If you do it should get in trouble. I dont care who you are, white, black, asian, old, young, middle-aged. If you dont follow the rules you need to be punished. If young black males happen to be the ones violating the rules the most then they should get in trouble. The worst problem is this could be a bigger issue. These kids will now believe that they can do whatever they want and not have to deal with the consequences. Its not like your targeting young black males. The police hops on the bus and asks EVERYBODY to see their passes. If you cant provide it your caught. Its not like the police is hopping on the bus and only asking young black males. And why try to protect those who dont follow the rules. It will only become a bigger issue if not stopped

Humph, I guess crime DOES pay then, if you're black, just so we don't accuse anyone of being a racist or get any black youths into trouble.  Message=if you're black, go ahead and break the law while the rest of the riders pay, because there won't be any retribution?  Nice.

All this does is going to give RTA more fare violators because now they know, "hey i wont get in trouble." If people saw their friends or other people on the bus get in trouble they'd be less likely to not pay. If one of their friends got caught and had to do community service I guarantee that all their friends would be making fun of them and they, and their friends would think twice about not paying again

I actually think it would have been OK social policy to have RTA free for minors, but I cannot think of a more politically poisonous way to have gotten there.  Proof of purchase has really not turned out the way I had hoped back when it was first announced.

Hey Jerry, tell Mr. Dixon that us taxpayers who have been supporting the system for so long also want to ride for free.

They NEVER check anyways

Humph, I guess crime DOES pay then, if you're black, just so we don't accuse anyone of being a racist or get any black youths into trouble.  Message=if you're black, go ahead and break the law while the rest of the riders pay, because there won't be any retribution?  Nice.

 

WTF?!  That was really generalizing and reaching.  There are many of us "BLACKS" who do not agree with this. 

 

Don't lump all blacks into one category.

If you do it should get in trouble. I dont care who you are, white, black, asian, old, young, middle-aged. If you dont follow the rules you need to be punished. If young black males happen to be the ones violating the rules the most then they should get in trouble. The worst problem is this could be a bigger issue. These kids will now believe that they can do whatever they want and not have to deal with the consequences. Its not like your targeting young black males. The police hops on the bus and asks EVERYBODY to see their passes. If you cant provide it your caught. Its not like the police is hopping on the bus and only asking young black males. And why try to protect those who dont follow the rules. It will only become a bigger issue if not stopped

 

I agree. I wonder how Dixon made the determination that all the fare evaders were people of color?  I'm sure white, asian, indian and latinos - knowing they didn't have to pay - didn't pay either.

 

I pay for my pass and I think if you do the crime, you should be prosecuted.  Period!  You know riding the bus/healtline or train is not free.

This is ridiculous, and dixon made what should have been a simple fare evasion issue into a black/white issue.  Thanks Mr. Dixon.

Race is NOT a factor in everything and should NOT be brought up for every kind of issue that has to deal with crime and punishment

Why aren't there turnstiles, where it is possible to have them? There has to be a way to have a physical barrier that you have to pass through to get on the train. I know at Tower City they have them. Is it possible to have them at other stations? or does every station have this type of thing? (I haven't checked every station out on the Rapid system!)

 

Also, what about RTA police on all trains checking each passenger for a ticket? Is this the 'proof of purchase' policy mentioned above?

 

Charlotte has one train in their transit system and they have no turnstiles. However, after each stop there is a transit policeman or representative that checks each passenger for a ticket. They can either issue a warning or a $50 fine if you don't have a ticket on you. There doesn't seem to be the worry or outcry about targeting certain members of the population with this policy.

 

Letting people on buses without paying seems as if it would be up to the bus driver. A check for that would be a camera monitoring the driver. May seem big-brotherish but if the system loses as much money as they do due to non-fare payers, I think video surveillance is fair game.

They NEVER check anyways

 

I've only seen (a plain clothes officer) check once.  That was on the RL at (I think - I was nodding off) Brookpark.  It was early in the AM and most riders were folks who either work at the airport or need to be there for the first bank of flights out.

Why aren't there turnstiles, where it is possible to have them? There has to be a way to have a physical barrier that you have to pass through to get on the train. I know at Tower City they have them. Is it possible to have them at other stations? or does every station have this type of thing? (I haven't checked every station out on the Rapid system!)

