http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/article/GRTC07_20100606-221803/349528/

 

The Richmond, VA transit system, seeking a way to improve its bus safety program, looks to Cleveland for answers. Staff visited Cleveland during the recent APTA conference, and audio bus warning signals will begin soon.

 

On behalf of the residents of Cleveland, I would like to apologize to the residents of Richmond. My advice for you: get some ear plugs.

 

DocBroc, as a downtown resident do you hear the talking buses all the time when at your home? I ask because I am walking through public square twice a day and never hear these. I'm wondering if we are making mountains out of mole hills or if due to the bus routing PS doesn't get much of the announcements or if I am just getting lucky every single day.

 

You must be getting rediculously lucky, because I do hear them every day, and I even live in the "quiet" part of downtown.  Luckily we have really nice windows, so I don't hear them when I'm inside my house unless it's completely quiet (and even then they're not THAT loud), or when my windows are open.  But the second I step outside that's all I hear.

But the second I step outside that's all I hear.

 

Same thing for me, I work downtown on public square.

"Now kiddies.... Look both ways before crossing"

 

Told ya... I am working on my noisemaking shoes for me and my dog...my siren hat so the buses will watch out for me!..as it should be first and foremost. You will hear me as I walk...Ka-plunk..Ka-plunk...  Then you will hear the four legs of the pup doing the same...a siren and a voice that says... "Watch for pedestrians...watch for pedestrians"

If the noise is that distracting, you guys might want to consider some kind of legal action i.e. an injunction or seeking damages.  It may behoove you guys to talk to a lawyer or do some research as to any possible noise violations.

We were told by RTA, the better part of a year ago, that the 20-min base Red Line schedule was due to the Puritas-W.150 Rapid stop reconstruction... first, it seems kind of absurd to whack service so significantly for rebuilding of one Rapid station and, now, I see the 20-min base schedule is even during rush hour, even when the intermitten Brookpark runs average every 10 min runs for non-Airport trains... A 20 min base is totally unacceptable for a major/heavy rail Rapid line (the previous 15 min. base was shaky, but acceptable)... Call me skeptical, but methinks this may have been yet another slick RTA way to save a few pennies at the large expense of Rail riders... and believe me, 20 minute intervals make a huge difference, such as to the extend, even I shun the Red Line for runs to Ohio City from the East Side... sometimes I use the bus but more often, I simply drive...

 

From Service Planning: "RTA no longer has the resources available to offer the higher level of service. Yes, we initially changed the frequency to facilitate single-tracking during the Puritas construction, but now, faced with our economic situation, we are unable to provide the 15-minute service. We have reduced service on all rapid transit lines and many bus lines."

If the noise is that distracting, you guys might want to consider some kind of legal action i.e. an injunction or seeking damages.  It may behoove you guys to talk to a lawyer or do some research as to any possible noise violations.

 

I wish, but quite unlikely in this case. If you would like the name of a former activist and legal worker who is extremely well schooled in these subjects to find out why...I can provide you with the contact.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/rtd/news/local/article/GRTC07_20100606-221803/349528/

 

The Richmond, VA transit system, seeking a way to improve its bus safety program, looks to Cleveland for answers. Staff visited Cleveland during the recent APTA conference, and audio bus warning signals will begin soon.

 

On behalf of the residents of Cleveland, I would like to apologize to the residents of Richmond.  My advice for you:  get some ear plugs.

 

DocBroc, as a downtown resident do you hear the talking buses all the time when at your home?  I ask because I am walking through public square twice a day and never hear these.  I'm wondering if we are making mountains out of mole hills or if due to the bus routing PS doesn't get much of the announcements or if I am just getting lucky every single day.

 

You must be getting rediculously lucky, because I do hear them every day, and I even live in the "quiet" part of downtown.  Luckily we have really nice windows, so I don't hear them when I'm inside my house unless it's completely quiet (and even then they're not THAT loud), or when my windows are open.  But the second I step outside that's all I hear.

 

At lunch today I took a walk down 12th, across Superior, around the square, and back up euclid to 9th and only hear the announcement once.  And even then it was not loud, mainly due to the bus turning across the street from where I was. 

 

 

I guess I am just getting lucky then. Or I am going deaf, at 27, I sure hope not.

 

(sorry, I just couldn't resist)  :wink2:

 

<<All the Trolleys are equipped with fare machines.  Couldn't RTA establish a reasonable fare for weekend service in lieu of finding some hard-to-find corporate sponsor?  Maybe a $1.00 for every ride?  Cheaper than a cab!  I took a cab from the Warehouse District to East Fourth and it cost be $5.00 (including tip.) Get the hotels on board... make the E-line do more of a B+E-line where it goes down by the Rock 'n Roll Hall of Fame.... I think $1.00-$2.00 per ride is reasonable... run it every 15 minutes or so... or less if you have to.

