44 minutes ago, tdZ said:

Even HealthLine are rarely on-time these days. I live reasonably close to Euclid Ave and work in Tower City so HL is near perfect in terms of alignment. But I have been walking 35-40 min to and from work these days because it takes almost as long, and sometimes longer, to use HL. 

 

Case in point.  We were originally supposed to get rail along Euclid (under, over, whatever).  That changed to "bus rapid transit."  That changed to a glorified #6 bus because no signal prioritization and no advance fare collection (not to mention not nearly enough vehicles to handle peak flow).  Then the vehicles reached the end of their useful life and as far as I know have not been replaced.  So now, arguably, worse than when we had both the #6, and express service the whole length of Euclid (7, 9, 28, and 32). Most of this is not RTA's fault.  But it still deters people who, in any city with reasonable transit, would be using transit.  People such as you and me.  People who have a choice, but whose time is valuable, and most of whom will choose transit if they can, but ONLY if they can do so without it costing them hours per day.  This is not reasonable, unless you want RTA to serve only the transit-dependent, and, unfortunately, the transit-dependent do not tend to be awash in political capital or other resources with which they might otherwise bargain for more funding.  I fully believe that they should be the priority, if the system cannot serve both them and those with a choice.  But a reasonable transit system would offer a reasonable choice for most people who live and/or work in the city or the more densely populated inner suburbs. 

No way to know.  I want to give her the benefit of any doubt.  The best scenario I can conceive is that she was pulled aside after that tirade and instructed to withhold further comment on the rail system until she learns what she is talking about.  The worst is that things are exactly as they appear to be: that a GM was hired not to save our transit system but to preside over its demise.  I'm hoping for the former. 

From last month.....

 

We need to stop treating light rail like its a precious heirloom

https://www.gcbl.org/blog/2019/12/we-need-to-stop-treating-light-rail-like-its-a-precious-heirloom

I think that's sort of a strange article, and I don't know what he's suggesting exactly.  Where in the suburbs (really just Shaker Heights) would any real appreciable amount of TOD development go along the current light rail lines?  Is he saying that he thinks it would be financially feasible to buy out, demolish, and redevelop high end housing?  Is he saying they should be extended to new development opportunities further out in Beachwood (he mentions that suburb specifically)?  Where would those opportunities be?  I would think that the most important TOD we could do along the light rail lines would be along the stretch from Shaker Square to Downtown, where there is the greatest frequency of trains and the most redevelopable land.

I looked through this thread and did not see anything referencing the below pic, please forgive me if i missed it.

 

Does anyone have an idea of how much it would cost to expand the rail lines to the setup below(could you give the cost to make all expansions an underground subway compared to the cost for expansion of our current setup along with raised tracks like Chicago where needed)??

 

Also, does anyone know if this model map has been presented to the new RTA CEO/GM at any of the public meetings she's attended?

 

I think this below map would be a tremendous asset to the city if RTA leadership could get creative to acquire funding from the state and federal transportation funds(without raising current taxes) to see this come to fruition.

 

1 hour ago, NR said:

I looked through this thread and did not see anything referencing the below pic, please forgive me if i missed it.

 

Does anyone have an idea of how much it would cost to expand the rail lines to the setup below(could you give the cost to make all expansions an underground subway compared to the cost for expansion of our current setup along with raised tracks like Chicago where needed)??

 

Also, does anyone know if this model map has been presented to the new RTA CEO/GM at any of the public meetings she's attended?

 

I think this below map would be a tremendous asset to the city if RTA leadership could get creative to acquire funding from the state and federal transportation funds(without raising current taxes) to see this come to fruition.

 

 

Not happening. RTA has a $700+ million capital shortfall just to keep the existing system in a state of good repair and you want to add on to it? If you want this, then ask to have the county sales tax for transit increased by another half-cent to full-cent. Then, ask your state legislators to increase state funding for transit from the current $70 million per year (remember we just got it doubled earlier this year from $36 million per year) to about $500 million per year. Then, get a president who isn't telling the Federal Transit Administration to withhold construction funds from New Starts rail projects because he can't get Congress to outright kill the FTA. Then, get some real Northeast Ohio representatives with clout in Congress to change the laws so that older metro areas with older rail systems like ours should get more funding to rebuild and expand those rail systems.

 

In other words, if you want a real rail system, move to a city/state/country that shares your values because you don't live in that city/state/country now and unless you're a billionaire, you're not going to succeed in moving the political needle one iota in an oligarchy.

What is likely to happen in Cleveland/Shaker Heights? The Breda rail cars are probably going to start failing inspections before RTA comes up with enough money to replace them.....

 

SEPTA taking Girard Ave. trolley off the rails; 78% of fleet can’t pass inspection

https://whyy.org/articles/septa-taking-girard-ave-trolley-off-the-rails-78-of-fleet-cant-pass-inspection/

RTA Takes Steps to Replace Rail Cars

Cleveland RTA takes steps to replace rail cars

 

CLEVELAND (WJW)-- RTA officials say they’ve taken the first steps toward bringing in dozens of new rail cars, which are badly needed to keep the rapid trains running.

The RTA board started the process on Tuesday to bring in 34 new cars. The agency has pieced together funding from ODOT, the local government group known as NOACA, and more.

I compiled the 2018 and 2019 ridership statistics up to November (December isn't out yet).

HR=heavy rail

MB=bus

RB=bus rapid transit

LR=light rail

Pretty disappointing overall. Part of the heavy rail loss of ridership can be attributed to the excessive amount of track work we had this past year. The one other positive statistic worth pointing out is the BRT (HealthLine) ridership stats. While ridership was lower for the first half of 2019, the later months of 2019 actually saw much higher ridership than 2018. 

Something really needs to be done and quickly. 

On 12/20/2019 at 3:28 PM, jtadams said:

I don't think it's a serious question, unless you are utterly unfamiliar with the area, and/or looking to pick a fight.  But just on the off chance that it is.  I lived in North Collinwood about half my life.  There's not a single square inch of it I'd recommend anyone go at night if they didn't have to.  There are pockets of relative safety during the day (E. 185, E. 200, Waterloo Arts district, probably Lakeshore at least east of 156th).  But then we get south of there, to South Collinwood, then East Cleveland.  Except for Windermere station, and not even there too late at night, I would not want to change buses ANYWHERE south of the freeway.  But the reimagined systems pretend that I or any other person with a choice actually would.  Leaving completely aside that even today, the trip from Shoregate to downtown, anytime the 39 doesn't run, is about 90 minutes.  That is with the 30 from start to end, then Red Line the rest of the way.  Now, there isn't even that connection.  The truly intrepid might change buses on St. Clair or Euclid.  The rest, E. 105/Quincy.  Turning it into a 2 hour trip.  So the reimagined routes still IMO need a bit of re-reimagining in order to work.  I get that it's not a proposal per se, but just an idea of what could be done if we wanted to maximize ridership without completely eliminating service in less densely populated areas.  But it needs work.

 

As I live less than 100 feet from Lakeshore and E. 156th,  I'll definitely concur with this.  Anything south of the freeway is pushing it.   You might be able to go a little further west on Lakeshore.

I grew up very near there also (about 2 blocks).  The corner of Lakeshore/E.152/Macauley seems about as far west as one can safely go.  A guy was shot a few years ago, at the westbound 30/39 bus stop on that corner, for no apparent reason at all.  He was just on his way to work.

1 hour ago, tykaps said:

I compiled the 2018 and 2019 ridership statistics up to November (December isn't out yet).

HR=heavy rail

MB=bus

RB=bus rapid transit

LR=light rail

Pretty disappointing overall. Part of the heavy rail loss of ridership can be attributed to the excessive amount of track work we had this past year. The one other positive statistic worth pointing out is the BRT (HealthLine) ridership stats. While ridership was lower for the first half of 2019, the later months of 2019 actually saw much higher ridership than 2018. 

Something really needs to be done and quickly. 

 

Thanks for this, shocking but not unexpected about declining ridership, I'd like to look at this on more of a granular level aka what routes saw jumps and losses, but I'd guess that's RTA/NOACA specific information. FWIW I believe they group in the MetroHealth Line (51-A-B-C) with BRT for some reason. Not sure if your stats in the background noted this.

59 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Not sure if your stats in the background noted this.

There was no specification of if they counted it as BRT but I'm guessing not since this was federal data and the 51ABC doesn't count as BRT by most definitions.

On 1/6/2020 at 1:50 PM, KJP said:

 

Just saw this, @jawn. My understanding was that the property acquisition was for a piece of a parcel on East 79th, just south of the current station entrance, to move the entrance southward. Is that not correct?

@KJP It's from the where the red and blue-green lines split to 105 & Quincy.

Going back to RTA buying 34 Heavy Rail cars, I've never been through this process before. They said in the story we won't see the new cars for 3-4 years but will we see the actual model on display sooner?

On 1/23/2020 at 1:47 PM, tykaps said:

There was no specification of if they counted it as BRT but I'm guessing not since this was federal data and the 51ABC doesn't count as BRT by most definitions.

I think their BRT stats are only for HealthLine. According to 2018 NTD there were 13 vehicles operated in maximum service for their BRT mode, about the numbers they need to maintain schedule on HealthLine during peak hours.

On 1/25/2020 at 11:08 AM, MyPhoneDead said:

Going back to RTA buying 34 Heavy Rail cars, I've never been through this process before. They said in the story we won't see the new cars for 3-4 years but will we see the actual model on display sooner?

 

Probably, but only because they will likely buy an off-the-shelf railcar. The one I've heard mentioned most often is the new railcar fleet in Miami.

RTA is working very hard to keep this quiet....

 

 

13 hours ago, KJP said:

 

Probably, but only because they will likely buy an off-the-shelf railcar. The one I've heard mentioned most often is the new railcar fleet in Miami.

This is the off-the-shelf railcar you are referring to? Essentially what we see here is what we'll get in Cleveland?

Yes, could be. 

 

BTW, it was more than "made contact." The two trains' drivers went to the hospital. I'm told one of the trains had its side crumpled inward and that train will probably have to be scrapped. It's unfortunate that the ghost of Joe Calabrese's hide/obfuscate brand of PR remains alive at RTA....

 

 

Granted I don't know exactly how the switches work, but I can see this as a side effect of the train operators having to stop and manually switch the tracks each time they are going to go thru that junction. I don't want to say this was down to an operator, but these kinds of accidents are definitely made more possible with the possibility of human error. Automate that switch, and you eliminate the possibility for human error.

 

Also, I can certainly attest that Friday night my Blue Line train had to sit there and wait close to 5mins for the operator to get the verbal authorization to proceed. She was apologizing to us for the delay, but it was embarrassing and just another added on delay. That added 5mins completely takes away any time bonus I have in taking the train downtown instead of driving. If its a night without a major event, and thus cheap/free parking, then I would logically have no reason to even take the train anymore.

4 hours ago, PoshSteve said:

Also, I can certainly attest that Friday night my Blue Line train had to sit there and wait close to 5mins for the operator to get the verbal authorization to proceed.

 

 Accidents happen.   Review and training should be conducted, but this utterly ridiculous.  Trains have operated through there for the past 100 years.   If two drivers totaled their buses at the same intersection, would they have to wait for verbal authorization?  

A five-minute delay is completely normal in cities with public transportation, specifically rail, regardless of the reason. Hell, these days it's even optimal on the MTA. Stuff happens. 

On 2/2/2020 at 4:57 PM, TBideon said:

A five-minute delay is completely normal in cities with public transportation, specifically rail, regardless of the reason. Hell, these days it's even optimal on the MTA. Stuff happens. 

 

Yes, understandable and not a problem. But adding 5mins to every trip for a reason like this is not.

When the unit cost of driving is cheaper than taking transit and the travel time of transit is significantly longer than driving, a transit system is going to lose its discretionary riders. So RTA has lost half of its ridership.

Exactly my point.  If you want discretionary riders, you have to aim for those for whom transit is a reasonable alternative, which means making it a reasonable alternative for them.

On 2/2/2020 at 4:57 PM, TBideon said:

A five-minute delay is completely normal in cities with public transportation, specifically rail, regardless of the reason. Hell, these days it's even optimal on the MTA. Stuff happens. 

 

Other cultures (e.g,. Japan), manage to make their trains run on time.  But I have to concede KJP's point that we don't live in a culture whose values align well with transit at all, much less great transit.  It's accepted in cities as a necessary evil, but not as an inherent part of what makes cities thrive and grow and add value to the larger culture of which they are a part.  And MTA has some huge challenges of its own.  It has more resources, but much greater needs as well.  In fact, many of the same needs as our system, *plus* the need to replace antiquated signaling systems, some of them original, which force the tradeoff between running very slowly versus running at normal speeds but with unacceptable risks of derailments and crashes. 

 

18 hours ago, KJP said:

When the unit cost of driving is cheaper than taking transit and the travel time of transit is significantly longer than driving, a transit system is going to lose its discretionary riders. So RTA has lost half of its ridership.

I posted about it on twitter as I was stuck on a "BRT" Metroline bus (51B) a while back (idk how they were able to call that BRT but I digress), and thought this same thing. 

 

It takes me roughly 30 minutes to ride my bike and change, 35-40ish+ for the bus (assuming you get it, otherwise it's a half hour wait), and driving takes 20-25 mins after parking. I purchase a bus pass through work and rarely is it worth it tbh, even at a reduced rate. I can't imagine not getting some discount and continuing to ride it over driving. For reference I live in Old Brooklyn, about a 6 mile straight shot into town.

 

Not only to busses need dedicated lanes and priority, but they also need respect from drivers - one thing I love about watching public transit in other places (Montreal in particular in this case), is how drivers respect busses and realize they need to merge (and will merge), the busses even have something on the back letting people know that.

15 minutes ago, GISguy said:

I posted about it on twitter as I was stuck on a "BRT" Metroline bus (51B) a while back (idk how they were able to call that BRT but I digress), and thought this same thing. 

 

It takes me roughly 30 minutes to ride my bike and change, 35-40ish+ for the bus (assuming you get it, otherwise it's a half hour wait), and driving takes 20-25 mins after parking. I purchase a bus pass through work and rarely is it worth it tbh, even at a reduced rate. I can't imagine not getting some discount and continuing to ride it over driving. For reference I live in Old Brooklyn, about a 6 mile straight shot into town.

 

Not only to busses need dedicated lanes and priority, but they also need respect from drivers - one thing I love about watching public transit in other places (Montreal in particular in this case), is how drivers respect busses and realize they need to merge (and will merge), the busses even have something on the back letting people know that.

 

I respect that bus drivers' and passengers' time is valuable, just as anyone else's, so if at all possible, I will allow buses to go ahead of me, even if I have right of way.  But it would be nice if that courtesy were more consistently reciprocated.  Most bus drivers are professional, safe, and courteous, but there remains a small minority who do things like going 5-10mph when they're ahead of schedule, creating a dangerous line of traffic behind them; pull diagonally into bus stops, blocking several lanes unnecessarily; and do all manner of other things so dangerous as to lead me to believe they are unaware of how much damage 30,000 pounds of out-of-control vehicle can do to a typical car, much less a cyclist or a pedestrian. 

 

53 minutes ago, jtadams said:

 

I respect that bus drivers' and passengers' time is valuable, just as anyone else's, so if at all possible, I will allow buses to go ahead of me, even if I have right of way.  But it would be nice if that courtesy were more consistently reciprocated.  Most bus drivers are professional, safe, and courteous, but there remains a small minority who do things like going 5-10mph when they're ahead of schedule, creating a dangerous line of traffic behind them; pull diagonally into bus stops, blocking several lanes unnecessarily; and do all manner of other things so dangerous as to lead me to believe they are unaware of how much damage 30,000 pounds of out-of-control vehicle can do to a typical car, much less a cyclist or a pedestrian. 

 

 

I've thankfully found bus drivers to be particularly considerate to me as a cyclist (especially downtown, where the useless sharrows on Superior are sort of just crammed in to the same space as the buses).

32 minutes ago, jws said:

 

I've thankfully found bus drivers to be particularly considerate to me as a cyclist (especially downtown, where the useless sharrows on Superior are sort of just crammed in to the same space as the buses).

They may be honk happy, but it is nice to know they're coming up behind you. I've generally had a good experience too, but that doesn't mean the occasional driver doesn't buzz you on occasion. When I was in Erie, I knew an experienced city cyclist who got clipped by a bus mirror and afterwards I think they updated some training procedures. If I'm not mistaken part of the training involved bus drivers being on a bike and getting passed by a bus in order to understand how spooky and dangerous an experience can be. It'd be nice if some RTA drivers could go through something similar.

Greater Cleveland RTA considers West 25th Street bus line similar to Euclid Avenue’s Healthline

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/02/greater-cleveland-rta-considers-west-25th-street-bus-line-similar-to-euclid-avenues-healthline.html

Not a terrible idea, except that we learned or at least should have learned from the HealthLine experience that true BRT is not possible in the current economic/political climate.  Deprived of off-vehicle fare collection and signal prioritization, and with vehicles nearing the end of their useful life, the HealthLine no longer comes close to offering a true BRT experience.  Mostly not RTA's fault; these decisions were largely made by others.  Nonetheless, I don't see a reason to hope for anything substantially better on West 25th, unless some changes to the aforementioned economic and political climate happen first.  And I don't know that it makes sense to invest tens of millions of dollars into what will likely amount to, at best, a marginal improvement over the service we have now.  Better IMO to buy more cars for our rail system, while we still have it.

1 hour ago, jtadams said:

Not a terrible idea, except that we learned or at least should have learned from the HealthLine experience that true BRT is not possible in the current economic/political climate.  

The article states that federal funding wouldn't be available unless it met certain efficiency guidelines including traffic signal priority. 

 

If they could do off-vehicle fare collection and signal prioritization along West 25th, then why not on Euclid, which is by far the more important, busy, and higher-profile corridor of the two? 

Quote

RTA trustees Georgine Welo and Karen Moss on Tuesday raised concerns about how RTA would secure access to a dedicated bus lane along what is an already congested route.

“Between Lorain and Detroit, there are buildings up close to the sidewalks, and the sidewalks can’t be made smaller,” Moss said. “I’m having a hard time understanding how we would ever get past that point because it is so congested.”

 

You're on the RTA board of trusties and claim existing automobile congestion as a  deterrent to implementing a mass transit solution. I thought that's the very reason you would explore something like this. ?

Edited February 5, 20205 yr by viscomi

31 minutes ago, viscomi said:

 

You're on the RTA board of trusties and claim existing automobile congestion as a  deterrent to implementing a mass transit solution. I thought that's the very reason you would explore something like this. ?

I actually get their point, but if you eliminate the on street parking there you might be able to make it work. It’s kind of pointless on that stretch (imo) anyway.

19 minutes ago, Enginerd said:

actually get their point, but if you eliminate the on street parking there you might be able to make it work. It’s kind of pointless on that stretch (imo) anyway.

 

Right. If you want a dedicated transit lane you'll have to get rid of the on street parking here. If not, then you will what you have now. Personally, I think it makes sense for dedicated transit lane because not only do you have the 25th line but also, what 4 other lines that use this corridor. Considering that though, it couldn't be designed exactly like the healthline is.

21 hours ago, freefourur said:

Greater Cleveland RTA considers West 25th Street bus line similar to Euclid Avenue’s Healthline

 

https://www.cleveland.com/news/2020/02/greater-cleveland-rta-considers-west-25th-street-bus-line-similar-to-euclid-avenues-healthline.html

 

I would love to see a study on a BRT line from university circle down Cedar to Beachwood.

Not tremendously high density.  I can think of a lot of other corridors that would IMO be better candidates.  Perfect world, we'd have BRT on every artery including freeway medians.  The one we actually have?  We'll be lucky to get true BRT even on the one corridor where we did once have BRT.

I'd love to see BRT on all of RTA's priority corridors, and then some. 

I think RTA should focus on fixing the sinking ship of the Healthline before investing $40 million into BRT Lite at best. Perfect the true BRT that you have now instead of focusing elsewhere. Implementation of payment systems that utilize Google Pay and Apple Pay would be a great start. Allow the RTA App to be compatible with those payment systems to start. Implement the scanners that they have at the Tower City station to serve as verification of payment. Heck hiring a second person to sit on the other half of the bus to serve as a someone to verify where the front bus driver can't would go a long way, similar to the Tower City Station. There are so many examples out there. Focus on that first, use the money they are searching for on West 25th for studies to improve the POP System on the HL and then buy the proper technology. 

 

ALSO REPLACE THE HEALTHLINE BUSES! How is something that is the jewel of the RTA system and was once a marketing tool allowed to have such run down buses? Those buses while still running look absolutely awful. Running 24/7 for 12 years has taken its toll. Use the money for that as well.

Edited February 5, 20205 yr by MyPhoneDead
I wasn't done ranting

Railcar replacement is probably even more crucial at this juncture - the Red Line won't survive without it - but otherwise, I agree completely.

 

 

4 minutes ago, jtadams said:

Railcar replacement is probably even more crucial at this juncture - the Red Line won't survive without it - but otherwise, I agree completely.

 

 

Well we secured 34 rail cars recently but I agree, I'm just tired of looking at those run down buses.

2 hours ago, jtadams said:

Not tremendously high density.  I can think of a lot of other corridors that would IMO be better candidates.  Perfect world, we'd have BRT on every artery including freeway medians.  The one we actually have?  We'll be lucky to get true BRT even on the one corridor where we did once have BRT.

 

Maybe not, but density is increasing on that corridor -- Top of the Hill in Cleveland Heights, further down the line Cedar-Lee-Meadowbrook will add density, UH is building at Cedar-Taylor and density is increasing at Cedar-Warrensville -- it will take a while to do the planning study and get each of the cities along the way on board, so why not start and work with the cities/county/NOACA to provide incentives to further density as a precondition for construction.

 

Freeway medians are the definition of low density, that would be the last place to put BRT.

The main complaint er one of them about CH is how hard it is to get places, brt (even just to the redline) would help a ton with that stigma. Honestly less vehicle traffic is a reason I'd consider moving there lol.

 

Although w25/Pearl corridor is going to light up in the next handful of years.

On 2/5/2020 at 4:08 PM, MyPhoneDead said:

Well we secured 34 rail cars recently but I agree, I'm just tired of looking at those run down buses.

 

Wait, what? No rail cars have been secured.

I assumed he meant funding for 34 new cars.  I think we do have that, and it's a step in the right direction.  But, in my understanding, only about half what's needed to replace the Red Line fleet.  We still need the rest, plus, within about 5-10 years, the Blue/Green Line fleet will be in a similar condition.

1 hour ago, jtadams said:

I assumed he meant funding for 34 new cars.  I think we do have that, and it's a step in the right direction.  But, in my understanding, only about half what's needed to replace the Red Line fleet.  We still need the rest, plus, within about 5-10 years, the Blue/Green Line fleet will be in a similar condition.

This