 

Also, what about RTA police on all trains checking each passenger for a ticket? Is this the 'proof of purchase' policy mentioned above?

 

Charlotte has one train in their transit system and they have no turnstiles. However, after each stop there is a transit policeman or representative that checks each passenger for a ticket. They can either issue a warning or a $50 fine if you don't have a ticket on you. There doesn't seem to be the worry or outcry about targeting certain members of the population with this policy.

 

Letting people on buses without paying seems as if it would be up to the bus driver. A check for that would be a camera monitoring the driver. May seem big-brotherish but if the system loses as much money as they do due to non-fare payers, I think video surveillance is fair game.

 

I believe the problem is more with the Healthline which you buy a ticket before getting on and only get checked if a RTA police comes on the bus and checks who has passes(which they hardly do). Its not the bus drivers responsibility in this case

This is ridiculous, and dixon made what should have been a simple fare evasion issue into a black/white issue.  Thanks Mr. Dixon.

Race is NOT a factor in everything and should NOT be brought up for every kind of issue that has to deal with crime and punishment

 

I 100% agree!

They check fairly regularly on the healthline and they ALWAYS catch a few people. I have been on the HL and when the officers get on, half of the bus gets off before the doors close at E. 60th in the middle of nowhere.  I think Juveniles riding free would not be a bad idea.  The fares are pretty high for a teenager to pay.

Oh and maybe they can get new payment stations at the HL stops that a normal person can actually figure out.  I have seen people that are either out of town or on business that look like they have a brain in their head argue with RTA cops because they couldn't figure out the stupid pay stations.

Not that I know anything about the Cleveland transit system, but NYC recently started a new express bus system with very limited stops on 1st and 2nd Avenues in Manhattan called SelectBus. I believe it’s somewhat similar to the Health Line (?)—in which the passenger buys a receipt w/a MetroCard at the bus stop and boards without any interaction with the driver. Last week was the first time I was asked to produce my receipt. It was like going through customs (NY’ers are not used to this! LOL), but everybody on board (and it was packed) was questioned—and it was mid-afternoon when a lot of high school students were on. Remarkably nobody got kicked off. We’ll see how long that lasts. Also, the fine here for failure to show a receipt, I believe, is $100!

And for those who might not know.... HRV stands for "Heavy Rail Vehicle", right?  So, in other words, you are overhauling the redline trains?

Yes, the Red Line, not the redline

This is ridiculous, and dixon made what should have been a simple fare evasion issue into a black/white issue.  Thanks Mr. Dixon.

 

To put things in perspective, this is the same person who let the insurance lapse on his landmark business "to save money" - and he's the chairman of the board at RTA. http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2009/12/lancers_owner_vows_to_reopen_l.html

Question for Mr. Masek:

 

I saw a car parked on Clifton today that had a sign in the window "RTA Traffic Survey."  There was a lady sitting in the car obviously observing traffic.

 

What do these folks do and what does it mean to see her parked on Clifton?

This is just unbelievable. 

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/11/post_392.html

 

RTA board tables proposed crackdown on juvenile fare violators

 

"CLEVELAND, Ohio -- RTA's board voted this morning to table, and effectively kill, a proposal to crack down on juveniles who ride rapid-transit lines without paying.

 

RTA Board Chairman George Dixon said he worried that the policy would land disproportionately on young, black males."

 

It seems like race is always on the tip of everyone's tongues in this city, even when it has not a damn thing to do with the issue.  This Dixon guy is an idiot.

 

 

"Disproportionately on "young black males?"..... Here we go again.... This is what is part of the majority of riders are a lot of the time, so the only thing disproportionate is the fact that they are the majority making it a non-diverse ridership. So, if they are the majority at any given time then naturally, they will be the focus.

 

And because the fact that "race" is at the tip of the tongues, is a testament to why we cannot advance.... the race card dealers will not allow it. They continually turn the tables around and point the issue away from the law breaker towards the law/rule enforcer...sending the message that the inappropriate behavior that drew attention from the law in the first place...is perfectly fine, because its not that they're breaking laws and/or rules...its that the enforcing body is a "racist."

