^ Is there any actual signs outside of Tower City anywhere which acknowledges that their is a rapid station inside? Is there anything that shows there is a mall inside?

 

I think on the wall in between Terminal Tower and the Renaissance Hotel there is lettering that says Ritz Carlton, the Avenue, and RTA Rapid etc. But it's definitely not really highlighted or clear

I've been back in Cleveland for four weeks now and have ridden RTA in some form almost every day. I've been gathering up quite a list of grievances. Here's my latest:

 

I know it's not a big deal, but why do you have to pay or swipe your farecard on the Red Line shuttle buses from UC-Cedar to Windermere? In DC, whenever a portion of the Metro was closed, WMATA would run free shuttle buses between the affected locations. It's a pretty big inconvenience to have to take the shuttle instead of the train. Even if the shuttle buses aren't free, they should at least go off the same proof of payment system that the train line that they're replacing uses. It's also very frustrating that the stretch of rail between UC and Windermere has been closed for this long and how does RTA not have a target date yet for it's re-opening?

 

I know Cleveland isn't DC, and I hate to sound like 'that guy' making potentially unfair comparisons, but there are so many little things RTA could be doing so much better (there are a lot of big things thy could be doing better too.)

I've been back in Cleveland for four weeks now and have ridden RTA in some form almost every day. I've been gathering up quite a list of grievances. Here's my latest:

 

I know it's not a big deal, but why do you have to pay or swipe your farecard on the Red Line shuttle buses from UC-Cedar to Windermere? In DC, whenever a portion of the Metro was closed, WMATA would run free shuttle buses between the affected locations. It's a pretty big inconvenience to have to take the shuttle instead of the train. Even if the shuttle buses aren't free, they should at least go off the same proof of payment system that the train line that they're replacing uses. It's also very frustrating that the stretch of rail between UC and Windermere has been closed for this long and how does RTA not have a target date yet for it's re-opening?

 

I know Cleveland isn't DC, and I hate to sound like 'that guy' making potentially unfair comparisons, but there are so many little things RTA could be doing so much better (there are a lot of big things thy could be doing better too.)

I think you are comparing cities and systems.  As a data point in NYC when they have train outages, there are no free transfers.  You transfer to a shuttle bus to continue your trip.

In looking at this and some of the TV news stories, yesterday, on RTA's big roll-out of this initiative, as good as it is (and it is good, because Ohio City is so transit friendly and people need to know about it), I'd like to see more promoting the available rail as well.

 

Let's see, the dependent clause in that second sentence of that article makes the statment, "rapid trains make the trip 100 times a day".

 

And, it's not just about point-to-point connectivity, it's about NEIGHBORHOOD connectivity. That stretch of W 25 north of the Market has a large and growing number of viable businesses and residential developments. Don't shut them out.

In looking at this and some of the TV news stories, yesterday, on RTA's big roll-out of this initiative, as good as it is (and it is good, because Ohio City is so transit friendly and people need to know about it), I'd like to see more promoting the available rail as well.

 

Let's see, the dependent clause in that second sentence of that article makes the statment, "rapid trains make the trip 100 times a day".

 

And, it's not just about point-to-point connectivity, it's about NEIGHBORHOOD connectivity. That stretch of W 25 north of the Market has a large and growing number of viable businesses and residential developments. Don't shut them out.

 

Yes, JetDoG, I see the 100 Rapid trains listed on the website, but the emphasis though is clearly the buses, esp visually with the signage in the bus stops.  Again, I think this is a very positive and very good RTA initiative.  I'm just saying, why can't signage ALSO point out the Rapid too, such as the "Red Line, 1 block" language I noted, which other cities use?  The beauty of Ohio City is the variety, extent and frequency of its transit options, I'd just rather not favor one over the other; promote them all ... Ohio City, Inc., itself, touts both the Rapid and buses in their literature and their street maps at corners does note the Ohio City Rapid station. 

I like the idea of a sign at Market Square Park saying "Rapid train station, 1 block east on Lorain" or maybe one outside the convention center saying "Train to airport at Tower City Center, Public Square." Could do something like at Mayfield and Euclid too, after the new Mayfield station opens.

 

BTW, here is something All Aboard Ohio placed at the Cleveland Amtrak station. Station personnel often get many questions from arriving passengers wondering how to get to Akron or to the Greyhound station or to Case Western Reserve University, etc. So we set up this kiosk with maps and transit timetables.....