 

GM Joe Calabrese responds:

 

"Thanks for the suggestion.  We would love to expand the hours of the Trolleys if they could be economically self sufficient, but they cannot be.  Fares simply cannot cover the operating costs, no matter what the charge.  That is why public transportation is public.  Current $2.25 fares on RTA cover only about 25% of our costs, which is typical on a nationwide basis.  Unfortunately, Governmental or Corporate sponsorship is the only way it can happen.  We are pursuing partnerships with the Medical Mart and the new Casino that may be the answer."

This is in response to an early post about overflowing trash containers near a bus shelter.

 

Trash collection is a municipal function. If the container is downtown, the City of Cleveland maintains it. The same goes for Parma, Brecksville, etc.

 

RTA does maintain crews to clean its 1,300 shelters. Some are cleaned once a week, some once every three weeks, depending on usage and where they are located.

 

This is in response to an early post about overflowing trash containers near a bus shelter.

 

Trash collection is a municipal function. If the container is downtown, the City of Cleveland maintains it. The same goes for Parma, Brecksville, etc.

 

RTA does maintain crews to clean its 1,300 shelters. Some are cleaned once a week, some once every three weeks, depending on usage and where they are located.

 

 

So if a trash receptacle is over flowing/continued problem is there a contact person at RTA that coordinates with the respective city to correct the situation or should be contact X city ourselves.

 

If it's a shelter/Rapid station issue, we should contact RTA with the shelter number, yes?

^ It is more efficient to contact the city iteself than to involve a third party.

 

All shelters have numbers. Yes, please contact us.

Jerry, thanks for your replies to all the questions we've posted lately.

 

cleveland1979, that's very creative! I like it!

(sorry, I just couldn't resist)  :wink2:

 

 

Classic!!!  :lol:  Add to this.. Last night I was walking by a bus stop along Euclid....and aside from the talking/beeping buses we've been discussing...the station sounded like some kind of chaotic fish trade market with all the excessive screaming and hollering and profanity.....  :argue: Great atmosphere to attract new riders...while absolutely NO security was present.

^ It is more efficient to contact the city iteself than to involve a third party.

 

All shelters have numbers. Yes, please contact us.

 

If RTA people see this.....then why aren't THEY reporting it?  Or, maybe they do? From the looks of the stops and some stations, I would have to conclude not much.

 

I have reported things like this all the time, to the city too.. we're all in this together and it would help if sometimes folks at RTA go the extra step. Why know this problem exists and wait for the city to get out there or for someone to report it to the city? Oh..wait.. I know why.... It's not in the "job description."

 

Again, a philosophical issue that all the funding in the world will not make right. This garbage was strewn all over your stop as well. How bad does it have to get before someone takes the liberty to go the extra small step?

^ "RTA people" means who? Bus operators? Those people whose job it is to collect fares, calm down angry passengers, and maintain the safety of thousands of people a day, while driving an oversized vehicle on urban roads. No, with all respect, they have plenty of things they HAVE to do.

 

I report things amiss all the time to a number of agencies. Just ask my long-suffering wife. I report them because I believe it is my duty. Some people would rather ignore them. So be it. I am not out to change the world, just change a few things that are within my field of view.

 

You want someone to go that extra small step? Fine. Let it be you, and stop judging others.

EC, he wasn't saying you don't go the extra step.  He was saying that you should lead by example and not by trying to boss others around.  Hopefully people will follow your lead, but if you turn them off, they're less likely to.

Fares simply cannot cover the operating costs, no matter what the charge.  That is why public transportation is public.  Current $2.25 fares on RTA cover only about 25% of our costs, which is typical on a nationwide basis.  Unfortunately, Governmental or Corporate sponsorship is the only way it can happen.

 

That problem can be fixed or at least minimized, given enough courage.  Get rid of the unions and hire qualified non-union drivers for a third of the cost.  Use available capital funding to convert the fleet to use flexible and efficient fuels (which will probably mean CNG for the foreseeable future).  Use a mix of different-sized buses to minimize fuel costs.  Enforce the no-engine-running-during-long-layover rule (if there even must be long layovers, which there shouldn't unless absolutely necessary for adequate on-time performance).  Charge more $$ for commuter services to relatively wealthy suburbs (yes, that would hit me, too bad for me).  Demand that if the state subsidizes auto transportation it must equally subsidize transit.  Demand that all levels of government reduce or eliminate regulations that hamper development of domestically-available energy resources such as coal.  Charge what the market will bear.  Provide a mix of basic, standard, and premium services targeting different markets, and charge accordingly.  Subcontract out some lines to private contractors.  Restore true commuter services (bus first, then rail when demand justifies it) to places like Lorain, Elyria, Medina, Akron, Kent, and Mentor, perhaps in coordination with the county transit agencies in those areas.  Start thinking in terms of minimizing losses and eventually making profits.  That is what would happen absent government intervention, and it is what will happen once the top levels of government as we know it either reinvent themselves and/or collapse under their own weight.  So why not start planning for a future NOW, instead of just letting it happen???

