Not surprising private interests would trump the public good in this state.  Ohio is very conservative.  Sometimes I wish Cleveland, NEO could secede and form a separate, more progressive state.

Oh boy, we're not going down that road for the umpteenth time.

KJP

 

I believe it was a federal guideline, re: charter service, not the state. The feds often pay for up to 80 percent of new buses, thus giving public transit agencies an unfair advantage over private operators. At least, that was the logic (?).

KJP

 

I believe it was a federal guideline, re: charter service, not the state. The feds often pay for up to 80 percent of new buses, thus giving public transit agencies an unfair advantage over private operators. At least, that was the logic (?).

 

Thanks.

Just curious, will RTA run the Rapid lines 24/7 the weekend surrounding the Casino opening? I know I'd hate to take the rapid down there, then be stranded for the few hours the trains stop running.

Good question...I havent seen anything posted yet about the hours of operation but I'm sure something will be announced soon

They'd probably be better suited tailoring the train schedules to employee shift changes.  I'm sure 95% of customers will arrive by car. In absence of a covered overhead walkway, they would love a shuttle service from the garage across the street to minimize their walk.  ;)

Opening day cannot come any faster....I really believe the casino will turn around the Downtown life in a strong positive way...I'm hoping it would have a strong impact on TowerCity Center...as a child I loved going there....Its going to be interesting to see all the charter buses lined up, full of people checking out our City Casino and Downtown....

 

 

 

Cleveland Rocks

 

 

 

 

  I'm sure 95% of customers will arrive by car.

 

What makes you so sure about that?  Why wouldn't gamblers want to use the Rapid IF schedules were convenient (ie, trains don't stop at around midnight every night as they do now).  This is esp. true given Cleveland's harsh winters and that the Rapid provides an indoor connection.

  I'm sure 95% of customers will arrive by car.

 

What makes you so sure about that?  Why wouldn't gamblers want to use the Rapid IF schedules were convenient (ie, trains don't stop at around midnight every night as they do now).  This is esp. true given Cleveland's harsh winters and that the Rapid provides an indoor connection.

 

I've been to at least half the non-Vegas casinos nationally.  I can tell by looking at the crowd they are not public transit users.  If it were true, Dan Gilbert would be focused on improving that connection and rail service.  Instead the focus is on parking.  And I think this is just the beginning.  There will be others looking to get in on the parking action.  I've already seen action in threads about converting the May Co building to a parking ramp and just think, our once busy riverfront "amphitheatre" is now a parking lot for Indians employees, etc.  Why?  Because all their parking is going to be sucked up by casino goers. 

 

What will be interesting is the part of the crowd who insists on free parking.  The kind of people who would drive to Erie PA before downtown Cleveland just for the free parking.  My grandfather was one of those types....

On yesterday's goregeous day off, I decided to Rapid over to Univ. Circle to check out the Uptown development, grab a Starbucks and sit and read a book by the Art Museum lagoon.  -- and Yes MTS, I took a Green Line train to E. 55 and transferred to a Red Line/Stokes-Windermere train to E. 120 -- it's not so crazy; we don't need a special track/train to shunt inbound Shaker trains out to Windermere (note, in Chicago in-bound Blue Line riders from Bucktown (Damen) ride into the Loop and Transfer to northbound Red Line trainst to places like Rush Street or Wrigglyville even though it's no more out-of-the way that what I did yesterday)-- it appears that others are similarly making this transfer to Univ. Circle, as well.

 

The spanking-new, easy-to-use E. 55 station makes this quick transfer/route easy to use.  ONE PROBLEM... In the short time to kill waiting for the eastbound Red Line train (which time will be shorter once RTA increases Red Line frequency from every 20 to 15 mins), I checked out the new station and noted that it was FILTHY ALREADY... in particular, the stairs up to street level.  C'mon RTA, this station is 6-months old and, already, the signs of early deterioration is present.  Please (Jerry, JetDog, somebody) pass along a word to RTA to maintain its facilities so they don't become unpleasant to passengers and cause RTA to get some special (federal) grant to rebuild because of deterioration.  I'd hate to see this lovely E. 55 station to go the way of the West Blvd stop, which looks 40/50 years old even though it's just over a decade old in reality.

  I'm sure 95% of customers will arrive by car.

 

What makes you so sure about that?  Why wouldn't gamblers want to use the Rapid IF schedules were convenient (ie, trains don't stop at around midnight every night as they do now).  This is esp. true given Cleveland's harsh winters and that the Rapid provides an indoor connection.

 

I've been to at least half the non-Vegas casinos nationally.  I can tell by looking at the crowd they are not public transit users.  If it were true, Dan Gilbert would be focused on improving that connection and rail service.  Instead the focus is on parking.  And I think this is just the beginning.  There will be others looking to get in on the parking action.  I've already seen action in threads about converting the May Co building to a parking ramp and just think, our once busy riverfront "amphitheatre" is now a parking lot for Indians employees, etc.  Why?  Because all their parking is going to be sucked up by casino goers. 

 

What will be interesting is the part of the crowd who insists on free parking.  The kind of people who would drive to Erie PA before downtown Cleveland just for the free parking.  My grandfather was one of those types....

And where are those casinos located?  Outside the city and certainlly outside the CBD/Downtown.  Our casino is smack dab in the heart of the city with multiple bus line and rail.  That May Co proposal probably wont fly and is ridiculous at bes with the parking that we already have that isn't being used.

 

 

On yesterday's goregeous day off, I decided to Rapid over to Univ. Circle to check out the Uptown development, grab a Starbucks and sit and read a book by the Art Museum lagoon.  -- and Yes MTS, I took a Green Line train to E. 55 and transferred to a Red Line/Stokes-Windermere train to E. 120 -- it's not so crazy; we don't need a special track/train to shunt inbound Shaker trains out to Windermere (note, in Chicago in-bound Blue Line riders from Bucktown (Damen) ride into the Loop and Transfer to northbound Red Line trainst to places like Rush Street or Wrigglyville even though it's no more out-of-the way that what I did yesterday)-- it appears that others are similarly making this transfer to Univ. Circle, as well.

 

The spanking-new, easy-to-use E. 55 station makes this quick transfer/route easy to use.  ONE PROBLEM... In the short time to kill waiting for the eastbound Red Line train (which time will be shorter once RTA increases Red Line frequency from every 20 to 15 mins), I checked out the new station and noted that it was FILTHY ALREADY... in particular, the stairs up to street level.  C'mon RTA, this station is 6-months old and, already, the signs of early deterioration is present.  Please (Jerry, JetDog, somebody) pass along a word to RTA to maintain its facilities so they don't become unpleasant to passengers and cause RTA to get some special (federal) grant to rebuild because of deterioration.  I'd hate to see this lovely E. 55 station to go the way of the West Blvd stop, which looks 40/50 years old even though it's just over a decade old in reality.

 

Honey, you could have taken the bus and walked.

^MTS, if you're coming from Shaker Square, I agree with you, the #48 (infrequent though it has become) is a direct shot and relatively quick.  But if you're coming from someone's home in Eastern Shaker, which I was, it's quicker to take the Green Line train to E. 55 then transfer to the Red Line to U. Circle -- esp. the Uptown area, and doubly esp. when the new Mayfield statoin is built.

Yesterday while on my way to a birthday party, I passed under the West 117th Street Red Line train station near my home in Lakewood. There was quite a crowd waiting on the platform, perhaps the largest I've ever seen, and this was long after the St. Patrick's Day parade downtown had started. About 500,000 people were expected to see the parade, the largest crowd ever for Cleveland's St. Patrick's Day festival. The weather, with temps in the 70s, certainly was the biggest factor. My sister also saw large groups of people dressed in festive clothing waiting at bus stops in Parma that morning on routes bound for downtown. But such a huge turnout would not be possible without rail transit.

 

 

 

And where are those casinos located?  Outside the city and certainlly outside the CBD/Downtown.  Our casino is smack dab in the heart of the city with multiple bus line and rail.  That May Co proposal probably wont fly and is ridiculous at bes with the parking that we already have that isn't being used.

 

 

 

 

I can think of quite a few.  Pittsburgh, New Orleans, St Louis, Detroit all come to mind.  All have options for public transit to varying degrees.  I'm sure a small small minority choose to use them.  Most arrive by car or tour bus and park in the huge parking ramps and lots surrounding them.  I hope I'm wrong, but I somehow doubt it.

 

 

 

And where are those casinos located?  Outside the city and certainlly outside the CBD/Downtown.  Our casino is smack dab in the heart of the city with multiple bus line and rail.  That May Co proposal probably wont fly and is ridiculous at bes with the parking that we already have that isn't being used.

 

 

 

 

I can think of quite a few.  Pittsburgh, New Orleans, St Louis, Detroit all come to mind.  All have options for public transit to varying degrees.  I'm sure a small small minority choose to use them.  Most arrive by car or tour bus and park in the huge parking ramps and lots surrounding them.  I hope I'm wrong, but I somehow doubt it.

 

 

You said half of the non Vegas casinos, most are many exurbs, not smack dab in the heart of the city with good transportation options like we have in Cleveland.  Thats why most of those people drive.  I NoLa there isn't good transportation options, as the street car is mostly a novelty.  Detroit, obviously they would drive.  I too hope the people who live in the region use the public transporation connection that currently exist and that the Casino, Tower City & RTA do a lot to promote that link as they did when TC first opened.

 

 

You said half of the non Vegas casinos, most are many exurbs, not smack dab in the heart of the city with good transportation options like we have in Cleveland.  Thats why most of those people drive.  I NoLa there isn't good transportation options, as the street car is mostly a novelty.  Detroit, obviously they would drive.  I too hope the people who live in the region use the public transporation connection that currently exist and that the Casino, Tower City & RTA do a lot to promote that link as they did when TC first opened.

 

This is crucial. I hope the Casino doesn't just ignore the fact that they have a great connection to public transportation, and that RTA doesn't miss the great opportunity of having a casino connected to their rapid hub, and next to their bus hub. I havent seen much, and maybe they are waiting till it opens, but RTA needs to start getting their name out and promoting themselves to Casino goers.

Yesterday while on my way to a birthday party, I passed under the West 117th Street Red Line train station near my home in Lakewood. There was quite a crowd waiting on the platform, perhaps the largest I've ever seen, and this was long after the St. Patrick's Day parade downtown had started. About 500,000 people were expected to see the parade, the largest crowd ever for Cleveland's St. Patrick's Day festival. The weather, with temps in the 70s, certainly was the biggest factor. My sister also saw large groups of people dressed in festive clothing waiting at bus stops in Parma that morning on routes bound for downtown. But such a huge turnout would not be possible without rail transit.

 

 

That crowd was much larger earlier.

 

As I posted in the St. Paddy's Day Thread ... I think RTA handled the situation pretty good. But I think there was a lot of room for improvement.

 

Basically, if you were trying to board at any station that was not Brookpark or the Airport you were SOL. Multiple trains would pass by (this was at 11 am) and you couldn't board. An RTA employee suggested that people board the mostly empty westbound trains and ride to the airport, the train would then turn around and go back downtown, hence guaranteeing a seat and arriving downtown in roughly an hour's time.

 

So what was happening is that the trains were arriving at the airport roughly 80% full. The train would turn back around, fill up at Brookpark and then not be able to accommodate any more passengers at any west side rapid stops. So essentially every station was just bottlenecking.

 

The people who were most screwed were those at W 117th, West Blvd, and W 65th. There was no way you were going downtown on an eastbound train. You had to go to the airport first, which was absurd and most people balked at the idea.

 

I'm not sure if RTA came with empty busses to relieve some of the congestion, but it was just insane. I saw a 26 go by completely full as well at the West Blvd station, also unable to pick up any more passengers. I felt bad for the people who were obviously not going to any parade but were just using public transit as part of their normal life ... they were unable to go anywhere on public transit.

 

My one suggestion for RTA is that they should not have put so much emphasis on their rail system. It obviously could not handle the kind of volume on Saturday, even running 3 car trains every 10 minutes or so. In my opinion, it would have needed 4 or 5 car trains (probably impossible) every 3 minutes (probably also impossible) to even attempt to handle the demand in a reasonable amount of time. In the future, I will never take the red line for any high demand event downtown and instead try to find a less congested bus route or carpool. Unfortunately there was such a high demand for public transit on a Saturday, which is a low bus service day for RTA. I feel as if a lot of congestion on the west side could have been alleviated by running a modified weekday schedule ... particularly for the 55/55F and 26. These busses should have been running every 10-15 minutes down Clifton like they do during the rush hours and just let everyone off on Lakeside and then picked up people on Lakeside and East 9th in front of the Federal Building and then returned back on the Shoreway. The 55 and 26 are the locations where your target St. Patrick's Day customers live. This could have channeled 1000s of people waiting for hours at west side rapid stops and prevented the dangerously large crowds from forming at Tower City.

On a given weekday, RTA handles about 150,000 daily riders. That includes running all routes and lines -- the 55s, the freeway flyers, the articulated buses on the trunk routes, etc. etc -- with all on frequent schedules during the two rush hours.

 

So please tell me, how does a much lighter systemwide weekend schedule accommodate many of the 500,000 downtown visitors (or many of the "mere" 300,000 or 400,000 as in prior years)?

 

Running a Saturday schedule was a mistake. There's no way a Saturday schedule, even with rail services beefed-up, could handle only a small portion of the expected crowd. Consider that each Red Line car can handle up to 160 riders (seated and standing), so the maximum-length three-car trains scheduled every 10 minutes can handle nearly 3,000 people per hour. If people started using the Red Line at its operational capacity for three hours before and until the parade, that's only 9,000 people using the Red Line. And the two-car Red Line trains running through from the East Side and its shorter station platforms restricted the capacity on the West Side. I suspect that the max that our rail system could handle during those three hours was about 20,000 passengers, which isn't very much by rail system standards in most cities where trains can operate every few minutes with longer trains using longer platforms. Since our rail system's capacity is no longer designed to handle such massive crowds, it has to be augmented by buses -- many of which sat idle in RTA garages throughout the city. It was an arbitrary use of a Saturday schedule on what is likely the busiest transit-riding day of the year.

 

These are your chances to show off, RTA, to the casual rider and turn them into regular customers. ....Or scare them off. You don't get many chances to make a first impression.

Yesterday while on my way to a birthday party, I passed under the West 117th Street Red Line train station near my home in Lakewood. There was quite a crowd waiting on the platform, perhaps the largest I've ever seen, and this was long after the St. Patrick's Day parade downtown had started. About 500,000 people were expected to see the parade, the largest crowd ever for Cleveland's St. Patrick's Day festival. The weather, with temps in the 70s, certainly was the biggest factor. My sister also saw large groups of people dressed in festive clothing waiting at bus stops in Parma that morning on routes bound for downtown. But such a huge turnout would not be possible without rail transit.

 

 

That crowd was much larger earlier.

 

As I posted in the St. Paddy's Day Thread ... I think RTA handled the situation pretty good. But I think there was a lot of room for improvement.

 

Basically, if you were trying to board at any station that was not Brookpark or the Airport you were SOL. Multiple trains would pass by (this was at 11 am) and you couldn't board. An RTA employee suggested that people board the mostly empty westbound trains and ride to the airport, the train would then turn around and go back downtown, hence guaranteeing a seat and arriving downtown in roughly an hour's time.

 

So what was happening is that the trains were arriving at the airport roughly 80% full. The train would turn back around, fill up at Brookpark and then not be able to accommodate any more passengers at any west side rapid stops. So essentially every station was just bottlenecking.

 

The people who were most screwed were those at W 117th, West Blvd, and W 65th. There was no way you were going downtown on an eastbound train. You had to go to the airport first, which was absurd and most people balked at the idea.

 

I'm not sure if RTA came with empty busses to relieve some of the congestion, but it was just insane. I saw a 26 go by completely full as well at the West Blvd station, also unable to pick up any more passengers. I felt bad for the people who were obviously not going to any parade but were just using public transit as part of their normal life ... they were unable to go anywhere on public transit.

 

My one suggestion for RTA is that they should not have put so much emphasis on their rail system. It obviously could not handle the kind of volume on Saturday, even running 3 car trains every 10 minutes or so. In my opinion, it would have needed 4 or 5 car trains (probably impossible) every 3 minutes (probably also impossible) to even attempt to handle the demand in a reasonable amount of time. In the future, I will never take the red line for any high demand event downtown and instead try to find a less congested bus route or carpool. Unfortunately there was such a high demand for public transit on a Saturday, which is a low bus service day for RTA. I feel as if a lot of congestion on the west side could have been alleviated by running a modified weekday schedule ... particularly for the 55/55F and 26. These busses should have been running every 10-15 minutes down Clifton like they do during the rush hours and just let everyone off on Lakeside and then picked up people on Lakeside and East 9th in front of the Federal Building and then returned back on the Shoreway. The 55 and 26 are the locations where your target St. Patrick's Day customers live. This could have channeled 1000s of people waiting for hours at west side rapid stops and prevented the dangerously large crowds from forming at Tower City.

 

Can 4/5 five car trains be accommodated at stations on the Westside? 

^ Just my casual observation, but I think the West Park platform might be able to fit 4 cars.  I'm pretty sure the others would max out at 3.

Aren't they still limited on the Red Line by the lightning damage in how often they run the trains?

^ Just my casual observation, but I think the West Park platform might be able to fit 4 cars.  I'm pretty sure the others would max out at 3.

 

Exactly my point!  Why is WestBLVD asking for something that isn't a reality?

Aren't they still limited on the Red Line by the lightning damage in how often they run the trains?

 

Yes as per Jerry's earlier post.

^ Just my casual observation, but I think the West Park platform might be able to fit 4 cars.  I'm pretty sure the others would max out at 3.

 

Exactly my point!  Why is WestBLVD asking for something that isn't a reality?

 

Can't speak for him, but I took his statement more as an assessment of the demand (and what it would take to properly handle it) and not as a proposed solution.  I think his point was that the rail system is not capable of handling that amount of demand without serious congestion the way it's set up.

...and here's the PD article (and poll):

 

St. Patrick's Day rider tells of 'scary' trip downtown on jam-packed rapid (poll)

 

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2012/03/two_passed_out_on_jammed_rapid.html

 

 

It's tough to argue with KJP's bottom line.  The only possible reason I can think of is that running a full load of buses wasn't in the $ for RTA despite the crowds, but I'm just throwing that out without even doing a BOE to see if it's even remotely plausible.

^was waiting for someone to post that article.  The comments after the article pretty much shred the woman for her comments about the train being packed & rowdy.

I can tell you that I saw large crowds waiting along Detroit for the #26 and I was in Parma where I saw some good crowds dressed festively waiting for the #35 along Broadview. People are looking to bus transit in their neighborhoods and communities since the rail system doesn't go everywhere. RTA does have a little bit of money, perhaps enough to leverage a federal Congestion Mitigation/Air Quality grant from NOACA to run an all-hands-on-deck schedule on St. Patrick's Day to accommodate (and hopefully impress) those patrons who otherwise don't ride transit except for this one day of the year. Next year is a great opportunity to try this since SPD will be on a Sunday. Please don't run a Sunday schedule in 2013!

 

These are your chances to show off, RTA, to the casual rider and turn them into regular customers. ....Or scare them off. You don't get many chances to make a first impression.

 

Amen!

 

Question--even though the cars couldn't be serviced at some of the stations, wouldn't it be possible to force downtown passengers to the rear through the center doors since the wouldn't be disembarking until Tower City anyway?  Probably a logistical nightmare, safety concerns, etc....but just a thought.  The poor transit riders trying to get to the next stop for their job or every day life would just have to plead their case that they are not going to Tower City.

^I agree with most of the above comments citing RTA's poor planning for St. Paddy's Day.  The Saturday bus schedule, particularly eliminating the #55s along Clifton was inexcusable... This ON TOP OF the fact that Jerry Masek noted on this board, earlier, that Red Line capacity was limited because RTA hadn't completed repairs on the Brook Park signal/train control tower that was struck by lightening late last summer.  I'm not sure what this limited capacity meant, although Jerry noted the limitation on using more 3-car trains.... But a Saturday schedule on a warm St. Paddy's day that, weeks before, planners were predicting record crowds made no sense..

 

... As for the close-in West Side stations, RTA could have short-turned empty trains at, say, W. 117 to scoop up the masses at the close-in stations... Then, they could have run filled up outer trains express from Puritas or W. Park -- I know North Side CTA (Red Line) trains do this during big downtown Chicago events -- even some big Cubs games... Maybe RTA couldn't because of the signal tower damage.. Then again, RTA was running unusual 3-car Shaker trains, including over ATC (auto train control) sections west of E. 79th street (so, you ask, why were they limited in running only 2-car Red Line trains to/from Stokes-Windermere? ... hmmm.)

 

... Also, I can't understand why RTA wasn't running every in-bound Blue/Green trains out to the Waterfront Line to alllow boarding at WFL stations to avoid the crush at Tower City --> they could have run full WFL trains through Tower City eastbound w/o stopping.  Even given the (weak, Saturday schedule) every 15 min intervals on the Blue-Green trunk-line (every 30 mins on the 2 branches), this would have been much better than the crush at Tower City that existed...

I had a similar situation on the Healthline. Trying to get downtown, the bus was pretty much packed after Case Western Reserve University; It didn't even stop at any station between Church Square and Cleveland State. There simply wasn't room on board and nobody was getting off at those stops, so why stop? I did feel sorry for the poor people waiting at those bypassed stops, the next busses were probably the same way.

 

I will also say that a lot of people on the bus with me were trying out Cleveland's mass transit for the first time ever/first time in a long time.

 

If I were one of those first timers (identified by the completely helpless and confused looks at the ticket kiosks) I would conclude that the Healthline is always this busy; clearly too crowded to ride daily without expecting delays.

On the far east side RTA was not running the usual 39F which stops at shoregate in Willowick. Since st patricks day in normally on a weekday, that bus is running and is pretty much a direct route downtown on the highway. I grew up over there and I know tons of people use it to get down to the parade. Peoples only experience with RTA. So since it was not running, a lot of people just drove over the the green line making that route even more packed. People who didnt know ended up getting on the 30, which runs on weekends, and got dropped off at Windermere probably confused as hell. Then they added to the crowds on the redline. Using the saturday schedule was a huge mistake.

^I agree with most of the above comments citing RTA's poor planning for St. Paddy's Day.  The Saturday bus schedule, particularly eliminating the #55s along Clifton was inexcusable... This ON TOP OF the fact that Jerry Masek noted on this board, earlier, that Red Line capacity was limited because RTA hadn't completed repairs on the Brook Park signal/train control tower that was struck by lightening late last summer.  I'm not sure what this limited capacity meant, although Jerry noted the limitation on using more 3-car trains.... But a Saturday schedule on a warm St. Paddy's day that, weeks before, planners were predicting record crowds made no sense..

 

... As for the close-in West Side stations, RTA could have short-turned empty trains at, say, W. 117 to scoop up the masses at the close-in stations... Then, they could have run filled up outer trains express from Puritas or W. Park -- I know North Side CTA (Red Line) trains do this during big downtown Chicago events -- even some big Cubs games... Maybe RTA couldn't because of the signal tower damage.. Then again, RTA was running unusual 3-car Shaker trains, including over ATC (auto train control) sections west of E. 79th street (so, you ask, why were they limited in running only 2-car Red Line trains to/from Stokes-Windermere? ... hmmm.)

 

... Also, I can't understand why RTA wasn't running every in-bound Blue/Green trains out to the Waterfront Line to alllow boarding at WFL stations to avoid the crush at Tower City --> they could have run full WFL trains through Tower City eastbound w/o stopping.  Even given the (weak, Saturday schedule) every 15 min intervals on the Blue-Green trunk-line (every 30 mins on the 2 branches), this would have been much better than the crush at Tower City that existed...

 

I'm not being an apologist, but where is the money to do all this coming from?  Maybe there are union (staffing) issues?  I would like to think there is more to it than what we see on the surface.  I would like to understand who they couldn't run a M-F schedule on this particular Saturday? 

 

clvlndr, how do you run express trains on two tracks from the westside?  Having express trains skip stations, stations with many people, would only infuriate those waiting.  You cannot compare a 4 track CTA system to a 2 track GCRTA system.  That's comparing apples to oranges.

 

RTA in the past has run three car trains on the blue line in the past, so it's not unusual.  The platforms can handle three cars.  The eastside platforms, notably E 105 and E 120 streets, are not long enough to support a three car train.  I think its now against the law (ADA violation?) to have a train longer than the station or have people move thru cars to exit a short platform.

 

Running trains via the WFL, I agree, trains could have done that.

 

Hopefully Jerry and Jetdog are reading this and sending our comments and suggestions up the flag pole so this doesn't happen when the city is hosting other big events.  In the next few years we'll have quite a few.

 

GCRTA must stop looking at rail as a red headed step child.

I'm not being an apologist, but where is the money to do all this coming from?  Maybe there are union (staffing) issues?  I would like to think there is more to it than what we see on the surface.  I would like to understand who they couldn't run a M-F schedule on this particular Saturday? 

 

 

Maybe union staffing issues precluded it. Or perhaps RTA wasn't confident that they could get enough drivers willing to work overtime. If they cannot mandate their drivers to work overtime, then it is clear to me the union runs RTA, not RTA's managers.

 

But to not run a weekday schedule on the busiest transit riding day of the year -- one day -- tells me this was a decision borne out of inertia. Overtime requires extra money, and RTA had previously announced that it has a little extra cash to play with this year: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/11/rta_wants_to_bolster_bus_and_r.html

 

Could a CMAQ grant be had? Could sponsors be found? We're talking the potential for reach a huge number of riders and the corporate goodwill gained from keeping lots of drunks off the road is worth something to major sponsors (Budweiser, Miller, even the automakers). Ford: "We normally want you to drive our cars, but on St. Patrick's Day, if you're going to be out having a good time, ride RTA instead. We'll see you back on the road tomorrow."

 

As for bus operations, since buses no longer operate through downtown anymore, turn back all bus routes at the edges of downtown and run two connecting, cross-downtown shuttles using the extra-long, articulated buses on designated transit-only routes to be kept clear of pedestrians. Perhaps these could be St. Clair or Huron and Ontario/Huron.

 

That's my two cents.

GCRTA must stop looking at rail as a red headed step child.

:clap:

I'm not being an apologist, but where is the money to do all this coming from?  Maybe there are union (staffing) issues?  I would like to think there is more to it than what we see on the surface.  I would like to understand who they couldn't run a M-F schedule on this particular Saturday? 

 

 

Maybe union staffing issues precluded it. Or perhaps RTA wasn't confident that they could get enough drivers willing to work overtime. If they cannot mandate their drivers to work overtime, then it is clear to me the union runs RTA, not RTA's managers.

 

But to not run a weekday schedule on the busiest transit riding day of the year -- one day -- tells me this was a decision borne out of inertia. Overtime requires extra money, and RTA had previously announced that it has a little extra cash to play with this year: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/11/rta_wants_to_bolster_bus_and_r.html

 

Could a CMAQ grant be had? Could sponsors be found? We're talking the potential for reach a huge number of riders and the corporate goodwill gained from keeping lots of drunks off the road is worth something to major sponsors (Budweiser, Miller, even the automakers). Ford: "We normally want you to drive our cars, but on St. Patrick's Day, if you're going to be out having a good time, ride RTA instead. We'll see you back on the road tomorrow."

 

As for bus operations, since buses no longer operate through downtown anymore, turn back all bus routes at the edges of downtown and run two connecting, cross-downtown shuttles using the extra-long, articulated buses on designated transit-only routes to be kept clear of pedestrians. Perhaps these could be St. Clair or Huron and Ontario/Huron.

 

That's my two cents.

 

They could put an advertiser's logo on the green all day passes they were selling as well.

I'm not being an apologist, but where is the money to do all this coming from?  Maybe there are union (staffing) issues?  I would like to think there is more to it than what we see on the surface.  I would like to understand who they couldn't run a M-F schedule on this particular Saturday? 

 

 

Maybe union staffing issues precluded it. Or perhaps RTA wasn't confident that they could get enough drivers willing to work overtime. If they cannot mandate their drivers to work overtime, then it is clear to me the union runs RTA, not RTA's managers.

 

But to not run a weekday schedule on the busiest transit riding day of the year -- one day -- tells me this was a decision borne out of inertia. Overtime requires extra money, and RTA had previously announced that it has a little extra cash to play with this year: http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2011/11/rta_wants_to_bolster_bus_and_r.html

 

Could a CMAQ grant be had? [glow=red,2,300]Could sponsors be found?[/glow] We're talking the potential for reach a huge number of riders and the corporate goodwill gained from keeping lots of drunks off the road is worth something to major sponsors (Budweiser, Miller, even the automakers). Ford: "We normally want you to drive our cars, but on St. Patrick's Day, if you're going to be out having a good time, ride RTA instead. We'll see you back on the road tomorrow."

 

As for bus operations, since buses no longer operate through downtown anymore, turn back all bus routes at the edges of downtown and run two connecting, cross-downtown shuttles using the extra-long, articulated buses on designated transit-only routes to be kept clear of pedestrians. Perhaps these could be St. Clair or Huron and Ontario/Huron.

 

That's my two cents.

 

Ding...ding...ding, we have a winner.  But advertising income for RTA is a whole 'nother bag or worms!  I was thinking RTA could have run buses on a M-F schedule.  BUT have buses that normally go all the way into downtown into train stations.

I'm not sure I really understand why running trains on the WFL would have helped, if train space was the limiting factor.  And actually, it would have extended the route for some runs, meaning fewer trains in and out of downtown per hour, assuming RTA was already trying to minimize headways.

I'm not sure I really understand why running trains on the WFL would have helped, if train space was the limiting factor.  And actually, it would have extended the route for some runs, meaning fewer trains in and out of downtown per hour, assuming RTA was already trying to minimize headways.

 

I think the suggestion was to relieve the lines and overcrowding at Tower City Center, even though it wouldn't necessarily relieve overcrowding on the trains.

I took the waterfront line so it was running. Nobody knew it was, and it seemed to not be running very often. No rta worker at the station either.

^I agree with most of the above comments citing RTA's poor planning for St. Paddy's Day.  The Saturday bus schedule, particularly eliminating the #55s along Clifton was inexcusable... This ON TOP OF the fact that Jerry Masek noted on this board, earlier, that Red Line capacity was limited because RTA hadn't completed repairs on the Brook Park signal/train control tower that was struck by lightening late last summer.  I'm not sure what this limited capacity meant, although Jerry noted the limitation on using more 3-car trains.... But a Saturday schedule on a warm St. Paddy's day that, weeks before, planners were predicting record crowds made no sense..

 

... As for the close-in West Side stations, RTA could have short-turned empty trains at, say, W. 117 to scoop up the masses at the close-in stations... Then, they could have run filled up outer trains express from Puritas or W. Park -- I know North Side CTA (Red Line) trains do this during big downtown Chicago events -- even some big Cubs games... Maybe RTA couldn't because of the signal tower damage.. Then again, RTA was running unusual 3-car Shaker trains, including over ATC (auto train control) sections west of E. 79th street (so, you ask, why were they limited in running only 2-car Red Line trains to/from Stokes-Windermere? ... hmmm.)

 

Agreed, especially about running some trains empty to the numbered streets.  That's some really basic planning logic right there.  I was trying to get on at W98th and had absolutely no chance.  EVERY train was allowed to fill up in West Park while ZERO capacity was assigned to the inner city stations.  Orders from the top, is what RTA staff told me.  Sheer incompetence is the most charitable way I can describe that... other suggestions could be made but I won't.  I gave up trying to get downtown after 2 buses and 3 trains couldn't fit me. 

 

Running a Saturday schedule, with no 55, on the heaviest day of the year?  That is simply breathtaking.  I am ashamed at how poorly my city's transit system is run and I would like to know what steps are being taken to improve RTA's planning capabilities. 

RTA has only one "pocket track" left on the west side to permit the kind of short-turning of trains at mid-route points that some of us have suggested. That location is the Puritas station. The pocket tracks that once existed at West 117th and West Park were removed years ago. RTA can and does use the Brookpark Yard to short-turn trains since the airport tunnel/station limits operational capacity.

RTA has only one "pocket track" left on the west side to permit the kind of short-turning of trains at mid-route points that some of us have suggested. That location is the Puritas station. The pocket tracks that once existed at West 117th and West Park were removed years ago. RTA can and does use the Brookpark Yard to short-turn trains since the airport tunnel/station limits operational capacity.

 

Wait, I just thought about this, and this could make my previous answer wrong, but if my memory serves me correct, there is a spur track before or after 65 street that runs past w 25 and onto the bridge.  I need to stay awake on my next ride.

Going back to KJP's point upthread, this was RTA's chance to shine.  No union or staffing issues should have taken control of this chance to win over riders.  Especially since those thousands of day passes would more than pay the overtime.  And in the end, sometimes you gotta spend money to make money.  The thousands of PO'd not-so-frequent transit users will someday become Cleveland.com posters.  And we don't need more of those in this town!

RTA has only one "pocket track" left on the west side to permit the kind of short-turning of trains at mid-route points that some of us have suggested. That location is the Puritas station. The pocket tracks that once existed at West 117th and West Park were removed years ago. RTA can and does use the Brookpark Yard to short-turn trains since the airport tunnel/station limits operational capacity.

 

Not necessary.  All they had to do was turn around wherever they normally do, but not start picking up until the first station where nobody could get on the last train.  Some trains would go past W98th full... but others would go past Puritas empty, so they could pick up at W98th.  That way all stations are serviced equally.

Going back to KJP's point upthread, this was RTA's chance to shine.  No union or staffing issues should have taken control of this chance to win over riders.  Especially since those thousands of day passes would more than pay the overtime.   And in the end, sometimes you gotta spend money to make money.  The thousands of PO'd not-so-frequent transit users will someday become Cleveland.com posters.  And we don't need more of those in this town!

 

I understand your frustration, but you cannot make that claim!  And at the same time, I agree with ," sometimes you gotta spend money to make money"!  I'm constantly preaching that to the bean counters!

Wait, I just thought about this, and this could make my previous answer wrong, but if my memory serves me correct, there is a spur track before or after 65 street that runs past w 25 and onto the bridge.  I need to stay awake on my next ride.

 

I may be mistaken, but I suspect you're referring to a maintenance-of-way yard just southwest of West 25th Street. There are several tracks there, but most if not all have no overhead electric wires. And what would be the point of using this? The capacity demand is west of there, so trains need to operate through this area to Tower City.

 

 

Especially since those thousands of day passes would more than pay the overtime.  And in the end, sometimes you gotta spend money to make money. 

 

Not sure if that's correct. Considering each RTA ticket pays for less than 20 percent of system costs and labor (including overtime) accounts for 75 percent of system costs, the odds are that more riders = more losses. RTA's extremely low fares and high labor costs means that the more riders RTA carries, the more money it loses.

 

Not necessary.  All they had to do was turn around wherever they normally do, but not start picking up until the first station where nobody could get on the last train.  Some trains would go past W98th full... but others would go past Puritas empty, so they could pick up at W98th.  That way all stations are serviced equally.

 

That's a lot of wasted employee time plus wasted track and vehicle capacity over a section of line which already has had its capacity reduced because of the signal system outage. Sorry to say, but I think the solution for the inner stations was expanded bus services.

Greetings:

 

I understand that there are many service-related posts here from Saturday's record crowd. I have been away on other projects for several days, and have not read them yet. Before I do, I want to post some general info that you may not be aware of.

 

1. Every year, RTA devises a plan for St. Patrick's Day, and every year, after the parade has come and gone, we meet to do a debriefing and take notes on what worked well, and what can be improved upon. Those notes are the basis of next year's plan. Every RTA department is involved in this plan in some way.

 

2. The ridership numbers were released today. The Rapid carried more than 100,000 persons.

 

3. Our plan called for us to put the maximum number of Rapid cars into service, and we did. We were limited somewhat, as repairs continue on the Far West Side, from the lighning strike on 7-22-11.

 

4. Many RTA employees volunteered to help out at the most heavily used transit stations, such as those on the West Side.

 

5. From 9 a.m.- 1 p.m., I helped park cars at the west lot at Brookpark. By then, there were people waiting in line 30-60 minutes to board the Rapid. I took a train to Tower City, snapped some photos, and returned to Brookpark. Even at 2 p.m. at Tower City, all cars had full loads, both coming and going. Back at Brookpark, I found a couple that somehow had stranded miles from their car, and I drove them to it.

 

6. As you know, you cannot increase the capacity of the entire system to accommodate crowds on one day. We at RTA are proud of our efforts on Saturday. However, we can always do better, and I expect that next year, we will.

 

7. One more word about air-conditioning on Rapid cars. There are several days in Cleveland every year when I use the heater in my car in the AM, and the AC in my car in the PM. Rail cars are not that flexible. Each rail car has to be taken out of service while mechanics work to switch its ventilating system from heat to AC, or vice versa. We all know how fickle Cleveland's temperatures are, so the date to make this switch is always a moving target. After the change begins, it takes several weeks before all cars can be serviced. That's why you may see a car with AC on a cool day, or a car with its heat on during a hot day.

Will RTA run the Rapid lines 24/7 the weekend surrounding the Casino opening? I know I'd hate to take the rapid down there, then be stranded for the few hours the trains stop running.

 

At this time, no additional service hours are being considered. RTA has a number of bus routes that operate 24/7 and I'm told that there is more than enough capacity on these buses to meet the late-night demand. Most major Rapid stations are also served by buses 24/7.

^I agree, the trains were never going to be able to handle the SPD volume.  If that Transit Center was built next to Public Square, RTA could have been running buses to specific Rapid parking lots to handle the excess volume coming from the West side.  The excess volume from the East side could have been dropped off at the STJ Transit Center.  Not a perfect solution, but it would at least put people in the area.

 

I understand the perspective that this was a moment for RTA to shine, but I think we have to be realistic in our expectations.  This was not a Browns, Indians or Cavs game where 20,000 to 80,000 people converged.  This was an all-day festival where a reported 500,000 people converged over a very large area.  RTA is designed to meet the needs of the public who need reliable transportation on a consistent basis.  It is unreasonable to expect RTA to suddenly have the assets and resources to accommodate such a large volume of riders.

 

I vividly recall last year riding home on a train.  It was packed and a fight broke out.  It was then I realized that this year SPD would fall on the weekend.  I knew I would not be on a train.