1 hour ago, bwheats said: There’s a huge lack of familiarity with the train system in Cleveland. On numerous occasions, I have directed people to take the train to the airport (which they did not know was an option previously) and were thrilled to have done so. I don’t think safety was an issue for them. That’s fair - I should have included that on my list. Which is why I’m up for a very short free promotion as a marketing tool. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 21Feb 21 1 hour ago, bwheats said: There’s a huge lack of familiarity with the train system in Cleveland. On numerous occasions, I have directed people to take the train to the airport (which they did not know was an option previously) and were thrilled to have done so. I don’t think safety was an issue for them. Touche. I met someone through a friend who works hybrid downtown and lives in Ohio City. They had no clue you could take the red line without having to drive. 🤯 It truly is gonna take a holistic approach to improving ridership though, because on the flip side for some people the barrier is in fact the feeling of safety and not necessarily the convenience.
February 21Feb 21 2 hours ago, bwheats said: There’s a huge lack of familiarity with the train system in Cleveland. On numerous occasions, I have directed people to take the train to the airport (which they did not know was an option previously) and were thrilled to have done so. I don’t think safety was an issue for them. I use RTA to the airport frequently. On the train, I never really feel unsafe. It's the walk to or from the station that I have to weigh out carefully when carrying luggage, laptop, etc. Late night arrivals I'll skip because of other robberies around my station.
February 21Feb 21 8 minutes ago, Cleburger said: I use RTA to the airport frequently. On the train, I never really feel unsafe. It's the walk to or from the station that I have to weigh out carefully when carrying luggage, laptop, etc. Late night arrivals I'll skip because of other robberies around my station. Exactly. Safety needs to be addressed at the stations as well as on the trains. The only ways to do that are a heavy police presence (not just cameras) or controlling access to the station itself. Red line stations are designed to do the latter. It's noteworthy that post 9/11 one of the things the airports did was limited access to the concourses to ticketed passengers.
February 21Feb 21 1 minute ago, E Rocc said: Exactly. Safety needs to be addressed at the stations as well as on the trains. The only ways to do that are a heavy police presence (not just cameras) or controlling access to the station itself. Red line stations are designed to do the latter. It's noteworthy that post 9/11 one of the things the airports did was limited access to the concourses to ticketed passengers. That’s not the ONLY way. By far the best way to improve both the perception of safety and actual safety is to increase ridership. And there are many ways to increase ridership. In NYC, congestion pricing has increased subway ridership and decreased crime on the subway. More riders results in less crime. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 21Feb 21 45 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: In NYC, congestion pricing has increased subway ridership and decreased crime on the subway. More riders results in less crime. Sorry, MAGA says that is bad.
February 21Feb 21 Just now, Foraker said: Sorry, MAGA says that is bad. At the risk of derailing this thread, it’s incredible how stupid that guy is. The positive impacts of de-congestion pricing were immediate and obvious. Best new policy in the country since indoor smoking bans. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 21Feb 21 Just now, Boomerang_Brian said: At the risk of derailing this thread, it’s incredible how stupid that guy is. The positive impacts of de-congestion pricing were immediate and obvious. Best new policy in the country since indoor smoking bans. If Cleveland had a downtown loop, I'd be in favor of congestion pricing (and/or higher parking tax) inside the loop. But yes, we have other priorities -- 11 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said: Again, the average user isn’t passing on public transit because it costs money. They pass because the frequency sucks, it isn’t dependable, and they are concerned about safety. [. . .] Increasing ridership will help to address safety concerns. Best bet there is to focus on transit-oriented development and increased frequency (which is also expensive, but generates a much better return in terms of increased ridership, in comparison to eliminating fares). After a bunch of TOD to increase potential riders, and a downtown loop and Cleveland Clinic connections to increase access to workplace/school/health destinations, then we could revisit the idea of congestion pricing (congestion in Cleveland?!? LOL) or just creating some areas where cars and delivery vehicles are prohibited during certain times.