 

I agree with some of the points about RTA visibility.

 

RTA has always come across as an alternative to driving rather than being an engrained into everyday life of living in the city.

 

Example why isn't our transit system, particularly rail, better supported in google maps.  It should look like NYC, Chicago, Philly, DC.

RTA should also reach out to businesses especially in Downtown, Ohio City, Tremont, Asian Village, Shaker Square, University Circle, Central, & Edgewater so that everytime you do a search you see the nearest train station and work with businesses to show rail directions on their websites.  That would an incredible start.

I agree with some of the points about RTA visibility.

 

RTA has always come across as an alternative to driving rather than being an engrained into everyday life of living in the city.

 

Example why isn't our transit system, particularly rail, better supported in google maps.  It should look like NYC, Chicago, Philly, DC.

RTA should also reach out to businesses especially in Downtown, Ohio City, Tremont, Asian Village, Shaker Square, University Circle, Central, & Edgewater so that everytime you do a search you see the nearest train station and work with businesses to show rail directions on their websites.  That would an incredible start.

 

 

What do you mean about Google Maps? Cleveland isn't any different than NYC, DC, Philly on there

I agree with some of the points about RTA visibility.

 

RTA has always come across as an alternative to driving rather than being an engrained into everyday life of living in the city.

 

Example why isn't our transit system, particularly rail, better supported in google maps.  It should look like NYC, Chicago, Philly, DC.

RTA should also reach out to businesses especially in Downtown, Ohio City, Tremont, Asian Village, Shaker Square, University Circle, Central, & Edgewater so that everytime you do a search you see the nearest train station and work with businesses to show rail directions on their websites.  That would an incredible start.

 

 

What do you mean about Google Maps? Cleveland isn't any different than NYC, DC, Philly on there

 

Click on Google maps, put in any of the above cities.  Then click "transit".    You will see the train stations and train lines displayed in color. 

 

In chicago, you'll even see commuter rail displayed.  I was wrong about Philly, they are as bad as us.

Got it. That's weird that they wouldn't include the colors on the lines. But that's the only difference. There are still icons for all bus and rail stops and it includes transit options when you put in for directions

^ All is see is the Red Line, in an extremely ugly/hard to see color. The Green and Blue lines arent shown.

From what I've gathered, Google maps only displays the heavy or commuter rail lines when you click on "transit." I would guess that's why only the Red Line is shown in Cleveland, and for some cities which have light rail but no heavy, the "transit" button isn't even shown.

From what I've gathered, Google maps only displays the heavy or commuter rail lines when you click on "transit." I would guess that's why only the Red Line is shown in Cleveland, and for some cities which have light rail but no heavy, the "transit" button isn't even shown.

 

That's what I originally thought too. Baltimore, for example, only had the Metro Subway shown and not the Light Rail. But the Green Line is shown in Boston, and the T is shown in Pittsburgh. So, I'm not sure that there's an exact rhyme or reason.

From what I've gathered, Google maps only displays the heavy or commuter rail lines when you click on "transit." I would guess that's why only the Red Line is shown in Cleveland, and for some cities which have light rail but no heavy, the "transit" button isn't even shown.

 

That's what I originally thought too. Baltimore, for example, only had the Metro Subway shown and not the Light Rail. But the Green Line is shown in Boston, and the T is shown in Pittsburgh. So, I'm not sure that there's an exact rhyme or reason.

 

San Diego, Portland, Los Angeles & Dallas Light rail lines show.

Sorry for the late post. I am catching up tonight after a break. Earlier, it was stated: "I wonder how much he (Joe Calabrese) actually gets out of his office to see how things are going on the front lines."

 

I do not have to "wonder," I know. The answer is: He gets out A LOT. Some examples:

 

#1: Joe heard that riders were unhappy about something (I forgot the issue) on a bus that left the Euclid Transit Center at around 7 a.m. Joe, who lives in Westlake, showed up at 7 am one day at the Euclid Transit Center and rode the bus downtown to see first-hand what the complaints were about.

 

#2: When an employee at the Hayden garage made a suggestion for an improvement in the bus mechanics area, Joe did not just ask for a written explanation -- he went there and saw first-hand how the suggestion worked. But then, that's what you get when you hire a GM who can also operate a bus.

