The RTA had CNG buses in the 90's with the 9000 series of buses and had the largest indoor CNG station in North America in 1995 with the Harvard station. Over the years though starting with the 9900 series RTA has switched to the Diesel powered buses and Diesel powered "Clean Air Buses" (2200-2800 series) with the exception of the healthline bus which is a hybrid. Even the newest New Flyer articulated bus for Triskett is station is Diesel powered. What happened to GCRTA going the CNG route? It seems like it's still a popular option throughout bus agencies, especially with Columbus replacing it's fleet gradually with CNG buses.

PD reports on Red Line overhaul today

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2013/01/rta_red_line_trains_to_get_a_w.html

Wish the stop indicators were being replaced the ones now are terribly outdated but I am happy to see the overhaul taking place it is much needed. I would also had like to see the seats lined up across the wall to satisfy the spacing for taller riders (Me! I can't even get my knee inside the seat) Hopefully though either with less seats they can be spaced apart more or be on the new rapid fleet whenever they get ordered. I do like the replacement of the seats in favor of the same scheme as the blue line though and new floors etc. My main question/concern is will the new cloth seats be able to withstand the wear and tear of the heavy rail usage compared to the Green/Blue line.

 

My main question/concern is will the new cloth seats be able to withstand the wear and tear of the heavy rail usage compared to the Green/Blue line.

 

Should be. The Health line has cloth seats which are doing fine. And the Blue/Green Line actually has similar ridership to the red line when you account for route mileage.

Should be. The Health line has cloth seats which are doing fine. And the Blue/Green Line actually has similar ridership to the red line when you account for route mileage.

 

Why would you account for mileage?  A butt in a seat (wear and tear) is a butt in a seat, regardless of how far it travels.  A more meaningful metric might be average number of riders per available seat over the course of the day.

 

My main question/concern is will the new cloth seats be able to withstand the wear and tear of the heavy rail usage compared to the Green/Blue line.

Back when I worked adjacent to the (then autonomous) Maple Heights Transit garage, I was told vandalism was a much bigger issue than wear and tear, and MHTS had fewer such problems than the general RTA.

Sorry, my quote function does not work...

 

In response to the question about CNG at RTA, the majority of buses in the fleet now use "low-sulfur diesel fuel," which is far better for air quality than the former diesel-fueled buses. This is also known as "clean diesel". At the time of the switch, RTA did an extensive cost comparison of CNG vs low-sulfur diesel fuel. As I recall, CNG was only slightly cleaner (as far as air quality), but the cost difference was great. CNG buses were far more expensive to buy and to maintain. RTA made a decision at that time to use clean diesel, because it was good for both for the environment and for the budget.  I do not have easy access to these numbers now.

 

My main question/concern is will the new cloth seats be able to withstand the wear and tear of the heavy rail usage compared to the Green/Blue line.

 

Should be. The Health line has cloth seats which are doing fine. And the Blue/Green Line actually has similar ridership to the red line when you account for route mileage.

Good point about the Healthline though the seats are not as plush as the Green line. The green line seems to have more padding than the Healthline and sees more amounts of people get on and off than the Suburb lines. This is a true indicator of how will the seats hold up, like someone said route mileage is fine but if the same people are on beginning to end then of course the seats will hold up. This makes me wonder will RTA get seats with the same cushion level as the HL or the Green/Blue line? All they said was the pattern would be the same. You also may factor in that the HL has active cameras watching, which could deter unruly behavior and vandalism.

<u>Ride Review</u>:

 

A few notes from my most recent RTA trip today (I commute suburb to suburb, and thus do not ride RTA very much anymore, but it is my preferred means of getting downtown when I need to.)  The trip was from the W.65/Lorain Red Line station to E.6/Euclid and back, leaving approximately 10:45am today and returning about an hour later.

 

I do not mean to sound unnecessarily critical.  I understand there are many fine and dedicated RTA employees doing the best they can with limited funding.  However, in just this single trip, I could identify a number of things that would deter a less determined rider, yet, seemingly, could be fairly easily and inexpensively remedied.

 

1.  "No Unecessary Talking To Operator."  Why is it deemed unecessary [sic] to spell words correctly when attempting to communicate with the public?  This may be a post-literate culture, but is it really necessary to broadcast this fact to visitors from other places where the average person who communicates with the public *does* know how to spell multisyllabic words?