I'm not exactly sure what you're saying, EC, but I think I agree.  You might want to edit the first half of that rant a little and make it a little more clear, but I see your point...mostly.  I've had plenty of icky (putting it nicely) experiences on RTA buses and bus stops (in particular at Tower City), and after 4 or 5 "unhelpful" experiences with bus drivers and the people working at TC, I just stay out of it.  Honestly, some of them are on par with the riffraff I've had the pleasure of encountering. 

I ran across an article from Portland's newspaper today...  The GM of Tri-Met, the city's public transportation system, is being highly critical of his own driver after a tragic left turn accident...

 

Anyways, Cleveland is mentioned about how Portland is "considering" implementing audible announcements on turns, but states that the "research into the success of such systems is minimal."

 

One of the most interesting things Portland's Tri-Met is considering, in my opinion, is "one announced and one unannounced evaluation ride of every driver annually."  Does RTA do this, or would they consider doing this as part of quality control?

 

The full article, if anyone is interested... http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/06/trimets_hansen_criticizes_driv.html

EC, he wasn't saying you don't go the extra step.  He was saying that you should lead by example and not by trying to boss others around.  Hopefully people will follow your lead, but if you turn them off, they're less likely to.

 

This was stated: "You want someone to go that extra small step? Fine. Let it be you, and stop judging others." Well, my "judgement" is based upon what I see every day....so, if yeee want to not be judged, then yeee could start showing better examples on attention to the issue. If I saw a good job on such being done, I would be equally offering all the praise in the world...and I would bet no one would have a problem with that.

 

 

 

The reply was, to me....Implying that I have not went the extra step.

 

AND.....If cleaning it up myself is not leading by example, I don't know what is. I am not at all saying I am the lone person who does that either...as I indicated, many do and it is a great thing, however, if we all went the extra step and did a little...that goes a long way...and in this case, RTA has not met up to my expectations in doing their part.

 

Example...If they're really concerned about this issue, they'd remove the vending machines at any station (such as 65th Rapid station) because all they do is invite more litter and until people learn to stop being slobs someday, maybe the privilege needs to be suspended. The chump change any vending company throws back in return is not worth it.

Folks, while I know we get upset with each other, let's simmer down and be civil.

 

One of the most interesting things Portland's Tri-Met is considering, in my opinion, is "one announced and one unannounced evaluation ride of every driver annually." Does RTA do this, or would they consider doing this as part of quality control?

 

Once every two years, every bus operator comes in a for complete physical and two days of re-training and re-certification. During the year, on a random basis, trainers ride with and evaluate operators. Sometimes, the operator knows the trainers are on board; many times, they do not.

Jerry,

 

Is there any planned study of what effect the "Turn Announcements" have?  Either currently or planned for the future. 

 

Thanks,

EC, you're missing the point.  It's not whether you lead by example (I think you clearly do and that's great), but that you are overly harsh and abrasive in addition, which is detrimental to your cause.  I appreciate what you do, but I think you need to tone down the rhetoric and attitude or you're going to get people tuning out your good ideas.

^ I agree completely, and I think many have been trying to get that point across.  We need passionate people, but there is a fine line between passionate and fanatical.

Is there any planned study of what effect the "Turn Announcements" have? Either currently or planned for the future.

 

There has been no formal study that I am aware of -- it has not been that long. I mentioned your noise concerns to someone at RTA recently, and their response, "if the announcements save just one life, it is worth it." Although you may have valid reasons for disliking the audio turn signals, your complaints pale next to the value of a human life.

FYI, we held a management meeting this morning at RTA, and among other things, we honored "Operators of the Month" for January, February and March. Ironically, all three operators were honored for the same thing -- getting involved above and beyond their normal responsibilities. Each operator saw a pre-schooler or toddler walking alone down a neighborhood street, and each assumed responsibility to hold the child on the bus until the parent, or police, showed up. The stories were heartwarming.