 

#3: When Joe first came to Cleveland, he often rode the rails before, during and after a special event, such as a Browns game or the July 4th fireworks. He took lengthy notes, and met with staff the next day to review ways that RTA could better handle these major events. Things have improved dramatically since those days. Yes, there are complaints about certain topics on certain days, but the "process" has improved immensely.

 

#4: On 9-11, as the city was being evacuated, Joe was on the scene at Tower City, using a bullhorn to help direct people to which bus to board for which area.

 

I could give other examples, but I have proven my point. Joe is a hands-on manager, and his results speak for themselves.

There was a discussion up thread about the absence of RTA signs around the TowerCity area providing visitors more info as to the locations of trains in the city. I agree that TC is a mystery to most visitors who are not aware of the trains/stores/movie theaters that are a short walk away. I always thought there should be outdoor mall directory signs showing stores and movie times that would be placed around the CBD.  So PositivelyCleveland has hired www.appliedwayfinding.com recently to devise a master plan for better wayfinding around the city.

 

An article in Crains addresses the RTA situation.

 

On a typical workday, more than 200 RTA trains stop at Tower City, where about 30,000 people step on and off the Red, Blue, Green and Waterfront lines. This is Cleveland's main transit station.

The trains under the Terminal Tower can take visitors and tourists to airports, museums, a stadium, a university, dozens of communities and lots more. But that's only if visitors and tourists know there are trains inside the building.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20140824/BLOGS08/308249996/cleveland-is-finally-connecting-the-dots

 

Also from PositivelyCleveland about the company.

http://www.thisiscleveland.com/articles/view/positively-cleveland-presents-wayfinding-connectivity-plans/732/

 

Wow, good for Crains; article well stated. Glad some of the City's top brass is on this.  Of course, RTA is... where on this?. <--- leading from behind, that's where -- or in this case, not leading at all.

 

As we do become more of a destination city, we have to think more of this town as actually having tourists... and we need to stop being inhospitable toward them.

This is the first I've heard about this but after doing a little research I found this blog article from earlier in the year with some concepts.

 

http://www.gcbl.org/blog/2014/04/legible-london-firm-reveals-clevelands-secrets

 

There was a discussion up thread about the absence of RTA signs around the TowerCity area providing visitors more info as to the locations of trains in the city. I agree that TC is a mystery to most visitors who are not aware of the trains/stores/movie theaters that are a short walk away. I always thought there should be outdoor mall directory signs showing stores and movie times that would be placed around the CBD.  So PositivelyCleveland has hired www.appliedwayfinding.com recently to devise a master plan for better wayfinding around the city.

 

An article in Crains addresses the RTA situation.

 

On a typical workday, more than 200 RTA trains stop at Tower City, where about 30,000 people step on and off the Red, Blue, Green and Waterfront lines. This is Cleveland's main transit station.

The trains under the Terminal Tower can take visitors and tourists to airports, museums, a stadium, a university, dozens of communities and lots more. But that's only if visitors and tourists know there are trains inside the building.

http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20140824/BLOGS08/308249996/cleveland-is-finally-connecting-the-dots

 

Also from PositivelyCleveland about the company.

http://www.thisiscleveland.com/articles/view/positively-cleveland-presents-wayfinding-connectivity-plans/732/

 

 

I agree I wonder how hard it would be to coordinate this.

 

The City

Neighborhoods, block associations

The DCDs

RTA

 

This could be a win-win for residents and tourist alike.

Not sure if this should be in the Public Square forum or this one.

 

The Public Square debate: RTA's Joe Calabrese is "cautiously optimistic," but seeks info about the impact of a redesign on bus transit

 

http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2014/08/the_public_square_debate_rtas.html#incart_m-rpt-1

 

I dont know how I feel about this... I am not a fan of the way Calabrese responded to most of the questions.  :|

 

And the commenters are not happy ...  :-P

I think RTA should update its explanation of the shutdown of Red Line service east of Cedar-University. The page explaining the shutdown on RTA's website is titled "July Red Line construction," and it is now almost September. It also states that the work requiring the shutdown is taking longer than expected, but it seems to me a decision was made to do the project in a different way, which has resulted in a much-longer-than-expected shutdown. I could see a delay of a week or two if work was merely taking longer than expected, but the shutdown is now into its third month with not even any slight hint of when service may be restored.

