Thanks for the update. I would love to have been in the meeting where they came up with this.

 

Oh Lawd. Knowing you, you probably would have pulled out a magic wand and broken into a rant on the state of downtown retail!

 

Only if it was a meeting about downtown retail and someone dismissed all my downtown retail policy suggestions with silly cartoons.  Then I'd have to bring out the wand, yes.

 

Now that we're done with that other thread, I hope we can come up with a new way forward on this beeping issue.  Imagine an out of towner, at the tourist center on the square, asking what all the beeping is about, and some local says it's so we can tell when buses are turning.  I'm not sure what could make us all look dumber, as a people.

 

How much more audible is this beeping, at street corner level, than the engine of the bus?  Do these really add enough to justify themselves?  How is anyone supposed to realize what this sound indicates?  Why wouldn't people tune it out if they spend considerable time downtown?  Will these be shut off for festivals or speeches?  Was any input sought about giving downtown Cleveland a new soundtrack?  Because a plane just hit a house in Buffalo, do all airplanes need a barbershop quartet tied to the fuselage so people know to get out of their house when it's coming?

I agree!  I believe the beeping really brings our city's urban "atmosphere" down a few notches.  We have a lot of people in town for the Rock 'n Roll Induction and what a bizarre way of introducing out-of-towners to our mass transit.

 

Is there evidence this beeping buses thing has worked in another city somewhere?  And I agree with the above post -- I live AND work downtown.  Eventually I'll tune out this "beeping" as background noise.

 

No rhetoric...  :wink:

I read that, too .. some people said some relatively positive things about the beeping .. why weren't THOSE included, PD???

 

Aside from all that, are they even allowed to just quote people from this forum without our permission??

I read that, too .. some people said some relatively positive things about the beeping .. why weren't THOSE included, PD???

 

Aside from all that, are they even allowed to just quote people from this forum without our permission??

 

I was kinda wondering the same thing...  But I guess this is technically a public site.

I wonder if there will be an uptick in UO traffic because of the quote.  It was described as a "transportation forum," which isn't the most enticing thing they could have said.

I was wondering the same thing, are they allowed to use my quote without my permission.  What are the blog laws on that type of stuff?  If I publically blog it does that mean it is public information at that point.  Please somebody tell me i can sue the PD!  :-D

 

Also it said something about sending complaints to the RTA, anybody specific?

Perhaps they should give us all padded helmets and water wings (you know in case we accidentally fall in Lake Erie).

I agree that beeping buses is probably not the best way to solve this problem.  But like Urbanlife and JPOP said this is thinking about a problem from a different angle.  Which should be appreciated even in a terrible form.  I have faith that darwin will weed this out as well.

That's what I'm doing.  I really want them to provide us all with helmets and water wings!  I'm just thinking from a different angle, here.

 

Either that, or massive inflatable bumpers on the front of all the busses.  But that might not work because then it would be too much fun to let the bus hit you.  Oops, did I evaluate an idea before attempting implementation there?

 

How about sirens and flashing lights going continually on every bus- nobody gets run over by a fire truck!

They should put a strobe light on the busses, like they have on the shaker trains.  How are deaf people suppose to "hear" this?

That's what I'm doing.  I really want them to provide us all with helmets and water wings!  I'm just thinking from a different angle, here.

 

Either that, or massive inflatable bumpers on the front of all the busses.  But that might not work because then it would be too much fun to let the bus hit you.  Oops, did I evaluate an idea before attempting implementation there?

 

How about sirens and flashing lights going continually on every bus- nobody gets run over by a fire truck!

 

Hahah. 

 

Especially in the aftermath of what transpired last week, safety is of the utmost importance.  With that being said, if we live in a city where people cannot understand to look both ways before crossing the street, and therefore require the moving vehicle to obnoxiously beep for every turn, we might as well throw in the towel. 

 

Of course safety is of the utmost importance, my (not really very original) point is that a world of absolute safety would be absolutely ridiculous.  This is, sorry RTA, a big step in the absolutely ridiculous direction.  IMO, of course.

They should put a strobe light on the busses, like they have on the shaker trains.  How are deaf people suppose to "hear" this?