There has been no formal study that I am aware of -- it has not been that long. I mentioned your noise concerns to someone at RTA recently, and their response, "if the announcements save just one life, it is worth it." Although you may have valid reasons for disliking the audio turn signals, your complaints pale next to the value of a human life.

 

I know that there have been far, far too many electrons spilled in this thread over the turn announcements issue, but I don't think that the argument being made is "we value tranquility over human safety" but rather "is there a more effective, less intrusive method for protecting pedestrians?", which is why conducting a study or reviewing current research could be effective and helpful for RTA and its customers.

 

I think that another ongoing issue with the turn announcements was that there was a perception here that it was in direct response to the most recent accidents where drivers were at fault for things such as cellphone use (and certainly RTA also reacted appropriately by increasing driver education on avoiding distractions).

 

While I can certainly sympathize with taking a "suspenders and a belt" approach to safety, it would be helpful to know whether the suspenders are actually effective. Should the belt of driver education fail, will the suspenders of pedestrian awareness through turn announcements guard against an unfortunate viewing of the soiled tightie-whities of accidental collisions?

^Thanks, Jerry for the update.  Great to hear drivers are being recognized for going above and beyond though.

 

I still don't understand RTA's response to the complaints about the audible turn warnings though.  "If it saves one life it's worth it" is kind of a nonsensical standard,IMHO.  If RTA really believes that, it should paint all it's buses canary yellow (which people would be able to see a lot better than the current camouflage winter sky gray) and cover them with blinking SunPu Opto LEDs.  I'm also sure we'd save lives if the buses had speed governors which limited their speed to 25 mph.  Anyway, you get the idea- there are ALWAYS incremental safety improvements that can be made that would save lives and which are weighed [at least implicitly] against the costs.  It may just be that RTA considers the noise a relatively small cost, but others may very legitimately disagree with that.

Is there any planned study of what effect the "Turn Announcements" have? Either currently or planned for the future.

 

There has been no formal study that I am aware of -- it has not been that long. I mentioned your noise concerns to someone at RTA recently, and their response, "if the announcements save just one life, it is worth it." Although you may have valid reasons for disliking the audio turn signals, your complaints pale next to the value of a human life.

 

What a strange reply.

What a stupid reply.

 

Jerry, I hope you realize that if this kind of 2nd grade mentality is prevalent in your organization, then you, and we, have a serious problem with the RTA.

Folks, either tone it down with the insulting candor or find yourselves with some time off.

 

I *will* say this - clearly the audible signals have rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, including many who want to be advocates for public transit. For RTA to blow it off with "well, other transit agencies think we're doing a good thing" ...  what about the rest of us who 1. fund RTA via ridership, paying sales tax and actively petition elected officials to provide more funding for public transit and 2. are directly affected - sometimes 24/7 depending on our address - by the over-the-top catering-to-the-lowest-denominator of "WARNING WILL ROBINSON!!! HERE COMES THE BUS!!!" alerts? I mean StrapHanger has a point - has anyone at RTA or the board of directors tried to sell their home that's located near a corner along a main route?

I've found the city really responsive to requests to empty overflowing trash cans at bus stops. Because this seems to be a frequent problem at the stop I usually use, I made stickers with the number to call and ask for trash pickup and put them on the cans by the bus stop. It seems to be working, the city apparently increased the frequency of pickups and the trash can rarely is overflowing.

^You rock, dogs&cats.  I love the guerrilla transit citizenship.

Dogs&Cats....what is that # please.

I COMPLETELY AGREE with MayDay.  I will be writing to the other agencies considering implementing this noise pollution to tell them how much the public hates it here and how it is tanking public support for RTA, then we'll see how interested in it they really are.

 

I would like the aforementioned phone # as I will put it in my phone. Also, where would we call for actual RTA stop problems, such as the broken glass I saw at one yesterday?  This really makes a neighborhood look bad, when there's broken glass all over the ground and a shattered, but still in place pane in the bus stop.

^Good question... none of the numbers on RTA's contacts page (http://www.riderta.com/customerservice/#contacts) seems a great fit.  Maybe the:

 

General Manager's Office

For complaints, commendations, and suggestions, please use our Online Feedback Form or call the complaint line at 216-566-5227.

For all other concerns, e-mail the General Manager directly  [the email on the web page is hot linked]

 

 

Thanks, Straphanger, I was just about to recommend our online feedback form, at http://www.riderta.com/feedback. This is the best means of getting a message in to RTA, as it all feeds into a central response management system -- even phone calls ultimately get input to that system, so doing it directly "avoids the middleman", if you will.

 

While the design of the form is generally applicable to trip-specific issues, the "other details" field can be used to report items like broken shelter glass. Just be as specific as possible, including the shelter number (usually displayed in large digits on the top of the shelter) if possible for quickest response.

