Ohio should find new, creative ways to funnel more money to public transit. Adding a few dollars to vehicle registration fees or levying a small tax on tire purchases and directing that to public transit have helped elsewhere.

 

This is a silly cop-out by the PD.  I have no objections to their examples, but new fees and taxes are hardly "creative" or "new" and, other than political cover, don't seem any better than using money from the general fund. 

 

KJP, I am really intrigued by your #2 (conversion to Trolleybuses).  I recall Jerry citing $30MM as the additional cost to build the ECTP as electric.  Even that cost might be justifiable in hindsight given the benefits (zero use of diesel), but are there in fact cheap ways to electrify routes?  Considering the entire rebuild of the street (including new light poles) that was going to happen in any case, that $30MM sounds a lot higher than I would have guessed.

 

Posted by Gottseidank on 07/01/08 at 10:36 a.m.

 

Why not do what really is needed and greatly expand service with reduced prices?

 

 

Great idea! I'd also to pay off my mortgage and quit my job, but something tells me both of those things ain't gonna happen at the same time either :-D

 

 

Electric trolley buses seem a decent idea. I'd like to know what the actual power requirements are for electric trolley buses (I looked around the world wide interweb a bit and couldn't find it).

 

Off shore wind turbines, according to recent "wind mapping" (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,1615.msg179287.html#msg179287) could be feasable for independent power generation of electric bus lines, depending on the power consumption of the buses, and I believe something like up to 1/2 of electric power can get used in transmission.

 

At 20mph wind speeds, (which seems attainable from the wind map) a 2.5 mw offshore turbine could still generate something like 1.3 mw, if I did the conversions properly. Lose half of than in transmission, you still have 650,000 watts of generated power per turbine.

http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/wind_turbines/en/downloads/ge_25mw_brochure.pdf

 

I'm sure there's much more to it (like the capital investments KJP listed above, which hopefully might be somewhat defrayed the aforementioned "grants"), it seems worth a harder look. Not to mention it would probably be a green energy PR boon.

 

 

 

There are two different ways of providing overhead electric wires -- obtrusive and expensive or unobtrusive and inexpensive. The plan for the Euclid Corridor's overhead wires was the former, supported by a substantial system of catenary supports like these for two different light-rail lines (Cleveland and Pittsburgh)....

 

 

 

But there is a much less obtrusive way to do it, and Dayton did it with its electric trolley bus routes, such as this route to the north side...

 

 

^Thanks, that's very interesting.  Not electrifying the ECTP seems like a bit of a wasted opportunity now :(.

4. With more people riding transit (many of whom are new middle-class riders), boost advertising sales activities. Too many buses still lack on-board advertising or wrap ads. Same deal in RTA stations -- more ads! Concrete retaining walls along the rapid lines that are graffiti-stained today could be painted with advertising instead. The advertiser could also clean up the area around their ad and get some goodwill PR out of it (as could RTA).

 

One thought that has occurred to me in the past is along these lines.  Rather than having the advertiser itself clean up the station, why not use the advertising revenues to pay an RTA employee to come by for an hour or two once or twice a week to do it.  To me, it seems like a regular "special cleaning session" would lead to a higher level of general cleanliness than having a corporation do it sporadically, although that does nullify the goodwill aspect.  Two stations where I think this would be particularly effective are W. 98 and W. 25- they both have fences or walls facing the platforms with no advertising.  University Circle is another possibility, especially because there are still the little plywood boards where advertising posters used to be affixed.

It's called the West Shore Corridor, but thanks for liking the project!

 

Sorry about messing up the name.  West Shore Rail!  West Shore Rail!  That project seems to me to be the biggest no brainer for commuter rail in the Cleveland area.  The right of way is not isolated from the user community by a barrier of industrial uses.  You could WALK to downtown Lakewood and Rocky River from stations along the route.  Shuttles or a circulator could server Crocker Park and/or Avon Commons from stations along the route.  It has the potential to support commutes to downtown Cleveland but also serve shorter trips with different purposes, ie entertainment and shopping.  I am all for it.  I used to look at the NEO Commuter rail study site from links on GCRTA.ORG from time to time, but it never got updated. 