 

Strobe lights cause seizures, I thought.  Random notices like stobes or buses beeping can certainly be nuisances, but they can also be counterproductive by creating white noise and confusion.  Like someone mentioned before, every time someone uses their car horn gratuitously, it's like crying wolf.  People become less attuned to the horn sound as a danger signal.  They start to assume the horn means some lazy person has arrived to pick up a friend.  Similarly, if beeping means "I'm on Public Square" rather than "I'm getting run over," it serves little purpose.  A bus going around a corner is not an event worthy of fanfare.

Of course safety is of the utmost importance, my (not really very original) point is that a world of absolute safety would be absolutely ridiculous.  This is, sorry RTA, a big step in the absolutely ridiculous direction.  IMO, of course.

 

I wasn't mocking, I was agreeing.  The whole idea is ridiculous.

 

**Of trying to guarantee absolute public safety. 

Well maybe after RTA runs this pilot and gets input from drivers, business owners, community boards, residents and riders, they will make adjustments.

 

As a light sleeper, now you all know how I feel about the bells and whistles when trains go my crib!

If people would cross when the walk signal tells them to, this wouldn't be an issue....

If people would cross when the walk signal tells them to, this wouldn't be an issue....

 

AMEN!

If people would cross when the walk signal tells them to, this wouldn't be an issue....

 

Well, it would still be an issue, because the bus and the pedestrian are both told to occupy the same space at the same time.  If a bus is turning and waiting for a green light to do so, that green light will come at the same time the walk sign does.  So the timing of the lights is dangerous.  One party is expected to ignore its signal, and that is bad news for any communications system.  The safest way to solve it is for pedestrians to get their own time to cross, when parallel vehicle traffic is not green.  But that would slow everything down too much.  Maybe we should try the "scramble crossings" idea mentioned in another thread.

If people would cross when the walk signal tells them to, this wouldn't be an issue....

 

Geez, everybody here is quick to jump to conclusions.  If the bus was turning left, there is a very good chance that the man was legally crossing the street with a walk signal on the left side of the intersection.  The real problem here is the bus driver making a left turn without checking for pedestrains.  Every single left turn I make, I check the crosswalk instantly as soon as I determine there is no oncoming traffic.  If the mirrors are preventing the bus drivers from being able to effectively do this, then they need to be fixed.  If the bus drivers are simply turning left as soon as there is a gap in oncoming traffic, then they need to be trained better and fired for mistakes like this.  The only time a pedestrain can be in the wrong in a situation like this is if there is a left turn arrow, in which case the sign would say Don't Walk for them.  However, when there is no left turn arrow, the driver making the left turn must yield to both oncoming traffic and pedestrains legally crossing the street on the left-hand crosswalk.

If people would cross when the walk signal tells them to, this wouldn't be an issue....

 

I was prepared with a response, but I'm afraid it would take this discussion WAAAY off topic!  :-D

This sort of thing virtually never happens (at least I don't think).  Millions of people cross streets every day with no such incidents.  To go and change the process, over a likely .0000001 occurrence, would be, imo, absurd.  Hell, why don't we eliminate cars?  There are thousands of car related accidents, deaths, arrests, etc every year.  We could eliminate this problem by eliminating cars.  The absurdity of this is akin to the absurdity of changing pedestrian crossings.

The sound is exactly that of a delivery truck moving in reverse.  This sound really is ridiculous and honestly makes me want take the extra time to walk to the rapid.  Extremely annoying onboard as well.

Masek on a late lunch break...

 

Once something is posted here, it is fodder for anyone who wants to use it. The fact that the PD quoted from this site is actually complimentary, as it shows they respect the posters and their intelligence levels -- something you cannot say about many Internet sites.

 

I do not respond to all posts, but I do read all posts...even the ones that call me a liar.

 

 

The only time a pedestrain can be in the wrong in a situation like this is if there is a left turn arrow, in which case the sign would say Don't Walk for them. However, when there is no left turn arrow, the driver making the left turn must yield to both oncoming traffic and pedestrains legally crossing the street on the left-hand crosswalk.

