Maybe it's the omitted stations, but it could be because the sign is on the westbound side of the station like KJP said.  But I noticed that the warning at the top of the sign says "DO NOT CROSS TRACKS" when there is a pedestrian walkway to the right which, oddly enough, happens to be crossing the tracks.

That no stops are shown east of Shaker Square? Regardless of whether that's what you're getting at, is there a sign on the eastbound platform showing those stops?

 

Yes, the sign on the eastbound platform has Blue and Green line stops (also weirdly sheathed in Red) but omits stops west of the Square, essentially listing the stops passengers will encounter if they board eastbound trains.  This is a pretty common practice for modern transit signage; I first noticed it done on the D.C. Metro.  Recent signs on the Red Line have also been following this practice.

 

Yes, I too was going to mention the "do not cross tracks" @ the crosswalk, but can't make out what the picture notes.  This sign was probably intended to be placed at the opposite end of the platform where there's no crosswalk near where the recent wheelchair blocks were built.

... how about the fact that the route sign, here as well as the outbound side, has the rapid lines designated in RED while these are the BLUE and GREEN lines as opposed to the existing RED line?

 

Yup, this is what I had in mind.  Petty, but did they have to pick the color of the one rail line that doesn't pass through this station?

 

I hadn't noticed the "do not cross tracks" sign- that's pretty funny.  I think RTA needs a signage czar.

The amazing thing is that Calabrese told me he was in Portland when they did their big signage package... the best I've seen.  How can he be so far off-base when it comes to signage here in Cleveland...system-wide?  Some stations (like Cedar/University) are clearly just being left to decay until they're rebuilt.  Pretty lame, if you ask me.

StrapHanger, that's good catch.  But as amusing as it is on the one hand, on the other, it shows RTA's either total contempt or, at least, negligence toward the Rapid, which should be the jewel of our transit system.  Just one more piece of evidence of where Joe Calabrese's head is.

Dammit. I just noticed that I said the station is at the southwest corner of Madison and West 117th. It's on the southeast corner!!! And there's a word missing in the first paragraph, but I saw that only after the paper came out. Funny how you can find some typos when the text is printed on a piece of paper but not on a computer screen. Sigh.

yeah, i wasn't going to say anything... who edits that paper anyway?!  :lol:

Three people proof-read it, not including me. I realize they have a couple hundred articles to read through (probably half of those are read in two days - Monday and Tuesday), but damn!

I forgove you, KJP!

 

Anywho, it's nice to see that station is functioning! That's going to be great when you're going to the airport or it's late or snowy. I hated getting dumped off on the other side of the street and trying to catch a train or circulator. I approve!

(Moved clvlndr's post of 7/7/07 to this thread.... noozer)

 

 

… as far as Joe Calabrese being a "rail hater"... it's a comment I've heard many times, with little hard evidence to back it up, and simply saying something doesn't make it so (would that it did, we'd already have flying cars) JeTDog (6/27/07)

 

OK, here’s some evidence: Calabrese’s admin killed expansion plans: Blue Line to I-271,  Red Line to Great Northern/North Olmsted from Brookpark in I-480 median,  and rail services: all night New Year’s Eve; late night summer rail – those are just a few, there’s plenty more (like his badmouthing the West Shore commuter rail plan behind the scenes).

 

In fairness to Joe, the Red Line Berea extension – planned under Ron Tober -- was killed by Berea NIMBY’s… But let’s not rewrite history and act like JoeC’s an innocent here. Cut me a break…

 

 

… funding is the first step, and that starts with the people who hold the purse strings, who are decidedly NOT RTA (think State Legislature)

JeTDog (6/27/07)

 

But the ball starts rolling with the home transit agency.  And if you have a transit chief who is enthusiastic about rail and expansion –like Ron Tober before Joe -- there is more of a chance consensus can be built and ideas be floated.  But if you have a guy like Calabrese, who has set the tone that, essentially, under his watch no rail will be built, then you get what Cleveland is getting… zilch.  I’ll give you ECP was not Joe’s baby.  Ron Tober championed Dual Hub rail in the corridor and failed.  Tober was torpedoed by the incompetence, infighting and lack of vision among pols.  That stuff about Cleveland or the E. Corridor lacking sufficient density to justify rail expense is merely rear-guard self-serving justification.

