Development is everywhere. I agree more things can be done, but there are a lot of projects on the horizon.

MissinOhio I agree with your overall point, although I'm not sure about promoting our rail system as a feature since they're fairly common these days in a city this size.  If we didn't have one, that would be a story.  Thankfully we still do!

 

Except for Columbus, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, Detroit, Milwaukee, Kansas City, Louisville, Nashville, San Antonio, Las Vegas, etc.

^At least three four of those cities have rail lines under construction or under development (i.e., with devoted funding and advanced planning). We can compare the reach and quality of rail systems, but safe to say that having rail isn't much of a distinguishing feature anymore.

^At least three four of those cities have rail lines under construction or under development (i.e., with devoted funding and advanced planning). We can compare the reach and quality of rail systems, but safe to say that having rail isn't much of a distinguishing feature anymore.

 

Right, but I was intentionally not counting short streetcar systems. And if we leave our rail system the way it is without expanding it, then yes, we will likely start getting passed up. Kind of funny that as all these cities are building rail, we're having conversations in Cleveland about rumors of shutting part of ours down or paving over rail lines for BRT...

Cincinnati and Detroit?  Their trains aren't rolling yet but will be soon.  And that's kind of what I'm getting at, since those shiny new rail projects are happening nearby while we're limping along with obsolete stock and no plans for growth.  I'm not saying we should be ashamed of what we have-- at all-- I just don't think it's among the best pro-Cleveland angles for our marketing.  If there was serious talk of expanding one of the lines, that might be worth making some noise about.  But instead, the end of the blue line is being blocked off.

MissinOhio I agree with your overall point, although I'm not sure about promoting our rail system as a feature since they're fairly common these days in a city this size.  If we didn't have one, that would be a story.  Thankfully we still do!

 

Wikipedia lists 15 US cities with heavy rail systems, and 33 with light rail. I don't know if "fairly common" is the proper term.

Cincinnati and Detroit?  Their trains aren't rolling yet but will be soon.  And that's kind of what I'm getting at, since those shiny new rail projects are happening nearby while we're limping along with obsolete stock and no plans for growth.  I'm not saying we should be ashamed of what we have-- at all-- I just don't think it's among the best pro-Cleveland angles for our marketing.  If there was serious talk of expanding one of the lines, that might be worth making some noise about.  But instead, the end of the blue line is being blocked off.

 

Sorry but a 3.6 mile streetcar loop in Cincinnati and a 3.3 mile streetcar line in Detroit don't compare with the 19 miles of heavy rail and 15.3 miles of light rail in Cleveland.

^Sadly, judging from ridership, Cleveland area residents don't think RTA's rail system compares with the other heavy and light rail systems around the country. But I agree with you. These new streetcar systems may someday be expanded to the point that they have good ridership, but right now they seem poised to move pretty small numbers.

MissinOhio I agree with your overall point, although I'm not sure about promoting our rail system as a feature since they're fairly common these days in a city this size.  If we didn't have one, that would be a story.  Thankfully we still do!

 

Wikipedia lists 15 US cities with heavy rail systems, and 33 with light rail. I don't know if "fairly common" is the proper term.

 

Well, maybe RTA should be promoting its rail system more.  That might even help to generate interest in new funding!       

^Sadly, judging from ridership, Cleveland area residents don't think RTA's rail system compares with the other heavy and light rail systems around the country. But I agree with you. These new streetcar systems may someday be expanded to the point that they have good ridership, but right now they seem poised to move pretty small numbers.

That's a matter of priorities and promotion.  The GCRTA's rail systems suffer from the "one size fits all" mentality that is endemic in the system as a whole.  Plus it's not a priority so little if anything has changed much, besides station rebuilds dictated by ADA.

Cincinnati and Detroit?  Their trains aren't rolling yet but will be soon.  And that's kind of what I'm getting at, since those shiny new rail projects are happening nearby while we're limping along with obsolete stock and no plans for growth.  I'm not saying we should be ashamed of what we have-- at all-- I just don't think it's among the best pro-Cleveland angles for our marketing.  If there was serious talk of expanding one of the lines, that might be worth making some noise about.  But instead, the end of the blue line is being blocked off.

