^Potential discussion points:

1. What do you like about these routes? What would you do differently?

2. What other transit lines would do?

3. How would you prioritize these and other transit projects?

2 hours ago, Terdolph said:

The only thing that makes sense to do right now is to complete the waterfront loop.  That will give the greatest bang for the buck in terms of catalyzing down town investment.  That, and taking the green line (blue line?) across Warnsville Center Rd. to the Amazon fulfillment center as a park and ride for I271 and 480.

 

I like both of those routes a lot. There are two main reasons I have the Lorain - Downtown CLE - Solon Commuter Rail prioritized above them:

1. It connects more people to more jobs. I’m pretty sure Solon is the third largest job center in Cuyahoga County, maybe even in Northeast Ohio. It’s both manufacturing and corporate jobs. I think there would be significant reverse commuters. And because it is on existing, well maintained tracks, start up costs are reasonable. 

2. It would serve many people who do not currently use public transit. I believe this would increase the political support for transit across the area, thus making it more feasible to pass levies to invest in transit. 

Edited June 24, 20195 yr by Boomerang_Brian

Here's a conversation that needs to happen first.... What kind of political action work, organizing, fundraising, etc. would be needed to develop a long-range plan, put a levy on a ballot and conduct an educational campaign in order to get voters to support taxing themselves more to raise the revenues necessary to realize that long-range plan?

There's  bit of a chicken-and-egg problem here.  You need transit, like other infrastructure, in order to achieve optimal rates of economic growth.  Especially downtown.  But you can't fund transit without that growth.  So how does one break this cycle?  In part, by educating people about how it came to be.  There seems to be no shortage of funding for roads and bridges and Opportunity Corridor Boulevards and border walls and things of that nature, and I'm not arguing either way as to the need or usefulness of these, but I would argue that, especially close to the urban core, it's shortsighted to subsidize more cars in and through downtown while not offering transit anything even close to a level playing field.  Ultimately, subsidies for cars and roads and oil pipelines and the like are what created the current difficult climate for transit, pretty much throughout the nation, but especially here.  They need to be re-thought.  All of this is well-known to most people on this forum, but the general public seems largely unaware.  They need to be informed and educated as to the past, present, and possible futures of transit, the role it plays in the health of cities, and the role that central cities play in terms of quality of life throughout the entire region and the nation, even in low-density suburban, exurban, and rural areas.  With greater understanding may come greater sympathy for the need to maintain what we have so we don't lose it altogether, and hopefully at some point to begin to rebuild.  I don't think you can force people to pay for things they don't see a need for.  I think you need to persuade them that it is in their own best interests to have healthy cities, and that healthy cities need transit.

Edited June 27, 20195 yr by jtadams
'cuz I'm a moron?

Externalities are a well-established and universally recognized fact according to all major schools of economic thought.  The problem is that there is a lot money to be "made" (actually, stolen) by inflicting negative externalities upon others without the latter's consent, usually by means of collusion between business and government.  Also, positive externalities, such as the ones we're discussing here, typically are more difficult to monetize, and, hence, there is less incentive on the part of both business and government to create them. 

1 hour ago, jtadams said:

Externalities are a well-established and universally recognized fact according to all major schools of economic thought.  The problem is that there is a lot money to be "made" (actually, stolen) by inflicting negative externalities upon others without the latter's consent, usually by means of collusion between business and government.  Also, positive externalities, such as the ones we're discussing here, typically are more difficult to monetize, and, hence, there is less incentive on the part of both business and government to create them. 

RTA may be hiring a new general manager tomorrow. I'm told it will be a new person from outside Greater Cleveland. We'll see!

RTA's new CEO/GM is India Birdsong

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/07/rta-board-approves-new-general-manager.html

 

A little bit about her background....

https://www.masstransitmag.com/bus/press-release/12087038/nashville-metropolitan-transit-authority-mta-mtarta-hires-india-birdsong-ascoo

 

 

^ Seems pretty young, so hopefully has a fresh perspective and a good amount of drive and determination to get things done in that intransigent mess. Great name too!

The proof of the pudding will be in the eating though. I wish her luck!