Quote from KJP  "But there is a much less obtrusive way to do it, and Dayton did it with its electric trolley bus routes, such as this route to the north side...". 

 

The suspension of the powerlines from wires is what I remember from my "youth" of the trackless trolley buses here in Cleveland.  I hope it is not dementia setting in, but I do remember that.

 

 

From 9-10 a.m. Tuesday, July 8, GM Joe Calabrese and Finance Director Gail Fisk will be the guests on the Sound of Ideas program on WCPN 90.3 FM, National Public Radio. They will speak about RTA's financial situation and take calls from listeners.

 

i dont know how feasible it would be, but the idea about using wind turbines to power electrified city transit is an exciting one. talk about going green, that would really be something. for their next major project, i wish rta would embrace more progressive thinking like this instead of jumping straight to more brt.

http://wp2.medina-gazette.com/2008/07/08/news/brunswick-loses-rta-route/

 

Brunswick loses RTA route

July 8th, 2008

By ALLISON WOOD

Staff Writer

 

MEDINA — The CEO of the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority told Medina County commissioners Monday the agency must cut a bus route that stops in Brunswick.

 

.....

 

Wood may be reached at 330-721-4050 or [email protected].

Then don't move to Brunstucky, people!  :-P

On average, 72 riders a day get on the bus at Brunswick, Calabrese said, with the route costing RTA $66,000 a year to operate.

 

I'm no math whiz...but 72 riders per day times $6 round trip times 250 work days per year is well in excess of $66,000 per year...Even $4 round trip would cover it.  In any case, I wonder if demand from Brunswick was strong enough for RTA to charge fares at cost...or even a little over to cross-subsidize routes serving more transit-dependent riders.

An answer to an earlier question: what is the cost of a two-car train vs. a one-car train?

 

I found out...RTA has not fully calculated this. The electrical and car maintenance costs are significant. Also, on light rail, we cannot operate a two-car train without an additional operator. We are working to install video and intercoms on the light rail, which will allow two-car, one operator operation.

and *coughwifipleasewificough*

On average, 72 riders a day get on the bus at Brunswick, Calabrese said, with the route costing RTA $66,000 a year to operate.

 

I'm no math whiz...but 72 riders per day times $6 round trip times 250 work days per year is well in excess of $66,000 per year...Even $4 round trip would cover it.  In any case, I wonder if demand from Brunswick was strong enough for RTA to charge fares at cost...or even a little over to cross-subsidize routes serving more transit-dependent riders.

 

You're right. Even at $1.75 each way, it's only $3,000 a year shy. I'm sure Brunswick could find a $3k allocation.

 

Unless the $66k figure is a shortfall after revenues?

I believe that Joe C. on NPR this morning said that the average fair per ride is 91 cents.  The reason being that most riders have monthly passes or day passes and use them a large number of times.  I would imagine that senior/child and other discounts impact that as well.  I don't know if you can plunk 91 cents into the same equation we're using to determine the income of the line and have it provide a valid number, but that would only be about half the operating cost.

^That's true, but I'd guess fairbox recovery from Brunswick is higher than the system average because of the higher fare ($3) and probably fewer students.  But maybe still not high enough.  Or maybe AMN is right that the route costs $66,000 in subsidies, not in strict operating costs.

 

Either way though, I wonder if there is a fare high enough to make this route (or a scaled back van version) revenue neutral despite pricing out some customers.  If RTA drops out, maybe there's room for private operators to find this price point.  NYC and I'm sure other cities are full of private, for profit jitneys that fill the holes that transit agencies can't/won't serve.  $4 gas makes things interesting.

An answer to an earlier question: what is the cost of a two-car train vs. a one-car train?

 

I found out...RTA has not fully calculated this. The electrical and car maintenance costs are significant.

 

I have no doubts that they are. I also recall seeing some RTA data which showed the productivity passenger-wise on rail was much higher than on bus -- even on a lightly used rail system as RTA's.

 

Also, on light rail, we cannot operate a two-car train without an additional operator. We are working to install video and intercoms on the light rail, which will allow two-car, one operator operation.

 

That's great news. Thanks.

