Service alert for Red Line:

http://www.riderta.com/service-alerts/june-7-21-construction-causes-changes-red-line-service

 

Service alert for Blue/Green Line:

http://www.riderta.com/service-alerts/june-7-8-and-14-15-buses-replace-rail-service-east-tower-city

I encourage everyone NOT to fill out ODOT's "transit survey". It looks like an attempt to "educate" us that we "can't afford" transit, and/or to gather "data" showing that the public wants things we "can't afford". Where is the button saying I vote to increase transit funding?

 

Well if you fill out the graphical survey, it takes you to a questionnaire afterward.  The very first question asks you "How did you feel about the budget" and the first option is "I didn’t have enough money to spend on the things I thought were important."

 

Update on grass-cutting.

 

The work is contracted out, it is not done by RTA crews. There was a paperwork issue and the contractor was delayed in starting. The firm is on-board now and is hustling to get caught up.

 

Thanks for the update, Jerry.

That's unfortunate that the east side red line is closed until the 21st!

^ Yes, but look at all the progress that's being made!

I see the RTA has new busses,  3200s they are Articulated busses, will they only act as shuttles on the East side or eventually replace the healthline? They seem longer than the healthline bus so it would make sense given the overcrowding issues.

 

That's unfortunate that the east side red line is closed until the 21st!

 

It's actually to the 29th: http://www.riderta.com/news/june-7-29-east-side-rail-red-bluegreen-construction

When did RTA get these busses?

 

I thought RTA was getting a bunch of new articulated buses for the new Clifton route. Maybe that's these?

I thought RTA was getting a bunch of new articulated buses for the new Clifton route. Maybe that's these?

I just found out that these are the new Clifton buses. Shame for me as an east side rider these are nice! I wanted these for the healthline.

I thought RTA was getting a bunch of new articulated buses for the new Clifton route. Maybe that's these?

 

 

More bendy busses makes it possible to carry more passengers without increasing the level of service. Less time between buses would be much better, not to mention safer for bicyclists.

I thought RTA was getting a bunch of new articulated buses for the new Clifton route. Maybe that's these?

I just found out that these are the new Clifton buses. Shame for me as an east side rider these are nice! I wanted these for the healthline.

 

According to New Flyer's website, the Xcelsior line was only introduced in 2008, the same year the HealthLine opened for business. Such is the nature of evolving technology.

I thought RTA was getting a bunch of new articulated buses for the new Clifton route. Maybe that's these?

 

 

More bendy busses makes it possible to carry more passengers without increasing the level of service. Less time between buses would be much better, not to mention safer for bicyclists.

 

Articulated buses allow for increased carrying capacity with only a minimal uptick in cost of service delivery, and at substantially less cost than increasing the number of both vehicles and operators. Increased frequency is ideal, but not always possible within the budget constraints we face.

I hope the new articulateds have a bit less longitudinal seating than (esp) the Health Line and those on the 22 and 26 lines on the West Side.... I know the idea of longitudinal seating is to create more space for standees, and yes, the HL does have some crush loads at rush hour.  But the HL just seems rather claustrophobic to me, even when the buses aren't packed.... From the photos, the new articulated buses appear longer than any buses RTA currently owns... but maybe that's just an illusion.

^I think some of the HL layout (which I don't like either) is dictated by the left side doors.  It's really tough to have a "normal" interior with so many doors.

All of RTA's articulated buses are the same length, in the range of 60-63 feet.

I was extremely disappointed to see such a major change so poorly communicated.

 

http://www.riderta.com/service-alerts/june-8-bus-stops-change-downtown-superior-ave-westbound

 

There seemed to be massive amounts of confusion this afternoon.  I noticed some paper signage this morning on a trip back from the Clinic, and then watched huge crowds running to catch the 22 at the new stop on my way home from work.  There was apparently a tweet around 3pm, but I don't recall anything about the changes on RTA's website in the stories about the most recent service change.  This is pretty important stuff, and RTA, which normally communicates well, really dropped the ball.

^This Service Alert was posted to the RTA Web site on Friday, June 6, and the Service Alert was linked to a News Box on the Home Page. There were other efforts to communicate this, but I do not have them at my fingertips right now.