On 6/24/2019 at 7:10 AM, Boomerang_Brian said:

^Potential discussion points:

1. What do you like about these routes? What would you do differently?

2. What other transit lines would do?

3. How would you prioritize these and other transit projects?

You may want to add the Red Line / HealthLine expansion to Euclid.  I don't know how active RTA is pursuing it right now, though.

 

I am glad folks here are still thinking of rebuilding / expanding the system.  I do have a thought.

 

It's kinda the elephant in the room, having only one station in the heart of downtown kills mass transit in Cleveland.  This was a problem since the failure of the subway circulator and Halle's was forced to shuttle patrons from Public Square to its store.  We've tried band-aids (e.g. loop buses*, Gateway walkway, the HealthLine) but without a single-seat rail option, any transit in Cleveland will always be ineffective.

 

* I totally should have kept those psychedelic color-coded Loop bus schedules.  Totally from the 80s.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

RTA's new CEO/GM is India Birdsong

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/07/rta-board-approves-new-general-manager.html

 

A little bit about her background....

https://www.masstransitmag.com/bus/press-release/12087038/nashville-metropolitan-transit-authority-mta-mtarta-hires-india-birdsong-ascoo

 

It’s odd to me that this is being announced on July 3rd. That’s when you out out news that you don’t want anyone to hear. Hopefully that’s just coincidence. 

 

There’s a lot to like about her resume. I like it when leaders have come up through the ranks - it appears that she has. I like that she has experience w systems that have rail transit (Chicago and Philly). I like that she has experience working where the state government and many voters (in Tennessee) do not generally support transit - unfortunately that will be useful experience here. Hopefully she has learned important lessons from the Nashville transit vote failure that can be applied here. Knowing what doesn’t work is very important in figuring out what does work. 

1 hour ago, PaxtonMarley said:

You may want to add the Red Line / HealthLine expansion to Euclid.  I don't know how active RTA is pursuing it right now, though.

 

I am glad folks here are still thinking of rebuilding / expanding the system.  I do have a thought.

 

It's kinda the elephant in the room, having only one station in the heart of downtown kills mass transit in Cleveland.  This was a problem since the failure of the subway circulator and Halle's was forced to shuttle patrons from Public Square to its store.  We've tried band-aids (e.g. loop buses*, Gateway walkway, the HealthLine) but without a single-seat rail option, any transit in Cleveland will always be ineffective.

 

* I totally should have kept those psychedelic color-coded Loop bus schedules.  Totally from the 80s.

 

The reason I didn’t include it is because the cost to utility ratio seems way out of balance. When that extension was more seriously considered there was a lot more industry through Collinwood and Euclid. 

 

That said, not much about my proposal is realistically feasible under the current political situation anyway, so I might as well include it. I do like how it could be a connector line from Lake county commuter rail to East jobs and vice versa. 

2 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

 

It’s odd to me that this is being announced on July 3rd. That’s when you out out news that you don’t want anyone to hear. Hopefully that’s just coincidence. 

 

 

Or news you don't want anyone to look at in depth.   Hope that's not the case.

Some more background on India Birdsong, seems promising and like we might be getting the leader GCRTA has been in desperate need of:

 

GCRTA selects India Birdsong as top choice for next CEO and GM

GCRTA’s Board has entered negotiations with Birdsong who has experience managing transit systems in Chicago and Nashville.

MISCHA WANEK-LIBMAN

 

India Birdsong has been selected as the top choice to be the next CEO and general manager of the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority (GCRTA). The GCRTA Board of Trustees voted unanimously on July 3 to enter contract negotiations with Birdsong following a nationwide search.

[...]

Birdsong is currently the chief operating officer of the Nashville Metropolitan Transit Authority where she is responsible for all of WeGo Public Transit’s bus and rail operations, including maintenance, improvement and supporting the system's 25-year growth plan. She leads more than 550 employees, including union and administrative staffers, two garages and maintenance shops, a commuter rail line and a downtown transfer central hub.

 

Over the past year, the Nashville system has launched several improvements and initiatives, including updated bus routes with tracking services on a mobile app and tech upgrades such as USB chargers and free Wi-Fi on buses.

 

Read More...