I think RTA should update its explanation of the shutdown of Red Line service east of Cedar-University. The page explaining the shutdown on RTA's website is titled "July Red Line construction," and it is now almost September. It also states that the work requiring the shutdown is taking longer than expected, but it seems to me a decision was made to do the project in a different way, which has resulted in a much-longer-than-expected shutdown. I could see a delay of a week or two if work was merely taking longer than expected, but the shutdown is now into its third month with not even any slight hint of when service may be restored.

 

I agree... RTA is being completely irresponsible in not communicating why this shutdown is taking so long or updating what the current status is, not to mention how much longer commuters are going to have to wait for the reopening.  Situations like this leave no doubt as to why the public just doesn't trust RTA, esp the current management.

Just for completeness sake full Red Line service is restored. Also RTA's commuter alerts are really quite handy!

 

http://commuteralerts.riderta.com/commuteralerts/

Alison Grant ‏@alisonkgrant 

A 20 min power outage temporarily stranded passengers on @GCRTA Red Line this morn. No word fr RTA yet on cause.

 

Alison Grant ‏@alisonkgrant 

Some passengers taken off an @gcrta Red Line this morning because of power outage are still waiting for transport.

 

Greater Cleve RTA ‏@GCRTA  1m

@alisonkgrant Shuttles have been dispatched. It may take a few minutes to get operators&coaches together & on the road. Thx for ur patience.

 

This reminds me of GCRTA's outdated power system. The electrical power system (delivered by overhead wires on catenaries) on the Red Line is based on an outdated design which was already on its way out in the 1950s when most of the Red Line was built. The system, a direct-fixation catenary, is susceptible to temperature fluctuations, because the wires tend to sag in high temperatures or become taut in cold temperatures. When the weather is hot enough, the wires sag low enough that they become entangled in the train's wire-contact device (a pantograph) and cause serious damage and service disruptions. When the weather is cold enough, the wires become too tight and snap, as is what happened a number of times last winter. And, simply from the passage of time and use, direct-fixation wires will sag and need to be tightened manually at different locations through the system.

 

GCRTA's power-delivery system is labor-intensive and is one of the reasons why GCRTA's rail system's operating costs are higher than newer, comparably sized rail systems in other cities. This causes GCRTA to unnecessarily devote 40% of its operating budget to the rail system and discourages GCRTA from considering otherwise cost-effective expansions the rail system. This can be addressed by replacing the direct-fixation catenary wires with constant-tension catenary wires.

KJP, what kind of dollar figure are we talking to replace the power system? Is that something that could be eligible for help from the feds?

KJP, what kind of dollar figure are we talking to replace the power system? Is that something that could be eligible for help from the feds?

 

Absolutely. FTA offers State of Good Repair (formerly Rail Modernization) grants. These are typically offered on a 50/50 matching basis. But this would be a VERY expensive project if it was done all at once -- likely in the hundreds of millions of dollars. So I would pursue it in smaller segments starting with the busiest -- from Tower City to East 55th. It might take decades to replace the whole thing, but I think it would be worth it.

BTW, electrical power has been restored to all rail lines and have returned to regular operation about an hour ago.

Thank you KJP for that fascinating insight into the power structure of the Red Line.  When you say "expensive" to update / replace the power system all at once, are we talking tens of millions, like the equivalent of a new rail station's cost, or talking hundreds of millions like the cost of the Healthline? 

 

Also, would it be cost effective to plan to replace the power system in conjunction with purchasing new rail cars for the system and could this save money?  Since the cars have just been refreshed I'm sure replacement is 10-20 years away, but that too will be massively expensive and financial planning for this should begin now and i dunno, maybe there's cost savings to be had replacing both at once.

Thank you KJP for that fascinating insight into the power structure of the Red Line.  When you say "expensive" to update / replace the power system all at once, are we talking tens of millions, like the equivalent of a new rail station's cost, or talking hundreds of millions like the cost of the Healthline? 

 

The answer is not far away. Not far away at all. All you have to do is look. Look not far.....

 

 

Also, would it be cost effective to plan to replace the power system in conjunction with purchasing new rail cars for the system and could this save money?  Since the cars have just been refreshed I'm sure replacement is 10-20 years away, but that too will be massively expensive and financial planning for this should begin now and i dunno, maybe there's cost savings to be had replacing both at once.