I was extremely disappointed to see such a major change so poorly communicated.

 

http://www.riderta.com/service-alerts/june-8-bus-stops-change-downtown-superior-ave-westbound

 

There seemed to be massive amounts of confusion this afternoon.  I noticed some paper signage this morning on a trip back from the Clinic, and then watched huge crowds running to catch the 22 at the new stop on my way home from work.  There was apparently a tweet around 3pm, but I don't recall anything about the changes on RTA's website in the stories about the most recent service change.  This is pretty important stuff, and RTA, which normally communicates well, really dropped the ball.

 

I've been seeing tweets about this every single day for at least the past week.

I was extremely disappointed to see such a major change so poorly communicated.

 

http://www.riderta.com/service-alerts/june-8-bus-stops-change-downtown-superior-ave-westbound

 

There seemed to be massive amounts of confusion this afternoon.  I noticed some paper signage this morning on a trip back from the Clinic, and then watched huge crowds running to catch the 22 at the new stop on my way home from work.  There was apparently a tweet around 3pm, but I don't recall anything about the changes on RTA's website in the stories about the most recent service change.  This is pretty important stuff, and RTA, which normally communicates well, really dropped the ball.

 

I've been seeing tweets about this every single day for at least the past week.

My bad.  I scrolled back farther and saw some mentions from 6/7 and 6/8.  Still felt bad watching all those people running.  At least the wait allowed me some extra time to admire the new signs, they are FANTASTIC.

I got passed up at Adelbert/Euclid around 4:20ish by a westbound Red Line shuttle bus that was nowhere near crowded, despite Adelbert being a shuttle stop today for Parade the Circle (according to RTA).I'm now on a westbound Healthline bus packed to the rafters.  Very infuriating.

Just guessing, but I think the Red Line shuttle buses were picking up people only at Red Line stations. I could be wrong, though.

Re: Adelbert Station

 

Normally, many people going to Parade the Circle would ride the Red Line, but this year, that option was not available. So, RTA arranged for the Red Line shuttle bus (66R) to stop at the Adelbert Station. Parade the Circle attracted a record crowd of 80,000 persons. We're glad to see many of them used RTA.

Just guessing, but I think the Red Line shuttle buses were picking up people only at Red Line stations. I could be wrong, though.

 

That would make sense.  Fewer stops = faster trips.  That's the point of a rapid, isn't it?

 

It seems like there's about zero coordination between the train shutdowns and popular weekend events.  Is it realized that there seems to be a good number of people who will take the train but disdain buses? 

Just guessing, but I think the Red Line shuttle buses were picking up people only at Red Line stations. I could be wrong, though.

 

That would make sense.  Fewer stops = faster trips.  That's the point of a rapid, isn't it?

 

It seems like there's about zero coordination between the train shutdowns and popular weekend events.  Is it realized that there seems to be a good number of people who will take the train but disdain buses? 

 

There's 52 weekends in a year. The bulk of the weekends that are usable for construction are, unfortunately, the fair-weather season weekends that are also popular for outdoor festivities. The construction that is going on in Little Italy right now is, by its nature, something that has to be performed in one continuous operation. This was the best available window of opportunity as defined by those with more knowledge of the construction schedule and contract than me.

 

The Red Line Shuttle buses were supposed to be stopping at the Adelbert stop for access to Parade the Circle. If that did not happen in one or more instances, we apologize. We will try our best to ensure all operators are clear on these exceptions in the future. Unfortunately, this sometimes falls under the heading of, "you can lead a horse to water...".

Stepping off the Red Line last night at Triskett Station. It is nice to live in a city that has trains you can ride.

 

Stepping off the Red Line last night at Triskett Station. It is nice to live in a city that has trains you can ride.

 

Sure wish east siders could say the same.

Sure wish east siders could say the same.

 

True. Red Line-East returns on the east side after next weekend June 29. And the Blue/Green lines have been occasionally shut down for the Inner Belt bridge construction/deconstruction this summer, while major repairs on crossings and some new track installations are occurring last weekend and this weekend in Shaker Square (see pictures at http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=6956.msg712548#msg712548).

