At the end of the line, as the operator walks through the train to get to the other end, he or she is supposed to check for lost and found items. Some of them also pick up newspapers, etc. if time permits.

 

 

One of them probably enjoyed a cold, unopened 20oz bottle of Diet Coke I left on the #55 one hot day.

 

Then again, you guys probably know exactly how many times people actually download the thing and might tell me you can trace 2/3 of the downloads to UO members procrastinating at work :).

 

Me likey. :)

The system map posted on the RTA site still shows the circulators and probably some other routes or segments no longer in operation.

 

That is being worked on as we speak...well, we are not really speaking, but you know what I mean. The new map will reflect changes being made on April 4.

As with most things, there is always a contest between those who break the law and those whose job it is to enforce it.  Police get radar guns, speeders get radar detectors.  Police get lasers, speeders get jammers, etc.

 

The non-payers on RTA have figured out the easy way to get around not paying their fare, and I've observed this so many times now, I think that RTA should probably either save the money they pay to the transit police who go around checking for tickets, or they should figure out a different method of checking and enforcing payment.

 

When approaching a stop with transit police waiting to board, the offenders simply exit the train as the transit police board.  To make avoidance complete, if there is a waiting train going the other way, they just exit the car and get on the train going the other way, assumedly to get off at the next stop and re-board going their original direction, on a car without transit police.  I've seen lots and lots of people seeing the transit police at an upcoming stop, doing some kind of "oh sh*t" look and then moving to the opposite end of the car where the transit police plan to board, and making a quick exit.  Thus, everyone left on the train magically all have a paid/legit pass.

 

I mentioned this to the transit policeman on my train this morning, pointing out that several people who obviously didn't have passes had just exited the train and then boarded the WB train to avoid them, and he ignored me, so I thought I'd post it here.

 

Perhaps someone should stay behind on the platform to make those who are exiting show their legit pass?  In fact, if someone was posted at every exit making people show their passes in order to get out to the street, you wouldn't have to have ANYONE on board the trains.  Yes, it would slow people down who are exiting, but, as with the turnstyles at TC, people would quickly adjust and those with legit passes would have them ready to show at exit.  I think this would be a much better use of transit police than the more than random checking that is done now.

 

^ is being shared with the Transit Police chief.

Thanks JMasek, I'll be anxious to hear the response.

From APTA's 2009 Q3 ridership data (http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2009_q3_ridership_APTA.pdf):

 

From Q3 2008 to Q3 2009:

 

Red Line ridership down 19% (by far the biggest decline for a US heavy rail systems)

Blue/Green Line ridership down 18%

Bus ridership down 18% (don't know if this includes HL)

 

Ouch.  Ugly numbers.

 

Whoa! That's horrific...

Any possible explanations besides the easy one: the County's economy, esp its core city, where most riders are, sucks?

Service cuts.

That doesn't explain the decline in Red Line ridership. In fact the service cuts should have caused Red Line ridership to increase as RTA is running fewer suburban buses into the central city and instead turning them at Red Line stations.

If people are choosing to drive rather than taking two-seat rides, it might.

Then the Red Line ridership shouldn't have fallen as much as the buses, as SOME people will be taking the two-seat rides and help make up for any losses solely attributable to the Red Line.

Looks like RTA (at least rail) is in free fall.  Surprising considering how much better rail was doing than the busses durring the run up in fuel prices.  What could account for this?

Do the train operators count passengers like bus drivers do, or is count based on paid fares?

Looks like RTA (at least rail) is in free fall. Surprising considering how much better rail was doing than the busses durring the run up in fuel prices.   What could account for this?

 

I guess you missed that bus ridership is also down 18 percent.

 

Do the train operators count passengers like bus drivers do, or is count based on paid fares?

 

Yes, it's the same, so some passengers are counted more than once.

 

Same thing happens when the Cuyahoga County Engineers count traffic at intersections. If they have traffic counters at more than one intersection and you drive through two of those intersections, your car gets counted twice.

Then the Red Line ridership shouldn't have fallen as much as the buses, as SOME people will be taking the two-seat rides and help make up for any losses solely attributable to the Red Line.

 

I never said that reduced bus service is the only explanation, so please don't act like I did.  I merely pointed out that cutting 20% of your service across the board (including decreasing the frequency of the Red Line) is likely to contribute to a drop in ridership.  It's one of several pieces of the puzzle, and you know that, KJP.

Calm down. This isn't a big deal to me.