 

Actually, I do think the Rapid is still a major selling point for Cleveland.  For US cities of our size, density and (sadly) Rust Belt/no-growth status, such a system as ours is a rarity (other than Pittsburgh, St. Louis and, now, Minneapolis, no other Midwest/Great Lakes city has anything close to what Cleveland has).  And even the new(er) systems in Sun Belt/growth cities like Charlotte, Miami, Norfolk, VA, Houston and Phoenix (that latter 2 being MUCH larger than Greater Cleveland) are much to write home about (at least Miami's is heavy rail and they do have commuter rail which is expanding).  Cleveland's airport-to-downtown ((airport) indoor-to-indoor/underground downtown office/hotel/retail connection) is still a gem and, despite what someone posted earlier, was absolutely a selling point to both the DNC and RNC, and part of the reason the RNC chose Cleveland for it's 2016 convention, esp following transit/logistical nightmares in the last RNC in Tampa (oh yeah, add Tampa-St. Pete to the list of major metros with no rapid transit at all). 

 

As for expansion of RTA's rail system; yes, it's been frustrating.  But at least, per KJP's reporting, there's at least a tiny sliver hope that all or part of the Red Line's proposed extension to Euclid can be built.

So KJP, I have a question.  Your article on Cleveland's RTA shutdown has received some attention over on SSC (a pretty dead forum, but pretty interesting nonetheless) especially Milwaukee's streetcar thread: Don't know if I should post links to other forums, so I will refrain from doing so.

 

I haven't had time to sit down and read the article like I would like to, but are we essentially looking at Cleveland shutting down all of the lines RTA serves outside of the red line?  If so, this is truly sad.  Cleveland is the reason I fell in love with cities and urban developments.  I remember being little, my aunt worked in 55 Public Square, and I would look down on Public Square, and seeing the area teem with life, I knew then that cities is where I wanted to be.  Now this is a site for Cleveland and Ohio boosters, but let's be honest, Cleveland's development is not extremely impressive these days when looking at other cities.  Downtown still has a ways to go, and other areas of the city are left to rot and decay.  I am quickly giving up on Cleveland, and it's a shame, but I can't wait for the city to figure out how it will make itself more livable, fight the crime, and take advantage of its assets that so many other cities could only dream of.  Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and even Detroit are working on developments that are far more impressive than what is happening in Cleveland, and they are actually under construction. That believe it when I see mentality is alive and well in Cleveland.  I don't want to sound like a .com poster, I am still a huge booster of Cleveland, but I am really getting tired of the city not taking the steps necessary to stop its fast decline.

 

Cleveland's light/heavy rail was something that the city could proudly promote, especially over other cities that lacked rail lines (only one in Ohio).  To know that it could possibly be reduced to one main line is so disappointing.  It seems like other cities are putting smart development forward, while Cleveland takes steps back.  The city doesn't seem in touch with what the younger crowds want.  Even Sunbelt cities are thinking smarter than Cleveland these days.  So KJP, do you see this rail shutdown as most likely happening?

 

Hi M.O., I responded to your question here:

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,30302.msg785138.html#msg785138

 

As for expansion of RTA's rail system; yes, it's been frustrating.  But at least, per KJP's reporting, there's at least a tiny sliver hope that all or part of the Red Line's proposed extension to Euclid can be built.

 

Sorry, I didn't mean to give you that hope. I don't see it happening. Not under the RTA's current "shrink to survive" policy.

^Sadly, judging from ridership, Cleveland area residents don't think RTA's rail system compares with the other heavy and light rail systems around the country. But I agree with you. These new streetcar systems may someday be expanded to the point that they have good ridership, but right now they seem poised to move pretty small numbers.

[/quote

 

It has more to do with where people live today in the Cleveland region.  When the city held many more people the Rapid had significant use.  Until the early '80s, within a few years of RTA's creation, the bottom fell out on ridership and it's been stagnant or up and down since then. 

 

Suburbanites don't like transit.  Cleveland needs to create density along the Rapid Lines to increase ridership and, of course, employment growth downtown and in Univeristy Circle is key to any transit recovery.

Cincinnati and Detroit?  Their trains aren't rolling yet but will be soon.  And that's kind of what I'm getting at, since those shiny new rail projects are happening nearby while we're limping along with obsolete stock and no plans for growth.  I'm not saying we should be ashamed of what we have-- at all-- I just don't think it's among the best pro-Cleveland angles for our marketing.  If there was serious talk of expanding one of the lines, that might be worth making some noise about.  But instead, the end of the blue line is being blocked off.