 

As has already been mentioned, whatever method you use for communication, please keep it civil, and remember there's a person on the other end of any conversation.

That's a great idea, dogsandcats!

For RTA to blow it off with "well, other transit agencies think we're doing a good thing" ...

 

That's certainly not an accurate statement. We pointed out that left-hand turns are a national issue (and they are). We pointed out that we have developed a new solution (and we have). We pointed out that other transit systems, dealing with similar problems, are implementing the same solutions we have.

 

Those are undeniable facts. Posters are this list have valid complaints about the noise, and we have heard you. We are committed to maintaining a high level of safety in our bus operations, and are open to other viable solutions. Technology is certainly changing our lives everyday. If and when something is found that is as effective as the present system, RTA will certainly consider it. Until then, I do not believe (opinion here) that a change will be made.

Lovely.  I did email the Richmond transit people to let them know what the noise pollution has done for the reputation of RTA here locally among the public, and to suggest they consider other options. 

 

I honestly do not believe anyone at RTA really thinks these announcements are going to "save lives," I believe the only thing they were implemented to save were lfines in liability lawsuits.  "But we had an announcement!" they can argue.  Isn't this kind of like the people who blow their horn while running a yellow-to-red light?  Correct the behavior, don't tack noise on to the problem, that doesn't fix it.

^ ^ I have an idea!!!!  How about training drivers to be more cautious and not talk on cell phones! That might be effective.

And how about firing them (and keeping them fired) after infractions?  That's an idea.

^ Good point. Its really disturbing.

 

 

http://www.riderta.com/nu_newsroom_releases.asp?listingid=1345

 

Please note the date on the press release mentioned above -- Sept. 18, 2009. Furthermore, while our field supervisors do everything in their power to ensure that our operators are performing their jobs as safely as possible, the truth is that in sheer numbers, operators outweigh supervisors. This is where each and every RTA passenger comes into play.

 

RTA has espoused a long-standing mantra of "if you see something, say something". While this was started in response to potential terror threats, it applies to ANY circumstance in which something you see "just isn't right". You're on a bus where the driver is talking on his cell phone while operating the vehicle? Let us know the bus number, the operator ID (if available), the time & place -- more detail is better, but any amount will do. It will be investigated and dealt with accordingly.

http://www.riderta.com/nu_newsroom_releases.asp?listingid=1345

 

Please note the date on the press release mentioned above -- Sept. 18, 2009. Furthermore, while our field supervisors do everything in their power to ensure that our operators are performing their jobs as safely as possible, the truth is that in sheer numbers, operators outweigh supervisors. This is where each and every RTA passenger comes into play.

 

RTA has espoused a long-standing mantra of "if you see something, say something". While this was started in response to potential terror threats, it applies to ANY circumstance in which something you see "just isn't right". You're on a bus where the driver is talking on his cell phone while operating the vehicle? Let us know the bus number, the operator ID (if available), the time & place -- more detail is better, but any amount will do. It will be investigated and dealt with accordingly.

 

I agree with JetDog.  All these people have smart devices, nothing proves your point than a short video.

As for training: I have long wished RTA would train its Blue/Green train drivers better, esp with regards to stopping... and even starting... I have never ridden a rail line where drivers, consistently, jam on the brakes so hard as to make their trains shudder.  They race up to platforms way too fast, then jam on the brakes.  Then there are times where, I'm assuming the automatic signals are stopping them, that drivers stop and start very harshly jerking passengers every couple feet.  It's ridiculous.  I've often seen people, esp elderly folks, thrown to the floor.  It's inexcusable and has been going on for years.  Does RTA have any oversight/retraining of these drivers?

 

(I don't ride the Red Line enough to know if its a problem there).

As for training: I have long wished RTA would train its Blue/Green train drivers better, esp with regards to stopping... and even starting... I have never ridden a rail line where drivers, consistently, jam on the brakes so hard as to make their trains shudder.  They race up to platforms way too fast, then jam on the brakes.  Then there are times where, I'm assuming the automatic signals are stopping them, that the stop and start very harshly jerking passengers every couple feet.  It's ridiculous.  I've often seen people, esp elderly folks, thrown to the floor. It's inexcusable and has been going on for years.  Does RTA have any oversight/retraining of these drivers?

 

(I don't ride the Red Line enough to know if its a problem there).

 

I've never witnessed that.  That start-and-stoping right before TCC and about 79 street is annoying.

 

Remember the old trains, I think it was worse back then.  ;)

RTA's next technological innovation?

(it might be time for a laugh, and I have nothing better to do on a Friday afternoon)