 

It's a busy time, so check GCRTA rider alerts and its Twitter page for updates. Can you imagine what similar heavy construction periods were like for us 10-30 years ago before social media?? You got the tools. Use 'em!

Just saw some numbers and rail ridership is down this year probably due to many factors.

 

Red Line

-3.04% in January

-10.16% in February

-0.63% in March.

 

Green/Blue Lines

-10.38% in January

-13.06% in February

-1.74% in March.

Probably because of all the weather-related shutdowns of businesses and the rail system itself. The slight drop off in March is a little curious, however. I'm sure all the construction this summer isn't helping either. But that's little short-term pain for some long-term gain.

I am a frequent Red Line rider, traveling on many workdays from the Windermere park-and-ride to the W. 25 station in Ohio City. I had been using the Green Line as an alternate the past two weeks but decided to try the Red Line shuttle this morning since I knew that East Side service had been restored up to Cedar-University. All I can say is that I can't wait for the Red Line to return to normal service next week!

 

My experience this morning was truly horrendous. I left Windermere at 7:56 and arrived at W. 25 at 9:05. This is a trip that normally takes a little more than 20 minutes. The ticket machines at Windermere were only partially working, there didn't seem to be coordination between the shuttle's arrival at Cedar and the train's departure, and the lack of information at Windermere was really surprising. The information on RTA's website has been helpful, but I think it should tell travelers to set aside at least three times their normal travel time if they are planning to ride the Red Line on the East Side.

 

Though it is not as convenient for me, I have enjoyed my experimentation with the Green Line and will be back on it tomorrow, and I will not be using the Red Line to get back to Windermere tonight.

I am a frequent Red Line rider, traveling on many workdays from the Windermere park-and-ride to the W. 25 station in Ohio City. I had been using the Green Line as an alternate the past two weeks but decided to try the Red Line shuttle this morning since I knew that East Side service had been restored up to Cedar-University. All I can say is that I can't wait for the Red Line to return to normal service next week!

 

My experience this morning was truly horrendous. I left Windermere at 7:56 and arrived at W. 25 at 9:05. This is a trip that normally takes a little more than 20 minutes. The ticket machines at Windermere were only partially working, there didn't seem to be coordination between the shuttle's arrival at Cedar and the train's departure, and the lack of information at Windermere was really surprising. The information on RTA's website has been helpful, but I think it should tell travelers to set aside at least three times their normal travel time if they are planning to ride the Red Line on the East Side.

 

Though it is not as convenient for me, I have enjoyed my experimentation with the Green Line and will be back on it tomorrow, and I will not be using the Red Line to get back to Windermere tonight.

 

Where, may I ask, do you live (generally of course)?

Where, may I ask, do you live (generally of course)?

 

On the north side of Cleveland Heights, near Noble and Quilliams. I live on the 41 bus line but usually drive to Windermere.

Btw, Philadelphia's SEPTA has implemented summertime all-night service on its Broad Street Subway and Market-Frankford el ... to great success, rider-wise.

 

Hint-hint RTA... Isn't it about time our local transit agency get off the schnide and, at least, give riders late night rail service on, say, the weekends ... like RTA used to in the 1990s?  That downtown has/is growing exponentially entertainment/living-wise is old news.  Wouldn't be nice if RTA's rail service provided a serious alternative to driving?  The 12-12:30p shutdown time for Cleveland's rail lines is earlier than most systems anyway, but these early quit times make the Rapid all but unusable on weekend evenings, especially summer weekends.  Isn't it time RTA get with the times on this issue? 

 

How about it Jerry?  JetDog?

 

http://www.septa.org/service/all-night.html

Case in point this evening why the payment system is ridiculous. A group of about 20 from CWRU were waiting at North Coast for the WFL In addition to a handful of others waiting. The driver made every single person swipe and board through one door. You can imagine how long that took. Nice to see people using the rapid no question but come on!  Let's hurry up overhauling this payment method system !!

Case in point this evening why the payment system is ridiculous. A group of about 20 from CWRU were waiting at North Coast for the WFL In addition to a handful of others waiting. The driver made every single person swipe and board through one door. You can imagine how long that took. Nice to see people using the rapid no question but come on!  Let's hurry up overhauling this payment method system !!