 

We had a very good (maybe great) transit chief  Ron Tober, but like so many star athletes for our struggling teams, he left for greener pastures -- Charlotte in 2000, where he’s opening the 1st light rail line and building commuter rail and BRT.  In other words, a lot more than he could accomplish here… Now we’re stuck with Do Nothing Joe who, CTownsFinest is right, wants to convince us he’s doing great things a by a Red Line station refurb every couple years… Big friggin’ deal.

 

Please spare us the: Joe’s a innocent babe-in-the-woods good guy stuck in a tough deal, song & dance.  The people know better.  Those of us who aren’t blinded by B.S., that is…

 

 

(Moved clvlndr's post of 7/7/07 to this thread.... noozer)

 

 

… as far as Joe Calabrese being a "rail hater"... it's a comment I've heard many times, with little hard evidence to back it up, and simply saying something doesn't make it so (would that it did, we'd already have flying cars) JeTDog (6/27/07)

 

OK, here’s some evidence: Calabrese’s admin killed expansion plans: Blue Line to I-271,  Red Line to Great Northern/North Olmsted from Brookpark in I-480 median,  and rail services: all night New Year’s Eve; late night summer rail – those are just a few, there’s plenty more (like his badmouthing the West Shore commuter rail plan behind the scenes).

 

In fairness to Joe, the Red Line Berea extension – planned under Ron Tober -- was killed by Berea NIMBY’s… But let’s not rewrite history and act like JoeC’s an innocent here. Cut me a break…

 

 

… funding is the first step, and that starts with the people who hold the purse strings, who are decidedly NOT RTA (think State Legislature)

JeTDog (6/27/07)

 

But the ball starts rolling with the home transit agency.  And if you have a transit chief who is enthusiastic about rail and expansion –like Ron Tober before Joe -- there is more of a chance consensus can be built and ideas be floated.  But if you have a guy like Calabrese, who has set the tone that, essentially, under his watch no rail will be built, then you get what Cleveland is getting… zilch.  I’ll give you ECP was not Joe’s baby.  Ron Tober championed Dual Hub rail in the corridor and failed.  Tober was torpedoed by the incompetence, infighting and lack of vision among pols.  That stuff about Cleveland or the E. Corridor lacking sufficient density to justify rail expense is merely rear-guard self-serving justification.

 

We had a very good (maybe great) transit chief  Ron Tober, but like so many star athletes for our struggling teams, he left for greener pastures -- Charlotte in 2000, where he’s opening the 1st light rail line and building commuter rail and BRT.  In other words, a lot more than he could accomplish here… Now we’re stuck with Do Nothing Joe who, CTownsFinest is right, wants to convince us he’s doing great things a by a Red Line station refurb every couple years… Big friggin’ deal.

 

Please spare us the: Joe’s a innocent babe-in-the-woods good guy stuck in a tough deal, song & dance.  The people know better.  Those of us who aren’t blinded by B.S., that is…

 

 

 

'scuse me? I don't believe I ever used the "innocent babe-in-the-woods" comment, so please don't put words in my mouth

 

I can't speak for some of the larger projects, since they were before my time here, but the ridership numbers didn't point to continuation of all night New Years Eve and late-night summer rail as being cost effective -- this was not a "witch hunt" decision