February 21Feb 21 1 minute ago, Foraker said: If Cleveland had a downtown loop, I'd be in favor of congestion pricing (and/or higher parking tax) inside the loop. But yes, we have other priorities -- After a bunch of TOD to increase potential riders, and a downtown loop and Cleveland Clinic connections to increase access to workplace/school/health destinations, then we could revisit the idea of congestion pricing (congestion in Cleveland?!? LOL) or just creating some areas where cars and delivery vehicles are prohibited during certain times. Sorry, no. We are a LONG way from the required infrastructure to justify decongestion pricing. We would need to have the entire regional rail plan from the early 2000s and at least three subway lines criss-crossing downtown to be able to justify that policy here. The complete list of other US cities where the policy is feasible with realistic service improvements on existing infrastructure: Boston, DC, Chicago, San Francisco, downtown Los Angeles, and Philadelphia. Cleveland goals: eliminate through traffic on Euclid Ave between public square and East 6; Superior Midway (preferably extended west through Public Square and to the bridge), and making East 17 or 18 a pedestrianized, transit-only street. Plus some additional road diets. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 21Feb 21 Could RTA better leverage its real estate holdings to create new income streams, like Playhouse Square does? Example: Ten story commercial and or residential buildings over the W25th and Lorain, W117th, and Van Aken/ Warrensville stations with indoor access to the trains.
February 21Feb 21 Author 22 minutes ago, urb-a-saurus said: Could RTA better leverage its real estate holdings to create new income streams, like Playhouse Square does? Example: Ten story commercial and or residential buildings over the W25th and Lorain, W117th, and Van Aken/ Warrensville stations with indoor access to the trains. Not only they could, but they should. A model is Tri-Met in Portland, OR which is directly involved in TOD project at/near its properties: https://trimet.org/tod/#projects A decade ago, I urged RTA follow Portland's lead. And yes, RTA said "we're not growing like Portland." Defeatism was policy. Hopefully it is not anymore. Ironically, the one place where GCRTA could/should be directly involved in a project is the Westinghouse development. GCRTA's senior real estate guy is James Rusnov who is also a consultant on the Westinghouse project. I sent this to Rusnov..... Another possibility would be to add intersections here with bus stops at the intersections.... An overview of both intersections.... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 21Feb 21 5 hours ago, Boomerang_Brian said: At the risk of derailing this thread, it’s incredible how stupid that guy is. The positive impacts of de-congestion pricing were immediate and obvious. Best new policy in the country since indoor smoking bans. :mustnotgoofftopic....:
February 27Feb 27 A model for transit and economic growth: Greater Cleveland RTA's HealthLine https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/greater-cleveland-rtas-healthline-model-for-transit-economic-growth/95-166e3885-fee1-4833-97b7-78b49ba35b28 This story is the transit equivalent of the jock that peaked in high school and can't let go of old memories.
February 27Feb 27 This article has so many embellishments/inaccuracies that I'm wondering if it's parody. "HealthLine blends the efficiency of rail with the flexibility of a bus, creating a high-speed transit solution along Euclid Avenue." Has he actually been on this bus? "According to RTA, the HealthLine has generated more than $9.5 billion in economic investment along the corridor [by 2018]" Dear Jesus. “The mayor of Chicago visited us to look at what we did here, and they executed on that at Wacker Drive in Chicago.” Is the author talking about the Loop Link disaster? It doesn't even connect to Wacker Drive outside of very briefly crossing it from Union Station.. "With more than 20,000 residents now living downtown and roughly 10,000 in University Circle, experts credit the HealthLine for playing a large a role in shaping modern Cleveland." Oh I'd love to meet these "experts". This article should be pulled. Edited February 27Feb 27 by TBideon
February 27Feb 27 2 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: A model for transit and economic growth: Greater Cleveland RTA's HealthLine https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/greater-cleveland-rtas-healthline-model-for-transit-economic-growth/95-166e3885-fee1-4833-97b7-78b49ba35b28 This story is the transit equivalent of the jock that peaked in high school and can't let go of old memories. It was fun when I encountered those guys who remembered me (I was sort of a "jock" but skinny and not very talented) when I was working in the bar. >:) It sounds like it was written by someone who hasn't lived in town for a decade but found an old BRT press release from 2007.