 

Yes, the plethora of fare-payment systems throughout RTA's system makes using the system confusing, even for those of us who use it frequently. This morning, for example, I boarded the Red Line shuttle at Windermere through the back door, assuming that, since the Red Line uses a proof-of-payment system, except at Tower City, that the shuttle would too. This assumption was incorrect, and the driver asked me to come forward to swipe.

 

I know there are reasons for the multitude of fare-payment arrangements, but it is difficult to keep them all straight and daunting for someone unfamiliar with the system.

Case in point this evening why the payment system is ridiculous. A group of about 20 from CWRU were waiting at North Coast for the WFL In addition to a handful of others waiting. The driver made every single person swipe and board through one door. You can imagine how long that took. Nice to see people using the rapid no question but come on!  Let's hurry up overhauling this payment method system !!

Unless each train station in the entire system has a token booth and a no paid zone and paid fare zone, this will not work on the Shaker Rapid. 

 

As I always say, there is room for improvement, but historical, from downtown going East, you pay upon boarding the Shaker Rapid.  from the Eastern terminals going West, you pay upon exiting.

 

• Back in the day, all stations from Shaker Square westbound, were considered "express" and the stations east of Shaker Square were "local" and there were two different fares.  [i remember when the fare was local -25¢/express-35¢ and then it jump to 60/75¢ when I entered Shaker]
  
• If you boarded a train at Lee Road and exited at Coventry, that was considered a "local" fare.
  
• If you boarded a train at Lee Road and exited at 116, that was considered an "express" fare.
  
• Eastbound, you paid when you boarded so, if you boarded a train at any "express" stop you paid the express fair, regardless of where you were going to exit.  If you boarded at any station east of Shaker Square you paid the "local" fare.
  

Due to the Shaker Rapids layout, only the stations stations west of Shaker Square can be modified to provide a place to have turnstiles and where a toll booth clerk can watch both the eastbound and westbound platforms. 

 

Im not sure how the fare payment system can be modified to mimic the HL on the Shaker Rapid and be effective, so that RTA does not lose revenue.

Case in point this evening why the payment system is ridiculous. A group of about 20 from CWRU were waiting at North Coast for the WFL In addition to a handful of others waiting. The driver made every single person swipe and board through one door. You can imagine how long that took. Nice to see people using the rapid no question but come on!  Let's hurry up overhauling this payment method system !!

Unless each train station in the entire system has a token booth and a no paid zone and paid fare zone, this will not work on the Shaker Rapid. 

 

As I always say, there is room for improvement, but historical, from downtown going East, you pay upon boarding the Shaker Rapid.  from the Eastern terminals going West, you pay upon exiting.

 

• Back in the day, all stations from Shaker Square westbound, were considered "express" and the stations east of Shaker Square were "local" and there were two different fares.  [i remember when the fare was local -25¢/express-35¢ and then it jump to 60/75¢ when I entered Shaker]
  
• If you boarded a train at Lee Road and exited at Coventry, that was considered a "local" fare.
  
• If you boarded a train at Lee Road and exited at 116, that was considered an "express" fare.
  
• Eastbound, you paid when you boarded so, if you boarded a train at any "express" stop you paid the express fair, regardless of where you were going to exit.  If you boarded at any station east of Shaker Square you paid the "local" fare.
  

Due to the Shaker Rapids layout, only the stations stations west of Shaker Square can be modified to provide a place to have turnstiles and where a toll booth clerk can watch both the eastbound and westbound platforms. 

 

Im not sure how the fare payment system can be modified to mimic the HL on the Shaker Rapid and be effective, so that RTA does not lose revenue.

 

Every other light rail system I have ever been on uses proof-of-payment, exactly like the Red Line. There's no reason that can't be implemented on the Blue/Green Lines. I doubt that there would be significant revenue loss from that.

Case in point this evening why the payment system is ridiculous. A group of about 20 from CWRU were waiting at North Coast for the WFL In addition to a handful of others waiting. The driver made every single person swipe and board through one door. You can imagine how long that took. Nice to see people using the rapid no question but come on!  Let's hurry up overhauling this payment method system !!