The overall nature of the declines makes me think once again: the Greater Cleveland economy.  Maybe the Circulator cuts had some effect, but I'd doubt this much... The Red Line has had service shutdowns as well as the off-peak reduction from 15 to 20 min intervals since the beginning of Puritas station construction... Still, these numbers seem more extreme than what these cuts would cause... It still seems like: fewer jobs, fewer people living in neighborhoods (w/ the killer foreclosures) = fewer people traveling within the County.  Chance are, you'd probably find fewer auto trips (if we could accurately measure such a thing) within the County during the work week.

I'm guessing this current recession is causing our little region to BLEED population once more, not unlike the loss we saw in the 1970's as tens of thousands left for the sunbelt construction jobs etc....

 

Get ready for the census data and a wake-up call for Cleveland/Cuyahoga County. 

Where are these people going?  Who's got a good economy right now?  Where are they getting the money to move far away?

^ I have often asked the same thing. Who, who supposedly moves out of "poor Cleveland" and the county, is affording the big moves and homes and new lifestyles?

 

Second question, but serious one.....

 

Does the above report indicating ridership decrease look at a national perspective of transit, or is it local?

 

 

 

Lastly, I want to comment about some posts farther up the thread about litter on trains/buses and in stations, along right of ways..etc. The following questions/comments are for Jerry and RTA.. Are you ready RTA?

 

I guess I will focus more on the obvious: The vehicles and stations. If you want to reduce litter on trains why does it seem so difficult to fathom the idea of a NO OPEN CONTAINER/EATING policy on the vehicles? Is there a policy? and if so, why is it not enforced? Dirty trains and buses is a contributing factor that could deter ridership.  I know it sours my desire to ride. I am not saying they (vehicles) have to be spotless at all times but we're far from that point--and by striving for that goal, even if we got 70% there would be a wondrous achievement!

 

Also, if the excuses will be lack of staff/funding to fix the problem...then remove any, if any, vending machines from stations---as this simply encourages litter that we already do not have control of. It is the same logic as us building more roads when we cannot maintain we already have.

 

I just see no excuse for this trash issue if the proper rules are set and enforced. I am currently in Sydney taking trains daily (as I have a lot in the past as well)...where there are hundreds of thousands of more riders, longer trains, more stations, lots of careless people too...and seemingly understaffed in their own right as I have not yet witnessed anyone employed by City Rail walking through the trains... Yet, the trains and stations are typically very clean. Also, they are having transportation budget issues as well as I learned attending a local Greens Party Meeting. 

 

So, with a staff and budget that is proportionate to the service, (as I am asking if we achieve through cuts?) we should be ale to achieve some marginal results. From the looks of things often, I honestly feel that RTA simply does not give much a hoot about this, does not make the connection between these factors and lost riders....and it reflects all the way down to their employees. While all that may be unfounded, it is simply the perception I am left with--and perception is  important in making good impressions to potential riders, visitors, and existing customers.

 

 

Anyway, I would appreciate your addressing this issue and implementing some changes.

 

 

Where are these people going? Who's got a good economy right now? Where are they getting the money to move far away?

 

I travel to Dallas all the time for business-economy there is humming.  I'm told by the locals it's the number one growth market in the US in terms of population influx, housing starts, jobs etc.  Houston and Austin are also growing.

I can tell you this, the Shaker Line used to pick me up at 7:40 or 8:40 and get me downtown by 8 or 9.  Now with the same pickup time, it arrives downtown about 5-10 minutes after the hour.  That doesn't fly.  A lot of this is due to maintenance, the waiting during single track intervals, and non-maintenance, or whatever forces it to go 5 mph over those two bridges.  But there are minimum service expectations, and if it doesn't get you to work at the top of the hour, you have to take the earlier train which makes it effectively a much longer commute.  Same point as with 3-C... transit service is either practical or it fails.

 

What is the deal with those 2 bridges between 93 and 79?  These are the ones where the train has to go 5 mph.  What happens if it goes faster?  I've looked down at the bridge structure of the unpainted one and it's horrendous.  Several plates are rusted through to daylight.  It's probably the worst bridge I've seen in use anywhere, and the 5 mph seems like a fairly drastic measure taken to keep using it.  How safe are these bridges, and what is being done to rectify the situation?  It's hard to believe this partcular stimulus package, with its stated goals, would provide nothing.

Does the above report indicating ridership decrease look at a national perspective of transit, or is it local?