March 3Mar 3 Author GCRTA orders trains for Shaker-Waterfront lines By Ken Prendergast / March 3, 2025 The Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority (GCRTA) has exercised an option to order an additional 18 new Light Rail Vehicles (LRVs) from Siemens Mobility to replace their aging fleet of trains, according to GCRTA and Siemens today. This adds to previous orders, allowing GCRTA to, at minimum, provide a base-level of service on all three of its rail transit lines by 2028. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2025/03/03/gcrta-orders-trains-for-shaker-waterfront-lines/ "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 3Mar 3 21 minutes ago, KJP said: GCRTA orders trains for Shaker-Waterfront lines By Ken Prendergast / March 3, 2025 The Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority (GCRTA) has exercised an option to order an additional 18 new Light Rail Vehicles (LRVs) from Siemens Mobility to replace their aging fleet of trains, according to GCRTA and Siemens today. This adds to previous orders, allowing GCRTA to, at minimum, provide a base-level of service on all three of its rail transit lines by 2028. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2025/03/03/gcrta-orders-trains-for-shaker-waterfront-lines/ Will there be any color indicators that will tell riders which train they are boarding when the trains are at Tower City, East 55th etc? "The addition of 12 more rail cars will allow GCRTA to have a reserve for maintenance cycling, to handle crush crowds for special events." What happens in the meantime? While we wait for the other 12 cars for this use (which is far from guaranteed now) will we use older trains in the meantime and just increase their frequency since the can't be coupled? Edited March 3Mar 3 by MyPhoneDead
March 3Mar 3 I would assume yes, they show color indicators in the rendering: Edited March 3Mar 3 by Geowizical
March 3Mar 3 As a red line rider who lives in Lakewood currently but planning to move to shaker soon, I love this!
March 3Mar 3 On 2/27/2025 at 9:37 AM, MyPhoneDead said: A model for transit and economic growth: Greater Cleveland RTA's HealthLine https://www.wkyc.com/article/news/local/cleveland/greater-cleveland-rtas-healthline-model-for-transit-economic-growth/95-166e3885-fee1-4833-97b7-78b49ba35b28 This story is the transit equivalent of the jock that peaked in high school and can't let go of old memories.
March 3Mar 3 Author 1 hour ago, MyPhoneDead said: Will there be any color indicators that will tell riders which train they are boarding when the trains are at Tower City, East 55th etc? "The addition of 12 more rail cars will allow GCRTA to have a reserve for maintenance cycling, to handle crush crowds for special events." What happens in the meantime? While we wait for the other 12 cars for this use (which is far from guaranteed now) will we use older trains in the meantime and just increase their frequency since the can't be coupled? Hopefully GCRTA can find the money from the state and/or federal flex funds. If not, it's going to be very tight. But consider this, the last five years was the perfect time for GCRTA to be replacing its rail fleet. It got a massive federal bailout through COVID relief funds. It needed some relief from a drop in fares, but not the $100+ million it got. Sales tax revenues dropped only briefly and not significantly, IIRC. Biden stepped up with a big increase in federal formula funds for transit and Sherrod Brown helped create the rail car modernization fund, from which GCRTA got its largest ever federal grant ($130 million). And it got that funding under contract before F-elon & F Elon dove under the federal hood and started ripping out all of the wires and hoses. We could've lost the rail system altogether if we had Calabresed ourselves any more and delayed pursuing federal funds until last year. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 6Mar 6 Author Why was the Green Line boarding from the reserve-old Shaker Rapid station at Tower City yesterday? Are they still doing it? https://x.com/DylanCarter2004/status/1897647517140955433?t=Q24AuYg6HkE57S4eQBwl4w&s=19 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 7Mar 7 RTA likely to eliminate some higher fares, add tap and pay technology Published: Mar. 06, 2025 By Rich Exner, cleveland.com CLEVELAND, Ohio - Farebox begone. You’ll soon likely be able to just tap your way onto RTA buses and trains with your credit card or smartphone. Adding tap and pay technology is just one of a series of fare changes that unanimously cleared RTA board’s committee as a whole this week with a recommendation for approval when the proposals are taken up during a regular board meeting. The plan also calls eliminating two higher and lesser used fares and capping what registered riders pay to no more than the cost of an all-day, seven-day or monthly card. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2025/03/rta-likely-to-eliminate-some-higher-fares-add-tap-and-pay-technology.html
March 7Mar 7 Not really news, but my friend told me a disturbing story of taking the rapid to a Cavs game last week. While waiting at the w150 station a person who was inebriated and/or experiencing mental health crisis stumbled and fell onto the tracks and was having trouble getting up. My friend pushed the emergency button, talked to someone and told them what was going on (he said they sounded skeptical/annoyed). Thankfully someone else showed up and the two of them together were able to coax the man off the tracks and back onto the platform. The train arrived after a few minutes. I would have thought the emergency call would have at a minimum paused traffic while the situation was evaluated.