 

finally, as far as Ron Tober, it appears you're as much his champion as you accuse me of being a Joe Calabrese apologist, and I would counter to say that just because Tober is there when the project succeeds doesn't mean that he was wholly responsible for, or even contributed to, that success -- there is a very interesting article in this month's Metro Magazine that points to the success of rail in Charlotte while it's failing in Raleigh-Durham; without quoting the article, suffice to say that the Charlotte-Mecklenburg County regional government climate, and the area's general economic vitality (both of which were under way before Tober got there), went a LONG way toward making that project a success

 

what I'll be interested in seeing is how Tober's administration fares (no pun intended) once the line goes into full operation, from an ongoing day-to-day operational standpoint; of course, by then, Tober will likely have moved on to somewhere else

of course, by then, Tober will likely have moved on to somewhere else

 

Hopefully back to Cleveland...

the ridership numbers didn't point to continuation of all night New Years Eve and late-night summer rail as being cost effective

 

Did the cost analysis consider the effect of no service on the occasional rider?

 

If I occasionally have to work late, and cannot predict when, and public transit isn't available at later hours, then I will drive every day. 

 

So by not having late-night rail you probably lose not just the small numbers of riders that ride the trains late every night, but you also lose the occasional late night riders who otherwise would be regular and loyal riders. 

 

RTA will have to work a lot harder to get people to give up their cars than it would to retain regular riders.  Perhaps all night service on New Years isn't warranted, but on a night when excessive drinking is more likely, additional late night service might be a great marketing opportunity, and perhaps an opportunity missed.

the bottom line has been that RTA seems solely concerned about costs.  it is certainly good to balance a budget and live within your means, but you also don't want to lose the occassional or new rider b/c of that tunnel vision.

 

i believe it roughly costs RTA roughly $100 in labor to operate each vehicle for 1 hour.  there are other costs that aren't included (fuel, electricity, maintenance, additional police, etc.).

 

So, to run the rail lines at 1/2 hour headways through the night, you'd need at least 4 or 6 trains operating on the red line, and perhaps 4 or 6 more on blue/green lines, so you're close to $1200/hr to operate the service, not including additional costs.

 

$1200/hr, for roughly 4 hours a night (additional service) = $4800/day

 

so, weekend only expansion to 24 hour service would be between $400-500,000 a year.

365 day, all night expansion would be roughly $1.8 million.

 

knowing these numbers (whatever the exact ones may be), then it becomes easier to either ask for sponsorship (MADD sponsers the late night trains on 4th of july, new years, etc. for $4800 each night, for example, and then also promote the service through advertisements).

 

i don't have ridership numbers for the former late night trains, but i would like RTA / the community explore ways to make this happen (at least on certain nights, or for the summer).  we've seen how downtown businesses/csu/the city has worked to expand trolley service to 11pm, for instance.

I'm not an economist, but my smell test tells me that it cant be that cheap.

 

Hell one of the best systems around (WMATA), that could probably support the ridership still doesn't operate trains past 1am (last I remember, its been a few years)

Do the free "trolleys" still run? I know after their initial extension they were slated to end the service in June.

Do the free "trolleys" still run? I know after their initial extension they were slated to end the service in June.

 

Yep..both the E Line and B Line are still in service, which I assume you are inquiring.  I should know since I ride them just about everyday...and still 100% free too. 

Yep..both the E Line and B Line are still in service, which I assume you are inquiring.  I should know since I ride them just about everyday...and still 100% free too. 

 

but i think that corner alley has backed out (or declined to renew) for future sponsorship.  so, who knows what will happen in the future.  corner alley already had sponsored the trolleys for a while, so hopefully someone steps up.

the bottom line has been that RTA seems solely concerned about costs.  it is certainly good to balance a budget and live within your means, but you also don't want to lose the occassional or new rider b/c of that tunnel vision.

 

i believe it roughly costs RTA roughly $100 in labor to operate each vehicle for 1 hour.  there are other costs that aren't included (fuel, electricity, maintenance, additional police, etc.).

 

So, to run the rail lines at 1/2 hour headways through the night, you'd need at least 4 or 6 trains operating on the red line, and perhaps 4 or 6 more on blue/green lines, so you're close to $1200/hr to operate the service, not including additional costs.