Unless each train station in the entire system has a token booth and a no paid zone and paid fare zone, this will not work on the Shaker Rapid. 

 

As I always say, there is room for improvement, but historical, from downtown going East, you pay upon boarding the Shaker Rapid.  from the Eastern terminals going West, you pay upon exiting.

 

• Back in the day, all stations from Shaker Square westbound, were considered "express" and the stations east of Shaker Square were "local" and there were two different fares.  [i remember when the fare was local -25¢/express-35¢ and then it jump to 60/75¢ when I entered Shaker]
  
• If you boarded a train at Lee Road and exited at Coventry, that was considered a "local" fare.
  
• If you boarded a train at Lee Road and exited at 116, that was considered an "express" fare.
  
• Eastbound, you paid when you boarded so, if you boarded a train at any "express" stop you paid the express fair, regardless of where you were going to exit.  If you boarded at any station east of Shaker Square you paid the "local" fare.
  

Due to the Shaker Rapids layout, only the stations stations west of Shaker Square can be modified to provide a place to have turnstiles and where a toll booth clerk can watch both the eastbound and westbound platforms. 

 

Im not sure how the fare payment system can be modified to mimic the HL on the Shaker Rapid and be effective, so that RTA does not lose revenue.

 

Every other light rail system I have ever been on uses proof-of-payment, exactly like the Red Line. There's no reason that can't be implemented on the Blue/Green Lines. I doubt that there would be significant revenue loss from that.

 

What systems?  Are they NEW BUILD systems not a light rail system that is half express half street car.  I don't think P-O-P will work on the Shaker Rapid or RTA would have already implemented this on Shaker portion of the system.

^There's no reason POP wouldn't work on the Blue/Green line.  The only explanation why it hasn't been implemented (which RTA may have offered) is the expense of installing utilities and fare machines at all the LRT stations.

 

Once RTA adopts a contactless fare card (which I think RTA plans to do within the next few years), traditional front door boarding/paying should at least speed up, even without any other changes. 

 

But at that point I would also end the historic Blue/Green line payment process (pay enter eastbound, pay exit westbound) and replace it with a hybrid POP scheme. Regardless of direction, Blue/Green passengers would be able to board at the front door and pay for a fare card with cash or with their farecard, or, only when the number of waiting passengers warrants it, board at the rear after already deducting a fare on the platform.  Passengers leaving the system at Tower City would still pass through the turnstiles which, as on the Red Line now, provides a nice backstop.  I don't think there'd be all that much fare leakage. 

 

Installing smart card fare deduction equipment would really only be necessary at a handful of platforms that see high numbers of passengers boarding a mid-journey train, which might just be some Waterfront Line stops, Shaker Square, and maybe a couple others.

 

I'd also allow free transfers between the Red and Blue/Green line.

Case in point this evening why the payment system is ridiculous. A group of about 20 from CWRU were waiting at North Coast for the WFL In addition to a handful of others waiting. The driver made every single person swipe and board through one door. You can imagine how long that took. Nice to see people using the rapid no question but come on!  Let's hurry up overhauling this payment method system !!

Unless each train station in the entire system has a token booth and a no paid zone and paid fare zone, this will not work on the Shaker Rapid. 

 

As I always say, there is room for improvement, but historical, from downtown going East, you pay upon boarding the Shaker Rapid.  from the Eastern terminals going West, you pay upon exiting.

 

• Back in the day, all stations from Shaker Square westbound, were considered "express" and the stations east of Shaker Square were "local" and there were two different fares.  [i remember when the fare was local -25¢/express-35¢ and then it jump to 60/75¢ when I entered Shaker]
  
• If you boarded a train at Lee Road and exited at Coventry, that was considered a "local" fare.
  
• If you boarded a train at Lee Road and exited at 116, that was considered an "express" fare.
  
• Eastbound, you paid when you boarded so, if you boarded a train at any "express" stop you paid the express fair, regardless of where you were going to exit.  If you boarded at any station east of Shaker Square you paid the "local" fare.
  

Due to the Shaker Rapids layout, only the stations stations west of Shaker Square can be modified to provide a place to have turnstiles and where a toll booth clerk can watch both the eastbound and westbound platforms. 