 

EC, you can click on the report, it won't bite ya ;)

 

It's from the American Public Transit Association and reports ridership data, by mode, for all of the major transit systems in the country.  RTA's % loss in ridership is the worst or near the bottom for every mode (HR, LR and bus).  If you look at the numbers,  it's also a reminder how paltry LR and HR ridership are in Cleveland compared to pretty much every other serious transit system in the country.  Ridership on the young Phoenix LR line (a single line, I believe) is three times higher than Blue/Green line ridership. 

 

At the bottom of it, RTA's rail lines are burdened by atrocious routing, a lethal combo of (1) lack of downtown circulation (one stop on the edge of the CBD) and (2) weak residential neighborhood penetration (exacerbated by neighborhood change).  My hunch is that in aggregate, quarter mile walking radii around RTA rail stops would reveal a surprisingly low population density and park and ride is not enough to make up the difference, given our lack of traffic congestion.

 

 

I can tell you this, the Shaker Line used to pick me up at 7:40 or 8:40 and get me downtown by 8 or 9. Now with the same pickup time, it arrives downtown about 5-10 minutes after the hour. That doesn't fly. A lot of this is due to maintenance, the waiting during single track intervals, and non-maintenance, or whatever forces it to go 5 mph over those two bridges. But there are minimum service expectations, and if it doesn't get you to work at the top of the hour, you have to take the earlier train which makes it effectively a much longer commute. Same point as with 3-C... transit service is either practical or it fails.

 

What is the deal with those 2 bridges between 93 and 79? These are the ones where the train has to go 5 mph. What happens if it goes faster? I've looked down at the bridge structure of the unpainted one and it's horrendous. Several plates are rusted through to daylight. It's probably the worst bridge I've seen in use anywhere, and the 5 mph seems like a fairly drastic measure taken to keep using it. How safe are these bridges, and what is being done to rectify the situation? It's hard to believe this partcular stimulus package, with its stated goals, would provide nothing.

 

I have wondered that as well.  My thinking is always something like "if this bridge is gonna fall, I want to be on it for as little time as possible!" as the train crawls over it.

^Agreed.  We have commuter rail masquerading as LR/HR.

^Agreed.  We have commuter rail masquerading as LR/HR.

 

Well put.

 

 

RTA has been issuing rider alerts warning of delays east of TC on the rail lines during certain off-peak hours (http://www.riderta.com/nu_ridersalerts_list.asp?listingid=1344)

 

But 327, you're saying morning rush hour travel time from SS to TC has regularly been taking much longer than the 13 minutes scheduled ?  If so, RTA should probably indicate this on its web site.  Maybe more info about how long this construction is supposed to last so people know it's not forever.

I believe the fare increases and negative public opinion have eroded the redline ridership (along with the others).  Most people feel RTA is just not worth the price anymore, considering whatever problems people face in taking it.  Whether it's dirty trains or buses, not liking the people they are riding with and how they behave (loud music, smelly food, taking up whole seats when not necessary, foul language from teenagers), the increased travel times due to schedule changes, routes being cut that they used, forcing a work around that they don't like (a 1-seat to a 2-seat ride now, for example), perceiving RTA to be poorly managed and uncaring about people's welfare, combined with several fare increases over the past couple of years, and people are just fed up. The cynicism and negative comments I hear on board the redline on an almost daily basis are just scathing.  The people I ride with seem to actively hate RTA and only seem to take it because they either have no choice, or find it is still marginally better than driving; I would have to add myself to the latter category. I only continue to take it because it's marginally better than driving.  I drove downtown today and am paying $12 to park in my building, and another probably $2-5 to park at my doctor's office at the clinic, because I cannot afford the huge amount of time it would take me to take the healtline to and from my appointment.  I cannot afford to be gone from work that long without negative consequences, and that's just too bad.

 

I would seriously take down all those 2007 posters about it being the best transit system in the country immediately if I worked for RTA.  All they do is cause loads of negative, sarcastic comments.

Is RTA still planning on rolling out the stupid talking buses?  I was walking down Adelbert yesterday when I heard "Wha wha wha wha wha" and thought to myself "Who's the dumb@ss proclaiming something on a loudspeaker on top of their car?"  It took until the bus got right next to me for me to realize it was talking and saying "Caution, bus turning" even though the bus wasn't turning - it just had its blinker on (I thought they were changing it to steering wheel activated?).  So seriously, I had no idea the bus was talking until it was all up in my business - at least with the beeping you know its a bus!

But 327, you're saying morning rush hour travel time from SS to TC has regularly been taking much longer than the 13 minutes scheduled ?  If so, RTA should probably indicate this on its web site.  Maybe more info about how long this construction is supposed to last so people know it's not forever.