 

GCRTA recognizes it needs to replace the rail car fleet and has a ballpark estimate of $240 million. That's going to be a huge lift that requires GCRTA to start planning and budgeting now for it. GCRTA is not sold on the need for replacing the overhead wires and supports (catenaries) which date from the 1920s-1950s. A more modern catenary system would save GCRTA millions of dollars per year in operating costs. GCRTA also recognizes it has some infrastructure issues at Tower City Center.

 

It is quite possible that federal funding for transportation may be eliminated if not significantly curtailed and passed on to the states. That may mean no transit money for Ohio's urban areas considering ODOT's anti-transit policies, especially toward urban areas which ODOT believes can and should support their own transit systems. So it may be time to consider taking care of ourselves by adding a new local revenue stream that would have to be tied to an overriding service goal, such as a transit system that reaches 90 percent of jobs in Greater Cleveland within a 90-minute transit trip (only 27% of jobs are currently within a 90-minute transit trip, according to the Brookings Institute). So a more modern rail system means a more cost-effective rail system, which also frees up more operating funds for expansion.

^Obviously the constant-tension catenary system discussed is very expensive to replace the older systems similar to RTA's.  Out east, Philadelphia's regional rail has a similar (and older) system for almost its entire 200-mile regional rail network... Amtrak's NEC uses Acela trains -- our (so-called) bullet/answer to Japan and Europe (and now China).  And yet, based on recent travels in the corridor, I don't think Amtrak has replaced very much of its old catenary (much of it contemporary with Philadelphia's) with the constant-tension technology.  Metra Electric's commuter rail in Chicago uses an overhead power system that also appears very similar to the Red Line's, but to my knowledge it hasn't been updated either.  So maybe Cleveland isn't so much out of step with the nation which, obviously, tends to lag behind most of the industrialized world on passenger train and transit issues.

BTW, a cost estimate for replacing catenary systems is $2 million to $3 million per mile. Each substation may be have to replaced as well at a cost of about $3 million each. I can't remember how many substations there are but I suspect its about 15-20.

BTW, a cost estimate for replacing catenary systems is $2 million to $3 million per mile. Each substation may be have to replaced as well at a cost of about $1 million each. I can't remember how many substations there are but I suspect its about 15-20.

So since the red line system is about 19 miles it would cost $57 million to replace the catenary systems for the red line alone?

So since the red line system is about 19 miles it would cost $57 million to replace the catenary systems for the red line alone?

 

Something more like this.....

 

RED LINE

19 route miles x 2 tracks x $3 million = $114 million subtotal

+ 3 track-miles of yard/siding tracks x $3 million = $9 million subtotal (includes reduced yard size at Central Rail/E55th)

+ $3 million per substation x 10 substations = $30 million subtotal

= $153 million total estimated Red Line

 

Or thereabouts. The Waterfront Line was built with a modern constant-tension catenary system but, for some reason, the Blue/Green lines were not when they were rebuilt in 1980. So here's the Shaker lines:

 

10.3 route miles x 2 tracks x $3 million = $61.8 million subtotal

+ 1.167 track-miles of yard/siding tracks x $3 million = $3.5 million

+ $3 million per substation x 4 substations = $12 million subtotal

= $77.3 million total estimated Shaker Lines

 

$230.3 million for all lines

So since the red line system is about 19 miles it would cost $57 million to replace the catenary systems for the red line alone?

 

Something more like this.....

 

RED LINE

19 route miles x 2 tracks x $3 million = $114 million subtotal

+ 3 track-miles of yard/siding tracks x $3 million = $9 million subtotal (includes reduced yard size at Central Rail/E55th)

+ $3 million per substation x 10 substations = $30 million subtotal

= $153 million total estimated Red Line

 

Or thereabouts. The Waterfront Line was built with a modern constant-tension catenary system but, for some reason, the Blue/Green lines were not when they were rebuilt in 1980. So here's the Shaker lines:

 

10.3 route miles x 2 tracks x $3 million = $61.8 million subtotal

+ 1.167 track-miles of yard/siding tracks x $3 million = $3.5 million

+ $3 million per substation x 4 substations = $12 million subtotal

= $77.3 million total estimated Shaker Lines

 

$230.3 million for all lines

 

KJP are you sure about the highlighted?

 

The Shaker track bed, tracks, rails, shelters, stairs, crossings, catenary and catenary poles were all replaced.

 

Or are you saying the source/power system that provides the electricity was not upgraded?