 

Im not sure how the fare payment system can be modified to mimic the HL on the Shaker Rapid and be effective, so that RTA does not lose revenue.

 

Every other light rail system I have ever been on uses proof-of-payment, exactly like the Red Line. There's no reason that can't be implemented on the Blue/Green Lines. I doubt that there would be significant revenue loss from that.

 

What systems?  Are they NEW BUILD systems not a light rail system that is half express half street car.  I don't think P-O-P will work on the Shaker Rapid or RTA would have already implemented this on Shaker portion of the system.

 

The system I use most frequently is the Baltimore Light Rail. It runs like a streetcar downtown but as a light rail system in the north and south suburbs. They have two ticket machines at each of the stations at which you can buy a ticket. It's complete POP just like the Red Line. Logistically, it is no different than the Green/Blue Lines, which is why I'm confident in saying that there's no reason it can't be done in Cleveland

^There's no reason POP wouldn't work on the Blue/Green line.  The only explanation why it hasn't been implemented (which RTA may have offered) is the expense of installing utilities and fare machines at all the LRT stations.

 

Once RTA adopts a contactless fare card (which I think RTA plans to do within the next few years), traditional front door boarding/paying should at least speed up, even without any other changes. 

 

But at that point I would also end the historic Blue/Green line payment process (pay enter eastbound, pay exit westbound) and replace it with a hybrid POP scheme. Regardless of direction, Blue/Green passengers would be able to board at the front door and pay for a fare card with cash or with their farecard, or, only when the number of waiting passengers warrants it, board at the rear after already deducting a fare on the platform.  Passengers leaving the system at Tower City would still pass through the turnstiles which, as on the Red Line now, provides a nice backstop.  I don't think there'd be all that much fare leakage. 

 

Installing smart card fare deduction equipment would really only be necessary at a handful of platforms that see high numbers of passengers boarding a mid-journey train, which might just be some Waterfront Line stops, Shaker Square, and maybe a couple others.

 

I'd also allow free transfers between the Red and Blue/Green line.

It's not the first.  I'm still waiting on the "announcements" and "train alert" system promised back in the 80s!

 

Now I do agree when the system goes "smart card" there will be no excuse.  I think the fare hardware will be needed at all stations.  Especially Lee Rd (2), Warrensville (2), West Green/Green.

^There's no reason POP wouldn't work on the Blue/Green line.  The only explanation why it hasn't been implemented (which RTA may have offered) is the expense of installing utilities and fare machines at all the LRT stations.

 

Once RTA adopts a contactless fare card (which I think RTA plans to do within the next few years), traditional front door boarding/paying should at least speed up, even without any other changes. 

 

But at that point I would also end the historic Blue/Green line payment process (pay enter eastbound, pay exit westbound) and replace it with a hybrid POP scheme. Regardless of direction, Blue/Green passengers would be able to board at the front door and pay for a fare card with cash or with their farecard, or, only when the number of waiting passengers warrants it, board at the rear after already deducting a fare on the platform.  Passengers leaving the system at Tower City would still pass through the turnstiles which, as on the Red Line now, provides a nice backstop.  I don't think there'd be all that much fare leakage. 

 

Installing smart card fare deduction equipment would really only be necessary at a handful of platforms that see high numbers of passengers boarding a mid-journey train, which might just be some Waterfront Line stops, Shaker Square, and maybe a couple others.

 

I'd also allow free transfers between the Red and Blue/Green line.

 

Actually if you had system-wide POP, Blue/Green riders could enter and leave any door... Farecards would be checked randomly by roving RTA cops...  drivers would open all doors, which would speed boarding and reduce station dwell time as it does on the Red and Health Lines.

Case in point this evening why the payment system is ridiculous. A group of about 20 from CWRU were waiting at North Coast for the WFL In addition to a handful of others waiting. The driver made every single person swipe and board through one door. You can imagine how long that took. Nice to see people using the rapid no question but come on!  Let's hurry up overhauling this payment method system !!

Unless each train station in the entire system has a token booth and a no paid zone and paid fare zone, this will not work on the Shaker Rapid. 