 

$1200/hr, for roughly 4 hours a night (additional service) = $4800/day

 

so, weekend only expansion to 24 hour service would be between $400-500,000 a year.

365 day, all night expansion would be roughly $1.8 million.

 

knowing these numbers (whatever the exact ones may be), then it becomes easier to either ask for sponsorship (MADD sponsers the late night trains on 4th of july, new years, etc. for $4800 each night, for example, and then also promote the service through advertisements).

 

i don't have ridership numbers for the former late night trains, but i would like RTA / the community explore ways to make this happen (at least on certain nights, or for the summer).  we've seen how downtown businesses/csu/the city has worked to expand trolley service to 11pm, for instance.

 

Exactly, urbanlife!  You hit the nail on the head...

 

As I keep saying, while RTA isn't in biz to deliberately lose $$, it tends to forget that it's a taxpayer-funded service and not a corporation... So we see the hard numbers of a urbanlife's cost-to-benefit analysis (are these good numbers? I have no reason to doubt them) So how about, just the New Year's --- one night per year Mr. Calabrese! -- alone.  And with crowded conditions downtown, esp on warm weekend nights like we've been having -- esp on the Flats westbank where the Powerhouse and Shooters parking lots are packed to the gills (... and despite being on the West Bank, the Powerhouse is just a 5 min stroll over the Center Street bridge from the Settler's Landing WL Rapid station ... Shooters is only about 3 mins beyond that... Please explain to me how it's so God awful, break-the-bank expensive where by Calabrese felt forced to cut a mere 2 hour Rapid extension of service on just 2 nights per week (Fri & Sat), and even then, only btw Memorial Day and Labor Day...

 

... Let's stop making excuses for Calabrese's RTA when there are none...

Hell, I'd just like them to wash the trains once in a while. Maybe this morning's rain (the first in about a month!) will spare RTA the expense of having to wash them.

After my recent visit to Cleveland, I only wish we had the nice buses you have.  I have been on 3 old crappy cta buses this week that have broken down.  One was on my way to work.... on Lakeshore drive at the time, and 70 people had to get off and wait for another one while 60 mph traffic zoomed by.  Then that night on my way home, the bus just died and we had to get off and find another way home.  That's twice in one day.  I have been on other buses that have had to stop on the drive and pick people up that were stranded.  RTA really has their shit together when it comes to replacing buses.

 

 

the bottom line has been that RTA seems solely concerned about costs.  it is certainly good to balance a budget and live within your means, but you also don't want to lose the occassional or new rider b/c of that tunnel vision.

 

by law, RTA has to run a balanced budget.

a few points to raise...

 

while Corner Alley did decide to pursue other sponsorship opportunities, the trolleys will continue to be free for the time being, as the new sponsorship is coming from the City of Cleveland (some of the trolleys are already decorated with the new artwork)... I believe it's one of Mayor Jackson's youth anti-violence campaigns that's taken up the mantle

 

metrocity, if I were you, I'd complain to the powers-that-be at CTA... a broken-down bus is one thing, but NO WAY should passengers be waiting on the side of a highway for the replacement... you wait IN the bus, unless there's a compelling reason (such as fire  :-o ) not to

 

3231, I was about to raise that same point... also, if anyone wants to view RTA's recent budget history, and their planned 2008 budget, the preliminaries have been posted at http://www.riderta.com/nu_newsroom_releases.asp?listingid=1065

 

urbanlife, current cost/hour of service is estimated at $103.05 for 2007, increasing to an estimated $105.63 in 2008; while this is defined as total operating expenditures/total hours of service, and thus includes more than just personnel expense (although personnel is the bulk of the cost), one can't necessarily go backwards and say that each additional hour can be costed (?) at the same rate, as off-hours service may prove to be more expensive (due to greater expense per employee, even with fewer employees -- third shift carries a premium), and could actually drive up the average cost per hour