 

I would take the Waterfront Line through the CBD, north-south on E 9th or close to Playhouse Square, back to the Green, Blue and Red Lines.  Cinci's opening a $133 million streetcar in September.  Not sure how that's going to go but it would need to start expanding and producing strong ridership pretty quickly but Cleveland already has light-rail looping around 3/4ths of its CBD, just doesn't cross though it.  Kind of odd.

^Sadly, judging from ridership, Cleveland area residents don't think RTA's rail system compares with the other heavy and light rail systems around the country. But I agree with you. These new streetcar systems may someday be expanded to the point that they have good ridership, but right now they seem poised to move pretty small numbers.

[/quote

 

It has more to do with where people live today in the Cleveland region.  When the city held many more people the Rapid had significant use.  Until the early '80s, within a few years of RTA's creation, the bottom fell out on ridership and it's been stagnant or up and down since then. 

 

Suburbanites don't like transit.  Cleveland needs to create density along the Rapid Lines to increase ridership and, of course, employment growth downtown and in Univeristy Circle is key to any transit recovery.

Suburbanites are more open to trains than buses, and yes they see BRT as a bus.

 

The Red Line fell out of use during the early 80s largely because it was used by the school district to transport high school kids.  I watched this happen.  Their numbers buffered the initial impact a few years, though they did not pay full fare.  When this got phased out the ridership drop became clear. 

Cincinnati Streetcar Operating hours have been set by the transportation committee.

 

Streetcar operating hours:

Sun 9A-11P

Mon-Thur 6:30A-12A

Fri 6:30A-1A

Sat 8A-1a

 

Streetcar frequency:

15 minute base (non-peak)

12 minute peak Mon-Fri 11A-7P

 

 

Cincinnati's planned streetcar schedule is better than Cleveland's RTA Rapid schedule in that, at least on the weekend, Cincy has the good sense to run service till 1a while RTA stubbornly shuts down at 12a.  Many rapid transit cities run much later on weekends.  The Washington, D.C. Metro runs to 3a on Friday and Saturdays, will Philly's SEPTA runs the Broad Street subway and Market-Frankfort el all night on weekend nights.

 

Whenever I bring this up, RTA declines to explain this policy.

Sorry, I didn't mean to give you that hope. I don't see it happening. Not under the RTA's current "shrink to survive" policy.

 

Rats!!

^This again puzzles me as to why pols in affected neighborhoods and cities (E. Cleve, Collinwood, Euclid)  have been so silent.  If it wasn't for you making (positive) noise, RTA pretty much does what it wants without anyone questioning.  Damn shame.

 

Cincinnati's planned streetcar schedule is better than Cleveland's RTA Rapid schedule in that, at least on the weekend, Cincy has the good sense to run service till 1a while RTA stubbornly shuts down at 12a.  Many rapid transit cities run much later on weekends.  The Washington, D.C. Metro runs to 3a on Friday and Saturdays, will Philly's SEPTA runs the Broad Street subway and Market-Frankfort el all night on weekend nights.

 

Whenever I bring this up, RTA declines to explain this policy.

 

I think I can explain this policy. RTA doesn't have the money to run it later, nor the ridership to justify it.

The money I understand, but ridership cannot possibly materialize until after the service exists.

but ridership cannot possibly materialize until after the service exists.

 

Yes....but estimates exist so we don't have to make hundred million dollar dice rolls and wait around for ex post results.  The question is if those estimates are accurate and well founded.

And while the Blue/Green lines stop running at midnight, the Red Line operates until 1 a.m. (and starts again before 4 a.m. -- so it's a 21-hour service).

The money I understand, but ridership cannot possibly materialize until after the service exists.

 

Exactly!

hundred million dollar dice rolls

 

Keeping an existing system open for an additional hour or two would cost 8 figures?  If that's the case, maybe it's time for stagecoaches again.  That really sounds high.  Regarding ridership estimates, I'd be interested in how and when those were derived.

The 3 core entertainment/party areas in/near downtown: E. 4/WHD (plus 5 points/Gateway), FEB and Ohio City, are packed with people on weekend nights.  And all these areas are convenient to rail.  Univ. Circle-Uptown/Little Italy is not quite there, but is growing.