 

That is very prejudiced on the part of the person dealing the race card, but usually they're too full of themselves and in need of validation and attention to shut the hell up and listen as to WHY they are wrong! And all is a big pat of the reason the inappropriate actions by the accused are allowed to continue. Rather than deal with the drama of an uprising, they're (the law/rule breaker) just given what they want to appease them.

 

The rest give up...move, or walk away when tired of this crapola....and then are accused of being "racist" for turning the other cheek. Please, opinions do not form without a reason, and its high time black riders or anyone else who deals a race card when law enforcement is simply and legitimately doing its job, ceases this nonsense because it is only contributing to creating resentment and more negative images of blacks. That is unfair to the majority of that race to have a few idiots stirring up crap when there is no need.

 

All this does nothing positive for Cleveland and really holds the city back because we have to tolerate or put up with what should NOT be tolerated in the first place.

 

In other words, when shutting up (instead of immediately dealing a race card) long enough to listen to what this looks and sounds  like through the eyes/ears of many others...They just might have an epiphany that the problems and issues they gripe about are not so much with or because of everyone else... It starts with them!

 

Having said this, please, don't be prejudiced and deal the race card on me stating how I see this issue. If I have to sugarcoat and tip toe around words, then I will be accused of making "references" or speaking in :"code" I am flat out telling it how I feel...and if I cannot be honest with expressing a thought or feeling, then there is no point in expressing it if I have to make it light and fluffy for some to digest. Race cards.... It is one thing I simply do not tolerate when there is simply no room for it. And in the above case, there is NOT.

 

Jesus, Mary and Joseph!!!....Some need to learn about personal responsibility. Corporations need to learn about it...and so should others. Black juvenile riders who are doing something inappropriate are no exception to the rule.

 

 

Well, at least now we'll be spared the would-be inevitable George Forbes & Friends press conference on the racist policies of the RTA.

The Chairman and Board's rationale used to table the issue is misguided and misplaced. 

 

That said, I don't get how they can legalize fare-jumping?  Oh wait..... that's right..... they didn't.  Phew.... I thought I was going to have to report that cop who I saw arresting a young black male who did a pass-back with his friend's monthly pass at Tower City.  That would have felt akward.

how is a "pass-back" even possible?  I thought once you swipe the pass, a specific period of time (5-10minutes) needed to pass before it could be used again?

It's been said here before -- riding on RTA should be free within the core of the city anyway.

how is a "pass-back" even possible? I thought once you swipe the pass, a specific period of time (5-10minutes) needed to pass before it could be used again?

 

Not sure.... but it happened right in front of me.  Two black youths (courtesy identification for those of you whom it matters to) were arrested (or at least I assumed).  I didn't see what happened.... I just saw the cop grab the one kid by the arm and say "you're coming with me" and then point to his friend to follow.  When the kid asked "why?".... the cop said "don't act like you don't know what a pass-back is"

how is a "pass-back" even possible? I thought once you swipe the pass, a specific period of time (5-10minutes) needed to pass before it could be used again?

 

Not sure.... but it happened right in front of me. Two black youths (courtesy identification for those of you whom it matters to) were arrested (or at least I assumed). I didn't see what happened.... I just saw the cop grab the one kid by the arm and say "you're coming with me" and then point to his friend to follow. When the kid asked "why?".... the cop said "don't act like you don't know what a pass-back is"

 

I thought the whole point of this was that legally there was nothing they could do to fare jumpers who were under 18?

how is a "pass-back" even possible? I thought once you swipe the pass, a specific period of time (5-10minutes) needed to pass before it could be used again?

 

Not sure.... but it happened right in front of me. Two black youths (courtesy identification for those of you whom it matters to) were arrested (or at least I assumed). I didn't see what happened.... I just saw the cop grab the one kid by the arm and say "you're coming with me" and then point to his friend to follow. When the kid asked "why?".... the cop said "don't act like you don't know what a pass-back is"

 

I thought the whole point of this was that legally there was nothing they could do to fare jumpers who were under 18?

 

Jerry would have to weigh in..... but as I understand it, the vote was simply to give RTA transit police the authority to issue a citation to juvenilles.  They already have the authority to cite adults..... but only the white ones ;) (sarcasm intended for those of you who didn't get the wink).  The current policy, however, is to just give juvenilles a warning.  However, the juvenilles COULD be arrested as it certainly is a crime.... it is just a matter of resources to process and hold the juvenilles.  The idea of citations was raised to deal with those issues.  But I do see a problem with that type of system... even putting the race issue to the side.  How are the cops supposed to confirm identify of these juvenilles?  What would stop the juvenille from giving false information?