 

2.  Why would it take almost 15 minutes for a train to get from West 65 to Tower City, making one intermediate stop?  They are only about 3 miles apart.  A competent high school athlete could run faster.  Are there track problems I was not aware of?  Might this have been to keep a schedule?  (However, if the latter is the case, please see below.)

 

3.  The HealthLine trip from Tower City to East 6 had to stop at Ontario, East 4 and East 6, for what seemed to be the full duration of each cycle.  I though the light timing was supposed to have been settled by now?  I realize that may not be within RTA's control, but it would have an obvious and huge impact on both the performance and cost of operating the HealthLine.

 

4.  I hoped to use the HealthLine to get from E. 6 back to Tower City, but it remained stuck at East 9th for some reason, and after waiting a couple cycles I decided to walk instead.  It still had not reached East Roadway at the point I did.  Not sure what that was all about.

 

5.  The Red Line trains in both directions did not display any direction.  They simply said "Red Line."  It would have been more helpful, especially for riders unfamiliar with the system, for them to have displayed Stokes and Brookpark respectively, or even "Eastbound" and "Westbound."

 

6.  When attempting to take the Red Line back to West 65, I was informed by another rider that the train had left several minutes early.  The next train did arrive in about 17 minutes as expected and operated without incident.  I had always been under the impression that buses and trains never leave early from points listed in published schedules, but either that fellow rider was mistaken, or this particular one did.

 

I am willing to deal with minor annoyances like this from time to time, and, obviously, there are those who have little choice as to whether they will do so or not.  But there are many potential riders who would have been turned off by any of these items, never mind all of them in the same trip.  Spelling things correctly, sticking to schedules absent extenuating circumstances, working with the city/state DOT to synchronize lights, etc. are all things that could go a long way to making RTA marketable to many people who would not be willing to consider using it today.

^A lot of your post is complete BS, but I'll debunk one of your points.... I take the rapid downtown from W65th to TC daily and it HAS NEVER taken 15min.

^A lot of your post is complete BS, but I'll debunk one of your points.... I take the rapid downtown from W65th to TC daily and it HAS NEVER taken 15min.

 

This one did.  I'm perfectly willing to entertain the possibility that my experiences this morning were atypical.  I certainly hope that to be the case.  But nothing about my post was BS.  I have much better things to do than to post BS, about anything.  I posted these things with the idea of trying to be helpful.  If you feel a need to question my integrity for doing so, then please feel free to give yourself a chainsaw enema.  Preferably sideways.

Thanks jtadams for posting your experience.  Maybe a little heavy on the snark, but I'm sure RTA always appreciates feedback, especially concrete, correctable issues, like the misspelled sign.  FYI, the on-train directional signs are something that folks here have raised many times and hopefully they'll be addressed in the upcoming Red Line trainset refurbishment.

 

Also, for future trips: I'm sure you noticed that the walk from Tower City to East 6th street is only a quarter of a mile (literally).  Forget high school athletes, any minimally mobile adult should be able to cover that distance on foot in just a few minutes, so walking is almost always faster than waiting for and riding a bus :)

<u>Ride Review</u>:

 

A few notes from my most recent RTA trip today (I commute suburb to suburb, and thus do not ride RTA very much anymore, but it is my preferred means of getting downtown when I need to.)  The trip was from the W.65/Lorain Red Line station to E.6/Euclid and back, leaving approximately 10:45am today and returning about an hour later.

 

I do not mean to sound unnecessarily critical.  I understand there are many fine and dedicated RTA employees doing the best they can with limited funding.  However, in just this single trip, I could identify a number of things that would deter a less determined rider, yet, seemingly, could be fairly easily and inexpensively remedied.

 

1.  "No Unecessary Talking To Operator."  Why is it deemed unecessary [sic] to spell words correctly when attempting to communicate with the public?  This may be a post-literate culture, but is it really necessary to broadcast this fact to visitors from other places where the average person who communicates with the public *does* know how to spell multisyllabic words?

 

2.  Why would it take almost 15 minutes for a train to get from West 65 to Tower City, making one intermediate stop?  They are only about 3 miles apart.  A competent high school athlete could run faster.  Are there track problems I was not aware of?  Might this have been to keep a schedule?  (However, if the latter is the case, please see below.)