 

also, clvlndr, your observations about the full parking lots at Shooters & Powerhouse won't necessarily translate into train riders -- we'd all LIKE them to, but the average sheep is lazy enough that walking across the Center Street Bridge wastes time that they could use sucking down another flavor-of-the-month

 

CH Jake, you raise an excellent point about the incremental loss in ridership, which is something every transit agency struggles with -- unfortunately, real butts in the seats speak way louder than potential ones... yes, it's a chicken & egg problem, and one that I don't think there's any easy solution for in our tight economic times

also, clvlndr, your observations about the full parking lots at Shooters & Powerhouse won't necessarily translate into train riders -- we'd all LIKE them to, but the average sheep is lazy enough that walking across the Center Street Bridge wastes time that they could use sucking down another flavor-of-the-month  - JeTDoG

 

I don't doubt that's true; also, at the moment, crossing the great Cuyahoga on foot isn't attractive late at night, esp since our wise City fathers (and mothers) haven't seen fit to light the path to Settlers Landing and make it more attractive... At the very least, I'd settle for late night, weekend rail service over the older/regular lines, holding off on the Waterfront line until, at least, Wolstein's development is done... There's plenty of action in the WHD and, now, Gateway/E.4th to warrant such service out of Tower City which sits between both these nodes, about 3 mins walking from each.  Urbanlife is correct: be it MADD or other such groups, I can think of fewer better public services for RTA than to reduce drunk driver injuries and fatalities -- both would be greatly reduced by direct rapid rides to their doors or, at least, to the car -- on board trains where they could sleep off the evening's fun before a short drive home.

And while I'm on RTA beefs, here's a few:

 

- why crowded 1-car Red Line trains during the day, when more and more people are riding trains.   Yesterday, a car in from the airport was packed -- with me fumbling w/ a suitcase and had to stand for a mom & toddler.  By the time we reached West Blvd, it was unbearable -- so many bikes and baby carriages, you could hardly move... I've seen others like this.  Why?  I can't believe RTA is saving all that much by doing this, to the horrible convenience of riders.  1 man/woman can drive a 2-car train.  And what's worse is, because of the increased daytime riders, RTA now (wisely) mans its Red Line station booths all day (at least, it appears that way) other than just at rush hour like before... Not only that, I've seen RTA personnel employed at the line's end (airport, in this case) who's strictly hired to "cut" the trains and re-couple them in 3s and 4s for the dead-head ride back to E. 55th (there's another RTA 'cost-saver' in itself, ... right?).  Again, where's the cost savings in this?  Esp when its so horribly inconvenient to riders...

 

... but who the hell cares about riders?... esp when employ comfort is paramount while riders be damned... Evidence:

 

Again, yesterday, I hopped off to check out the new W. 117th station (which is nice, but should have an escalator)... But there was no AC.  It was a sweltering and oppressive in that station as an auto with its windows rolled up that morning.  But when I had to reinsert my card in W. 117th's new ticket booth, the guy moved a metal piece in front of his window cut and all that nice AC from w/in rushed out and enveloped my hand.  Nice for my hand, but the rest of me?  ... not much different for the other oppressed commuters who rushed, gasping, through the station seeking, er, relief outside... (btw, it was reading 91 degrees at the time)... and it was no diff at West Blvd, where I was dropped after a lovely meal at Pier W.  Seems AC in Rapid stations is a no-no; at least, until some elderly person croaks w/in b/c of the heat -- here's hoping that doesn't happen before change arrives... I hope.

^hey at least you guys have something covering your head during the winter/rain. On the green line, we get a nice pretty bus shelter. Singular, holding two to three people (not exaggerating for those who don't ride the green)

Here's some photos of the new station at West 117th Street and Madison Avenue at the Cleveland-Lakewood border. RTA's new name for the station is the Highland Square at West 117th. As you can see, contractors are still putting the finishing touches on it. The formal grand opening ceremony is scheduled for October, if I remember right.