 

From everything I've read, the pedestrian was crossing legally.  And while a pedestrian may be wrong by jaywalking or crossing against the light, it's still illegal to hit them with your bus.  It doesn't MATTER if they're in the wrong, you still have to look for them and not hit them with your vehicle.  I mean, what if it was a dog, who doesn't know the traffic laws.  If it's in the wrong, you just drive over it?  It honestly doesn't matter if not one person ever jaywalked again, ever, you still can't hit them with your bus because you weren't paying attention or couldn't see well or the sun was in your eyes or it was the only opening in traffic or whatever else. 

Sorry, I don't actually know who's at fault here - it's just a frustration of mine when driving around the city.  I probably would've hit numerous people crossing illegally by now if I wouldn't have been the one paying attention....  But that discussion is for another thread. 

 

A curiousity of mine, though - how many people have been hit by cars in public square compared to buses?  All you ever really hear about are buses, but the media probably has a sway on that.

Ive seen the video where the pedestrian was struck by the bus. It shows that the pedestrian did in fact have the walk sign, shows the bus turning left and then coming to a sudden stop. The accident occured out of screen on the bottom but you can see the last half of the stopped bus. However the pedestrian never turned his head to check that there was no traffic coming from any other direction. I AM NOT SAYING THE PEDESTRIAN IS AT FAULT SO PLEASE DONT JUMP ON MY CASE FOR IT, but just because someone has a walk sign doesnt mean they are 100% safe in the crosswalk. You always need to be aware of your surroundings when crossing any street. A human is a lot smaller, lighter, and more fragile than a moving vehicle.

From everything I've read, the pedestrian was crossing legally. And while a pedestrian may be wrong by jaywalking or crossing against the light, it's still illegal to hit them with your bus. It doesn't MATTER if they're in the wrong, you still have to look for them and not hit them with your vehicle. I mean, what if it was a dog, who doesn't know the traffic laws. If it's in the wrong, you just drive over it? It honestly doesn't matter if not one person ever jaywalked again, ever, you still can't hit them with your bus because you weren't paying attention or couldn't see well or the sun was in your eyes or it was the only opening in traffic or whatever else.

 

Exactly. I totally agree.

I know what you mean.  I've crossed the street many times with my Mom when she thought it was unsafe and I've said, "But I have the right of way" and she replies, "I'll have that chilseled on your headstone."  Gallows humor indeed given what has happened, but yes, you should be aware.  However, legally, the onus to be aware is on that of vehicles, pedestrians do have the right of way, and particularly if they are crossing at the right time.  Given this driver already hit one person, there should have been no way she should have ever been allowed to drive a bus again.  But there are ways to get around the rules, unfortunately.  If you are in the military and crash a plane, you are never allowed to fly again.  Unless you're GW Bush, when you get to crash THREE different times and still have permission to fly.  It's unfair that the world works this way, for sure.

Does anyone else think that adding these incessant dinging noises will only anger a public whose image of RTA is already soured?  The pedestrian accident in Public Square last week is still fresh in the minds of Clevelanders... and now RTA is forcing everyone to listen to a chorus of dinging buses around town?  Sounds like a public relations nightmare.

Does anyone else think that adding these incessant dinging noises will only anger a public whose image of RTA is already soured?  The pedestrian accident in Public Square last week is still fresh in the minds of Clevelanders... and now RTA is forcing everyone to listen to a chorus of dinging buses around town?  Sounds like a public relations nightmare.

 

Oh, for cryin' out loud.  We get it, you don't like them!  You've stated here and on cleveland.bomb.  ::)  ::)

 

I've had to listen to it for years.  Again, lets give the pilot a chance.

You've had to listen to them for years?  My condolences...  :-)

Does anyone else think that adding these incessant dinging noises will only anger a public whose image of RTA is already soured?

 

This sounds like a ridiculous, melodramatic statement. I mean, is this beeping shattering windows or causing people's ears to bleed?

 

Is it really that bad?

I thought it sounded like the police sirens in London. Maybe that was due to the echoing of all the beeping coming from several directions.

 

I hope this is just a test, because it certainly seems to be a failure. Yes Jpop, it's that bad.

It is that bad.  And I've already noticed that bus drivers are now not using their turn signals, or turning them on at the last second, so that these things are less annoying.  So this pilot is not going to be saving any lives.  Busses are going to get hit by cars not knowing they are turning.

