Eh, I feel a little bit for RTA on this one. Other people complain about not being able to buy single use tickets at stations for future use, because they are automatically "activated." For simplicity, maybe it would be better if everything purchased at stations were automatically activated and everything bought at retail stores or at specially marked Tower City vending machines came unvalidated.

 

The website, though, is still a trainwreck, as rockandroller's experience shows.  JeTDoG[/member], any progress with changes first suggested 8 months ago in this thread: https://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,30704.msg801557.html#new

 

[Edited for typos]

How about the ticket starts working when you use it? This seems simple. No "activation" needed.

 

^But you haven't used a ticket by buying it. That's the whole point.  "Activating" is how RTA knows you are using the ticket. This is the same in every major rail system in the U.S. Just because you have a metrocard, you can't jump the turnstile. Buying credit and applying it are different processes almost everywhere. What's confusing about RTA is that it sometimes combines these processes and then doesn't have turnstiles, so there's no mechanical reminder to apply the credit.

 

Either way, though, RTA does an abysmal job explaining this.

 

EDIT: here's an analogy that might make it more intuitive:  single use tickets are like paying at the register, but passes are like buying gift cards, so you still have to "use" them when you buy the service.

So you have the option of buying both activated and non-activated tickets at the machines? Every time I buy a ticket, I can't recall seeing either option - I just buy it. Or am I just going crazy?

 

Why would they sell some tickets that are automatically activated once you make the purchase? If all tickets were non-activated upon purchase, then there's no confusion at all. The clock wouldn't start ticking until you use them, which everyone can understand.

 

 

You wouldn't necessarily want a 5-ride pass activated at purchase, not if you're buying it for later use as I sometimes do.

So you have the option of buying both activated and non-activated tickets at the machines? Every time I buy a ticket, I can't recall seeing either option - I just buy it. Or am I just going crazy?

 

Yes.

 

 

Why would they sell some tickets that are automatically activated once you make the purchase? If all tickets were non-activated upon purchase, then there's no confusion at all. The clock wouldn't start ticking until you use them, which everyone can understand.

 

In order to board at any rapid station (turnstile at tower city, honor system at the other rapid stations) you need a ticket that's activated: means you're using it.  I think RTA is coming from the philosophy that some people (myself included; for example, I buy tickets that are good for '5 rides' often and going to a rapid station to buy them is usually most convenient) will be their tickets in advance, before they need to use them (since if they're activated, it means you have a 2.5 hour window that you can use it). I'll go to the rapid stop every couple weeks to buy the 5 rides (unactivated) will buy passes in advance; and then activating them shortly before you use them. 

 

The inconsistency is RTA's stop-gap solution for having some rapid stations with the turnstile, and everywhere else the honor system...

 

Just an FYI for rocknroller, many of the RTA ticket machines/kiosks, while accept cards, have errors say that they cannot accept debit cards, but only accept credit cards (or is it the other way around... It's annoying and I've seen this for 3-5 years at different kiosks...)

Yeah, that does it, I'm going to just find a place to park downtown.

^^This is where loose language gets confusing. Legally, you "need" an activated pass or ticket to be in any part of the Red Line station (that's the essence of POP), but it's only Tower City that has a mechanical enforcement mechanism (the turnstiles). Everywhere else, enforcement is through spot checks.

 

None of this would be necessary if we weren't using a POP system.  POP is what's at fault here.  Otherwise, all tickets would just be "activated" the first time you use them like every big city transit system.  The problem with POP is that you don't have to "use" your ticket most of the time.

^I think the bigger problem is RTA's antiquated fare equipment/media and its embarrassingly awful guidance to riders on its website and at stations. POP is crucial for keeping high volume bus lines (the the HL at peak) running quickly and buying modern turnstiles for every rail station would cost a bundle.

 

  [Typo]

None of this would be necessary if we weren't using a POP system.  POP is what's at fault here.  Otherwise, all tickets would just be "activated" the first time you use them like every biog city transit system.  The problem with POP is that you don't have to "use" your ticket most of the time.

 

Lots and lots of "big city" transit systems use proof-of-payment. And if they don't, they have high enough ridership to justify spending the money on turnstiles and station managers at each station.