 

I believe the cop I saw at Tower City dealing with that issue was a Cleveland cop, not RTA.

There will be a letter to the editor in Friday's PD, from George Dixon. It will answer this and other questions fairly plainly. I will post the link as soon as possible on Friday morning.

Thank you, Jerry.

Thank you, Jerry.

 

Thanks!

 

Granted people will complain about it once they read it.  You know you can never please everyone! 

Here is the link to George Dixon's letter.

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/letters/2010/11/rta_still_working_toward_a_sol.html#modk_smoref_twitt

Yeah that's about what I expected him to say, and would hope what he would have said in the meeting.  Not something that got paraphrased by the PD that would make us believe that Mr. Dixon feels the New Haven Firefighter's Test is a model to live up to.

I've been following this topic in the PD articles, but referred back to this thread assuming it would be discussed and it was! 

 

How big of a problem is this really?  5-10% of riders jumping on for free?  Only certain routes is it a problem?  What sort of enforcement measures are even in place to keep this from occurring?  In Chicago there was no way to get on the train really without paying, there was a security person at each gate.  Getting on a bus without paying & the driver would throw you off.  Not sure why things should work differently in Cleveland.

 

Not sure about Foraker's comments that it should be free within the city either.  I see some benefits to that, reduced auto traffic, more people riding provides greater level of presence, but what does it do to the budget? 

In Chicago there was no way to get on the train really without paying, there was a security person at each gate. Getting on a bus without paying & the driver would throw you off. Not sure why things should work differently in Cleveland.

 

Just a recap...but there are some very good reasons why fare collection on the Red Line and Health Line is different from Chicago's system:  for the HealthLine, the boarding/alighting per minute is probably much faster than any standard bus line in Chicago because the HealthLine vehicles can use multiple doors for boarding and and fares aren't paid on board.  Reverting to a traditional fare system on the HealthLine would slow it down significantly, and that's a Chicago feature we probably don't want to emulate.  Not  picking on Chicago- it's the same for any high ridership bus system.  I used to ride a crosstown bus line in NYC with a boarding line that often stretched to 30 people, who all had to pay one at a time in front of the driver.  Talk about slow.

 

For the Red Line, the ridership per hour is so low at several stations that it's difficult to justify paying gate attendants and paying for new security gates system-wide.  Plus, the fare enforcement cops mean, in theory, better security on Red Line (and Health Line) vehicles and stations.

 

I don't see any way around proof of purchase for the Health Line- the stations aren't large enough for controlled entry and the capital outlay to make them controlled entry would be considerable.  But I now wonder if the Red Line should have been converted to proof of purchase.  Perhaps automated fare gates at the stations would have been a better choice, despite the capital expense.

 

Question for regular Red Line riders: how much faster does it run now that payment isn't made on board?

I rode the red line this weekend and it was incredibly fast. People who don't ride it really don't realize what they are missing. I rode from downtown to W. 117th station and it was 12 minutes just like it said on the schedule. Amazing.  I did notice that not that many people got on at the Cudell stop or at the W. 65th stop but there were a few riders at each stop which was good.

I saw a car parked on Clifton today that had a sign in the window "RTA Traffic Survey." There was a lady sitting in the car obviously observing traffic. What do these folks do and what does it mean to see her parked on Clifton?

 

I am checking on that now...sorry for the delay.

I rode the red line this weekend and it was incredibly fast. People who don't ride it really don't realize what they are missing. I rode from downtown to W. 117th station and it was 12 minutes just like it said on the schedule. Amazing. I did notice that not that many people got on at the Cudell stop or at the W. 65th stop but there were a few riders at each stop which was good.

 

Whenever I'm in Cleveland with business downtown, I always try to catch the Red Line at West 117th Street.  Like you said.... great ride, fast and right into the heart of downtown.... not to mention the savings on parking.

You know, the stop at West 150th-Puritas requires a much shorter drive off I-71 than West 117th? I'm surprised you don't get on there instead. It doesn't cost anymore than West 117th.