 

It takes 20-25 minutes.  Morning rush.  Lots of random stoppage and creepage, not just on those bridges.  It's like driving on 480 in traffic except there's no traffic, no visible obstacle.  It rarely takes less than 20 minutes anymore.  This is a big deal for me and the rest of the Shaker Square crowd because our pickup time is 20 minutes before the hour... which makes a ton of sense if the ride is actually 13 minutes.  But it's not.

 

There are also frequent issues with the trains themselves breaking down... more often in the morning than otherwise, for whatever reason.  One time last month our train literally caught fire and we had to switch off to another one at 79th.

 

Is RTA still planning on rolling out the stupid talking buses?  I was walking down Adelbert yesterday when I heard "Wha wha wha wha wha" and thought to myself "Who's the dumb@ss proclaiming something on a loudspeaker on top of their car?"  It took until the bus got right next to me for me to realize it was talking and saying "Caution, bus turning" even though the bus wasn't turning - it just had its blinker on (I thought they were changing it to steering wheel activated?).  So seriously, I had no idea the bus was talking until it was all up in my business - at least with the beeping you know its a bus!

 

Oh. My. God.

One time last month our train literally caught fire and we had to switch off to another one at 79th.

 

My train has smelled like something burning so many times, to the point that people are looking around at each other and someone will say "do you smell something burning?", it's too many times to count.  But you can never see/pinpoint a cause, and then it disappears.  It seems to coincide with approaching stops.  This is another type of thing that adds to people not wanting to take the rapid.

^ Ours was bad enough, with the smoke, that people were huddling at the other end of the train.  You couldn't breathe.  Brakes must've gotten oil on em.

The 12 bus takes about 30 minutes from Shaker Square to Public Square, and stops several dozen times including at the very long light at E.55/Woodland/Kinsman.  The rail trip shouldn't take any more than 15 minutes max, if the track were in decent condition.  It's only about 6 miles.  It's not like there are tons of grade crossings - there are none on that stretch, and it's not like people are holding up the train to pay the fare on the train since the inbound train is pay on exit. 

The 12 bus takes about 30 minutes from Shaker Square to Public Square, and stops several dozen times including at the very long light at E.55/Woodland/Kinsman. The rail trip shouldn't take any more than 15 minutes max, if the track were in decent condition. It's only about 6 miles. It's not like there are tons of grade crossings - there are none on that stretch, and it's not like people are holding up the train to pay the fare on the train since the inbound train is pay on exit.

 

I agree.  It's scheduled at 12-13 minutes, and it shouldn't take much more than that even at rush hour.

I agree too.  We need RTA to agree.  The only times it has taken less than 20 minutes is when the operator fudges on the 5 mph bridge rule and nothing else happens.  But the operators are becoming increasingly compliant with the bridge rule, and other hangups are occurring with increasing regularity.  The train is still by far my best option... and I stopped believing the schedules long ago.  It's just annoying that what is obviously a commuter service now arrives downtown at a commuter-unfriendly time.

Question for Jerry, how long will there be single track/delayed service during peak times between Tower City and Woodhill?

So seriously, I had no idea the bus was talking until it was all up in my business - at least with the beeping you know its a bus!

 

It was "all up in your business"?? Dear, I never figured you for a ghetto talker.... 

Honestly, I bet the same amount of people are riding, but 18% of the riders from last year realized that they simply don't have to pay. They only check tickets at TC, when you get off. As a taxpayer I'm upset they don't have A person at every station selling tickets, ensuring safety of riders, not letting people in if they don't have a ticket. Yes i realize that costs money but you gotta spend money to make money. Create some more jobs.

^I do wonder about RTA's counting techniques.  RTA was one of the only agencies that didn't provide average weekday ridership to APTA.  From past exchanges with RTA, they don't seem to have station-specific boarding info either.

So seriously, I had no idea the bus was talking until it was all up in my business - at least with the beeping you know its a bus!

 

 

It was "all up in your business"?? Dear, I never figured you for a ghetto talker.... 

 

 

Hahaha, I've spent the majority of the past 8 years of my life in the City of Cleveland, so I've got a little ghetto in me!

Honestly, I bet the same amount of people are riding, but 18% of the riders from last year realized that they simply don't have to pay. They only check tickets at TC, when you get off. As a taxpayer I'm upset they don't have A person at every station selling tickets, ensuring safety of riders, not letting people in if they don't have a ticket. Yes i realize that costs money but you gotta spend money to make money. Create some more jobs.

 

Yep.  Did you see my earlier post about this, last week?

I'm sure I did although i don't remember it specifically, but I know from people on here to people I know, always say u only have to pay on the rapid if u get off at TC, wake up RTA!!!