Or are you saying the source/power system that provides the electricity was not upgraded?

 

That's correct. They kept the 600-volt DC system from before which is inefficient and more expensive than modern LRT systems which use no less than 750v and most are 1200v. The reason is they would have had to replace the Red Line's electrical system as well.

 

And while GCRTA replaced the Shaker lines' support poles and overhead wires in 1980, I'm pretty sure they didn't upgrade it from direct-fixation catenary to a constant-tension wire. You would see a system of pulleys and weights every so often to keep the wires from sagging in high heat, and will allow them to tighten in cold temperatures.

 

So the point is, if the system is upgraded from 600v to 1200v coincident with the replacement of the direct-fixation catenaries, the whole thing would have to be done at the same time (all 39 route miles) -- unless we forced transfers someplace like East 55th until the next section can be replaced. So it's probably not likely unless we build a duplicate infrastructure and then shut down the whole system for an extended period while the wires are replaced and the system is transferred over to the higher voltage system.

 

To me the higher priority is to replace the direct-fixation catenaries. That at least can be done in sections as funds are available.

 

Something more like this.....

 

 

Or thereabouts. The Waterfront Line was built with a modern constant-tension catenary system but, for some reason, the Blue/Green lines were not when they were rebuilt in 1980. So here's the Shaker lines:

 

10.3 route miles x 2 tracks x $3 million = $61.8 million subtotal

+ 1.167 track-miles of yard/siding tracks x $3 million = $3.5 million

+ $3 million per substation x 4 substations = $12 million subtotal

= $77.3 million total estimated Shaker Lines

 

$230.3 million for all lines

 

I always wondered why RTA rebuilt the Shaker Lines with this old-style catenary when clearly the constant tension technology was the state of the art even at that time (early 80s).  Just more evidence that the leadership of RTA was incompetent and we need more public involvement, interest and oversight when it comes to our local transit operation and decision-making.

 

As for power, I'm pretty sure the NYC subway system is 600 volts as is, I believe, the Boston T -- both older systems like RTA.  I think though that the Boston T's Blue Line upgraded its catenary to constant tension, which is important, because the extended, over-head wire portion, from Maverick to Wonderland, is contemporary with RTA's 1950s-built Red Line.  The T's Blue Line, like RTA's Red Line, may be the only heavy rail transit lines operating with overhead wires in the United States.  CTA's Skokie Swift dropped from that club when they switched power to 3rd rail.

As for power, I'm pretty sure the NYC subway system is 600 volts as is, I believe, the Boston T -- both older systems like RTA.  I think though that the Boston T's Blue Line upgraded its catenary to constant tension, which is important, because the extended, over-head wire portion, from Maverick to Wonderland, is contemporary with RTA's 1950s-built Red Line.  The T's Blue Line, like RTA's Red Line, may be the only heavy rail transit lines operating with overhead wires in the United States.  CTA's Skokie Swift dropped from that club when they switched power to 3rd rail.

 

Does being underground improve the reliability?  I would think it would.

As for power, I'm pretty sure the NYC subway system is 600 volts as is, I believe, the Boston T -- both older systems like RTA.  I think though that the Boston T's Blue Line upgraded its catenary to constant tension, which is important, because the extended, over-head wire portion, from Maverick to Wonderland, is contemporary with RTA's 1950s-built Red Line.  The T's Blue Line, like RTA's Red Line, may be the only heavy rail transit lines operating with overhead wires in the United States.  CTA's Skokie Swift dropped from that club when they switched power to 3rd rail.

 

Does being underground improve the reliability?  I would think it would.

 

I'm not an electrical engineer so I can't say... I am aware there are differences in 3rd rail delivery vs. catenary, notably I've read that catenary allows for higher train free running speeds but, again, I couldn't tell you why.  Maybe someone with knowledge of this can weigh in.

^ really? The Red Line always appears to be much slower. Maybe its just the slow acceleration, which may be real, or may just be due to being such a short train.

^I never realized the Red Line as slower; I always thought those cars had considerable giddyap!  It's hard though to experience this nowadays with all the friggin' slow-zones where cars  rarely achieve speed... Anyway, I was actually I was talking about top speeds of trains.  IIRC, 3rd rail trains' top speed generally is limited to about 100 MPH (it may have to do with the issue of electrical "arcing" w/r to 3rd rail; not sure) where, as we know, catenary-based systems such as Acela, the Bullet trains of Japan, TGV of France, etc., can achieve from 150 to over 357 MPH (the latter being the ground speed record).