 

All of these photos are mine, except for the first two which were taken by Jerry Masek of RTA.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Hope you liked the pictures!

looks nice.  KJP what do you think?

I thought the station building itself was pretty well designed and very attractive. I love the high ceilings and exposed beams. Too bad there's no escalator to the platform, but I can understand why (lack of room for stairs, escalator and passageway to the elevator -- you can see the problem in the stairwell photo; plus the escalator is an energy hog even though European stations use motion sensors to activate escalators when someone approaches).

 

But I heard bus drivers crabbing about it as they lay over between runs. Specifically, they didn't like the location and tightness of the bus loop. The big buses I saw did have trouble getting past the circulators parked in front of the station's doors.

OK..

 

I just wondered why the overhangs (at all red line stations) aren't extended over the tracks to protect passengers from the weather.

 

Isn't the escalator directly up to the protected space, with seating?

 

Stairs and elevators are all we need.  We don't need to waste precious $$$ on escalators.  Maybe it's b/c I'm a "baby" as some of you have said  :wink: j/k and have more energy (again, j/k) but it's good exercise!  Plus in Chicago, I'd say their escalators work 25% of the time so it's even a bigger waste of $ to fix them.  It's always a "treat" when they're actually working!

OK..

 

I just wondered why the overhangs (at all red line stations) aren't extended over the tracks to protect passengers from the weather.

 

They kinda get in the way of the train pantographs' reaching the overhead electric wires.

 

Isn't the escalator directly up to the protected space, with seating?

 

 

It used to be, but the escalator was removed during reconstruction and not put back. If you see the photo of the stairwell area, that's where the escalator was (on the right side). It was replaced with a walkway to the elevator (in the background).

OK..

 

I just wondered why the overhangs (at all red line stations) aren't extended over the tracks to protect passengers from the weather.

 

They kinda get in the way of the train pantographs' reaching the overhead electric wires.

 

Isn't the escalator directly up to the protected space, with seating?

 

 

It used to be, but the escalator was removed during reconstruction and not put back. If you see the photo of the stairwell area, that's where the escalator was (on the right side). It was replaced with a walkway to the elevator (in the background).

 

Not if that was incorporated in the design.  I think they could have designed them to be apart of the canapy.  like in the flats.

 

in regards to the station itself, I've never gotten off at any station on the westside, except w. 25 Street or brookpark, so I don't know what any look like on the inside.

Not if that was incorporated in the design.  I think they could have designed them to be apart of the canapy.  like in the flats.

 

Ah, I see. There's a clearance limitation with the adjacent Norfolk Southern mainline next to the tracks at West 117. RTA was able to build a canopy over the Red Line tracks at West Park because it had the lateral clearances to do it.

 

There is also a larger canopy at the Triskett station. But RTA isn't building palaces like the West Park or Triskett stations anymore. Each of those rebuilding projects cost in excess of $10 million. The West 117th Station cost less than $5 million.

looked fine to me.  I took the train to the airport from university circle and it was clean, quick and no reroutes!  I like the look of the newer stations.  It should make the experience much better to the general public.

It appears as though a couple of the glass panes at the W. 25th st station have been vandalized.  I was on it a few weeks a go and two panes were shattered.  People just have no respect for anything anymore...

^based on how quickly they ever have fixed any of the shelters on the green/blue line, you'll have those back in 2037

It appears as though a couple of the glass panes at the W. 25th st station have been vandalized.  I was on it a few weeks a go and two panes were shattered.  People just have no respect for anything anymore...

 

the bus stop at the end of my street when I was a kid was almost always shattered.  They'd replace it, and it'd be shattered a week later.  That was about 20 years ago, so this is a time-honored tradition... nothing new!

I still hate those vandalizing pig f*ckers.

I hear Joe Calabrese was on 1100 AM recently on a morning program.  The host apparently tried very hard to bad mouth the entire Euclid Corridor project, but according to the person who listened to the program and told me about it, Calabrese remained calm and responded rather well. 

RTA has no plans to expand rapid-train service - Compass

Monday, July 23, 2007

Sarah Hollander

Plain Dealer Columnist

 

Question: Have you heard of any plans to extend rapid trains towards growth areas like Avon or Independence? I would guess that there are many people that would like to park their cars and ride past the backups. - Mike Bressler, Sandusky

 

At this point, there's not enough demand, traffic congestion or money for the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority to pursue rapid-train extensions, spokesman Chad Self said. RTA opened its last rail extension - the Waterfront Line downtown - 11 years ago.

 

 

Transportation-related questions and comments may be e-mailed to [email protected], faxed to 216-999-6366, mailed to The Compass c/o The Plain Dealer, 1801 Superior Ave., Cleveland 44114 or phoned to 216-999-4816. Correspondence chosen for publication may be edited for brevity and clarity.

 

© 2007 The Plain Dealer

 

 

No demand!?  Did Self poll everybody along potential extension routes?  When is rail built based on demand?  Is a transit agency selling a product?  Any extension of rail is per se to a community that's never had it before.  So how could any community w/o rail know that it wants something it never had?   Many GM/Detroit types were saying LA residents had no demand for rail and loved their cars.  Now, Angelos are in love with transit; downtown (and many hoods) is growing in size and density. 

 

Money?  How can RTA use that excuse?  How did we find $230M for ECP?  Transit agencies apply to the federal govt to finance the bulk of capital projects like rail, so what the hell is Self (obviously a Calabrese flunky) talking about? 

 

Not enough traffic?  I wish this guy would inch along with me during rush hour on I-271, 77, 480 or up Cedar Hill… Rail transit is designed to shape positive growth in cities.  St. Louis is smaller and losing population faster than Cleveland and, yet, they’ve just built, and are rapidly expanding (well past ours) rail.  So what’s their secret?  We have an derelict industrial wasteland of a lakefront with rapid rail – the Waterfront Line – at its doorstep.  High density could be developed a la Chicago … if we had the will and wanted to.  But obviously, we don’t. 

 

Only in Cleveland…

 

It’s scary our vaunted transit officials could peddle such BS and not be challenged … not even on this UO board.  I guess we’re all a bunch of lemmings that will swallow whatever crap our officials sling at us... I do applaud noozer for posting this article, though...

 

clvlndr, you're post is valid and I would love to see you send that to our county commissioners and RTAs GM as I agreed with you until you wrote...

 

Only in Cleveland…

 

I know you're passionate about changing the city for the better, but you know that statement is far from the truth.

 

It says "not enough" not "no demand"

^ Yeah, you're right MyTwoSense... I love this town but I just get so friggin' frustrated when we volutarily hold ourselves back in cases like this.

GREAT WAY OF PUTTING IT: "voluntarily holding ourselves back."

 

What ridership study has RTA conducted of the West Shore Corridor? What capital cost analysis of various options for implementing service has been done by them? None on either count. That is what we are trying to do -- get the answers. But lack of information apparently has not stopped RTA from forming their own opinion about rail.

 

As for traffic congestion, it's is a lousy rationale for building rail or other transit -- it puts transit in the sloppy-seconds role. All successful transportation projects were built on their own merits to serve public policy goals and given the opportunity to shape their own supportive land uses. Building rail as a relief valve for highways is a sure way to limit the usefulness of transit to only a rush-hour service, and not a way to build a transit-based lifestyle that can truly reduce vehicle-miles traveled, curb urban sprawl, reduce energy use and cut ozone precursor emissions.

 

Rant off....

More studies.THere goes more of my money. Hell I going to open a company that only does silly old studies.