 

As I always say, there is room for improvement, but historical, from downtown going East, you pay upon boarding the Shaker Rapid.  from the Eastern terminals going West, you pay upon exiting.

 

• Back in the day, all stations from Shaker Square westbound, were considered "express" and the stations east of Shaker Square were "local" and there were two different fares.  [i remember when the fare was local -25¢/express-35¢ and then it jump to 60/75¢ when I entered Shaker]
  
• If you boarded a train at Lee Road and exited at Coventry, that was considered a "local" fare.
  
• If you boarded a train at Lee Road and exited at 116, that was considered an "express" fare.
  
• Eastbound, you paid when you boarded so, if you boarded a train at any "express" stop you paid the express fair, regardless of where you were going to exit.  If you boarded at any station east of Shaker Square you paid the "local" fare.
  

Due to the Shaker Rapids layout, only the stations stations west of Shaker Square can be modified to provide a place to have turnstiles and where a toll booth clerk can watch both the eastbound and westbound platforms. 

 

Im not sure how the fare payment system can be modified to mimic the HL on the Shaker Rapid and be effective, so that RTA does not lose revenue.

 

Every other light rail system I have ever been on uses proof-of-payment, exactly like the Red Line. There's no reason that can't be implemented on the Blue/Green Lines. I doubt that there would be significant revenue loss from that.

 

What systems?  Are they NEW BUILD systems not a light rail system that is half express half street car.  I don't think P-O-P will work on the Shaker Rapid or RTA would have already implemented this on Shaker portion of the system.

 

The problem isn't POP, it can work on the healthline it can work on the blue and green line

The problem is the fare machines.

 

Think  about it. Every Healthline station has a fare machine to take payment. That required alot of stuff to do, power, data and the machines them selves.  Now take the cost of retrofitting both platforms at each blue and green line station with data, power and a fare machine just to make POP work on the route.

 

The solution is that each train would have a fare machine onboard and swipe and tap locations at every door on the train. It is much cheaper to fit fare machines to 20 trains than >60 machines for every station.

 

 

Actually if you had system-wide POP, Blue/Green riders could enter and leave any door... Farecards would be checked randomly by roving RTA cops...  drivers would open all doors, which would speed boarding and reduce station dwell time as it does on the Red and Health Lines.

 

Yes, I know how vanilla POP works, but because of the costs of full equipment installation at stations and the general cynicism about POP, I was suggesting a hybrid system.  There's really nothing wrong with requiring front door boarding at surface stations in most cases, when only a handful of riders get on, or allowing passengers to purchase fares on-board. The goal should be to improve boarding time while retaining fare verification routines that don't slow things down.  I might be taking the suspicion about POP too seriously, but there seems to be conventional wisdom that fare skipping on the HL is rampant, even with the occasional police checks.

 

I think biker16 is right, though. Given the high share of riders who enter or exit at Tower City or use passes of some sort, I'm guessing fare leakage is going to be fairly low as long as we require exit fare verification there.  Better just to keep things simple and adopt the fairly standard pay/tap on-board model, with POP-like random checks.

Actually if you had system-wide POP, Blue/Green riders could enter and leave any door... Farecards would be checked randomly by roving RTA cops...  drivers would open all doors, which would speed boarding and reduce station dwell time as it does on the Red and Health Lines.

 

Yes, I know how vanilla POP works, but because of the costs of full equipment installation at stations and the general cynicism about POP, I was suggesting a hybrid system.  There's really nothing wrong with requiring front door boarding at surface stations in most cases, when only a handful of riders get on, or allowing passengers to purchase fares on-board. The goal should be to improve boarding time while retaining fare verification routines that don't slow things down.  I might be taking the suspicion about POP too seriously, but there seems to be conventional wisdom that fare skipping on the HL is rampant, even with the occasional police checks.

 

I think biker16 is right, though. Given the high share of riders who enter or exit at Tower City or use passes of some sort, I'm guessing fare leakage is going to be fairly low as long as we require exit fare verification there.  Better just to keep things simple and adopt the fairly standard pay/tap on-board model, with POP-like random checks.