Very strategic journalism by the PD on RTA this week.  First "RTA considers raising fares, cutting routes and jobs" then the article about cutting to services out of county, then to end with this story:

 

EDIT: see story above

 

story link http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2008/07/cashstrapped_rta_gives_free_ri.html

 

 

Are there any plans by RTA to step up maintenance at the W25th street rapid station?  The stair way in particular is in horrible shape.  Very rusty handrails and treads (is a fresh coat of paint really asking for much?  It's standard metal maintenance that appears to not have happened since the station was built) and an antiquated landing size that doesn't allow enough room for two people to pass eachother at the same time.  I would think for a relatively new station this wouldn't be a problem, but they are definetly poorly laid out.

Fare Box issues were not limited to the new fair boxes.  I stopped buying monthly passes years ago because with just a few free rides each month, it was cheaper to buy the 10-Ride cards (now 5-ride since RTA inexplicably stopped selling 10-rides). 

 

Two other issues have lead to reduced fair collection:

Some, including one of my own, 5-Ride fare cards started counting over after a few rides.  After 2 or 3 rides, you'd put the card in and it would print over top the first ride and would start counting down again.  Several people have told me they got 7-9 rides off one card because of this.

 

Also, when they rolled out the new park-and-ride busses (numbered 1701, 1702...), they could not figure out how to fit the new fare boxes on the bus, so they ran the busses for several weeks with no fare box.  I know some riders were waiting for that bus to show up because they knew it would be free.  I am not sure why RTA did not just leave the busses in the garage until they adapted the fare boxes to fit on the bus.

I purchased some all day passes awhile back.  When I got around to finally using them, I noticed they said 'must be used by 6.01.08'  Why the expiration date?  I can see 'must be used by 12.31.08'.  ??

Not sure why they expire, but they will exchange them for newer passes at the RTA customer service office in Tower City.

So lately I've been riding the bus to work instead of catching the W25 rapid b/c it's been hot and I don't like sweating during my little walk!  Anyways, when did redline trains start having the very antiquated computer generated voice announcing the stops and even bus transfers?!  :clap: Despite it sounding like something progressive in the mid '90s, it could be quite nice in letting passengers know and even understand the connections at each station.

 

My only concern:

 

Is it really difficult to have the announcements corresond the the correct stop?  Letting me know the Ohio City arrival and  connections as we pull eastbound into Tower City does not accomplish anything! Also, why does it play multpile announcements at once--staggering 2-3 Ohio City station announcements within 15 seconds of each other--making it impossible to understand.

 

Is our bus automated announcement system pre-recorded w/ an average rest in between each stop?  Is this why sometimes I get on the #22 at Lorain/Fulton and it's somewhere in the W.60s still?  What system does the CTA in Chicago use?  When I was in school, hardly ever were the announcements wrong--even on the busses.  Are there sensors at each stop or does the driver/conductor press a button evertime there's a stop/station?

 

I'm not trying to ridicule RTA for streamlining the public transportation experience but really, if it's not going to work properly, what's the use?  It looks worse in my opinion.

 

Thanks and hopefully this is new so all of the kinks will be fixed!  :-)

The automated announcement system to announce stops rarely works well in my experience on busses and trains.  Some bus drivers still call out stops, but with the accoustics on a bus, he's practically talking to himself.

I have never heard an automated announcement on the trains unless it is a new feature.  I have to rely on my interpretation of the muffled, barely understandable stop announcement made by the operators.  Or at least my familiarity of the area is what helps.  It gets annoying and it is not good for people that don't ride often.

I believe the announcements are an ADA compliance.

I noticed them for the first time on the #26 bus. They were loud enough to hear and were given in advance of the stops -- except for the West Boulevard Rapid station which was announced after the fact.

 

I've noticed them this week on the #75X but they are too quiet to hear.

I think we can all agree this system will be great once the kinks are worked out.  Most drivers were not calling out stops, though RTA policy says they should.

FYI, I will be on the rest of the afternoon...be nice.

That's just asking for trouble, Jerry! ;)

On average, 72 riders a day get on the bus at Brunswick, Calabrese said, with the route costing RTA $66,000 a year to operate.