I especially love hearing the beeping noise late at night or really early in the morining...this is an awful idea.

I know what you mean. I've crossed the street many times with my Mom when she thought it was unsafe and I've said, "But I have the right of way" and she replies, "I'll have that chilseled on your headstone." Gallows humor indeed given what has happened, but yes, you should be aware. However, legally, the onus to be aware is on that of vehicles, pedestrians do have the right of way, and particularly if they are crossing at the right time. Given this driver already hit one person, there should have been no way she should have ever been allowed to drive a bus again. But there are ways to get around the rules, unfortunately. If you are in the military and crash a plane, you are never allowed to fly again. Unless you're GW Bush, when you get to crash THREE different times and still have permission to fly. It's unfair that the world works this way, for sure.

 

I was responding to someone who said this wouldn't have happened if pedestrians crossed legally.  I surely wasn't saying it's OK to hit a pedestrian that is jaywalking.

 

I actually think it is safer to cross halfway between intersections instead of at intersections.  You are usually more aware because you know you must check for cars instead of relying on a Walk light, and you don't have to worry about turning traffic.

Yes it is really, really bad.  Standing in PS today I couldn't even figure out which bus was making which noise.  It comes from everywhere, it echos off everything, it is annoying as sin.  Some one is going to have a seizure(sp) from these things.

Then I take my statement back, I guess.

 

I guess I'm just used to living in a noisier environment where this type of thing doesn't stand out as much to me.

The problem is that the environment here isn't that noisy, but for the beeping.  It's awful.  And if you're on one of those buses, it's even worse.  It sounds like you're at McDonalds and they're ignoring all the orders on their screen, so the computer is getting madder and madder at them.

 

And Jam40jeff is right that it is often safer to cross against the light.  The actual traffic situation is a lot more important.  It may sound weird but I also think it's safer to cross in the middle of a block instead of at an intersection.  Take 10 minutes to observe traffic... not only does the intersection get a lot more of it, it's less predictable there because people are turning. 

The problem is that the environment here isn't that noisy, but for the beeping. It's awful. And if you're on one of those buses, it's even worse. It sounds like you're at McDonalds and they're ignoring all the orders on their screen, so the computer is getting madder and madder at them.

 

Now everyone's going to wonder why they're suddenly craving Big Macs. :)

 

(They still make those, right??)

And Jam40jeff is right that it is often safer to cross against the light.  The actual traffic situation is a lot more important.  It may sound weird but I also think it's safer to cross in the middle of a block instead of at an intersection.  Take 10 minutes to observe traffic... not only does the intersection get a lot more of it, it's less predictable there because people are turning. 

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but that's actually what I meant about halfway between intersections (middle of the block).  Crossing against the light at an intersection is a good point as well though, although you still have right turn on red people to worry about.  The middle of the block is easiest when traffic isn't extremely heavy because of the fact that nobody is turning.

I thought you meant medians.  Medians help too.

If the beeping makes people start craving Big Mac's, then McDonald's should start giving away earplugs as an incentive to get people to stop for lunch!

If the beeping makes people start craving Big Mac's, then McDonald's should start giving away earplugs as an incentive to get people to stop for lunch!

 

Brilliant!

It is Rock Hall Induction week... maybe the beeping could be changed to snippets of hit music.  The #45 is turning at Public Square, maybe we could hear a little Skynyrd.  The #26 is cruising down Detroit and changes lanes... we hear a little REM.

:-)

 

 

These boots are made for walkin'

I just heard the beeping for the first time today while on the 39 and im not impressed at all. The beeping wasnt just at turns, but EVERY SINGLE STOP triggered the beeping, probably due to the bus driver putting the hazard lights on. There were a few rumblings on the bus about how annoying the beeping had become just in the one trip.

Hey, how is ridership and service frequency on the Health Line doing? Does RTA still run local buses on Euclid as well?

^ Ridership increases on the HealthLine are in the 40 percent range. There are 3 local bus routes that also operate on Euclid Avenue.

^Wow, that is great to hear....has it caused a significant drop in the Red Line ridership?