March 7Mar 7 2 hours ago, Luke_S said: RTA likely to eliminate some higher fares, add tap and pay technology Published: Mar. 06, 2025 By Rich Exner, cleveland.com CLEVELAND, Ohio - Farebox begone. You’ll soon likely be able to just tap your way onto RTA buses and trains with your credit card or smartphone. Adding tap and pay technology is just one of a series of fare changes that unanimously cleared RTA board’s committee as a whole this week with a recommendation for approval when the proposals are taken up during a regular board meeting. The plan also calls eliminating two higher and lesser used fares and capping what registered riders pay to no more than the cost of an all-day, seven-day or monthly card. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2025/03/rta-likely-to-eliminate-some-higher-fares-add-tap-and-pay-technology.html THANK F*CKING GOD! I have been advocating for tap to pay on here forever. Will the bus driver be able to see if someone has tapped to board the train at each door? I ask because if so this could re-activate all door boarding on the Healthline. But thinking about it, why does RTA allow all door boarding on the trains with no fare checking but not on the Healthline? If BRT is supposed to be a rail alternative why not operate them similarly? Edited March 7Mar 7 by MyPhoneDead
March 7Mar 7 On 2/20/2025 at 1:40 PM, PlanCleveland said: Has anyone tried to use their credit card on the new scanners they have? Most of the newer busses have them, the Tower City stop has them, and many of the other stations have them in a random place. There is a credit card tap decal on them, but I'm always just using the EZfare app. Maybe next time I'll just take the whopping $2.50 risk and test it out. 2 hours ago, Luke_S said: RTA likely to eliminate some higher fares, add tap and pay technology Published: Mar. 06, 2025 By Rich Exner, cleveland.com CLEVELAND, Ohio - Farebox begone. You’ll soon likely be able to just tap your way onto RTA buses and trains with your credit card or smartphone. Adding tap and pay technology is just one of a series of fare changes that unanimously cleared RTA board’s committee as a whole this week with a recommendation for approval when the proposals are taken up during a regular board meeting. The plan also calls eliminating two higher and lesser used fares and capping what registered riders pay to no more than the cost of an all-day, seven-day or monthly card. https://www.cleveland.com/news/2025/03/rta-likely-to-eliminate-some-higher-fares-add-tap-and-pay-technology.html Well I guess that answers my question on whether or not those work. Great to hear. Having to download another app to give your credit card info to is another ridership barrier gone.
March 7Mar 7 The Greater Dayton RTA began exclusively using tap to pay in 2021 and it was a big improvement over the cash-based system because it reduced boarding times, eliminated the need for paper transfer tickets, and automatically caps daily and monthly fares so you never have to pay more than a traditional daily or monthly pass.
March 7Mar 7 2 hours ago, JohnOSU99 said: The Greater Dayton RTA began exclusively using tap to pay in 2021 and it was a big improvement over the cash-based system because it reduced boarding times, eliminated the need for paper transfer tickets, and automatically caps daily and monthly fares so you never have to pay more than a traditional daily or monthly pass. Unfortunately the tap to pay feature won't be included in the fare capping announcement here.