^I never realized the Red Line as slower; I always thought those cars had considerable giddyap!  It's hard though to experience this nowadays with all the friggin' slow-zones where cars  rarely achieve speed... Anyway, I was actually I was talking about top speeds of trains.  IIRC, 3rd rail trains' top speed generally is limited to about 100 MPH (it may have to do with the issue of electrical "arcing" w/r to 3rd rail; not sure) where, as we know, catenary-based systems such as Acela, the Bullet trains of Japan, TGV of France, etc., can achieve from 150 to over 357 MPH (the latter being the ground speed record).

 

Interesting, although nothing that RTA really needs to be concerned about. Aren't the top speeds around 40 to 50mph? Now it really would be rapid transit if RTA could figure out a way for the Red Line to travel 150+ mph!!!  :-D

^I actually thought Red Line trains could hit 60-65 MPH.  It used to be on the Airport stretch next to I-71 they could match auto speeds.  But that line has a slow zone now (at least the last, recent, time I was on it) so the trains are no match for autos at the moment.

Can some one explain the reasoning behind these "slow zones"? Riding the Red Line has been maddening as it feels like it just crawls for most of the trip. There are a few stretches where it reaches decent speed, but those are few and far between. I'd understand if there were slow downs on sections of track with sharp curves or something, but that's not the case.

 

Edit: Come to think of it, I'd say the same is true for the Green/Blue Lines as well.

 

I haven't noticed any slow zones on the east side portion yet (when it's actually running!). It does sometimes have a long wait at 55th but most of the time the ride is decently fast.

 

I thought the slow zone was removed with the S-Curve project?

I haven't noticed any slow zones on the east side portion yet (when it's actually running!). It does sometimes have a long wait at 55th but most of the time the ride is decently fast.

 

I thought the slow zone was removed with the S-Curve project?

 

The entire portion of the east side Red Line seems like a slow zone. As well as the Green/Blue Lines from TC to E. 79th. The west side slow zones seem to be from TC to W 117th, and then a significant portion after West Park.

Can some one explain the reasoning behind these "slow zones"? Riding the Red Line has been maddening as it feels like it just crawls for most of the trip. There are a few stretches where it reaches decent speed, but those are few and far between. I'd understand if there were slow downs on sections of track with sharp curves or something, but that's not the case.

 

Edit: Come to think of it, I'd say the same is true for the Green/Blue Lines as well.

 

 

Slow zones are usually established when track is warped and/or unstable at normal speeds.  Often because the RR ties (or "sleepers") holding them in place are worn and need replacement.  In recent years RTA has been replacing the old wooden ties with concrete ones which have longer life spans. 

I may be mistaken, but a section of track that GCRTA is working on during off-peak or off-service hours may have a coded track circuit that activates the trains' cab signals and forces the trains to operate slowly through a work zone. I'm sure we've all driven through roadway work zones where there is a temporary speed restriction, lane restriction, orange barrels, etc. but no one is working at the time you're traveling through there. Sometimes there may not be track work or track-side work occurring at the time you're passing through on a train, but the coded track circuit remains in place. If you follow GCRTA on Twitter, you will see lots of trackwork occurring and some tracks are taken out of service during the middle of the day such for minor project like track resurfacing or a non-GCRTA project like a new/rebuilt bridge (such as near West 65th). Or in the case of the west-side Red Line this past weekend, the Red Line was shut down on Saturday and Sunday for major work including the replacement of switches just west of the Ohio City station. And there may be a similar track replacement project near the Brookpark station as well.

 

EDIT: here's a couple of examples.....

 

Greater Cleve RTA ‏@GCRTA  1h

Tues 9/9-Thurs 9/11 8p-3a, Red Line btwn E 55 & E 120, single tracking for maintenance could cause delays.

 

Greater Cleve RTA ‏@GCRTA  3h

Sun 9/7-Thurs 9/11, 7p-3a, Blue Line btwn Drexmore & Van Aken-Warrensville, single tracking for maintenance could cause delays.