As with most things, there is always a contest between those who break the law and those whose job it is to enforce it.  Police get radar guns, speeders get radar detectors.  Police get lasers, speeders get jammers, etc.

 

The non-payers on RTA have figured out the easy way to get around not paying their fare, and I've observed this so many times now, I think that RTA should probably either save the money they pay to the transit police who go around checking for tickets, or they should figure out a different method of checking and enforcing payment.

 

When approaching a stop with transit police waiting to board, the offenders simply exit the train as the transit police board.  To make avoidance complete, if there is a waiting train going the other way, they just exit the car and get on the train going the other way, assumedly to get off at the next stop and re-board going their original direction, on a car without transit police.  I've seen lots and lots of people seeing the transit police at an upcoming stop, doing some kind of "oh sh*t" look and then moving to the opposite end of the car where the transit police plan to board, and making a quick exit.  Thus, everyone left on the train magically all have a paid/legit pass.

 

I mentioned this to the transit policeman on my train this morning, pointing out that several people who obviously didn't have passes had just exited the train and then boarded the WB train to avoid them, and he ignored me, so I thought I'd post it here.

 

Perhaps someone should stay behind on the platform to make those who are exiting show their legit pass?  In fact, if someone was posted at every exit making people show their passes in order to get out to the street, you wouldn't have to have ANYONE on board the trains.  Yes, it would slow people down who are exiting, but, as with the turnstyles at TC, people would quickly adjust and those with legit passes would have them ready to show at exit.  I think this would be a much better use of transit police than the more than random checking that is done now.

 

 

Here's my earlier quote in case anyone missed it.  Jerry said he would bring it up to the powers that be.

I hear VERY negative things about RTA from friends and colleagues who work and/or live downtown.  The agency has an extremely poor image in the community right now.  The signs proclaiming they are "The Best In NA" simply lead to sarcastic comments from everyone who reads them.  I initially thought they were a good idea, but now I just hear people making fun of them.  If RTA were the best in North America, ridership wouldn't have plummeted as much as we've seen.

I rode the trolley yesterday and the driver pulled into the Tower City stop and about about 4 or 5 people got on.  The driver pushed the counter button machine that beeps about a dozen times.  I don't know if the trolley ridership stuff is ever released, but those numbers HAVE to be skewed!

For what's it's worth, I think I read that RTA was going to start taking those "best transit system" signs down.

 

I didn't mean to start or fuel a dump on RTA session with my post about ridership.  I do believe there are some very-low-cost service improvements they could make, and think they've made some awful decisions of late (the fare machines, talking buses), but don't know how much that really hurts ridership. They are really in a long term bind as a result of county population and economic trends, more so than just about any other transit agency in the country.

I don't think they're taking the signs down... the giant "Best Transit in NA" signs on RTA's HQ windows on W. 6th have replaced the "2007" with the word "Award."  I think they're staying.

^ http://www.cleveland.com/tipoff/index.ssf/2010/02/regional_transit_authoritys_no.html

 

Spokesman Jerry Masek said Calabrese had forgotten that he'd agreed with the agency's marketing folks two weeks earlier that all of the stickers will start being removed from RTA vehicles.

 

Thank you Jerry (seriously).

^I do wonder about RTA's counting techniques. RTA was one of the only agencies that didn't provide average weekday ridership to APTA. From past exchanges with RTA, they don't seem to have station-specific boarding info either.

 

Not surprising for the transit system which, until a year ago, lost (probably) 10s of thousands of dollars because of poor fare collecting techniques... Wait, what do I mean by a year ago, ... UOers, among others, are reporting many, many Red Line fare cheaters in light of the seeming total lack of roving RTA Transit Police enforcement under the new POP fare system.

What is the deal with those 2 bridges between 93 and 79?  These are the ones where the train has to go 5 mph.  What happens if it goes faster?  I've looked down at the bridge structure of the unpainted one and it's horrendous.  Several plates are rusted through to daylight.  It's probably the worst bridge I've seen in use anywhere, and the 5 mph seems like a fairly drastic measure taken to keep using it.  How safe are these bridges, and what is being done to rectify the situation?  It's hard to believe this partcular stimulus package, with its stated goals, would provide nothing.

 

I'm glad someone else asked the Q about those bridges.  The Blue/Green Lines were closed off peak for about 2 weeks last spring for repairs and then we've had those 2 bridge slow zones ever since.  It sure would be nice to know when RTA plans to fix or replace these bridges.  They really slow down the trip.