With a modern smart card, payment could be made super simple. Sell pre-activated single ride tickets to people without cards and require everyone with a smart card to tap at a validation terminal before boarding any HL vehicle or entering any Red Line station. That tap would either deduct fare or activate the card as a timed pass. At Tower City, the validation terminal would be part of the turnstiles for entering riders. Exiting riders at Tower City would have to tap or swipe their single ride card as an automatic fare compliance check, just like now.

Yeah, that does it, I'm going to just find a place to park downtown.

 

We're making this sound more confusing than it really is. Don't worry about activation. Just buy the tickets. When you go through the turnstiles at Tower City, they will become activated if they weren't already.

Thanks. My plan at this point remains as before - look for something downtown first, and if that backfires, go to OC. I'm probably going to take the kid to Slyman's for breakfast since it will be a fun first visit there for him, and then we'll look for something E of downtown proper where people don't always think to go. I'm a pretty good ninja for sniffing out those spots and am happy to go early and then alight somewhere and wait for stuff to happen.

Yeah, that does it, I'm going to just find a place to park downtown.

 

We're making this sound more confusing than it really is. Don't worry about activation. Just buy the tickets. When you go through the turnstiles at Tower City, they will become activated if they weren't already.

 

And hope you don't run into a transit cop before getting to Tower City?

It's one stop, on a Saturday morning, I think we'd be fine. I'm sure if we showed someone tickets we bought, explained we didn't know how they worked and aren't regular riders and simply didn't know to activate them, they would refrain from punishing us.

And hope you don't run into a transit cop before getting to Tower City?

 

They won't do anything. You've made a good-faith effort by buying a ticket/pass. Even if you run into a cop at Tower City, as I've seen, he'll validate the ticket/pass for you. And I seem to recall that inserting a ticket/pass into the turnstile (rather than sliding it through at the top) will activate the ticket/pass.

It's one stop, on a Saturday morning, I think we'd be fine. I'm sure if we showed someone tickets we bought, explained we didn't know how they worked and aren't regular riders and simply didn't know to activate them, they would refrain from punishing us.

 

Technically, you could be hit with a hefty fine, but you're probably right.  However, it's just another example of the uncertainty and fear people have to face when riding thanks to the over-complicated system.

And hope you don't run into a transit cop before getting to Tower City?

 

They won't do anything. You've made a good-faith effort by buying a ticket/pass. Even if you run into a cop at Tower City, as I've seen, he'll validate the ticket/pass for you. And I seem to recall that inserting a ticket/pass into the turnstile (rather than sliding it through at the top) will activate the ticket/pass.

 

I thought I had read a story on here a while back of someone who got hit with a fine for doing exactly this (forgetting to activate a pass).  From the point of view of RTA, if they never did ticket these mistakes, what's to stop people from buying a pass and never activating it until they get caught?

Feds grant RTA a 30-day extension on $12 million repayment

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/01/feds_grant_rta_a_30-day_extens.html

 

New deadline is Feb. 21

 

From the FTA's letter to GCRTA & City:

 

We really should have created an entirely separate thread for this whole saga.

We really should have created an entirely separate thread for this whole saga.

 

I agree.  People are fixated on this one issue -- not that it's unimportant, because it is -- but there seems to be less concern about the more important fact that the system is broke now, about to receive huge cuts because of the loss Medicate sales tax revenue, while our stingy, transit-hating governor says there's nothing more (than the peanuts the system already gets from the State) coming. 

It's kind of a big deal, think of the implications for future money.  The city is demonstrating that it can't be trusted and it sees transit as a burden.

Going back to the above conversation about tickets vs. passes etc. ...

 

(1) What is POP?  Why is it controversial?

 

(2) Are there any major metro systems in the US that are 100% honor system?  I actually just got back from a week in Munich, used transit to get everywhere (amazing), and even the rail lines to the airport (45-ish minutes outside of town) were all honor system (though of course with random inspections, but I didn't see inspections the whole time I was there except on the regional, intercity rail system when we took a day trip to Salzburg).

 

 

 

You'd think that with modern technology, it would be possible to devise a system that was reasonably tight and yet still nonintrusive.  Though I have to admit that most of the easiest ones that I can think of off the top of my head involve smartphones, and not everyone has one.