 

I'm no math whiz...but 72 riders per day times $6 round trip times 250 work days per year is well in excess of $66,000 per year...Even $4 round trip would cover it. In any case, I wonder if demand from Brunswick was strong enough for RTA to charge fares at cost...or even a little over to cross-subsidize routes serving more transit-dependent riders.

 

That figure should be 36 AM trips and 36 PM trips. I have talked to the reporter and subsequent Medina stories will reflect this.

"Are there any plans by RTA to step up maintenance at the W25th street rapid station?"

 

I will pass along your comments.

 

 

Fare Box issues were not limited to the new fair boxes. I stopped buying monthly passes years ago because with just a few free rides each month, it was cheaper to buy the 10-Ride cards (now 5-ride since RTA inexplicably stopped selling 10-rides).

 

Two other issues have lead to reduced fair collection:

Some, including one of my own, 5-Ride fare cards started counting over after a few rides. After 2 or 3 rides, you'd put the card in and it would print over top the first ride and would start counting down again. Several people have told me they got 7-9 rides off one card because of this.

 

Also, when they rolled out the new park-and-ride busses (numbered 1701, 1702...), they could not figure out how to fit the new fare boxes on the bus, so they ran the busses for several weeks with no fare box. I know some riders were waiting for that bus to show up because they knew it would be free. I am not sure why RTA did not just leave the busses in the garage until they adapted the fare boxes to fit on the bus.

 

Thanks for the observation..I passed it along

Is it really difficult to have the announcements corresond the the correct stop?  Letting me know the Ohio City arrival and  connections as we pull eastbound into Tower City does not accomplish anything! Also, why does it play multpile announcements at once--staggering 2-3 Ohio City station announcements within 15 seconds of each other--making it impossible to understand.

 

Is our bus automated announcement system pre-recorded w/ an average rest in between each stop?  Is this why sometimes I get on the #22 at Lorain/Fulton and it's somewhere in the W.60s still?  What system does the CTA in Chicago use?  When I was in school, hardly ever were the announcements wrong--even on the busses.  Are there sensors at each stop or does the driver/conductor press a button evertime there's a stop/station?

 

RTA officials say: We just began testing the Heavy rail announcements. Based on your comments, we still have work to do on rail.  On the buses (as well as the rail), we have two types of announcements, timed messages and location messages. Timed messages are new and will periodically announce things like "don't put packages on seats, stand behind the line, exit the rear door, etc."  Location-specific messages are primarily stop announcements. They are based on the location of the bus, typically making the announcement shortly after departing the previous stop.  We continue to have some problems with malfunctioning GPS units and odometers which are critical to locating the vehicle."

 

"CTA uses  a system on the rail that requires the operator to push a button to trigger the next announcement. I am not sure what is being used on the buses."

Thank you so much for looking into all of this Jerry!!!  :clap:

I was on a #6 Westbound around the CSU area that thought it was on Warrensville Center Road yesterday after work...

 

I did notice the new messages about leaving packages on seats this morning on the Red Line

Jerry or Jetdog, can we PLEASE get someone to wash/clean the walkways at the Brookpark rapid station?  It smells so bad of urine I have to hold my breath during part of the walk.  It's been like this for about 2 weeks.  The wooden/deck part isn't the smelly part, it's the 2nd part where it's concrete. 

 

Also, is there any way for the drivers to turn off the new announcement about "please do not place packages..."?  Because we get the announcement EVERY TIME the car has come to a stop and then starts up again.  So, if the driver has to stop the car 3 times in between, say, Brookpark and Puritas, you hear the announcement 4 times.  By the time we get downtown it's like 800 times. 

I was on the Red Line yesterday between TC and Triskett and heard the "packages" announcement 8 times.  Probably too often, but since they are working on the system I'd think it will get better as they work out the problems.

Hi Jerry,

 

I know we touched on this earlier, but I thought I would ask again.

 

When flying into hopkins there are signs that say "rapid transit" however, I dont believe that visitors to the area know what that means. 

As you can see.  Rapid Transit to Downtown Cleveland could mean many things.  Is it possible to change the signage at the entrance and on each concourses to include the word "train"?

 

Is it possible to change the wording to read "RTA (Rapid Transit) Trains to Downtown Cleveland"?