March 7Mar 7 6 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: THANK F*CKING GOD! I have been advocating for tap to pay on here forever. Will the bus driver be able to see if someone has tapped to board the train at each door? I ask because if so this could re-activate all door boarding on the Healthline. But thinking about it, why does RTA allow all door boarding on the trains with no fare checking but not on the Healthline? If BRT is supposed to be a rail alternative why not operate them similarly? Because BRT isn't rapid. It's not just signal prioritization, it's the number of stops. The limited number of stops on the red line allows some semblance of boarding control, even without controlled access stations.
March 7Mar 7 1 hour ago, E Rocc said: Because BRT isn't rapid. It's not just signal prioritization, it's the number of stops. The limited number of stops on the red line allows some semblance of boarding control, even without controlled access stations. BRT lines being added to the rapid maps when you are on the train to me says that they view the BRT lines as a rapid equivalent. To me the number of stops makes no difference because if I'm not getting off at Tower City or the Airport I can have a free ride but the Blue line, which has the same number of stops as the Red Line requires payment on board. They should restore all door boarding because they have no true reason as to why one line as all door boarding and the other doesn't. I can see if the entire rapid system had all door boarding and the Healthline wasn't but it is not it's very inconsistent. Edited March 7Mar 7 by MyPhoneDead
March 29Mar 29 In this video Los Angeles recently received their order of 64 HR4000 Series Heavy Rail trains for a total of $230 Million. We are ordering 60 Light Rail for $393 million. Did prices skyrocket that much for such a dramatic difference? Seems like we got a bad deal. Edit: I see they ordered them back in 2016 but that is still a massive difference. Edited March 29Mar 29 by MyPhoneDead
March 29Mar 29 4 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said: In this video Los Angeles recently received their order of 64 HR4000 Series Heavy Rail trains for a total of $230 Million. We are ordering 60 Light Rail for $393 million. Did prices skyrocket that much for such a dramatic difference? Seems like we got a bad deal. Edit: I see they ordered them back in 2016 but that is still a massive difference. Answers: No and Yes.
April 2Apr 2 On 3/29/2025 at 3:35 PM, Willo said: Answers: No and Yes. How did we let ourselves get cheated by that much? Lol
April 2Apr 2 Author I rode LA's Red Line two weeks ago. I was surprised at how badly their trains are deteriorating. Our Red Line trains are 10 years older and, cosmetically, appear in much better shape. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 3Apr 3 15 hours ago, KJP said: I rode LA's Red Line two weeks ago. I was surprised at how badly their trains are deteriorating. Our Red Line trains are 10 years older and, cosmetically, appear in much better shape. That is especially strange given the consistency in LA's climate vs the 100 degree swings and road salt that RTA's trains encounter over the course of a service year.
April 3Apr 3 2 hours ago, Cleburger said: That is especially strange given the consistency in LA's climate vs the 100 degree swings and road salt that RTA's trains encounter over the course of a service year. Not sure if KJP's observation was inside or outside of the cars, but I wonder if LA's trains get more use by passengers, which could contribute to quicker deterioration.
April 3Apr 3 1 hour ago, Mov2Ohio said: Not sure if KJP's observation was inside or outside of the cars, but I wonder if LA's trains get more use by passengers, which could contribute to quicker deterioration. Salty winds from the ocean, year round?
April 3Apr 3 Author 5 hours ago, Cleburger said: That is especially strange given the consistency in LA's climate vs the 100 degree swings and road salt that RTA's trains encounter over the course of a service year. I've heard that the deterioration on Cleveland's Red Line trains does come from salt but not from roads since it has no grade crossings. Instead, it comes from the salt used on RTA station platforms. 1 hour ago, E Rocc said: Salty winds from the ocean, year round? Except that LA's Red Line trains run almost entirely in subways, the exception being in an near the yards south of Union Station. And that's pretty far inland. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 3Apr 3 1 hour ago, KJP said: I've heard that the deterioration on Cleveland's Red Line trains does come from salt but not from roads since it has no grade crossings. Instead, it comes from the salt used on RTA station platforms. Except that LA's Red Line trains run almost entirely in subways, the exception being in an near the yards south of Union Station. And that's pretty far inland. Wouldn't it be cooler and more humid in the tunnels? With salt already in the air from ocean breezes?
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