I saw a car parked on Clifton today that had a sign in the window "RTA Traffic Survey." There was a lady sitting in the car obviously observing traffic. What do these folks do and what does it mean to see her parked on Clifton?

 

This woman is an RTA Service Monitor. Apparently, a staff member requested an update on some of the Clifton Blvd. service, and she will produce one. Are the buses on time? How full are they? Is more service needed at certain times, or is less service needed at certain times? The goal of any transit system is put the most service on the street at the time(s) it is most needed. The data this woman collects will help us meet that goal.

 

I hope this answer helps. Have a nice day.

I saw a car parked on Clifton today that had a sign in the window "RTA Traffic Survey." There was a lady sitting in the car obviously observing traffic. What do these folks do and what does it mean to see her parked on Clifton?

 

This woman is an RTA Service Monitor. Apparently, a staff member requested an update on some of the Clifton Blvd. service, and she will produce one. Are the buses on time? How full are they? Is more service needed at certain times, or is less service needed at certain times? The goal of any transit system is put the most service on the street at the time(s) it is most needed. The data this woman collects will help us meet that goal.

 

I hope this answer helps. Have a nice day.

 

Thanks! even though I didn't ask the question. We need that lady to go and watch the Healthline next!

I saw a car parked on Clifton today that had a sign in the window "RTA Traffic Survey."  There was a lady sitting in the car obviously observing traffic. What do these folks do and what does it mean to see her parked on Clifton?

 

This woman is an RTA Service Monitor. Apparently, a staff member requested an update on some of the Clifton Blvd. service, and she will produce one. Are the buses on time? How full are they? Is more service needed at certain times, or is less service needed at certain times? The goal of any transit system is put the most service on the street at the time(s) it is most needed. The data this woman collects will help us meet that goal.

 

I hope this answer helps. Have a nice day.

 

Thank you!  I wonder what "staff member" requested the update?

I rode the red line this weekend and it was incredibly fast. People who don't ride it really don't realize what they are missing. I rode from downtown to W. 117th station and it was 12 minutes just like it said on the schedule. Amazing.  I did notice that not that many people got on at the Cudell stop or at the W. 65th stop but there were a few riders at each stop which was good.

 

Whenever I'm in Cleveland with business downtown, I always try to catch the Red Line at West 117th Street.  Like you said.... great ride, fast and right into the heart of downtown.... not to mention the savings on parking.

 

Business people don't ride trains....

 

 

Sorry, couldnt help myself    :yap:

Here's the latest on the crackdown on juvenile fare offenders:

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/11/post_400.html

<<Business people don't ride trains....>>

 

Surely you jest, but thanks for repeated an old and tired myth about public transit. I know many in the business world who ride the train, because I see them every day when I board the Red Line at Brookpark.

He does jest, hence the emoticon. :)

I sent an email to RTA about having a direct bus route from downtown to Steelyard Commons back in October when we were talking about it on here.

 

They finally responded and this is all they had to say.(I actually forgot I sent them an email)

 

"Thank you for your comments.  There are no plans for any additional service from downtown to Steelyard Commons."

"Thank you for your comments. There are no plans for any additional service from downtown to Steelyard Commons."

 

One e-mail can be ignored. One thousand cannot.

 

Nor can a city councilperson or two.

 

Nor can the owner of Steelyard Commons.

 

Give them a reason why they should pay attention to this request.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/11/rta_votes_to_support_a_50_fine.html

 

"Despite pleas from the American Civil Liberties Union, the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority board voted 7-1 to support a new fare policy that includes a first warning to juvenile fare-jumpers and a $50 fine for a subsequent offense.

 

The board voted after amending the policy presented by General Manager Joe Calabrese and his staff. The fare crackdown won't take effect until Feb. 1, leaving time for RTA staff to educate Cleveland-area schools and community groups about the new policy."

 

So the new RTA policy basically says you can jump on the bus for free until you get caught, at which point nothing will happen.  You can continute to ride for free till you get caught again at which point you'll get a $50 fine, but nothing will probably happen if you don't pay that either.  As long as the city keeps protecting the rights of the underpriveleged, pretty soon that'll be all that's left.  Hello Detroit?

 

 

How did "the city" get thrown into an RTA administrative decision??

 

I'm not in favor of this, I believe if you commit a crime, you should be prosecuted, but come on with the over dramatics.