well fine then!

 

Trains are back on schedule  :wink:

 

26 injured in Cleveland RTA train fire; rapid lines back in service

     

 

CLEVELAND -- RTA says all rapid train lines are back in service following a train fire.  Twenty-six passengers were taken to the hospital for injuries.  Most of the riders were being treated for burns and smoke inhalation.

 

 

RTA says it hopes to have the rapid trains back on time by mid-afternoon and back on schedule well before the afternoon rush hour.

 

 

http://www.wkyc.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=143014&catid=45

 

*ALERT*

 

The W.25th stop will be closed for a week:

 

http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/news/local_news/cleveland_metro/rta-station-closes-for-week-long-construction-project

Good lord... how dysfunctional can it get?!?

 

RTA may fine youths who do not pay to ride the HealthLine or Red Line rapid

Published: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 7:16 PM    Updated: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 7:19 PM

Karen Farkas, The Plain Dealer

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- During last month alone, thousands of passengers rode RTA's HealthLine and the Red Line rapid for free -- and it wasn't a promotional deal. The riders -- many of them youth -- boarded without paying a cent. These fare evaders are becoming a headache for the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority.

 

More at: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010/08/rta_may_fine_juveniles_who_do.html

 

This quote astonishes me:

"General Manager Joe Calabrese said there is "a real hole" in the current system. There is absolutely zero way to enforce fare collections (of juveniles) and it is unfair to the other customers who do pay," Calabrese said at Tuesday's board meeting. "There is no incentive to make them pay."

Cute.  I guess they just closed their eyes and hoped the kids would never take a chance.

No wonder they struggle. If your head guy says stuff like this....you're doomed! "No way to enforce?" Utterly pathetic!

 

 

How could RTA have not planned for this?  An honor-based fare collection?  I've never heard of anything that silly.

How could RTA have not planned for this?  An honor-based fare collection?  I've never heard of anything that silly.

 

This happens in other cities as well.  I'm not saying that as an apologist, but to say it's not just a Cleveland RTA issues.

 

However for the GM to come out and say they cant fight this is a PR nightmare.  I say arrest the kids, fine the hell out of them and send a message!

In brighter news, more people may start riding now since they know you can ride for free.  You really think minors are the only ones who lie, cheat and steal?

How could RTA have not planned for this? An honor-based fare collection? I've never heard of anything that silly.

 

Um, it's a very common fare collection system especially for rail and BRT.

^Agreed; I'm as appalled by Calabrese's comment as anyone, and obviously someone has screwed up royally but the honor-based system is widely used.

Frankly, this is why the RTA is what it is.  Poor leadership.  I could have pointed this out years ago...it was just about the first thing I noticed when I started using the RTA.

Wow, I never knew honor based systems were so prevalent.

How are they enforced, if at all, in other cities

How could RTA have not planned for this? An honor-based fare collection? I've never heard of anything that silly.

 

Can someone give a few examples of other cities that use honor-based fare collection?

In brighter news, more people may start riding now since they know you can ride for free.  You really think minors are the only ones who lie, cheat and steal?

 

Wow, I never knew honor based systems were so prevalent.

How are they enforced, if at all, in other cities

 

OK, this is turning a little too much into Cleveland.com here.  Did anyone actually read the article?  The kids aren't paying because the fare policy doesn't allow RTA police to enforce payment against minors- that's ridiculous, of course, but this is not in itself not a blanket failure of POP. And it means that Calabrese's quote isn't really ridiculous- it's completely true.  The ridiculous part is the non-enforcement policy for juveniles, which the article suggests will be changed soon, but which any one of us could have predicted would end badly.  I don't know if this goofy policy was management's fault or the board's doing.

Wow, I never knew honor based systems were so prevalent.

How are they enforced, if at all, in other cities

 

Pretty much the same as they are here in Cleveland.  A prime example is the NJ Light Rail.  It's an honor system.

 

The one thing I haven't seen in Cleveland is cops come on board and check for valid tickets.  I'm sure it's happened, I just haven't seen it yet.

Transit police do regularly come on board and check for valid tickets.  As the cars pull into the station where transit police are waiting to board, the youth depart via a different door, further away from them, and just wait for the next car to come where there are no police. The only way to check everyone, every time, is to have the police waiting at all transit stops and check everyone who gets on and off, which I said many pages ago.  But then that's not an "honor" system, and could be done by machines.

How could RTA have not planned for this? An honor-based fare collection? I've never heard of anything that silly.

 

Can someone give a few examples of other cities that use honor-based fare collection?

 

Isn't the proper term Proof of Payment (POP) fare collection system?  It sounds a little better then "honor-based".  And we've talked about how it's enforced.  Cop strolls onto the bus/train and asks to see everyone's receipt or fare card with the proper date/time stamped on it.

We've rehashed this many times, but I think I've finally come around.  I now think that implementing the pure POP system was a mistake.  I understand that RTA can't afford to put station agents in several of the underused stations, but it would have been swell if they could have installed modern "turnstyles" and usable ticket vending machines at every Red Line station but also did the verification patrols.  Which is what they do at Tower City now, I believe.  Then again, RTA wasn't even able to put out minimally acceptable vending machines, so they may not have been up to deploying new turnstyles.  I'm sure it would have cost a lot more too.

Although I can understand why many here are mentioning that this system is not solely used in Cleveland to address the "Woe-is-us.... and everyone else is perfect" factor...and I know that is not about excusing such a system....  But we need to start being more concerned with what goes on HERE and how to make it better, rather than laxing our expectations, for lack of a better way to put it..... just because it happens in other places.

 

Any fool could have seen this coming. Anyone who rides needs to be able to provide proof or purchase. Now...  Let's discuss how to implement such a plan seeing that RTA is always broke. (Hmmm..fair skipping cannot help that case) This should be the ensuing discussion from here on out and perhaps all the wonderful minds on here can come up with a viable remedy.

 

Btw..the "there is nothing we can do" pass off is unacceptable, period. (be it true at the moment or not) It is a statement that totally alleviates their responsibility to take responsibility, A.K.A....a "cop out!" There is ALWAYS something we can do. For starters, stress with conviction that your agency is doing all it can to solve this issue.....and also...why not consult other cities who have had the same problem and find out what they are doing, if anything, to curb or prevent this problem. If they are doing this, then good... But it needs to be made clear because a quote like that as another poster alluded to.... is like PR suicide. You are asking for it when a quote like this is printed... The Cleveland Dot Com peanut gallery will have a field day with such.

...why not consult other cities who have had the same problem and find out what they are doing, if anything, to curb or prevent this problem. If they are doing this, then good...

 

It's pretty clear what other agencies are doing.  From the article:

 

Nationally, other transit systems with proof-of-payment systems cite all fare evaders, regardless of age.

 

So yeah, I'd love to know the history of the non-enforcement policy for minors.  Because it was moronic.  And if it came from RTA brass, it's another highly visible lapse of judgment.  Would love to see some accountability in the wake of some of these horrible decisions.

 

Can someone give a few examples of other cities that use honor-based fare collection?

 

There's this really cool thing called Google, which I went to and spent about 10 seconds typing in "Proof of payment, transit systems" to find this:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof-of-payment

 

I may be different, but I usually ask questions only after I cannot find the information for myself. The truth is out there!

After riding local systems in Germany for a year, there are three things that make that system work better (just in my opinion):

 

1. Transit cops are in plain clothes. This makes a huge difference. They're just sitting or standing around until the doors close and then they pull out badges and ask for proof of payment without any opportunity to flee.

2. You get checked more frequently. It's not like it happened every time I was on a train, but it happened enough that it would be cheaper to get a monthly pass than to try to dodge them for a month straight. I'm not sure I could say that about riding in Cleveland at this point.

3. It was a true proof of purchase system. The only time I got checked upon boarding was on IC and ICE trains (Germany's much larger version of Amtrak). Local and regional trains were always proof-of-purchase, so I had that expectation on every trip. That's considerably less cumbersome than the current hybrid system in Cleveland, where I pay on entry to Blue/Green trains, buses and the HealthLine after 11 p.m., swipe cards on exiting a Red Line at Tower City and have more traditional POP systems on the Red Line (except for Tower City) and for the HealthLine. I know it's not THAT complicated, but particularly for out-of-towners or infrequent riders, it's confusing enough that someone could inadvertently become a fare dodger or that the confusion would decrease their satisfaction with the system.

I know it's not THAT complicated, but particularly for out-of-towners or infrequent riders, it's confusing enough that someone could inadvertently become a fare dodger or that the confusion would decrease their satisfaction with the system.

 

Particularly infuriating to me when the new system went in was that unvalidated passes expire after 2 hours. I see no good reason for this, especially since the machine seems to implicitly encourage a user to buy multiple passes at once. It took me about 4 trips to remember this.

In all my time riding trains and buses in Sydney over many years, I never witnessed anyone being able to get free rides. Transit police ask to see tickets. If you don't have one...you get off. If you are caught sneaking on, you will be arrested. I have seen it. Guess what? The problem is virtually non-existent. At least in plain sight. Transit police are always checking tickets. If transit police wore plain cloths and caught anyone trying to get on w/o paying.. They need to be arrested on sight. (zero tolerance) OR, if one cannot prove the purchase on the train...then they need to be asked to exit the vehicle. Sad to know that there are honest paying customers out there riding the bus with freeloaders who probably are causing other problems around town too or making the ride for peaceable riders, not so peaceful.  :|

I think it's a little overreaching to say that people who haven't paid their fares are causing problems, either on or off the bus/train. Quite often, people just simply forget to pay or, as has been too often the case, the machine is malfunctioning and they don't have time to walk to the next station. The latter has happened to me probably a dozen times over the past year.

I think it's a little overreaching to say that people who haven't paid their fares are causing problems, either on or off the bus/train. Quite often, people just simply forget to pay or, as has been too often the case, the machine is malfunctioning and they don't have time to walk to the next station. The latter has happened to me probably a dozen times over the past year.

 

To me that's a bigger problem than fare evasion.

I think it's a little overreaching to say that people who haven't paid their fares are causing problems, either on or off the bus/train. Quite often, people just simply forget to pay or, as has been too often the case, the machine is malfunctioning and they don't have time to walk to the next station. The latter has happened to me probably a dozen times over the past year.

 

To me that's a bigger problem than fare evasion.

 

You're supposed to pay on the vehicle in that case.  They should probably post signs at the stops telling people to do that.

...why not consult other cities who have had the same problem and find out what they are doing, if anything, to curb or prevent this problem. If they are doing this, then good...

 

It's pretty clear what other agencies are doing.  From the article:

 

Nationally, other transit systems with proof-of-payment systems cite all fare evaders, regardless of age.

 

So yeah, I'd love to know the history of the non-enforcement policy for minors.  Because it was moronic.  And if it came from RTA brass, it's another highly visible lapse of judgment.  Would love to see some accountability in the wake of some of these horrible decisions.

 

i'm pretty sure the article is missing some information.  rta planned to cite everyone after a warning or whatever, but after passing the legislation 2 years ago, it was found out somewhere along the way that the legislation didn't allow for citing minors (either a city or state ordinance problem).  now, they are trying to close that hole that at some point became a problem.  after they found out that they couldn't cite minors, they modified their minor policy and took non-paying minors off the train, back to school, or home or whatever.  but, in the end this isn't very efficient use of the fare enforcement officer's time, so now they are trying to re-introduce legislation that allows for citations so that the officers can remain in the system checking other fares.  at least this is my understanding.

 

also, it is a bit dangerous and erroneous imo to assume that most of the people riding haven't paid - regardless of age or destination.  by rta's own estimates only 2-4% of riders don't pay - so just because someone doesn't check your train it doesn't always mean they don't have an activated farecard in their pocket.  i wouldn't assume that any less than 90%+ of the riders on the train/healthline have an activated pass on them, even if no fare officer checks it or other riders don't physically see it. 

 

In July 2010, here is the breakdown on fare source systemwide:

Monthly pass - 1,144,481 (out of 3,423,551 rides = 33% of trips)

All day pass - 779,860 (23% of trips)

Cash fare - 513,176 (15% of trips)

RTA employees/transfers - 370,496 (11% of trips)

Healthline - 323,700 (9% of trips)

Other farecards - 220,730 (6%)

University passes - 22,450 (<1 %)

 

so, systemwide, 67% of the riders use a monthly, all day, weekly/5 trip pass or are an rta employee.

 

Thank you for a thoughtful, research-based message.

I think it's a little overreaching to say that people who haven't paid their fares are causing problems, either on or off the bus/train. Quite often, people just simply forget to pay or, as has been too often the case, the machine is malfunctioning and they don't have time to walk to the next station. The latter has happened to me probably a dozen times over the past year.

 

To me that's a bigger problem than fare evasion.

 

You're supposed to pay on the vehicle in that case. They should probably post signs at the stops telling people to do that.

 

It's been a couple of months since I've been on the train now but I don't believe there is a way any longer to pay on the train, at all.

I think it's a little overreaching to say that people who haven't paid their fares are causing problems, either on or off the bus/train. Quite often, people just simply forget to pay or, as has been too often the case, the machine is malfunctioning and they don't have time to walk to the next station. The latter has happened to me probably a dozen times over the past year.

 

To me that's a bigger problem than fare evasion.

 

You're supposed to pay on the vehicle in that case. They should probably post signs at the stops telling people to do that.

 

It's been a couple of months since I've been on the train now but I don't believe there is a way any longer to pay on the train, at all.

 

Hmm, that's weird.  I haven't been on the Healthline since April, but as of then, there were still fareboxes on the buses.

there are fareboxes on the buses, but not on the rapid.

Yes, the proper term is proof-of-payment. If it were truly an "honor-based" system, then you could ride, just based on your word that you paid. When a Transit Police stops you to check, it's not an honor system any more.

^Thanks, Jerry.  I hate it when reporters call it "honor based."  Whatever its faults, it's no more "honor-based" than stop signs and red lights are.

E.C. ought to like this.  Yes finally recycling bins!

where did that come from?

where did that come from?

 

Yeah.  Where did that come from?  Nice to have recycling but lets get the basic use parts of the system right.  Fix the damn vending machines. 

Sorry I meant to post, but was at work.  The recycle bins are from this weeks planning commission:

 

http://planning.city.cleveland.oh.us/designreview/drcagenda/2010/082010/index.php

 

Also, lots of new Huntington signage for the 200 Public Square building. 

Just a quick question are they keeping the bank in the old huntington building?

where did that come from?

Yeah. Where did that come from? Nice to have recycling but lets get the basic use parts of the system right. Fix the damn vending machines.

 

Seriously.  And how about posting some more schedules too.  But I think I'm liking these bins.

Seriously.  And how about posting some more schedules too.  But I think I'm liking these bins.

 

They are really nice. I hope the ecologically challenged--especially the wonderful RTA patronage-- who do not yet even understand what a garbage can is for...will be able to figure out what recycling bins are. There is a difference between the two. But nevertheless, its good to see this is starting to click.

 

On the fares.... I just thought that since it was said in the article that "there is nothing we can do" I wonder how many more fare skippers could happen as a result. The last thing I would have ever stated publicly is something like that.

And this is what it will probably look like 2 months later...

WTH?!  Wow.  Just, wow. SMH

^^ HA!  Wow!  Yeah...and if that happens it will be because of the passing of the buck on WHO's responsibility it is to collect the contents. That looks like "Randy" in Ohio City.

That picture made me laugh out loud at your wonderful creativity and shudder with disgust at the same time at your lack of faith. Thanks alot....

 

I almost hit Ohio City Randy this morning while driving my new black 2010 Genesis Sports Coupe. Dork was walking in the middle of the street at W. 25th and Detroit. Doubt he even watches Burn Notice....

I like how in the word RECY<b>CLE</b> the CLE is in white which stands for Cleveland! My girlfriend noticed that.

 

Take another look...

 

Is this actually an RTA project?

BTW, for those of you wondering what has been taking so long with the Mayfield Red Line station project.... The answer is: Norfolk Southern. The station site is next to NS freight tracks and right of way, so NS has to sign off on the plans. Problem is they've had the plans for a long time (year?) and not provided input yet.

Hey, with Cuyahoga County sales taxes up by 2%, does that mean RTA is heading out of the woods?

Cite an article or some research, tedolph.