Q&A with RTA’s next general manager, India Birdsong

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/07/qa-with-rtas-next-general-manager-india-birdsong.html

 

By Courtney Astolfi, cleveland.com

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio — India Birdsong was tapped Wednesday as Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority’s next chief executive and general manager and will take the reins of an agency facing financial hurdles, record low ridership and issues with public confidence.

 

Birdsong, who is the chief operating officer for Nashville’s transit agency, spoke by telephone with cleveland.com about her priorities, strategies and challenges. 

 

 

 

Talk about a challenging job. Good luck to her. 

Used the app for my ticket the other day for the first time in a long time (it had locked me out of my account when I tried logging in after I got a new phone last year). Its very nice that they finally got the devices where you can scan your phone now instead of having to show it to the operators to have them buzz you through the turnstiles at TC. What wasn't nice was the very condescending attitude from the operator when I tried to show him my phone before knowing they even had the scanners now.

Glad they have the scanners now that can apply some intelligence to the system. It was easily scammed when you just showed your screen to an operator. On a couple of occasions on the Healthline, I saw people just drag up a screenshot of a ‘ticket’ on their phones and show it the driver.

 

Tower City RTA staff are the absolute worst unfortunately. 

Edited July 7, 20195 yr by roman totale XVII

Would like to see lakefront to stay  the same  but turned into heavy rail and  into a downtown subway loop where no rail exist at time. Have it go up 9th turn sharply hitting CSU then go up Euclid before hitting TT again. Is that too much to ask? Not sure of route, just wish Cleveland had a subway downtown. 

The Dual Hub project might have provided genuine rapid transit service downtown, but I think that ship sailed once it was scaled back to become a glorified slightly faster #6.  There isn't a way to build rail downtown anymore at a reasonable cost.  And we clearly can't afford to maintain the system we have now.  I think this and a lot of other very valid and useful ideas will likely have to wait until the political and economic climate changes for the better, presuming this ever happens.

^I doubt it. Residential development doesn't pay any tax increment as it is, and for commercial development, the city routinely plows its tax increment into the project as a subsidy. The only property tax revenue left to redirect would be the school's portion on commercial development, and with Class A rents hovering in the low 20s, I doubt we're going to see a whole lot of new office space built in the loop area. 

Red Line rail service between the West 117th and West Boulevard train stations, where a retaining wall needs repairs, is expected to be restored by late August.

 

With all of these service disruptions, ridership on the Red Line was down 16% last month. HealthLine ridership, which has been significantly slowed by RTA's inability to restore proof-of-payment without using law enforcement, is down 20%. #FixRTA

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/07/rta-red-line-between-west-117th-and-west-boulevard-expected-to-re-open-by-late-august.html

 

No real surprise.  What is disappointing is that as far as I can tell people are accepting this as "business as usual," rather than asking the questions that need to be asked.  Could this problem have been detected and corrected earlier, for example when they were rebuilding the S-curve a few years ago?  Why does RTA not fight to regain the right to police its own system?  Why are signals STILL not prioritized?  It was always understood that the only way the HealthLine could come close to meeting the Euclid Avenue corridor's need for rapid transit would be if it were true BRT and not a glorified #6 bus.  Where is the outrage?  I don't even see much here, which is the last place I'd expect for it to have gone missing.  Have we simply become resigned to the fact that we will always have substandard transit even for a city our size, a fact for which I don't place blame, but lament all the same?

 

15 hours ago, KJP said:

Red Line rail service between the West 117th and West Boulevard train stations, where a retaining wall needs repairs, is expected to be restored by late August.

 

With all of these service disruptions, ridership on the Red Line was down 16% last month. HealthLine ridership, which has been significantly slowed by RTA's inability to restore proof-of-payment without using law enforcement, is down 20%. #FixRTA

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2019/07/rta-red-line-between-west-117th-and-west-boulevard-expected-to-re-open-by-late-august.html

 

 

It was always grossly naive to think POP (aka "paperz, pliz") could work anywhere in the system without the use of law enforcement.  It's confrontational by its very nature and many people react poorly to that, especially if they feel they are being targetted for any reason.