Your company wouldn't last 10 seconds against all the other well-established engineering companies that actually have a clue as to why studies are needed. And, if federal funds are sought, a series of studies are required by LAW.

 

OK, tell me, how much will it cost? What will the ridership/revenues be? How many train frequencies are needed? What does the operational analysis say about the ability of commuter rail to interface with freight traffic? Where will extra capacity/siding tracks be needed? How much train equipment is needed? Where should the stations go?

 

Would you rather find out by just putting trains on the tracks and finding out the hard way? By having trains scheduled at times when people don't want them? By causing conflicts with existing freight traffic and having trains late all the time? By having to relocate stations that were already built in the wrong places with your tax dollars?

 

With your apparent lack of desire to plan ahead, I'd love to see what your finances look like.

There seems to be a mindset in Cleveland that to study something is wasting time and money better put to use elsewhere.  It smacks against the instant gratification philosophy.  "Do we want it?  Hell yea we want it. So build it already!"  I think there is also a feeling that people with money and interest in projects can sway the people doing the study and perhaps that most studies done in Cleve aren't ever independent or objective or will take forever to complete.  Finally, there's no assurance when the study is complete that the pols will even act on the results of the study.

 

On a different note I took a look at RTA website to get a look at the structure of the organization and came across their 2025 plan.  I was struck that they take the path in regards to rail expansion that since they have no clue what is going to happen with the land around Cleveland and its suburbs in the next 15+ years they have no thoughts about rail expansion at this time.  I wonder when that time is going to come when they will understand what is happening with the land use..  Will there be a little bell that goes off in someone's head?  Will they then issue a rail expansion directive?  I can see with the amount of projects that are on the board from the various developers that a year or 2 wait to come up with rail expansion wasn't a bad idea but I think they need to get on the ball now and start realizing the potential of expansion.  There have been enough projects announced throughout the region to have an idea of what land use is going to look like in the next 10 years.  Now they should figure out who to partner with in helping the developers achieve their goals not sit around as uninterested bystanders.

I agree w/ KJP-at least I think this is what he's saying:

 

Build rapid transit to create a 24/7 vibrant inner city community--not to "relieve" congestion b/c quite frankly, our rush hour is a joke.  I'm not picking on CLE and NEO but it can be WAY worse!  Step outside of NEO for one day and you'll no longer complain about rush hour traffic on our freeways.  ONCE in a while it's bad but it's not a daily occurence.  And when it does occur, it's only for a couple hours max unless it's some horrible accident or blizzard.  Try driving on any Chicago expressway on a Friday or when it drizzles and you'll see.  I don't think it's ever taken me 1.5-2 hrs. to drive to Strongsville from downtown but a 1.5-2 hr drive out to Ohare from the Loop in a common occurence.

 

More trains,busses,trams,etc. should be available to accentuate the already existing density  in Cleveland and other inner ring communities.  Rapid transit is a catalyst for a development, not a cure for sprawl.  If anything shouldn't it help contain the core population?  Now I know I'm lazier??is this a word? than Mayday when it comes to being car-free, but if there were a few more train lines in the city, I'd consider throwing in the keys for some $$$!

i'm not opposed to studies, especially when FED $$$ require them, however my questions are:  What current studies are going on?  And, do we always need federal $$?  The Feds have shown preference to fund traffic congestion (and by proxy, air pollution) initiatives.  Cleveland will rarely qualify on traffic congestion.  So, how are we getting access to additional funds?  Who is lobbying?

 

I view the impact/environmental/ridership/feasibility type studies as a hedge bet to the future.  will all of them come to fruition?  no.  but if we aren't continuously conducting studies (lets say 1 or 2 corridors or "big" ideas a year or 18 months), then i think we are letting ourselves down.

 

does anyone have the list of CURRENT Federal studies that are going on for the rail projects?  i know that there was no funding for ORDC.  Is commuter rail study funded?  Cuy Valley service to cleveland study funded?  and when does a study done for federal funding expire?