 

But we're playing the chicken and egg game:

 

RTA: "There's not enough patronage to justify the time extension on weekends because everybody's driving."

 

The Public: "We have to drive because RTA's not providing the late-night service."

 

... and yada, yada, yada... the beat goes on.

 

The other part of this is that our rail...while accessible to many entertainment districts...isn't accessible to many neighborhoods. Most of our stops are at suburban parking lots (especially the red line). The places millennial live: lakewood, cleveland heights, edgewater, are not accessible by rail. You end up having to drive to a parking lot to take the train. In that case, why not drive all the way?

Cincinnati Streetcar Operating hours have been set by the transportation committee.

 

Streetcar operating hours:

Sun 9A-11P

Mon-Thur 6:30A-12A

Fri 6:30A-1A

Sat 8A-1a

 

Streetcar frequency:

15 minute base (non-peak)

12 minute peak Mon-Fri 11A-7P

 

 

Cincinnati's planned streetcar schedule is better than Cleveland's RTA Rapid schedule in that, at least on the weekend, Cincy has the good sense to run service till 1a while RTA stubbornly shuts down at 12a.  Many rapid transit cities run much later on weekends.  The Washington, D.C. Metro runs to 3a on Friday and Saturdays, will Philly's SEPTA runs the Broad Street subway and Market-Frankfort el all night on weekend nights.

 

Whenever I bring this up, RTA declines to explain this policy.

 

Of course Cinci's streetcar is going to have optimistic hours.  Let's see how it goes down there with this line.  Costs and operating expenses have already grown.  This streetcar is not extensive and is reliant on downtown users only.  In other words, one has to drive or already be downtown, park and pay to use the streetcar.  Wonder how many people will be on it late-night let alone during the day.

See the Cincinnati Streetcar discussion. There are complaints the streetcar doesn't operate late enough, especially on Friday and Saturday nights.

The other part of this is that our rail...while accessible to many entertainment districts...isn't accessible to many neighborhoods. Most of our stops are at suburban parking lots (especially the red line). The places millennial live: Lakewood, Cleveland Heights, Edgewater, are not accessible by rail. You end up having to drive to a parking lot to take the train. In that case, why not drive all the way?

 

Does the train have to come to your door or block for it to be accessible?  And if not, might as well drive, strain the car, deal with traffic (downtown) and pay oodles for parking... I hear this in Cleveland more than I do other cities.  I also disagree that places like Edgewater and Cleveland Hts. are inaccessible to rail, with most of Edgewater, and much of lower Cleve Heights walkable to Red and Green Line stations, respectively.  And driving to these stations is little more than a 5 minute drive, if that much. 

 

One good trend that I see bucking this mentality is the growing number of Millenials who are using trains to hang out in Ohio City.  I've talked to a number who say they drive into Brookpark and ride the Red Line in.

The other part of this is that our rail...while accessible to many entertainment districts...isn't accessible to many neighborhoods. Most of our stops are at suburban parking lots (especially the red line). The places millennial live: lakewood, cleveland heights, edgewater, are not accessible by rail. You end up having to drive to a parking lot to take the train. In that case, why not drive all the way?

 

Consider the era in which the Red Line was built (when cities were being redesigned around driving) and where the Red Line was built (along freight railroads lines to reduce construction costs).

 

But what many people don't know is that much of the Red Line was designed in the 1920s to get the electric interurban railways from Painesville, Chardon, Chagrin Falls, Akron, Medina, Elyria and Lorain off the streetcar tracks and out of crowded city neighborhoods into downtown. No NE Ohio interurban survived the Depression.

 

When the Red Line was being revived after WWII, it was being done for reasons similar to before -- to speed suburban streetcars from Euclid, Cleveland Heights, Parma, West Park and Lakewood into downtown. But it was becoming apparent there would be few if any streetcars left after 1950. So a stand-alone rapid transit system was sought, fed primarily by connecting buses and park-n-rides.

 

Toronto's rapid transit system was built at the same time as Cleveland's but was built through neighborhoods and its stations were the focus of city-led efforts to promote the construction of high-rise housing and supportive retail and other services. Since there's been so much industrial abandonment along our Red Line, there's actually an opportunity now to create or expand neighborhoods around stations. That's slowly starting to happen, though mostly at/near hot neighborhoods. But it still pains me to see used-car lots and u-store-it facilities right next to stations. Such a waste....