16 minutes ago, jtadams said:

No real surprise.  What is disappointing is that as far as I can tell people are accepting this as "business as usual," rather than asking the questions that need to be asked.  Could this problem have been detected and corrected earlier, for example when they were rebuilding the S-curve a few years ago?  Why does RTA not fight to regain the right to police its own system?  Why are signals STILL not prioritized?  It was always understood that the only way the HealthLine could come close to meeting the Euclid Avenue corridor's need for rapid transit would be if it were true BRT and not a glorified #6 bus.  Where is the outrage?  I don't even see much here, which is the last place I'd expect for it to have gone missing.  Have we simply become resigned to the fact that we will always have substandard transit even for a city our size, a fact for which I don't place blame, but lament all the same?

 

 

A case can be made that BRT is an oxymoron, and certainly the "Healthline" could be used as an example.  It is indeed a glorified #6, and was always going to be one.   Outrage is useless.  Signal prioritization never had a chance.  It might be possible once the OC opens up, but even that is iffy.

 

In a very real way it's a microcosm of the system as a whole.  

 

GCRTA is a government run bureaucracy  with a de facto monopoly.   There is no competition, no benchmarks.   In such organizations, one maintains by keeping a low profile and advances through schmoozing and other BS.  Excellence is not rewarded and indeed is organizationally risky.  Things are always going to be done half assed.   There is an awareness that public transit is not a high priority, because it primarily serves a portion of the population whose political influence is rather ephermal.

The merger, and the subsequent Krumholz inspired priorities, cast this in stone.

How depressing, yet undeniably true.  But, acknowledging the present realities including that our society deems transit to be a government rather than a private sector responsibility, and one that serves primarily the politically powerless, does there yet remain any realistic hope for meaningful change?  And/or (and these possibilities are not mutually exclusive) is it time to start challenging these deeply seated, yet flawed assumptions?

5 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

A case can be made that BRT is an oxymoron, and certainly the "Healthline" could be used as an example.  It is indeed a glorified #6, and was always going to be one.   Outrage is useless.  Signal prioritization never had a chance.  It might be possible once the OC opens up, but even that is iffy.

 

A disappointment, yes.  But if outrage is useless, nothing will change.  Except the weather.

 

Keep pushing for signal prioritization!

 

6 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

GCRTA is a government run bureaucracy  with a de facto monopoly.   There is no competition, no benchmarks. 

 

GCRTA has a LOT of competition -- huge government support for highways, Uber, Lift, private car ownership, etc.....

If we wanted government to stop playing favorites, GCRTA would be getting a lot more assistance relative to Cuyahoga County roadways (yes, buses use roads too, but more efficiently) than it is.  Americans like independent go-anywhere, go-anytime private cars, even if it is more expensive to maintain all of that infrastructure so that we can avoid having to ride the bus with our fellow citizens.

 

6 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 In such organizations, one maintains by keeping a low profile and advances through schmoozing and other BS.  Excellence is not rewarded and indeed is organizationally risky.  Things are always going to be done half assed. 

 

Sounds like my time at GM.  But seriously, that is a pessimistic take on government and the world.  In every organization, even the government, there are superstars and there are shirkers.  Being in government or in a private business doesn't change that. 

 

6 hours ago, E Rocc said:

  There is an awareness that public transit is not a high priority, because it primarily serves a portion of the population whose political influence is rather ephermal.

 

 

Can't argue with that unfortunate fact.

 

5 hours ago, jtadams said:

How depressing, yet undeniably true.  But, acknowledging the present realities including that our society deems transit to be a government rather than a private sector responsibility, and one that serves primarily the politically powerless, does there yet remain any realistic hope for meaningful change?  And/or (and these possibilities are not mutually exclusive) is it time to start challenging these deeply seated, yet flawed assumptions?

 

There are always going to be services that are valuable to a community but not profitable for the private sector -- see daily mail delivery, street sweeping, city parks, and don't forget how eager the railroads were to unload their passenger rail service to Amtrak!

 

Yes, I would say that is past time to challenge deep-seated yet flawed assumptions that mass transit is only for the poors and deserves less funding than other modes of transit.  I am hopeful that the next generation will finally ditch the car-centered development America has promoted for the past century, but not very optimistic.  It is never too late to hope for meaningful change.

 

4 minutes ago, Foraker said:

 

A disappointment, yes.  But if outrage is useless, nothing will change.  Except the weather.

 

Keep pushing for signal prioritization!

 

 

GCRTA has a LOT of competition -- huge government support for highways, Uber, Lift, private car ownership, etc.....

If we wanted government to stop playing favorites, GCRTA would be getting a lot more assistance relative to Cuyahoga County roadways (yes, buses use roads too, but more efficiently) than it is.  Americans like independent go-anywhere, go-anytime private cars, even if it is more expensive to maintain all of that infrastructure so that we can avoid having to ride the bus with our fellow citizens.

 

 

Sounds like my time at GM.  But seriously, that is a pessimistic take on government and the world.  In every organization, even the government, there are superstars and there are shirkers.  Being in government or in a private business doesn't change that. 

 

 

Can't argue with that unfortunate fact.

 

 

There are always going to be services that are valuable to a community but not profitable for the private sector -- see daily mail delivery, street sweeping, city parks, and don't forget how eager the railroads were to unload their passenger rail service to Amtrak!

 

Yes, I would say that is past time to challenge deep-seated yet flawed assumptions that mass transit is only for the poors and deserves less funding than other modes of transit.  I am hopeful that the next generation will finally ditch the car-centered development America has promoted for the past century, but not very optimistic.  It is never too late to hope for meaningful change.

 

 

The quote function works oddly in this case, so a couple excerpted points.

 

-There's a lot of similarity between huge corps and government.   Government has less opportunity for tangible reward though.  Even the most hidebound companies can be dragged out of the routine by competition.   

 

-"Mass transit is only for the poors" is by no means the default assumption in the USA.  Hell, it's not even the default in NE Ohio.  Ever see a LakeTran commuter bus?   Even go by their park and ride lots:  plenty of expensive cars.   It's part of the culture at GCRTA though, and it was put there pretty much on purpose.   Changing that will require an appeal to the those with other options, on their terms.  With no guarantee it will work.

 

 

I would say it is the default assumption for NE Ohio.  Commuter services are an exception.  Everyone loves these, and they serve the broader public in at least two ways: (a) helping to make our downtown possible, and (b) keeping a handful of cars off of the roads at the times they tend to be the most congested.  But aside from these?  Few people with cars make non-downtown, non-commute trips via public transit.  I don't, even though I would love to, and probably would if it were not grossly inconvenient.  It would be less inconvenient though if there were more service (both frequency and scope), and there would be better frequency and scope of service if transit were perceived as more than just a "commuters and poor people" type of service.

Also it's been brought to my attention that these kinds of park & ride commuter services are very expensive, not coming near breaking even in terms of farebox recovery to cost ratio.  The benefits they bring relative to that cost, and the fact that they transfer wealth from the less prosperous to the more, should be examined.  Commuter-oriented services tend to cost MUCH more in other parts of the country, and perhaps the answer to both problems is to simply raise the price to what the market will truly bear.

I've long pondered, as I'm sure have others here, what a truly forward-thinking transit system would look like.  One designed for a hopefully more prosperous future rather than our dismal post-industrial past.  And one based on there being at least a little bit more of a level playing field with respect to roads and cars than what we have now.  I don't think it's beyond the realm of possibility.  I don't know that transit alone is enough to bring economic growth back to the region.  But it is certainly a crucial component.  As you've touched on, a little bit more openness to free enterprise and the economic growth that would result could help to bring a level of healthy re-urbanization back to the region and specifically to Cleveland proper.  It's no secret for instance that the second Amazon HQ was never going to go to any city without at least a reasonable level of transit service.  (Nor one in which it was explicitly made to feel unwelcome, for whatever reason.)  Many medium- to largish companies likewise recognize the absolutely vital nature of transit to a healthy city and a healthy region.  Especially in the tech space.  Millenials have shown great willingness to re-colonize formerly troubled and even largely abandoned urban neighborhoods that are or at least potentially could be well-served by transit.  The trick would be to find a way to keep them as they grow older, have families, and seek the best possible schools and safest possible communities for their offspring.  That means that not only economic opportunity, but also safe communities, with safe and high quality schools, are must.  They could be persuaded to live without acres and acres of lawns that have to be mowed, driveways that have to be plowed, etc., as evidenced by basically every single city in the world outside of the U.S. and Canada.  But they are not going to compromise, nor should they, on their kids having a safe and healthy life with a promising future.  So I believe all these things need to be considered.  The problem of restoring healthy transit to our region is intertwined with that of how to build more dense, walkable and urban neighborhoods, but that are safe, have good to excellent schools, and so forth.  In the city and inner suburbs at the very least.  (It can be done elsewhere as well, but that's a bigger challenge and one with diminishing returns.)  We might need to learn from our own past, as well as our peers elsewhere in the world, for ideas on how to make it work.

Edited July 18, 20195 yr by jtadams

The rigid race-based segregation of a couple generations ago has largely disappeared, at least in terms of housing and job markets.  But barriers to upward mobility in general, and things that can cause rapid downward mobility (healthcare expenses, drug abuse and drug-related crimes, divorce/abandonment, etc.), have significantly worsened during that time.  While I don't like to use the term "privilege," as it is inherently prejudicial and divisive, it is simply a reality that we do not all start at the same place in life.  But, rather than to place barriers in the path to success for anyone, I would rather understand and eliminate as many of those barriers as possible, especially but not necessarily exclusively those that disproportionately impact poor and minority people.  Lousy transit happens to be one of those barriers.  The inner city where poor and minority people disproportionately lived in the past have what look on paper like decent transit options.  But consider that to use them, one must walk through dangerous neighborhoods, then wait at a stop in a dangerous neighborhood for an unpredictable and potentially long period of time.  Then, probably transfer in another dangerous neighborhood; lather, rinse, repeat.  Possibly miss a connection that only happens every hour or worse; possibly lose job as a result.  Furthermore, many poor and minority people have now migrated to the suburbs and beyond, where the safety issue is typically less of an issue, but low population density makes efficient transit much harder to provide.  Either way they suffer limited access to jobs, fresh food, healthcare, social services, and the like.  Keeping the de facto, largely race-based caste system intact, potentially for generations to come.  Transit is really key to helping to break this cycle.  IMO, to have a healthy city with decent opportunities for all, you need at least three things that are non-negotiable.  (a) Safe streets.  (b) Safe and effective schools.  (c) Good transit options, that go where people live as well as where they work, learn, shop, heal, play, and worship.

I think this is a point that resident transit-expert KJP makes frequently -- RTA needs a real estate division to actively acquire and develop land near transit lines.  That may be the only way RTA becomes more self-sufficient given the state and federal reluctance to support mass transit alternatives.

28 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

The real estate is right there, the factory (empty) is right there, the city already owns it (e.g. Warner and Swasey factory).  The city needs needs to spend the $ to remediate it and then give it away to AC/Delco to make shock absorbers.  The public needs to swallow hard and accept the fact that we are going to have to subsidize companies to provide jobs for poor people on existing transit infrastructure.  The first step the new GM could make is to have a "summit meeting" with Mayor Prosperity on this issue.

 

I don't think Warner Swasey would work for a modern manufacturing facility.   They need wide-open flat floors with plenty of space to move trucks around outside.   It would, however, make for a great TOD housing complex! 

An old-fashioned manufacturing plant is non-competitive, unless you're planning on paying your workers sweatshop wages.

43 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

Sweatshop wages are fine.  It is better than no wages like 40% of black men in the city of Cleveland have.   As I said, once people have developed a work history, and work discipline they can move up from there.

 

That is an economically valid observation.  But it runs smack into a political minefield, for a reason that makes even me feel excessively cynical and negative.  We have one political party that sells itself to the disadvantaged by dangling handouts in front of them, and another which sells itself to lower-middle-class white people by trying to make them scared of eeevil brown and black people.  Prosperity for the poor and minority community therefore upsets the balance of political power.  Both parties profit from poverty and despair.  It's a fact, I blame both sides, and I don't pretend to have a great solution. 

On 7/19/2019 at 12:55 PM, Terdolph said:

Sweatshop wages are fine.  It is better than no wages like 40% of black men in the city of Cleveland have.   As I said, once people have developed a work history, and work discipline they can move up from there.

 

On 7/19/2019 at 1:43 PM, jtadams said:

 

That is an economically valid observation.  But it runs smack into a political minefield, for a reason that makes even me feel excessively cynical and negative.  We have one political party that sells itself to the disadvantaged by dangling handouts in front of them, and another which sells itself to lower-middle-class white people by trying to make them scared of eeevil brown and black people.  Prosperity for the poor and minority community therefore upsets the balance of political power.  Both parties profit from poverty and despair.  It's a fact, I blame both sides, and I don't pretend to have a great solution. 

 

No, it is not an “economically valid observation” that “sweatshop wages are fine”. People that work low wage jobs are overwhelmingly not able to get out of that income bracket. It is incredibly difficult to develop a skill set that leads one to a path of prosperity when you are struggling just to make ends meet. 

 

I’m fully onboard with taxpayer subsidized employment in economically disadvantaged areas, which I think is what @Terdolph is advocating for. But they have to be living wage jobs or they will never accomplish the purpose of improving people’s economic opportunities. 

 

To to bring it back to GCRTA, another way of achieving this goal would be a proper commuter rail from Cleveland to Solon. This would connect a whole bunch of people in poor neighborhoods, a substantial percentage of whom do not have access to cars, to decent paying manufacturing jobs in Solon. And a commuter rail line to Lake County could do the same for manufacturing jobs in Mentor. And of course both would well serve traditional commuters. 

Non-living wage jobs = the government subsidizing the employees who qualify for Medicaid, SSI and other assistance. So whoopie doo, society is subsidizing the employer who is so generously paying $14,000 a year after taxes to an employee. You've got to tie in minimum wage jobs to cost of living adjustments regionally, or it's a meaningless number.

 

As for your criminals example, the reality is a lot will return to crime since these minimum or near minimum wage jobs pay so little and there are a complete lack of opportunities for employment growth once you have a record. And criminal recidivism is a HELL of a lot more costly then society mandating a few extra dollars to get to living wage conditions  (though how $15/hr an hour is a living wage is beyond me). 

 

The way everything is set up now just isn't working..

Edited July 21, 20195 yr by TBideon

On 7/17/2019 at 7:58 AM, jtadams said:

How depressing, yet undeniably true.  But, acknowledging the present realities including that our society deems transit to be a government rather than a private sector responsibility, and one that serves primarily the politically powerless, does there yet remain any realistic hope for meaningful change?  And/or (and these possibilities are not mutually exclusive) is it time to start challenging these deeply seated, yet flawed assumptions?

 

It's a government responsibility because government subsidizes it, to the point that the private sector usually can't compete.  I've said for a long time that mass transit need not be public transit, and SF's Google buses demonstrate this.  

 

But other issues spring up at that point.

49 minutes ago, Terdolph said:

I really hate to respond to this but I have to.  People like you, and people who think like you are the problem. That is why in some demographics we have an unemployment rate approaching 50%.

 

Thanks.

 

“People like you, and people who think like you are the problem” says the guy who always whines that the forum isn’t welcoming. 

Lol, hey, I'm convinced.

You don't have to like economic reality in order to acknowledge it and to try to find realistic solutions that make things better.

 

If you try to force employers to pay more than employee's work is worth, TO THEM, you will chase away the vast majority of those who might otherwise employ lower-skilled workers.

 

 

Similar to the economic arguments against banning slavery, prohibiting child labor, and enacting minimum wage laws. Raising wages = economic catastrophe has always been a boogeyman argued within the conservative race-to-the-bottom mentality. It's so draining and wrong. 

Edited July 22, 20195 yr by TBideon

8 hours ago, jtadams said:

You don't have to like economic reality in order to acknowledge it and to try to find realistic solutions that make things better.

 

If you try to force employers to pay more than employee's work is worth, TO THEM, you will chase away the vast majority of those who might otherwise employ lower-skilled workers.

 

 

 

I wholeheartedly disagree with this.  As TBideon mentioned, this argument can be used to support any exploitative labor practice.  We can argue what a fair minimum wage is, but your argument could be used to argue for no minimum wage, safety laws, child labor laws, etc.  The key is that these laws need to be enacted at the federal level, so employers can't run to the next state to dodge them.  (The same thing applies to employers running to foreign countries that may have more lax regulations that we don't agree with, but this is what we use things like tariffs to compensate for.)

Edited July 22, 20195 yr by jam40jeff

Just now, Terdolph said:

We are way off topic.  Where can we discuss this?

 

Honestly, I'd just as soon not.  People whose world view is based on envy,  control, lust for power, elitism, and the ingrained belief that they know better than anyone else, rather than the rule of law and the inalienable rights of all people, rarely respond positively to discussion.  They just get angry, and frankly they make me more than a bit angry as well.  Possibly because they remind me of a much (decades) earlier version of myself.  Either they will mature into a world view compatible with reality, or they won't, and I've never known myself to have made the least bit of difference in that regard, in either direction.  There are plenty of folks here *far* to the left of me who still manage to retain some grip on basic decency, morality, and common sense.  Arguably, at times, better than my own.  But a few of the recent participants in this conversation have not, and as far as I'm concerned, they can have this discussion with someone else.  I'm here to talk about how to make things better.  Not to hate on and punish those who are successful and whose success could, if only it were allowed to, help empower others to succeed as well.  (The evil of which even the furthest-left of liberals used to acknowledge, and, I am sincerely hoping, some still do.

5 minutes ago, jtadams said:

 

Honestly, I'd just as soon not.  People whose world view is based on envy,  control, lust for power, elitism, and the ingrained belief that they know better than anyone else, rather than the rule of law and the inalienable rights of all people, rarely respond positively to discussion.  They just get angry, and frankly they make me more than a bit angry as well.  Possibly because they remind me of a much (decades) earlier version of myself.  Either they will mature into a world view compatible with reality, or they won't, and I've never known myself to have made the least bit of difference in that regard, in either direction.  There are plenty of folks here *far* to the left of me who still manage to retain some grip on basic decency, morality, and common sense.  Arguably, at times, better than my own.  But a few of the recent participants in this conversation have not, and as far as I'm concerned, they can have this discussion with someone else.  I'm here to talk about how to make things better.  Not to hate on and punish those who are successful and whose success could, if only it were allowed to, help empower others to succeed as well.  (The evil of which even the furthest-left of liberals used to acknowledge, and, I am sincerely hoping, some still do.

 

Here I thought we were having a decent discussion about this.  I'm not sure who you're referring to, but I re-read the rest of this page and if someone in this discussion doesn't have "some grip on basic decency, morality, and common sense," I surely missed those posts.

My point isn't to name names or to place blame.  If there's anything I'm trying to say here it's really that what I consider to be the extreme far left, and what it surely considers to be extreme far-right (me), have so little in common that fruitful, non-argumentative discussion tends to be impossible.  In many cases, an understanding of the vital role of public transit does happen to be one of those few points of common ground.  But, clearly, not always.  If I have over-reacted or mischaracterized the viewpoints of anyone here, I do want to apologize, though it still goes to evidence that once we've veered away from the topic of transit, there may not be enough common ground left for fruitful discussion.

1 minute ago, jtadams said:

My point isn't to name names or to place blame.  If there's anything I'm trying to say here it's really that what I consider to be the extreme far left, and what it surely considers to be extreme far-right (me), have so little in common that fruitful, non-argumentative discussion tends to be impossible.  In many cases, an understanding of the vital role of public transit does happen to be one of those few points of common ground.  But, clearly, not always.  If I have over-reacted or mischaracterized the viewpoints of anyone here, I do want to apologize, though it still goes to evidence that once we've veered away from the topic of transit, there may not be enough common ground left for fruitful discussion.

 

If you want to see fruitless discussion between the far ends of the political spectrum, head over to the Trump thread.  You'll then appreciate this discussion more! ?

 

Seriously, though, I think the viewpoints presented in the discussion (at least on this page) were fairly "moderate left" and "moderate right."  But you're right, they probably don't belong in a transit thread.

Compared to what I can imagine goes on there, I'm sure this is a model of civility and decorum, but, nevertheless, I'd like to aspire to better than that.  ?

Edited July 26, 20195 yr by KJP