 

I'll use this picture at Midway airport as an example.

 

 

"Is it possible to change the wording to read "RTA (Rapid Transit) Trains to Downtown Cleveland"?"

 

Adding "Trains" is fine and sure, I can see why it's needed*. After that, it's overkill and if someone is such a f#cking numbskull they need things THAT spelled out for them, I don't WANT them using our transit system! While we're at it, maybe it could read "RTA (Rapid Transit aka Public Transportation aka much cheaper than a taxi) Train (aka the thing on rails) to Downtown Cleveland (you know, the place with big buildings and sh!t."). You have the international "train" symbol, you have "transit"... I'd rather my tax dollars help people who have a clue first. :roll: 

 

Front page lead story in today's print edition

 

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/green/chi-express-busjul11,0,2044717.story

^

Includes a video with Jerry giving commentary

 

Life in the fast lane: CTA eyes Cleveland's buses

Chicago set to test its own express lanes, which are cheaper than rail projects

 

 

...........

 

[email protected]

 

 

Hi Jerry,

 

I know we touched on this earlier, but I thought I would ask again.

 

When flying into hopkins there are signs that say "rapid transit" however, I dont believe that visitors to the area know what that means. 

As you can see.  Rapid Transit to Downtown Cleveland could mean many things.  Is it possible to change the signage at the entrance and on each concourses to include the word "train"?

 

Is it possible to change the wording to read "RTA (Rapid Transit) Trains to Downtown Cleveland"?

 

I'll use this picture at Midway airport as an example.

 

IIRC, in the past we were discussing the sings in the terminal that said "RTA."

Thanks Florida Hombre.

 

Maybe RTA could take a look at all signage so it's universal or in synch with the wording other transit agency around the world are using.  Granted i don't want to use the word "metro" as commonly used in Europe.

 

I'm not trying to cause a problem, but it has been addressed here and our observations and suggestions are to help.

Thanks to the 24 bus driver who stopped for me this morning outside of Wendy's on Wanrrensville Center.  The blue line was late arriving at Van Aken (issues with fare boxes delaying the train along the way), hence I was late catching the 24.  I ran off the train as it was pulling away.  I waved at her while waiting at the light and she motioned at me to run across the street and she would grab me.  Granted, it was a nice day and the 2 mile walk to work would have been fine with me (who needs to be at work on time?) but it was definately nice of her to wait for me. 

Thanks Florida Hombre.

 

Maybe RTA could take a look at all signage so it's universal or in synch with the wording other transit agency around the world are using.  Granted i don't want to use the word "metro" as commonly used in Europe.

 

I'm not trying to cause a problem, but it has been addressed here and our observations and suggestions are to help.

  Just got back from NYC again today and was picking up my bag when I overheard someone asking if there was easy way to get to downtown other than cab.  When I told them that there was a train line that went directly downtown they were like "oh, didn't know there was a train in Cleveland".  I KNOW some of you will argue the point with me...but WE are used to the term "rapid transit"...many others from other places aren't.  How hard is it to just simply state on signs in the airport "Trains to downtown"...easy to understand and universal!!!!!  This would be SO easy to rectify and would help RTA tremendoulsy for ridership.  I wonder how many other people "had no idea" that would have used the system? 

Sorry MayDay, but I agree with MTS on this one. Yes, you really do have to dumb it down for people. And for international visitors, I don't know if rapid transit translates well, but "train" is a simple, international term that translates in any language.

I think people don't know we have a train-period.  It has nothing to do with signage b/c they don't even know to look for the train/rapid transit sign when they arrive at CLE. 

 

 

I think people don't know we have a train-period. It has nothing to do with signage b/c they don't even know to look for the train/rapid transit sign when they arrive at CLE.

 

 

That is a PR problem, one with which I agree, but the signage problem remains.  I agree with the others, you really have to dumb it down/use universal language in a place like an airport.  Dumb people, children traveling alone, foreigners, there are lots of people who just don't know what "rapid transit" is - if I weren't from here I might see that and think who knows, maybe it's something like Super Shuttle and it will be $25.

In case anyone missed it:

 

:-(

 

:-) (aka I agree that it would help to add "trains" - but JUST that):

 

:roll: