The old ugly brown seats are more comfy than the seats on the blue and green lines, but still an improvement. The windows were what needed replaced most IMO.

 

I agree.  The vinyl seats on the Red Line are definitely cushier than those harder Blue/Green type cloth seats.  The new look is pretty sterile and standard -- at a glance, it’s hard to distinguish the Red Line interior from the Blue-Green trains.  I was kinda hoping the refurbished Red Line interiors would have a bit more pizazz and that, well maybe for once, RTA would color-code with a reddish themed interior – but traveling the system, its obvious that, aside from the train signage, and the lone red-colored station (W.25-Ohio City), train-line color coding ain’t RTA’s thing… oh well.    But at least they’re fresh looking and clean – let’s hope  they stay that way.  And as Keith implies, replacing those foggy windows with clear ones are more valuable than the renovation itself imho, although I realize RTA has begun replacing them already.

 

Also, the new seats look smaller to me for the aisle looks wider.  This would be great for ingress/egress but much a tighter sit-down for riders.  Hopefully, it’s just my optical illusion.

Not a fan of cloth seats on public transit.  Considering the aroma on the average bus/train, I never am quite sure if the person sitting on the seat before me wet himself while sitting there.  At least with vinyl, I can tell for sure it isn't still wet.  I wish I was just being sarcastic.

After reading farther upthread about an armed robbery at the West 117th Red Line station, it is with sadness that I share this news of a murder during an armed robbery tonight at the West Park Red Line station...

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/news/local-news/cleveland-metro/west-park-rta-rapid-station-closed-due-to-deadly-shooting-investigation

 

Not that this provides much comfort, but I don't think the murder occurred at the station. Per the other reporting, it happened on Lorain, in the vicinity, and the station was closed during the investigation.

 

My understanding is the victim was going to or leaving the train.  That's just as bad from a perception standpoint.

Also, the new seats look smaller to me for the aisle looks wider.  This would be great for ingress/egress but much a tighter sit-down for riders.  Hopefully, its just my optical illusion.

I assumed they went with tighter seats to make more room for standees during peak periods.

Also, the new seats look smaller to me for the aisle looks wider.  This would be great for ingress/egress but much a tighter sit-down for riders.  Hopefully, it’s just my optical illusion.

I assumed they went with tighter seats to make more room for standees during peak periods.

 

Seriously bad idea, IMO.  My perception is the tight quarters are one of the reasons some people are so transit averse.

I like the Red Line interiors. To me, there are two things the new Red Line interiors lack:

 

1. Automated digital "ticker" signage for next stops, emergencies, etc. I'm surprised this isn't required for ADA compliance.

 

2. Bike racks. Too many passengers have to stand or sit next to their bicycles to keep them from falling down from the motion of the train.

 

A place to put a digital ticker signage is near the ceiling next to the security camera. Maybe the security camera could be moved to the left...

 

 

 

And bike racks can also free up space on trains so they can be safely accommodated during peak and off-peak periods....

 

Also, the new seats look smaller to me for the aisle looks wider.  This would be great for ingress/egress but much a tighter sit-down for riders.  Hopefully, it’s just my optical illusion.

 

I think that is an optical illusion. I visited the display car myself this morning, then took a one-stop ride on a Red Line that was passing through at the time. My hips seemed to hit at the same point on both.

 

There is about 1" less knee room, which is probably due to a combination of thicker seat padding and possibly thicker materials used for the frame itself. The actual seat locations were unchanged, as the new seats were designed as "bolt-in" replacements per the District Director (who happened to be on-site this morning).

 

I'm about 5'11", 270 lbs., and was wearing a leather winter jacket, so I don't suspect comfort will be a problem for the average rider or ride. There are a few seats at the car ends that don't have seats in front of them (not specifically designated as ADA), like those nearest the doors, that will afford some extra legroom for taller passengers.

^I don't know where this train is with the bike rack but it looks WAAAAY more comfortable, in terms of seat size.  Overall I think the red line refresh looks great, but I wish places from transit to theaters would consider the comfort of their patrons over squeezing as many people in as possible.  I am only 6 ft tall and I am HORRIBLY uncomfortable on RTA trains...my knees rubbing that hard plastic the whole time, and if someone sits next to me forget it...more comfortable to just stand even if seats are available.  Wish there was more leg room but looks like same leg room and smaller seats. No love for the moderately tall.

^^Bad news for me. The existing seats were murder on my knees when I had to sit facing forward. I don't think I'll even fit with 1" less.

 

But I recognize I'm an outlier, so I usually stand.

Good call JetDog...I always search those seats out if they're available.  Since we're about the same height I suspect my discomfort may be the "few" extra pounds I have over you  :lol:

Thanks, KJP. Looks nice. Definitely a vast improvement and quite overdue. I was hoping for some digital signage inside the cars that could indicate upcoming stops though. Oh, well.

I don't ride the blue/green lines often but when I did I believe the automated voice accurately called out every stop. I wonder since these were renovated, did RTA add the automated voice so it can accurately call out stops for the whole line.

^I don't know where this train is with the bike rack but it looks WAAAAY more comfortable, in terms of seat size.  Overall I think the red line refresh looks great, but I wish places from transit to theaters would consider the comfort of their patrons over squeezing as many people in as possible.  I am only 6 ft tall and I am HORRIBLY uncomfortable on RTA trains...my knees rubbing that hard plastic the whole time, and if someone sits next to me forget it...more comfortable to just stand even if seats are available.  Wish there was more leg room but looks like same leg room and smaller seats. No love for the moderately tall.

Imagine being 6' 5" on the train I can't even slide my knee inward to sit forward.

I think this confirms the need for a big and tall person section or even car. You must be _______ tall to enter. Sorry, little guy, you're just not big enough yet to ride this ride.

As some of you may know, there is a free celebration on Public Square Dec. 31, with Drew Carey, from 6 p.m. to at least 12:30 a.m....at least, that's when the live TV coverage ends. The event is called "Cleveland Rocks".

 

All Rapids (except the Waterfront Line) will run ALL NIGHT on Dec. 31, so there will be continous rail service from AM on Dec. 31 to PM on Jan. 1. Happy New Year.

As some of you may know, there is a free celebration on Public Square Dec. 31, with Drew Carey, from 6 p.m. to at least 12:30 a.m....at least, that's when the live TV coverage ends. The event is called "Cleveland Rocks".

 

All Rapids (except the Waterfront Line) will run ALL NIGHT on Dec. 31, so there will be continous rail service from AM on Dec. 31 to PM on Jan. 1. Happy New Year.

 

That's great to hear, Jerry. Thanks.

Agree with everyone who says digital signage is needed. This isn't particularly hard or expensive to do, and it's quite frankly baffling why it was omitted. Not really sold on the cloth seats, either, simply because it would be nice to think I was sitting on something that could at least potentially have been sanitized recently.

 

Still a significant improvement over the old interiors, though.

Agree with everyone who says digital signage is needed. This isn't particularly hard or expensive to do, and it's quite frankly baffling why it was omitted. Not really sold on the cloth seats, either, simply because it would be nice to think I was sitting on something that could at least potentially have been sanitized recently.

 

Still a significant improvement over the old interiors, though.

 

Significant improvement yes.  But you still have to question the decision-makers.  And these are two "no-brainers" that leave you scratching your head.  I give the cloth seats a year at best before they're completely destroyed and no one wants to sit on them.

Significant improvement yes.  But you still have to question the decision-makers.  And these are two "no-brainers" that leave you scratching your head.  I give the cloth seats a year at best before they're completely destroyed and no one wants to sit on them.

 

Why do you say that about the seats? They are the same seats that have been used in the Blue/Green Line trains since 2007 and the HealthLine buses since 2008. Have you ridden those lines? If yes, what is your experience with those seats?

Agree with everyone who says digital signage is needed. This isn't particularly hard or expensive to do, and it's quite frankly baffling why it was omitted. Not really sold on the cloth seats, either, simply because it would be nice to think I was sitting on something that could at least potentially have been sanitized recently.

 

Still a significant improvement over the old interiors, though.

 

Significant improvement yes.  But you still have to question the decision-makers.  And these are two "no-brainers" that leave you scratching your head.  I give the cloth seats a year at best before they're completely destroyed and no one wants to sit on them.

 

Cloth seats exist on the Healthline and Green/Blue line. They haven't been destroyed.

Significant improvement yes.  But you still have to question the decision-makers.  And these are two "no-brainers" that leave you scratching your head.  I give the cloth seats a year at best before they're completely destroyed and no one wants to sit on them.

 

Why do you say that about the seats? They are the same seats that have been used in the Blue/Green Line trains since 2007 and the HealthLine buses since 2008. Have you ridden those lines? If yes, what is your experience with those seats?

 

I have, but from the descriptions above it sounded like the red line ones had more padding, which in my opinion would leave them to be gross in short time.

 

But, your point is well-taken KJP.  I shall withhold judgement until I see them for myself.

 

My opinion remains unchanged on the digital signage however.  Dumb move not putting something in while these cars are in for refurb.

^^Bad news for me. The existing seats were murder on my knees when I had to sit facing forward. I don't think I'll even fit with 1" less.

 

But I recognize I'm an outlier, so I usually stand.

 

RTA's constant war on tall people!!! :lol:

 

First the ticket machines and now less leg room!

 

 

Also thought id post a video of the red line arriving at Tower City. Nothing special but the crowds were nice. Just ignore the music, I was experimenting with the free music youtube lets you use!

 

Can't ignore the "death music"! What's up with that??

Can't ignore the "death music"! What's up with that??

 

Haha idk! The other ones were too jazzy! It was like the 4th song down. Next time ill use better music. It was a last second addition once I found out youtube had a huge free music library to choose from.

So I was just perusing some of GCRTA's Dual Hub planning documents from 1993. It noted that in 1988, 16,000 people every weekday used the reduced-fare (50-cents if I remember right) downtown Loop bus system -- the predecessor of today's free downtown Trolleys which carried 5,000 riders a day in 2012.

 

The same report also noted that buses on Euclid and Carnegie avenues went by an average of every 1.5 minutes in one direction during the two-hour morning rush hour. Throughout each day, these buses carried 54,000 riders per day. In 2012, the HealthLine carried 4.6 million riders, or 12,600 riders per day.

 

EDIT: while I realize the ridership on both the downtown Trolleys and the HealthLine has increased in 2013, they are probably still more in the ballpark of the 2012 numbers than the 1988 data (BTW, total system ridership in 1988 was just shy of 70 million vs. 48.2 million in 2012). I am hopeful about the 2013 data, to be released next month.

^^^I'm 6'1" and have to turn to the side slightly in Red Line seats.  I'm surprised that all trains don't have more of a mix of sideways seats, especially near the doors -- this is definitely needed with those flash crowds, such as Browns games and special events where people tend to crowd around the doors.

So I was just perusing some of GCRTA's Dual Hub planning documents from 1993. It noted that in 1988, 16,000 people every weekday used the reduced-fare (50-cents if I remember right) downtown Loop bus system -- the predecessor of today's free downtown Trolleys which carried 5,000 riders a day in 2012.

 

The same report also noted that buses on Euclid and Carnegie avenues went by an average of every 1.5 minutes in one direction during the two-hour morning rush hour. Throughout each day, these buses carried 54,000 riders per day. In 2012, the HealthLine carried 4.6 million riders, or 12,600 riders per day.

 

EDIT: while I realize the ridership on both the downtown Trolleys and the HealthLine has increased in 2013, they are probably still more in the ballpark of the 2012 numbers than the 1988 data (BTW, total system ridership in 1988 was just shy of 70 million vs. 48.2 million in 2012). I am hopeful about the 2013 data, to be released next month.

 

Well, when you've got a spokes/hub, downtown-oriented transit system and, then, downtown takes such a devastating hit in terms of jobs and retail, these numbers aren't surprising.  And jobs and retail haven't really improved downtown.  I think some of the growth may be in the growth of downtown as a restaurant entertainment center, more downtown residents and growth in some transit bus/rail hubs, like University Circle and Ohio City.  As someone who's ridden the rails regularly since the late 70s, I can tell you that evening and weekend ridership now kills that of the 70s and 80s when you'd likely see empty trains regularly after hours.  Downtown was a ghost town, and Ohio City was a struggling, run-down retail district with fixer-upper Victorians -- it only saw life on Market Saturday, as it does now (and the Market was the ONLY thing going on aside from the old bookstore on 25th and a few other joints)... Empty nighttime trains out of Terminal Tower was the norm.  You never see that today; even on Sundays.

Anyone know what the large crowds from the rapid downtown at 7:30pm was for?

So I was just perusing some of GCRTA's Dual Hub planning documents from 1993. It noted that in 1988, 16,000 people every weekday used the reduced-fare (50-cents if I remember right) downtown Loop bus system -- the predecessor of today's free downtown Trolleys which carried 5,000 riders a day in 2012.

 

The same report also noted that buses on Euclid and Carnegie avenues went by an average of every 1.5 minutes in one direction during the two-hour morning rush hour. Throughout each day, these buses carried 54,000 riders per day. In 2012, the HealthLine carried 4.6 million riders, or 12,600 riders per day.

 

EDIT: while I realize the ridership on both the downtown Trolleys and the HealthLine has increased in 2013, they are probably still more in the ballpark of the 2012 numbers than the 1988 data (BTW, total system ridership in 1988 was just shy of 70 million vs. 48.2 million in 2012). I am hopeful about the 2013 data, to be released next month.

 

aww man dual hub!

 

when you knock out approx 125k people, which is the change in population between 1988 and today, give or take, those numbers make reasonable sense. i dk that dual hub would have impacted population loss, but its very interesting to wonder what we would all be thinking about rta train services today had it been built out.

 

 

^^TSO at the Q?  Two shows today at 3 and 8 pm.

 

Yeah it must be TSO, or they are getting in line early for Donnie&Marie. Cuz that's a lot of white people...lol

 

aww man dual hub!

 

when you knock out approx 125k people, which is the change in population between 1988 and today, give or take, those numbers make reasonable sense. i dk that dual hub would have impacted population loss, but its very interesting to wonder what we would all be thinking about rta train services today had it been built out.

 

 

 

The drop isn't proportional. Sure, population loss was likely the biggest reason system ridership fell. System ridership fell from 70 million in 1988 to 48 million last year, or a 31% decline. But ridership declines were more severe on the Euclid Corridor and the downtown Loop routes. So ridership fell from 54,000 daily on the Euclid/Carnegie buses in 1988 to 12,600 on the HealthLine in 2012 -- a 77% drop. And the decline from the Loop buses' 16,000 weekday rides in 1988 to the Trolleys' 5,000 weekday rides was a drop of 69%.

 

Those routes were some pretty big ridership generators and their declines meant a loss of about 18 million riders per year. They alone accounted for almost ALL of GCRTA's 22 million lost rides from 1988 to 2012. Interestingly, GCRTA's largest capital investments since 1988 were focused most heavily on two routes -- the Red Line and the HealthLine. So while ridership in the Euclid Corridor fell 77% percent since 1988, ridership on the Red Line rose from 20,600 daily trips in 1988 to 26,500 daily trips last year -- a 30% rise.

FYI, just looking through NOACA's TIP which shows $146.5 million in rail capital and preventative maintenance expenditures budgeted for 2014-17......

 

http://www.noaca.org/modules/showdocument.aspx?documentid=757

 

$ 3.0M = LRT Blue/Green Line bridge over CSX/East93rd

$ 1.8M = Rail SOGR

$30.0M = Rail preventative maintenance

$ 5.5M = LRT vehicle reliability/SOGR

$ 4.0M = East 120th substation replacement-Red Line

$ 3.9M = West 117th substation replacement-Red Line

$ 0.7M = Sectionalize Tower City catenary

$ 2.1M = Second feed for East55th substation

$40.0M = Blue Line extension

$ 3.6M = Puritas substation replace-Red Line

$ 6.0M = Rail infrastructure program

$ 4.4M = LRT replace 9 street crossings

$ 1.0M = Mayfield Road transit station construction-Red Line

$12.3M = Brookpard Road transit station rehab-Red Line

$20.4M = LRT cab signaling East79th-Shaker Square

$ 4.7M = LRT East 116th station rehab-Blue/Green Lines

$ 1.0M = Signal system replacement-Red Line

$ 1.0M = Cab signal replacement-Red Line

$ 1.1M = LRT station platform reconstruction in Shaker Hts

 

$146.5 million TOTAL rail

^ nice!

 

Now to the healthline...

 

I was heading downtown around 6 and just missed the bus (every time!). So we are waiting in the cold and 15 minutes later (on time) the next bus arrives, but it's a "not in service" bus for training! I figured another bus would be right behind it but it took another 10 minutes! Waiting near a half hour when it supposed to be 15 minutes at the longest, especially when it is cold is not fun. And although the stations look nice, except that they are beginning to rust and the ticket stations look like crap, they provide NO protection from the wind.

 

The other people at the station were not happy with their experiences and had some negative things to say about RTA.

Im so proud if RTA for actually having the political will to get the Healthline built. That said, I have to agree that its not the best experience for the average transit user.  I dont really understand why there are SO many stops, why they're all similarly drafty in design, and what necessitated the poorly designed ticket machines at every stop. 

 

I know it's not true BRT, but I actually like Cincinnati's Metro*Plus better.  Not only are the stops more spaced out to speed up service, but the stops are at standard roadside boarding locations.  This is great because there are some times when I'll be standing at the Metro*Plus stop hoping for a Metro*Plus bus because it's faster, but if that bus is behind schedule for any reason, I can still catch the two local buses running the same route. In addition, I like that they established the line with the option to improve stops and stations in heavily used locations. Currently, they're building a number of stations in the university and hospital areas with realtime info and upgraded seating and lighting. In the future, stations in certain neighborhoods will be able to have local input into design.  It seems to be a more stable, incremental improvement.

 

Metro*Plus is certainly not the best in transit by any means. I simply mention it because I see it as a different approach to the same solution. Kansas City took this same approach with their BRT light lines. I hope that RTA is able to keep the Healthline viable as the maintenance of all those stations begins to take a financial toll.

Does anyone know at what point the busses get replaced? I tried looking and thought I saw the bus was at over 1 million miles. Additionally I looked at the drivers inspection of the vehicle and the handicap ramps are broken and the horn doesn't work.

Does anyone know at what point the busses get replaced? I tried looking and thought I saw the bus was at over 1 million miles. Additionally I looked at the drivers inspection of the vehicle and the handicap ramps are broken and the horn doesn't work.

That has been a problem for years especially at Windermere the drivers have to always manually lift the ramps. According to RTA's 2012 Annual Report they set aside $7 million to replace their rolling stock and were supposed to purchase 60 new buses this year.

 

http://www.riderta.com/annual/2012

Anyone know what the large crowds from the rapid downtown at 7:30pm was for?

  Downtown was a ghost town, and Ohio City was a struggling, run-down retail district with fixer-upper Victorians -- it only saw life on Market Saturday, as it does now (and the Market was the ONLY thing going on aside from the old bookstore on 25th and a few other joints)... Empty nighttime trains out of Terminal Tower was the norm.  You never see that today; even on Sundays.

At least part of why more people are on the trains is that they were forced to by the end of downtown service on many lines (e.g., 25, 75, 39, 7, 9, 32, etc.).

A very happy 100th birthday to the Blue and Green Lines today!

 

http://www.riderta.com//dec-17-1913-first-light-rail-service-operates-shaker-heights

Anyone know what the large crowds from the rapid downtown at 7:30pm was for?

  Downtown was a ghost town, and Ohio City was a struggling, run-down retail district with fixer-upper Victorians -- it only saw life on Market Saturday, as it does now (and the Market was the ONLY thing going on aside from the old bookstore on 25th and a few other joints)... Empty nighttime trains out of Terminal Tower was the norm.  You never see that today; even on Sundays.

At least part of why more people are on the trains is that they were forced to by the end of downtown service on many lines (e.g., 25, 75, 39, 7, 9, 32, etc.).

 

Does RTA publically share ridership data for any of their bus routes? Would be interesting to know if this affected bus ridership.

A very happy 100th birthday to the Blue and Green Lines today!

 

http://www.riderta.com//dec-17-1913-first-light-rail-service-operates-shaker-heights

 

Good for RTA for recognizing this date.  How about the PD?

Im so proud if RTA for actually having the political will to get the Healthline built. That said, I have to agree that its not the best experience for the average transit user. 

 

I don’t give RTA accolades for the Health Line.  Political will would have been to complete the Dual Hub rail line, preferably entirely or, at least, mostly in subway, from downtown to University Circle.  The HL was a compromise cheaper solution that already (in just 5 years operation), as we’ve seen, has speed and capacity issues even with the much smaller ridership numbers along this route compared to the 1980s when Dual Hub was planned.  Maybe sometime in the future (I likely won't be around), some smart, aggressive cookie will convert the HL to LRT with a subway connection/Rapid tie-in into Tower City in accord with the original Dual Hub.  Now THAT would be political will. 

This is what the average machine looks like. The credit/debit card purchase no longer works on several of the machines as well.

 

Yikes! Any sense whether it's vandalism or just wear and tear?  I know there were "corrosion" issues that were part of the Xerox tussle, but I think those had to do with steal parts (the base?) so i assume are unrelated.

You should send that pic to the Plain Dealer.  Time for them to reopen an investigative piece on trail of money on the POP machine deal.  Someone should have been fired.

^^ I can tell you exactly why the payment machines look like that. It's the little sh@ts in high school and middle school who ride the bus to school and think they are funny. I called them out the one day and the response was "You think your'e our mom or something?" My reply was "no I don't which is why I don't care if your ass goes to jail or not." I then called the RTA police who showed up and arrested them all. Awesome!

^^ I can tell you exactly why the payment machines look like that. It's the little sh@ts in high school and middle school who ride the bus to school and think they are funny. I called them out the one day and the response was "You think your'e our mom or something?" My reply was "no I don't which is why I don't care if your ass goes to jail or not." I then called the RTA police who showed up and arrested them all. Awesome!

 

I think my reply would have been "how would you know if I'm your mom or not?" Glad to hear they were arrested. Could be the start of a long and illustrious career for them.

^^ I can tell you exactly why the payment machines look like that. It's the little sh@ts in high school and middle school who ride the bus to school and think they are funny. I called them out the one day and the response was "You think your'e our mom or something?" My reply was "no I don't which is why I don't care if your ass goes to jail or not." I then called the RTA police who showed up and arrested them all. Awesome!

 

POP machines exist with transit systems all over the world, where other bad kids reside.  These things weren't built to stand up to the elements or kids.  They also weren't built to stand up.    :whip:

^^ I can tell you exactly why the payment machines look like that. It's the little sh@ts in high school and middle school who ride the bus to school and think they are funny. I called them out the one day and the response was "You think your'e our mom or something?" My reply was "no I don't which is why I don't care if your ass goes to jail or not." I then called the RTA police who showed up and arrested them all. Awesome!

 

I think my reply would have been "how would you know if I'm your mom or not?" Glad to hear they were arrested. Could be the start of a long and illustrious career for them.

 

Or "No, but last night she asked me to give you hell if I saw you acting up".  Or "I could be your dad, I doubt you know any different".  Seriously, as soon as I saw that I figured that's what it was. 

 

Using the Red Line as part of the busing program did "for" it what the program itself did for the CMSD.

Maybe teenagers used the Rapid a long time ago to get to/from school, but I don't see them on the Rapid today.

^^ I can tell you exactly why the payment machines look like that. It's the little sh@ts in high school and middle school who ride the bus to school and think they are funny. I called them out the one day and the response was "You think your'e our mom or something?" My reply was "no I don't which is why I don't care if your ass goes to jail or not." I then called the RTA police who showed up and arrested them all. Awesome!

 

Awesome story.

 

I feel like some of it has to be just from the machines being low quality. Every machine I have seen has similar issues. Although I do think vandalism plays a part, I would be surprised if every machine had been vandalized like that. RTA has camera's in the stations, they should use them. And although the red part looks terrible on most machines, the screens are fine which you wouldn't think would be true if vandalism was the sole cause.

 

Add the fact that the credit/debit cards don't work on several of the machines and I have to believe that the machines are just crap. I have never seen another ticket machine that uses that cheap sticker material.