 

No, I didn't meant to imply you didn't know, because I know you know.  I just thought you were incorporating the soon to be  inaugurated magnetic touch fare cards with POP... I believe RTA has implied or stated that installing fare machines at the 30-plus Blue-Green stops would be too expensive, but I think it would be money well spent.  I would also think RTA could get FTA matching funds for such a capital expense.

 

^Gotcha, sorry for being defensive.

 

I'm curious how RTA is going to implement contact-less fare cards into POP. Will they require everyone to get a time-stamped paper ticket for each ride?  Or will the roving enforcers have equipment that can tell if a rider's card tapped a fare on a platform or vehicle?  Every modern smart card system I've ridden recently has had traditional turnstile payment systems.  Anyone know how this works on the Baltimore light rail with the Charm Card?

 

UPDATE: looks like in SF, POP inspectors have equipment to read Clipper Cards and see their tap history.

Case in point this evening why the payment system is ridiculous. A group of about 20 from CWRU were waiting at North Coast for the WFL In addition to a handful of others waiting. The driver made every single person swipe and board through one door. You can imagine how long that took. Nice to see people using the rapid no question but come on!  Let's hurry up overhauling this payment method system !!

Unless each train station in the entire system has a token booth and a no paid zone and paid fare zone, this will not work on the Shaker Rapid. 

 

As I always say, there is room for improvement, but historical, from downtown going East, you pay upon boarding the Shaker Rapid.  from the Eastern terminals going West, you pay upon exiting.

 

• Back in the day, all stations from Shaker Square westbound, were considered "express" and the stations east of Shaker Square were "local" and there were two different fares.  [i remember when the fare was local -25¢/express-35¢ and then it jump to 60/75¢ when I entered Shaker]
  
• If you boarded a train at Lee Road and exited at Coventry, that was considered a "local" fare.
  
• If you boarded a train at Lee Road and exited at 116, that was considered an "express" fare.
  
• Eastbound, you paid when you boarded so, if you boarded a train at any "express" stop you paid the express fair, regardless of where you were going to exit.  If you boarded at any station east of Shaker Square you paid the "local" fare.
  

Due to the Shaker Rapids layout, only the stations stations west of Shaker Square can be modified to provide a place to have turnstiles and where a toll booth clerk can watch both the eastbound and westbound platforms. 

 

Im not sure how the fare payment system can be modified to mimic the HL on the Shaker Rapid and be effective, so that RTA does not lose revenue.

 

Every other light rail system I have ever been on uses proof-of-payment, exactly like the Red Line. There's no reason that can't be implemented on the Blue/Green Lines. I doubt that there would be significant revenue loss from that.

 

What systems?  Are they NEW BUILD systems not a light rail system that is half express half street car.  I don't think P-O-P will work on the Shaker Rapid or RTA would have already implemented this on Shaker portion of the system.

 

The problem isn't POP, it can work on the healthline it can work on the blue and green line

The problem is the fare machines.

 

Think  about it. Every Healthline station has a fare machine to take payment. That required alot of stuff to do, power, data and the machines them selves.  Now take the cost of retrofitting both platforms at each blue and green line station with data, power and a fare machine just to make POP work on the route.

 

The solution is that each train would have a fare machine onboard and swipe and tap locations at every door on the train. It is much cheaper to fit fare machines to 20 trains than >60 machines for every station.

 

 

 

I agree.  If RTA would have installed the electricity at the Shaker Stations back in the 80s this wouldn't be a problem today.  Because RTA didn't properly execute the rehabilitation of the Shaker Lines, we have deficiencies today!

^Gotcha, sorry for being defensive.

 

I'm curious how RTA is going to implement contact-less fare cards into POP. Will they require everyone to get a time-stamped paper ticket for each ride?  Or will the roving enforcers have equipment that can tell if a rider's card tapped a fare on a platform or vehicle?  Every modern smart card system I've ridden recently has had traditional turnstile payment systems.  Anyone know how this works on the Baltimore light rail with the Charm Card?

 

UPDATE: looks like in SF, POP inspectors have equipment to read Clipper Cards and see their tap history.

 

Yeah, same with Baltimore. They use scanners that can read the history of your Charm Card/Smartrip