Since there's been so much industrial abandonment along our Red Line, there's actually an opportunity now to create or expand neighborhoods around stations. That's slowly starting to happen, though mostly at/near hot neighborhoods.

 

You can't always, or even often, build residential in a former industrial site, primarily due to CERCLA.  The cleanup costs can be justified near a hot neighborhood, indeed that is a big reason why they are much more likely to grow block by block rather than nucleate. 

 

In any case the Red Line isn't well suited for neighborhood development, since it's basically in a ditch.  The Blue and Green Lines are a better bet, especially if one could be diverted to CC and UC.

That's true of only a few stations with difficult surroundings like East 34th and East 55th. But even those have or will soon have developable land within a 5-minute walk. At West 65th (a station in a trench) has a used-car lot next to it. Why? The East 105th/Quincy station has vastly over built surface parking lots for the Juvenile Justice Center immediately west of it. Why? The West 117th station has a self-storage facility less than 100 feet from it. Why? Also, if station parking lots were replaced with parking decks it would free up large swaths of land. The public sector can lead by establishing transit-supportive zoning, focus its various development incentives to those sites, and offer for sale most of each station parking lot and, when sold, use the sale proceeds and a TIF to provide the local funding share for federal grants to build parking decks. RTA could also offer its bonding authority since it offers some of the lowest bond interest rates around  (better than the port authority which frequently helps to debt-finance real estate developments).

Let me start by saying this is anecdotal, but as a 25y/o speaking to all of my friends, if the station isn't within a 10 minute walk of home it's unlikely to be used in everyday situations.

 

With high traffic situations (e.g. Sporting events, festivals, ect) that changes because the cost/benefit shifts. I very much enjoy using the Rapid, but that's today's reality IMHO.

^I also think West Blvd-Cudell has a lot of potential, too.  It's surrounded by and accessible to a large population and is fed well by the No. 26 bus coming from Edgewater/Lakewood.  I wish that nearby recently cleared Trinity factory site could be redeveloped for more than the light industrial development planned.  Why not mixed use retail/apts?  Seems like this could be yet another lost opportunity for TOD.

 

... and let's not even talk about my favorite whipping boy: E. 116, one of the biggest wasted TOD opportunities in the entire RTA system.

Let me start by saying this is anecdotal, but as a 25y/o speaking to all of my friends, if the station isn't within a 10 minute walk of home it's unlikely to be used in everyday situations.

 

With high traffic situations (e.g. Sporting events, festivals, ect) that changes because the cost/benefit shifts. I very much enjoy using the Rapid, but that's today's reality IMHO.

 

To each his (or her) own.  From my personal experience and observation, RTA is one of the few rail networks that offers free parking at it's rail stations.  Keep in mind, also, that rapid transit in most cities is designed to collect passengers to a rail trunk line, with passengers traditionally arriving by foot, but also by streetcars which morphed into buses in the mid 1950s.  Cleveland's Red Line was the 1st rapid transit in this country to heavily rely on cars/parking.  Some older systems, like Chicago's L, have a few parking lots at the ends of a few lines, but parking is minimal on such systems.

 

All this means that a lot of people are not within a 10 minute walk of rail stations, even in cities with great ones like Chicago or Washington... even NYC has tons of bus transfers in certain areas.  The important aspect is that trains deliver you within reasonable walking distance of your destination, and given that the core party/entertainment areas are clustered at or near RTA rail stations, RTA seems to deliver on that score.

Let me start by saying this is anecdotal, but as a 25y/o speaking to all of my friends, if the station isn't within a 10 minute walk of home it's unlikely to be used in everyday situations.

 

 

That was also a rule-of-thumb taught during my Urban Geography minor coursework at Kent State University. I specifically remember my Geography Of Urban Transportation class in 1986 focusing on this. The more doorways to more uses (especially housing) that are within one-third of a mile of transit stations the better.

 

In fact, I was just reading this morning that regional planning organizations in some cities with rail transit are even more aggressive than what I outlined in my prior message. Some offer Housing Incentive Programs (HIPs) that provide local governments with cash grants (as high as $2,000 per bedroom) for housing units built within 1/3 mile of rail stations.

 

Here is a helpful document:

http://www.crcog.org/publications/CommDevDocs/TCSP/Ch05_FactSheet_TOD.pdf

 

And yes, there is a quantifiable critical mass necessary to support transit (note that all transit trips are bracketed by riders making pedestrian trips)...

 

Mixed Use. One of the key principles of TOD is to have a mix of uses around the transit station. Mixed use development — combined with higher densities — is conducive to walking and is therefore compatible with transit service, which also serves pedestrians. The primary uses in a station area would typically be residential or office, with supporting uses such as retail, restaurants, entertainment, parks, and cultural, governmental, social, and educational institutions. A great deal of attention should be given to these supporting uses because they shape the character and quality of life of a neighborhood, even though they are not necessarily the most common uses.

 

Higher Density. Generally, the greater the intensity of residential and office development, the greater the levels of transit ridership.

+ The absolute minimum residential density required to support any form of regular, on-street bus service is about 6 to 8 units per acre, on average, for a transit corridor.

+ For express bus service with exclusively pedestrian access (i.e., no parkand-ride facilities) minimum average densities for the corridor should be about 15 units per acre. However, ridership levels at such minimum densities tend to be relatively low and heavily concentrated during commute hours.

+ Notably, researchers have found that there are sharp increases (a tripling) in ridership as average residential densities approach 30 units per acre.

+ In the downtown area, a minimum density of about 50 employees per acre is necessary to support regular transit service, and people do not switch from driving to transit until employment densities reach about 50 to 75 employees per acre.

^No question, density around stations is the ideal situation (ie: Shaker Sq).  But a lot of people do travel to rail-heads.

^No question, density around stations is the ideal situation (ie: Shaker Sq).  But a lot of people do travel to rail-heads.

 

What's a rail-head? You mean the end-points?

^No question, density around stations is the ideal situation (ie: Shaker Sq).  But a lot of people do travel to rail-heads.

 

What's a rail-head? You mean the end-points?

 

Gathering points; major transfer stations: ie: U. Circle, Windermere, Warrensville/Van Aken (for now), etc...

^I also think West Blvd-Cudell has a lot of potential, too.  It's surrounded by and accessible to a large population and is fed well by the No. 26 bus coming from Edgewater/Lakewood.  I wish that nearby recently cleared Trinity factory site could be redeveloped for more than the light industrial development planned.  Why not mixed use retail/apts?  Seems like this could be yet another lost opportunity for TOD.

 

... and let's not even talk about my favorite whipping boy: E. 116, one of the biggest wasted TOD opportunities in the entire RTA system.

 

I agree with Cudell--there are already quite a few recently rehabbed apartments there, and plenty more land to build new.  I feel bad for those pioneers on the other side of the tracks on Detroit--they need some neighbors!

^I also think West Blvd-Cudell has a lot of potential, too.  It's surrounded by and accessible to a large population and is fed well by the No. 26 bus coming from Edgewater/Lakewood.  I wish that nearby recently cleared Trinity factory site could be redeveloped for more than the light industrial development planned.  Why not mixed use retail/apts?  Seems like this could be yet another lost opportunity for TOD.

 

Beg to differ.  That area needs jobs a hell of a lot more than it needs stores or more residents.

 

Agree on E. 116th though.

^I also think West Blvd-Cudell has a lot of potential, too.  It's surrounded by and accessible to a large population and is fed well by the No. 26 bus coming from Edgewater/Lakewood.  I wish that nearby recently cleared Trinity factory site could be redeveloped for more than the light industrial development planned.  Why not mixed use retail/apts?  Seems like this could be yet another lost opportunity for TOD.

 

Beg to differ.  That area needs jobs a hell of a lot more than it needs stores or more residents.

 

Agree on E. 116th though.

 

Agreed on jobs--however the sites along Detroit Ave within a short walk to the Red Line station make more sense to put people/retail there.  There is plenty of industrial space further up Berea road for larger employment centers.

^I also think West Blvd-Cudell has a lot of potential, too.  It's surrounded by and accessible to a large population and is fed well by the No. 26 bus coming from Edgewater/Lakewood.  I wish that nearby recently cleared Trinity factory site could be redeveloped for more than the light industrial development planned.  Why not mixed use retail/apts?  Seems like this could be yet another lost opportunity for TOD.

 

Beg to differ.  That area needs jobs a hell of a lot more than it needs stores or more residents.

 

Agree on E. 116th though.

 

Agreed on jobs--however the sites along Detroit Ave within a short walk to the Red Line station make more sense to put people/retail there.  There is plenty of industrial space further up Berea road for larger employment centers.

 

The Midland Steel site is there, but that's been vacant since I worked over there 2005-7.  The thing is, the housing in those neighborhoods is more or less intact, you don't see the empty lots you see on the east side.

 

Light industrial pays better than retail.  Plus, that Rapid stop can drop people at work just as easily as at home.

A lot of people on the east end of Lakewood (like me) drive to the rapid station every day.  Parking lots at a train station can expand its reach considerably, which in turn expands the usage and popular support of the system.  That doesn't mean walk-up stations in neighborhood hubs are bad things, hardly, I'm just saying there's value in both types.

 

And while CERCLA does impede development of many industrial sites, most red line stations are within a five minute walk of a stretch of commercial street that's begging for redevelopment.

^I also think West Blvd-Cudell has a lot of potential, too.  It's surrounded by and accessible to a large population and is fed well by the No. 26 bus coming from Edgewater/Lakewood.  I wish that nearby recently cleared Trinity factory site could be redeveloped for more than the light industrial development planned.  Why not mixed use retail/apts?  Seems like this could be yet another lost opportunity for TOD.

 

Beg to differ.  That area needs jobs a hell of a lot more than it needs stores or more residents.

 

Agree on E. 116th though.

 

Depends upon what type of jobs.  If you're talking about service/white collar, I would tend to agree with you.  But another plant-type or warehouse-ish factory, no.  I would rather not emulate, even roughly, the factory that was torn down.  But I would never thumb my nose at multi-unit housing; not in a city that has recently led the nation in population loss... This location has the bones to be a truly great walkable neighborhood.  Lots of multi-unit dwellings along with some side streets along Detroit east of West Blvd, with small lots, solid housing and even some walk-up apartments.  There are a number of Victorian/pre-WWI era terrace-row homes around Cudell as well; many recently rehabbed.  I know there is a feeling of a crime element in parts of the area, notably south of Detroit, and around Madison, but even that seems to be declining -- I don't know, personally, because I don't live there, but a drive through of this area last summer left me with the impression the housing stock, and even some of the small commercial areas, were in better shape and it seemed like things were on the upswing.

 

Of course north of the N-S tracks you enter the tony Edgewater area ...

The cool part of all this TOD discussion is that something more formal is beginning. NOACA and its consulting team launched on Tuesday a TOD planning/development initiative.

^I also think West Blvd-Cudell has a lot of potential, too.  It's surrounded by and accessible to a large population and is fed well by the No. 26 bus coming from Edgewater/Lakewood.  I wish that nearby recently cleared Trinity factory site could be redeveloped for more than the light industrial development planned.  Why not mixed use retail/apts?  Seems like this could be yet another lost opportunity for TOD.

 

... and let's not even talk about my favorite whipping boy: E. 116, one of the biggest wasted TOD opportunities in the entire RTA system.

 

I agree with Cudell--there are already quite a few recently rehabbed apartments there, and plenty more land to build new.  I feel bad for those pioneers on the other side of the tracks on Detroit--they need some neighbors!

 

Cleveland needs to get the crime and gang issue resolved around Cudell.  Transit riders exit at W 98th with Cudell across the street or I should say the now infamous Cudell.  I lived at 98th/Detroit several years and a major appeal was using the Rapid for work and night classes downtown.  Tons of Section 8 then so I can't imagine how bad it is around there now.

 

 

I regularly switch between the Red Line and the #26 bus at West Boulevard station and have experienced no problems. It also seems from casual observations that ridership has grown there in recent months.

There are definitely some problems around that station.  Additional police presence would be welcome.  I personally witnessed a large fight on the train that started at the W98th station.  My brother's band no longer plays in clubs nearby because there have been so many robberies outside them.

There are definitely some problems around that station.  Additional police presence would be welcome.  I personally witnessed a large fight on the train that started at the W98th station.  My brother's band no longer plays in clubs nearby because there have been so many robberies outside them.

 

Which clubs? The only venue in the vicinity I know is Happy Dog, and that's quite a ways east. Now That's Class?