POP is proof-of payment, the same thing that you are describing as the honor system. It's not really accurate to call it the honor system though, as there are random inspections throughout the system. And I don't know of any other heavy rail systems in the US besides ours that uses proof-of-payment. It's much more common in light rail systems, and oddly enough, our light rail does not use POP

^^To the extent POP is controversial in Cleveland, it's party because it's somewhat unfamiliar in the US, but maybe more so because RTA has done a horrible job explaining it  and implementing it.

^^To the extent POP is controversial in Cleveland, it's party because it's somewhat unfamiliar in the US, but maybe more so because RTA has done a horrible job explaining it  and implementing it.

 

POP is controversial, and unfamiliar in the US, because Americans don’t like being randomly approached/challenged, but are used to making transactions at a defined place and time.

So proof of payment is the system in which you prove payment when challenged, as opposed to barrier-based access or something similar?  That's actually refreshing to know that RTA is going that way, even if the signage and other information could be more user-friendly (and perhaps the range of options narrowed, if it's too big, so that new riders aren't overwhelmed).  Though in Munich I think I had a total of eight options and it wasn't all that hard.  They had zone-based and time-based options that added some complexity (you could order an off-peak-hours-only day pass, for example).

 

Either way, I'll give props to RTA for putting our heavy rail on a POP system, then.

Our heavy rail system has more common with light-rail systems in terms of usage, operations, and fare collection. The fact that it shares tracks and stations with a light-rail system, the only place in the USA where that occurs, makes it a closer cousin to LRT than HRT. POP is common in the USA among LRT/streetcar systems.

POP is also increasingly common on high volume bus routes in the US. There are definite drawbacks, but the operational efficiency it offers without the huge costs of restricted access platforms or additional human conductors is pretty clear.

Our heavy rail system has more common with light-rail systems in terms of usage, operations, and fare collection. The fact that it shares tracks and stations with a light-rail system, the only place in the USA where that occurs, makes it a closer cousin to LRT than HRT. POP is common in the USA among LRT/streetcar systems.

 

All of the Red Line platforms are set up to be restricted access, right?  Which is why it makes no sense that we'd have POP on the Red Line and not the Green or Blue lines.

Our heavy rail system has more common with light-rail systems in terms of usage, operations, and fare collection. The fact that it shares tracks and stations with a light-rail system, the only place in the USA where that occurs, makes it a closer cousin to LRT than HRT. POP is common in the USA among LRT/streetcar systems.

 

All of the Red Line platforms are set up to be restricted access, right?  Which is why it makes no sense that we'd have POP on the Red Line and not the Green or Blue lines.

 

I agree. RTA's answer is that they can't afford to put fare machines at all the light rail stations to make it POP.

^^Red Line platforms may be "set up" to have restricted access, but actually making them so would cost quite a bit. You'll recall that before POP, at several stations, red Line trains boarded only through front doors and would sit there till a line of people had paid, one at a time. Completely separate from POP, RTA decided years ago that the costs of restricting access at most stations simply aren't worth it.

POP on the Red Line was definitely a step forward.  The Red Line now runs with a 2-car base at all times, which gives the system more flexibility... Before POP, during off peak hours, the Red Line operated with single cars with front-door boarding.  Not only was service slower because of this 1-man/woman driver/fare counter operations with single-file commuter boarding, these 1-car trains were often crowded, with standees, when flash crowds showed up...

 

... but RTA's education to the public about POP has been terrible.  Passengers are often confused by the fact of traditional turnstile barricades at Tower City but then, nowhere else, and the fact the Blue/Green/Waterfront Lines are pay on board, and then with the wacko pay board, Westbound, pay leave, Eastbound... Unless you're a regular, it's easy to understand the confusion.

 

... but RTA's education to the public about POP has been terrible.  Passengers are often confused by the fact of traditional turnstile barricades at Tower City but then, nowhere else, and the fact the Blue/Green/Waterfront Lines are pay on board, and then with the wacko pay board, Westbound, pay leave, Eastbound... Unless you're a regular, it's easy to understand the confusion.

 

Especially since there is no such signage at light rail stations and very rarely on the LRT cars themselves. And then there's the whole issue of when you board the WFL going to Tower City, you have to pay when you enter the train, then if you get off at TC, you have to go through the gates. But if you paid cash on the train, I guess you just have to tell the attendant at the gate and hope they let you through?

 

(I know we've beaten this subject to death over the years, but it's still ridiculous and I like complaining about it).

^actually I got it reversed,  it's pay board Eastbound, pay leave, Westbound... I grew up with this riding the old Shaker Rapid; I should know it better.

  I haven't posted in a looooong time on here, so I am almost a newbie again (using a new name)!  For me, I would prefer to see a turnstile system (waist or fully upright) where you have to slide your card to get through (similar to NY or Chicago).  In a perfect world, it would be nice to see people working the ticket booth at every station AND to see RTA police boarding trains once in a while instead of in patrol cars.  I have seen them during high profile events on trains, but it would be nice to see them more often in stations or on trains (foot patrol) rather than driving around in cars where their presence isn't really felt.

Just noticed on a job board that RTA is advertising to hire an application analyst, a senior application analyst, and a Senior Programming Analyst. Maybe they plan to revise some of their passenger-facing systems.

 

https://www.indeed.com/viewjob?jk=88a7d303075bd493

The RTA board has been quiet lately (save the on-going Public Square mess, which is trivial compared to RTA's funding issues) which is bad.  I wish we could see progress on finding a funding solution (preferably long-term), to fend off more severe service cuts.  After recent service cutting, the system currently is just a shell of what it should be, and any more cuts may seriously undermine RTA's viability as an even partially effective big-city transit network.  The silence leads me to believe nothing's really happening on the funding front.  In this case, no news is bad news and presents the image that nobody (local official-wise) cares enough to do anything now that our supposedly moderate gov Kasich has definitely stated re increasing funding: Ohio transit systems, drop dead.

The RTA board has been quiet lately (save the on-going Public Square mess, which is trivial compared to RTA's funding issues) which is bad.  I wish we could see progress on finding a funding solution (preferably long-term), to fend off more severe service cuts.  After recent service cutting, the system currently is just a shell of what it should be, and any more cuts may seriously undermine RTA's viability as an even partially effective big-city transit network.  The silence leads me to believe nothing's really happening on the funding front.  In this case, no news is bad news and presents the image that nobody (local official-wise) cares enough to do anything now that our supposedly moderate gov Kasich has definitely stated re increasing funding: Ohio transit systems, drop dead.

 

The Public Square mess isn't trivial. It will severely impact RTA's ability to get federal grants to fund future projects. The board will hold an executive session tomorrow.

In this case, no news is bad news and presents the image that nobody (local official-wise) cares enough to do anything now that our supposedly moderate gov Kasich has definitely stated re increasing funding: Ohio transit systems, drop dead.

 

The executive budget proposes increasing transit funding 33% in the next biennium.

My question is: Why was RTA dependent upon a short-term fix? It amounts to $18 million.

 

"Gov. John Kasich may have solved a problem for the state in his budget, changing the way Ohio collects Medicaid taxes to get Ohio out of a legal jam.

 

It's all because under Kasich's budget, the counties and transit agencies will lose their ability to piggyback their own sales taxes on top of a tax the state was collecting from Medicaid providers. Arguably, what they and Ohio were doing was out of compliance with federal Medicaid rules anyway, and Kasich is bringing everything into line."

 

This piggy-back has only existed since 2009, and the federal Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services warned RTA in 2014 to stop riding on the sales tax. Enforcement was pushed to June 2017.

My question is: Why was RTA dependent upon a short-term fix? It amounts to $18 million.

 

"Gov. John Kasich may have solved a problem for the state in his budget, changing the way Ohio collects Medicaid taxes to get Ohio out of a legal jam.

 

It's all because under Kasich's budget, the counties and transit agencies will lose their ability to piggyback their own sales taxes on top of a tax the state was collecting from Medicaid providers. Arguably, what they and Ohio were doing was out of compliance with federal Medicaid rules anyway, and Kasich is bringing everything into line."

 

This piggy-back has only existed since 2009, and the federal Center for Medicare and Medicaid Services warned RTA in 2014 to stop riding on the sales tax. Enforcement was pushed to June 2017.

 

The Great Recession was in full force in 2009, causing sales tax revenues to crash. The MCO sales tax revenues helped soften the blow, which still forced RTA to undertake service cuts and fare hikes in response. But it could have been worse if not for the MCO sales tax revenues.

Very sad.

 

One dead after train hits pedestrian in Little Italy

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2017/02/one_dead_after_train_hits_pede.html#incart_river_home_pop

This is a terrible tragedy; she was only 18.  I saw a guy do the same thing shortly after this station opened: he was walking through the adjacent small pay lot along E. 119th Street before he climbed up the short hillside and onto the train platform rather than walk through to the end of the lot/E.119th at Mayfield Road around and into the Little Italy-U.C. RTA station and up the stairs to the platform.  That day we shook are heads at the foolishness of this man but at least he survived.  This was an accident waiting to happen.  To access the platform in this manner, hill-climbing passengers must cross the Red Line's eastbound tracks where trains enter the platform area quickly from a nearly blind location down a steep incline and around a sharp corner that is shielded by the station's head-house.  This lady and her friends, like the guy I witnessed, took the foolish risk just to save a few steps.  RTA will likely have to erect a fence at the base of the hill along E. 119th to prevent this.  Although this young lady made a bad mistake, she didn't deserve to die.  I wonder whether her family will seek damages from RTA.

 

Greater Cleveland RTA ridership dips to record low; annual ridership, 1976-2016

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio - Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority ridership dipped to a record low of 43.8 million in 2016.

 

The decline of 6.9 percent represented the second straight year of losses after increasing ridership for the transit agency in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014, the RTA reported.

 

The previous record low of 44.7 million riders was in 2010.

 

Below is a chart showing year-by-year ridership since the the first year of the regional transit agency in 1976, formed with the merger of several municipal public transit services.

 

The record high of 125.9 million riders was set in 1979, the fourth year of operation.

 

Transit ridership is the result of numerous factors, including the service offered, the concentration of jobs downtown at the core of the system, traffic delays (or lack of them), gasoline prices, parking rates, employment and public funding.

 

In a budget decision, RTA reduced routes and increased fares in August 2016.

 

The Greater Cleveland RTA is Ohio's largest transit agency, carrying more than double the number of riders than the Central Ohio Transit Authority in the Columbus area. COTA reported ridership of 18,827,846 in 2016.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/datacentral/index.ssf/2017/03/greater_cleveland_rta_ridershi_2.html

 

Hard to believe RTA moved just under 130K in 1980.  As usual with PD articles, detail here is minimal.  I wish there was a breakdown between bus, rail and BRT.  I wouldn't be surprised if at least parts of the Rapid system, probably the Red Line, grew slightly, even with the constant, annoying shutdowns... Problem with info like this that contained in this article will likely motivate some lawmakers (with an "R" behind their names) to allocate even less to transit.  This is Ohio, an Alabama/Mississippi wannabe.

 

Comparison to ridership from year before. Not broken down by mode but interesting nonetheless.

If rail use is growing RTA would probably not want it known.  They seem hellbent on promoting BRT instead.  And several bus routes were canceled/shortened and shunted to the health line, so its numbers are juiced.

 

"Concentration of jobs downtown" becomes a more important factor when the agency blocks off its own rail lines, preventing itself from ever serving newer job centers.  Even before the recent cuts, bus service to job centers near the outerbelt was minimal.  And crosstown service is a shadow of its former self.  Some of this is funding issues out of RTA's hands, some is due to the increasingly convoluted situation downtown in which RTA seems complicit.  The very notion of east and west transit hubs works against crosstown travel.  Every transfer is a hurdle and a potential hour-plus of delay.  It all adds up to make transit use impracticable for everyone, especially for those who need it most.

So, GCRTA, what's the long range vision, strategy and tactics for reversing this downward trend and becoming a more vital piece of an economic revitalization of Greater Cleveland? You are the transit experts. There is no other public sector transit planning body in Cuyahoga County, and very little else in the rest of Northeast Ohio. We will take our cues from your expertise.