I may be mistaken, but a section of track that GCRTA is working on during off-peak or off-service hours may have a coded track circuit that activates the trains' cab signals and forces the trains to operate slowly through a work zone. I'm sure we've all driven through roadway work zones where there is a temporary speed restriction, lane restriction, orange barrels, etc. but no one is working at the time you're traveling through there. Sometimes there may not be track work or track-side work occurring at the time you're passing through on a train, but the coded track circuit remains in place. If you follow GCRTA on Twitter, you will see lots of trackwork occurring and some tracks are taken out of service during the middle of the day such for minor project like track resurfacing or a non-GCRTA project like a new/rebuilt bridge (such as near West 65th). Or in the case of the west-side Red Line this past weekend, the Red Line was shut down on Saturday and Sunday for major work including the replacement of switches just west of the Ohio City station. And there may be a similar track replacement project near the Brookpark station as well.

 

EDIT: here's a couple of examples.....

 

Greater Cleve RTA ‏@GCRTA  1h

Tues 9/9-Thurs 9/11 8p-3a, Red Line btwn E 55 & E 120, single tracking for maintenance could cause delays.

 

Greater Cleve RTA ‏@GCRTA  3h

Sun 9/7-Thurs 9/11, 7p-3a, Blue Line btwn Drexmore & Van Aken-Warrensville, single tracking for maintenance could cause delays.

 

Yeah, the automated signal system is really what causes "slow zones." It's especially noticeable near construction of the new Little Italy-University Circle station, to protect construction workers. In fact, if the driver disobeys, you can sometimes hear the buzzer that alerts them to overspeeding warnings.

 

Also understand that the Red Line was probably built for around a 50-100 year design life. It's common engineering practice  (so are Interstate bridges, in many cases). This means that at this point, the project requires major maintenance or replacement. Usually, maintenance wins out, like RTA is doing now. Sometimes, replacement does, like the old innerbelt bridge. It depends, the heavy rail system in Cleveland has solid bones, and thus maintenance can keep it running. The innerbelt bridge was an example of replacement because it had a noted design deficiency. The Red Line is built well, it's just time for maintenance.

 

In fact, many mid-century rail systems are reaching this phase, while older systems are on their second or third (or fourth) major maintenance cycles.

 

 

 

Yeah, the automated signal system is really what causes "slow zones." It's especially noticeable near construction of the new Little Italy-University Circle station, to protect construction workers. In fact, if the driver disobeys, you can sometimes hear the buzzer that alerts them to overspeeding warnings.

 

To be more specific, it's how the automatic signal system is "programmed" along certain sections of track. There are different ways of doing that depending on the type of cab signal/automatic train stop system provided: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab_signalling

 

In fact, many mid-century rail systems are reaching this phase, while older systems are on their second or third (or fourth) major maintenance cycles.

 

The Red Line was built in two eras: the first was in the late-1920s when much of its infrastructure (roadbed, bridges, some stations, some catenary poles, some ballast and ties) was built; the rest was built 1953-68 when the track was laid, the trains built, the stations completed, more bridges added as track was extended farther out, especially on the west side, etc). In fact, here are some great pictures showing how old some of the Red Line's infrastructure really is....

 

Below Stokes Blvd, looking east in 1930. Ties were being set but rails wouldn't follow for another 25 years. The Red Line was originally envisioned as a fast route for interurbans from outlying cities like Ashtabula, Painesville, Chardon, Middlefield, etc to come into the city on a fast, private right-of-way rather than use existing, slow, crowded streetcar tracks. But by the early 1930s, most of the poorly capitalized interurbans succumbed to the Great Depression and government-funded paved roads:

 

Looking east in 1930 from atop the Salvation Army warehouse (soon-to-be CWRU's Think[box]) with closest bridge for Adelbert. The two-track rights of way from left are -- the electrified Cleveland Union Terminal right of way for intercity passenger trains (abandoned in 1970s), the New York Central Belt Line (now CSX Cleveland Terminal Subdivision), the Nickel Plate Road (now NS Lake Division) and finally the unfinished rapid transit line for interurbans to quickly enter/exit crowded Cleveland:

 

Station at Cedar Glen (site of current UC-Cedar station), still sitting unfinished in the 1940s. Photos like these were shared with the public and the newspapers to encourage the new, municipally owned Cleveland Transit System to finish the rapid transit line after the war was over. Since the interurbans were gone, the rapid transit line in the 1940s was seen as a way of getting suburban streetcars into the city quickly. But at the rate streetcars lines were being dismantled, the decision was made to build the Rapid as a stand-alone, heavy-rail line: