Who was terminated as a result of this process? 

 

In the private sector, anyone who led this project would most-likely have been shown the door....

I dunno. Failure is often rewarded in the private sector as well.

I dunno. Failure is often rewarded in the private sector as well.

 

Very true.  But this is taxpayer money and someone should be held accountable.

Was there a problem with ridership counting/reporting in 2007? There is no way red line ridership went from 459,900 in march of 2006, to 815,600 in march of 2007, and back down to 478,900 in march of 2008.

Euclid was basically shut down at the time so that may represent riders that would have taken the 6 in '06 and the Healthline in '08.

 

Still seems a bit high. And JMasek reports that the red line has had it highest ridership every month since like 1988, which is true, unless you include 2007. So he must be ignoring 2007 numbers for some reason. Something just seems off that year.

^ In my opinion, UO may have called the PD's attention to write about the machines, but the progress on the contract was independent of that. The real game-changer was getting Xerox officials to the table and making them more aware of the scope of the issue. Believe me, all options were considered, including some of the ones that have been mentioned on this forum. In each case, we weighed the consequences of option A with the consequences of option B, and chose the one that, in our opinion, was best for RTA and our customers. You may disagree with our actions, and that is your right, but know that we never just ignored the problem, as some have said earlier.

Hey, I'm feeling important in my own little fantasy world over here, don't burst my bubble. :-)

Sorry news to report.

 

Leonard Ronis, 90, died this morning. The PD will probably have a full obit Friday. Ronis was the last GM of CTS, and the first GM of RTA. He was an architect of the state legislation that allowed transit authorities to be created. He helped form the Ohio Public Transit Assn. He was active nationally, served two years as president of APTA, and was inducted into their Hall of Fame. He was active in transit for 60 years. Thousands of people who never knew him are benefitting from his dedication. I thought you would want to know.

 

http://obits.cleveland.com/obituaries/cleveland/obituary.aspx?n=leonard-ronis&pid=158387037&fhid=2098

Thanks Jerry. Sorry to hear. I met him only once and that was almost 25 years ago. He lived a nice long life.

Mr. Ronis was a major name in Cleveland transit... RIP.

I've heard several infrequent Rapid users and out-of-towners say they couldn't find the Rapid in Tower City without lots of help.  Others, who've traveled here several times never even knew Cleveland had "subways", despite having been to Hopkins and Tower City... Can't RTA get better signage at Tower City?  There's little signs with a railroad train image and the letters RTA. 

 

btw, what's with the general use of "RTA" on signs at rapid transit stations?  Should people just understand that RTA means rapid transit, despite the agency's running 5 distinct modes?  Other cities, like Chicago, use the terms "L" or "Subway" when describing rail services.  Seems RTA is limiting knowledge of the system to locals who already know it.

btw, what's with the general use of "RTA" on signs at rapid transit stations?  Should people just understand that RTA means rapid transit, despite the agency's running 5 distinct modes?  Other cities, like Chicago, use the terms "L" or "Subway" when describing rail services.  Seems RTA is limiting knowledge of the system to locals who already know it.

 

Well, first off, RTA is a generalized abbreviation for Regional Transit Authority, and is used as an indicator for any or all of the services provided. Many stations act as boarding points for two or more modes of service.

 

While Chicago may use the term L or subway in descriptive text, I can't ever recall seeing signage to that effect (please, by all means, show me examples if you've got them). Most stations generally had signs indicating the station name, with no additional supporting or descriptive text indicating the mode of service.The more recently developed Frankle-Monigle signs, as they're referred to, have a component that involves post-style kiosks topped with an L as station markers, but I'm unfamiliar with the extent of deployment of these signs beyond the pilot undertaken in 2001.

 

In a similar vein, we routinely use the word "Rapid" in text descriptions to describe our rail services. The presence of tracks and overhead catenary are usually pretty good clues as to what the service mode is.

 

This isn't to say signage such as you've described doesn't exist, and I will freely admit to being a more seasoned transit rider than the average bear, so the specific signage isn't of as much interest to me, but I think the suggestion that transit accessibility and knowledge is being "limited to locals who already know it" is a bit off-base.

In Chicago the signs pointing you to the public transport into downtown say

 

Trains to City.

 

 

We need the same thing.

 

Here it is in Hong Kong.....

 

http://upgrd.com/images/upload/image/kevin/china-16/lmc-cyberport/trains-to-city.jpg

 

Good lord, I would be willing to bet green money that 50% of the people in Cuyahoga County do not know what the RTA is let alone anyone flying into town.

 

Train to City is as unambiguous as it can get.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I've always liked "Trains to City." I've seen these simple signs at various airports in the US and in Europe.

 

And yes, I've encountered Greater Clevelanders who have never used the Rapid. I met a 50-something Bay Village couple last month at the West 117th station (not sure why they boarded there instead of at Triskett, but whatever) and I helped them with the fare machines. They apologized for not knowing how to use them (if they only knew!) and added this was their first time riding the Rapid. They were heading to the casino.

I think I'd like "Trains to Downtown Cleveland and University Circle" to be extra clear, but I agree that something in plain English is better than the RTA reference and the little rail logo (I think there's one of those too).

I think I'd like "Trains to Downtown Cleveland and University Circle" to be extra clear, but I agree that something in plain English is better than the RTA reference and the little rail logo (I think there's one of those too).

 

So where would I board the trains to Lakewood or Shaker Heights? :-P

 

Seriously, keep it simple: "Trains to City"

I am a big cheerleader for branding, especially when it comes to transit systems. The Metro in Paris, and the U-Bahn in Vienna were 2 cities I had the pleasure of living in whose branding was very excellent. Look, you don't need a separate heavy rail, light rail, BRT, and bus branding. Then you end up with San Fran, where bus, munimetro, bart, and caltrain were different entities. Confusing and unnecessary at our scale (and sf's scale imho). I think we have 2 clear systems, bus and *rapid* transit. It should be branded as such. (thanks for the fix, Jerry!)

 

Sometimes I see the large blue square with a white "U" from Vienna or the red circle with blue through it like in London.. I see those as being good for Cleveland. It would help people make the connection to a fixed rail system.. and ours is one that is still very ahead of other cities our size. Imagine being outside the west side market and seeing a large new logo for "Cleveland Underground" or something, and an arrow. Then seeing the same sign on Public Square, University Circle, Airport, etc etc. This is how you reach the general public properly.

 

(I would post pictures if I could but I am at work)

A few weeks ago a friend on facebook mentioned he was going to the Indians game and the casino and wished there was somewhere he could drive to on the edge of the city and ride a train into downtown so he didn't have to pay for parking. When I suggested taking the Blue Line from Shaker (he was driving up from the Hudson area) he said he'd heard of a rapid before but didn't realize it was a train and not just a bus that claims to move rapidly. This is a friend that's lived in Northeast Ohio since at least the early 80's.

^ The train logo is there for those who do not read English.

 

Scav said we have "2 clear system, bus and mass transit." I think he/she meant to say "bus and Rapid Transit."

Forget people who cannot read English.

 

What your dedicated users and biggest boosters are telling you.

 

What you have is not clear enough.

 

here is an incredibly easy "fix"

 

More "Train to City"

 

and less RTA and Logos that are easily confused with the elevator logo.

 

And MORE  of them.

 

There is 1 easily missed sign on Councourse C and then nothing until you are down at baggage claim

 

Every transition....From D to the Tunnel.  From the Tunnel to C  1/2 down C.  where the concourses meet at security.

 

Top and bottom of every escalator.....TRAIN TO CITY  add RTA and the little train if you would like.

 

couple grand in signs...and one case where you will absolutely make up the cost in increased fares.

 

I use the public transport wherever I go...Hopkins is the worst with telling people they can take a train into the city.

To be perfectly clear, Scav, San Fran's issue wasn't/isn't just one of branding. BART, CalTrain, and SFMTA (into which Muni was folded) are separate legal entities, and often compete with one another for development dollars.

here is a link to the page at CLE

 

http://www.clevelandairport.com/Transportation/Public-Transit.aspx

 

I can't tell by the picture I am taking a train....you are what 35 words in before train is mentioned.

 

Public Transit...Mass transit....Public Transportation....RTA.

 

All true....all suboptimal.

 

Train to City.....exactly what it is...exactly what other cities do.

 

Call it a train....take a picture that I can easily identify as being a train....like the front of the Redline at tower city that says Airport.

 

Make it clear where I can find the train...

 

And you will get yourself a whole bunch of new riders.

 

Or just keep on keeping on with what you are doing.

 

Unlike Cleveland.Bom posters we want you to succeed.

 

This is low hanging fruit.

 

JeTDoG,

 

Yeah I realized that must have been the issue after having been there for a few weeks. I can't imagine the average person really figured it out, though, and it was confusing at first. I WISH we had that many excellent options to brand, though.

 

Anyways, I still think it can be a lesson to RTA in how we market our various transit options. Especially if CVSR ever gets downtown.

here is a link to the page at CLE

 

http://www.clevelandairport.com/Transportation/Public-Transit.aspx

 

I can't tell by the picture I am taking a train....you are what 35 words in before train is mentioned.

 

Public Transit...Mass transit....Public Transportation....RTA.

 

All true....all suboptimal.

 

Train to City.....exactly what it is...exactly what other cities do.

 

Call it a train....take a picture that I can easily identify as being a train....like the front of the Redline at tower city that says Airport.

 

Make it clear where I can find the train...

 

And you will get yourself a whole bunch of new riders.

 

Or just keep on keeping on with what you are doing.

 

Unlike Cleveland.Bom posters we want you to succeed.

 

This is low hanging fruit.

 

 

And I take it you've passed these comments along to THEIR webmaster/marketing folks? They control the content on their site, not RTA.

I havent been in the airport station so I dont know the layout, but whats wrong with these signs? (Mainly the first one?)

 

 

No, I am passing them along to somebody whom I think cares enough to make this right.

 

they did not ask you for the verbiage you would have liked associated with you?  they are going to make a change that some random person suggests that gains them nothing?  BUT might get them an angry note from RTA...hey why did you change that?

 

 

maybe if RTA says hey guys could you switch out that photo with this one and change the text to this they will...

 

My suggestion to CLE will be a colossal waste of my time.  Heck somebody who could benefit from the change, the person whom I am suggesting it to, is < than receptive. 

 

CLE is going to put my e-mail address on block as a crank.

^^Not everyone knows what "rapid transit" is and more importantly, we're talking about wayfinding signs in the airport terminals; those pictures are the signs on the station itself.

 

Scav, I very much like your thoughts about branding.  I definitely think RTA could use a nifty logo for rapid transit that can prominently mark the entrance to every rapid station.  Something to differentiate that level of service from all others.  It's a nice branding opportunity for the city too, because "Rapid" is a service description that's faded from a lot of other city's vocabularies.

I havent been in the airport station so I dont know the layout, but whats wrong with these signs? (Mainly the first one?)

 

 

 

The first one you don't see until you are almost on the train.....90% of the people who might like to take a train into downtown will never see that sign.  That sign would be better than the 1 and I do mean 1 sign you see on the concourse... that says RTA and has that little logo which can be confused with other logos....

 

And really how hard is it to Say TRAIN instead of RAPID TRANSIT......everybody knows what a train is.  and it is a train....why make this more complicated than it needs to be.

 

When I learned both French (high school) and Spanish (college)  learning the words associated with Trains and train stations was one of the first lessons beyond counting, months/days/years they taught you.

 

 

 

 

The second one...you have never been to Cleveland you see RTA.....tell me what that means...GO!

 

And are you even sure that last letter is an A?  because it sure looks like a mirror of the first letter which you think is an R....maybe it is a stylized logo and it is RTR.

 

 

JeTDog, dont you work for RTA?

 

I havent been in the airport station so I dont know the layout, but whats wrong with these signs? (Mainly the first one?)

 

 

 

The first one you don't see until you are almost on the train.....90% of the people who might like to take a train into downtown will never see that sign.  That sign would be better than the 1 and I do mean 1 sign you see on the concourse... that says RTA and has that little logo which can be confused with other logos....

 

And really how hard is it to Say TRAIN instead of RAPID TRANSIT......everybody knows what a train is.  and it is a train....why make this more complicated than it needs to be.

 

When I learned both French (high school) and Spanish (college)  learning the words associated with Trains and train stations was one of the first lessons beyond counting, months/days/years they taught you.

 

 

 

 

The second one...you have never been to Cleveland you see RTA.....tell me what that means...GO!

 

And are you even sure that last letter is an A?  because it sure looks like a mirror of the first letter which you think is an R....maybe it is a stylized logo and it is RTR.

 

 

 

The big RTA sign is right next to first sign I believe, so for people who are familiar its right there and its big and bright. Like Ive said, Ive never been in the airport concourse, so that is where the major lack of signage problem is.

CLE is going to put my e-mail address on block as a crank.

 

UrbanOhio has that ability, too, kennybabes. Your passion for this issue is pretty clear. But you've made your point and RTA has heard you. No need to belabor it. Thanks.

If I remember the layout correctly.  The RTA is  on the opposite wall.

 

You have your back to one or the other.

 

You see RTA when you leave the train station.  You see Rapid Transit when you enter the train station.

 

Either that or the RTA is on the platform....it has been a little while since I flew (march)

 

And like I said if you did not already know how to get to the train station, you aren't seeing either.

 

Last year or early this year (can't remember) RTA said they were planning to put monitors up in the airport announcing incoming trains, etc. as well as more signage directing people to the trains. They did remodel the train level and replace the floor and that ridiculous ceiling that was constantly leaking with tubes coming down into trash cans. ;) so at least it's more inviting. But I guess the signage hasn't been implemented. I'll be there next Friday, I'll have to scope out what we have.

Quite a while ago Jerry made a reference to maybe refreshing RTA's graphics/map before the Medmart/convention center opened. I will go look for the quote..

 

I wondered then if that was in the works, and if we can see it being implemented currently.

 

 

btw, it is that twisted Rapid map that greets Cleveland travelers boarding at the Airport station (the map is posted on or near the former fare booth entering the station).  Not good.

 

That should be fixed shortly, thanks.

 

 

Nevermind, it was later deemed a misunderstanding. There is no current graphics effort, it has already been discussed.

Doesn't make sense to add screens now, as RTA's airport rail service will halt for up to six months for the subway rehab by early 2013. Best to wait to make changes until after the tunnel and station reopen. Then new signs, screens and whatever else can be unveiled.

These could be a cheaper fix

 

These could be a cheaper fix

 

:clap:

I think Cleveland's pretty cool in that we branded our train system the Rapid; we're unique; no other American city calls there's that; just like the L is Chicago and the T, Boston.  When RTA was formed, I wish they had branded the system with an easily identifiable symbol with the word Rapid; perhaps a giant circle with an R in it.  Oh well, they didn't.  At least we could be consistent.  In most neighborhoods, it's probably not an issue since most are filled with locals.  But downtown, the Airport, Ohio City and other touristy (meaning stops for light-using locals as well as out-of-towners) could be more consistent.  I do think the floor stickies like CTA's at O'Hare airport would really help.  I notice that Tower City has been using them to promote stores and other activities.  In fairnes, the new Puritas ediface station has 'Puritas Rapid Transit Station' on it, but that's rare.

No, I am passing them along to somebody whom I think cares enough to make this right.

 

they did not ask you for the verbiage you would have liked associated with you?  they are going to make a change that some random person suggests that gains them nothing?  BUT might get them an angry note from RTA...hey why did you change that?

 

 

maybe if RTA says hey guys could you switch out that photo with this one and change the text to this they will...

 

My suggestion to CLE will be a colossal waste of my time.  Heck somebody who could benefit from the change, the person whom I am suggesting it to, is < than receptive. 

 

CLE is going to put my e-mail address on block as a crank.

 

kennybabes, I'll make my comments from the porch, since you're already on the cross; here's a hint -- self-martyrdom will get you nowhere with me.

 

To answer your questions, no, they did not specifically ask ME what verbiage was wanted on there, because it wasn't MY decision to make; in that respect, I am, as you, one person, albeit with slightly better connections.

 

There seems to be this constant tone of "RTA" as a person; maybe all the political commentary about corporate personhood has clouded people's minds, but "RTA" doesn't make suggestions, or plans, or policies -- our general manager lobbies for funding and advocates for our mission, our service planners create and refine routes, our engineers design facilities, and our operators get people where they're going. I, in my duties, manage and maintain our online presence, in many ways, but I don't do it alone. Some of the other people responsible work for me, some work with me, and some work above me.

 

Your suggestions are good, and I'll certainly pass them along, but let me suggest you look at things from another perspective -- who's CLE going to listen to, the guy with the vested interest in having things done to put himself and his message in the best light possible, or the objective concerned citizen who, in this digital day & age, might be able to muster a groundswell of support from "plain folks" like himself? Adopting a defeatist attitude of "you can't fight city hall" rings hollow in my book. I'd suggest that the BEST approach comes at them from both directions.

One suggestion to make the Red Line schedule easier to read: either bold or put verticle lines, from top to bottom, on either side of the Tower City time point... since it's near the middle of the schedule, it's a pain in the arse to have to keep looking up to the top to see what column you're in.  And with Tower City (the main destination) highlighted to make it stand out, it will be easier to read other time points next to the TC column or 1 or 2 columns on either side of it ... Again, just a suggestion.

Or make the Tower City column a lightly shaded column.

^that would work, too.  Pittsburgh's PAT uses this approach IIRC.

Good suggestions on the Red Line schedule. I'll take a look at the underlying code and see how easy it will be to programmatically accomplish that, since I'd rather not have to apply the formatting to each individual cell. HTML tables, unfortunately, are much more conducive to row-based formatting than column-based.

 

clvlndr, if you can point me to a specific example from Pittsburgh, I'll take a look. My cursory viewing only showed that they differently-shade am vs. pm times.

I've never had a problem reading the schedules.  Finding them can be very difficult though, if you're not already at Tower City and you're not online at the time. 

Call it Rapid Rail instead of Rapid Transit...... problem solved (if there really is a problem to begin with)

Good suggestions on the Red Line schedule. I'll take a look at the underlying code and see how easy it will be to programmatically accomplish that, since I'd rather not have to apply the formatting to each individual cell. HTML tables, unfortunately, are much more conducive to row-based formatting than column-based.

 

clvlndr, if you can point me to a specific example from Pittsburgh, I'll take a look. My cursory viewing only showed that they differently-shade am vs. pm times.

 

JetDog, I went to PAT's website and couldn't find the schedule-- their website is a little goofy (RTA's is much easier to navigate.  I see they recently apparently dropped the route numbers for their LRT (the "T", ... such a rip-off of Boston's great old rail netowrk which has gone by The "T" for decades) and go only by the Red and Blue lines, nowadays.  I'll continue to poke around and post it for you if I find it.  Maybe someone else will beat me to the punch.

Good suggestions on the Red Line schedule. I'll take a look at the underlying code and see how easy it will be to programmatically accomplish that, since I'd rather not have to apply the formatting to each individual cell. HTML tables, unfortunately, are much more conducive to row-based formatting than column-based.

 

clvlndr, if you can point me to a specific example from Pittsburgh, I'll take a look. My cursory viewing only showed that they differently-shade am vs. pm times.

 

JetDog, I went to PAT's website and couldn't find the schedule-- their website is a little goofy (RTA's is much easier to navigate.  I see they recently apparently dropped the route numbers for their LRT (the "T", ... such a rip-off of Boston's great old rail netowrk which has gone by The "T" for decades) and go only by the Red and Blue lines, nowadays.  I'll continue to poke around and post it for you if I find it.  Maybe someone else will beat me to the punch.

 

Thanks for the effort; I do see the shading that was mentioned applied on their PDF schedules, delineating North Shore Alleghany Station, and I dare say that's easy(er) to do, since a PDF is a fixed document that's meant to be printed (and our graphic artist is twitching right now since I've made a design change suggestion I haven't told him about :-) ).

 

Pittsburgh also does it across ALL schedules, bus and rail, even when the station is an end point (and thus, more easily discernible). And you're right, their website design, while data-heavy, leaves a bit to be desired from a presentation standpoint.

 

I'm all for doing it on the HTML schedules, and I think I'd only favor doing it on the Red Line rail schedules, and possibly those of any bus routes that pass by Tower City and have a timepoint there, but do not terminate there.

So basically RTA should have signs like these throughout their system? But with the arrow pointed towards the destination?

Cleveland Indians and Greater Cleveland RTA reportedly will announce tomorrow a discount incentive to encourage more fans to take the train or bus to games. Indians fans have complained about the increasingly high cost/limited availability of downtown parking ever since the casino opened. I don't know the full details of the incentive, but it could involve fans displaying a current RTA pass/ticket when buying food or merchandise and getting a discount on their purchase. Stay tuned!

I dont know what peoples problem is with parking. The last game I went to, I parked at the 200 public square garage. Its not that hard to find a spot unless you want to be like 50 feet away from the gate. But im glad to hear about this idea.

I haven't had any parking problems either, and I've been to two of the more heavily attended games this season. Both times I parked right across the street from the Gateway complex and I think I paid $10 to park. I think there's a lot of people with unrealistic expectations. Maybe we can make the stadium like a drive in, and you can watch from your car!

 

That being said, I'm glad KJP posted this because frankly, I completely forgot that I could just take the Rapid into Tower City and walk over. Why I forgot, i have no idea. Just didn't occur to me. It does now.

Disregard. The Cleveland Indians have rejected All Aboard Ohio's proposal and instead are hiring their own private shuttle bus to deliver to the ballpark fans parking behind the West Side Market. That's not going to work for Friday night or Saturday afternoon/night games when parking is at a premium in Ohio City. I've also posted this at the Ohio City thread, where I suspect this will add to the discussion regarding "parking problems" in that neighborhood. It's not a parking problem. It's a lack of awareness of transportation alternatives. Anyway, that parking discussion is here:

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2492.msg630676.html#msg630676