 

3.  The HealthLine trip from Tower City to East 6 had to stop at Ontario, East 4 and East 6, for what seemed to be the full duration of each cycle.  I though the light timing was supposed to have been settled by now?  I realize that may not be within RTA's control, but it would have an obvious and huge impact on both the performance and cost of operating the HealthLine.

 

4.  I hoped to use the HealthLine to get from E. 6 back to Tower City, but it remained stuck at East 9th for some reason, and after waiting a couple cycles I decided to walk instead.  It still had not reached East Roadway at the point I did.  Not sure what that was all about.

 

5.  The Red Line trains in both directions did not display any direction.  They simply said "Red Line."  It would have been more helpful, especially for riders unfamiliar with the system, for them to have displayed Stokes and Brookpark respectively, or even "Eastbound" and "Westbound."

 

6.  When attempting to take the Red Line back to West 65, I was informed by another rider that the train had left several minutes early.  The next train did arrive in about 17 minutes as expected and operated without incident.  I had always been under the impression that buses and trains never leave early from points listed in published schedules, but either that fellow rider was mistaken, or this particular one did.

 

I am willing to deal with minor annoyances like this from time to time, and, obviously, there are those who have little choice as to whether they will do so or not.  But there are many potential riders who would have been turned off by any of these items, never mind all of them in the same trip.  Spelling things correctly, sticking to schedules absent extenuating circumstances, working with the city/state DOT to synchronize lights, etc. are all things that could go a long way to making RTA marketable to many people who would not be willing to consider using it today.

You just took a bad train, I ride almost everyday from Downtown to East Cleveland (Windermere) and it only takes 17 minutes. The only time i had a slow train ride was when i was riding to Tower City and a train was stuck in the path of my train, other than that i have never had an issue. The HL problem with the signal issue is well noted and there is no need to address it. I agree with the signs reading Red Line all the time I don't know why they changed this but the new way may make it harder for visitors trying to find out where to go.

<u>Ride Review</u>:

 

A few notes from my most recent RTA trip today (I commute suburb to suburb, and thus do not ride RTA very much anymore, but it is my preferred means of getting downtown when I need to.)  The trip was from the W.65/Lorain Red Line station to E.6/Euclid and back, leaving approximately 10:45am today and returning about an hour later.

 

I do not mean to sound unnecessarily critical.  I understand there are many fine and dedicated RTA employees doing the best they can with limited funding.  However, in just this single trip, I could identify a number of things that would deter a less determined rider, yet, seemingly, could be fairly easily and inexpensively remedied.

 

1.  "No Unecessary Talking To Operator."  Why is it deemed unecessary [sic] to spell words correctly when attempting to communicate with the public?  This may be a post-literate culture, but is it really necessary to broadcast this fact to visitors from other places where the average person who communicates with the public *does* know how to spell multisyllabic words?

 

2.  Why would it take almost 15 minutes for a train to get from West 65 to Tower City, making one intermediate stop?  They are only about 3 miles apart.  A competent high school athlete could run faster.  Are there track problems I was not aware of?  Might this have been to keep a schedule?  (However, if the latter is the case, please see below.)

 

3.  The HealthLine trip from Tower City to East 6 had to stop at Ontario, East 4 and East 6, for what seemed to be the full duration of each cycle.  I though the light timing was supposed to have been settled by now?  I realize that may not be within RTA's control, but it would have an obvious and huge impact on both the performance and cost of operating the HealthLine.

 

4.  I hoped to use the HealthLine to get from E. 6 back to Tower City, but it remained stuck at East 9th for some reason, and after waiting a couple cycles I decided to walk instead.  It still had not reached East Roadway at the point I did.  Not sure what that was all about.

 

5.  The Red Line trains in both directions did not display any direction.  They simply said "Red Line."  It would have been more helpful, especially for riders unfamiliar with the system, for them to have displayed Stokes and Brookpark respectively, or even "Eastbound" and "Westbound."

 

6.  When attempting to take the Red Line back to West 65, I was informed by another rider that the train had left several minutes early.  The next train did arrive in about 17 minutes as expected and operated without incident.  I had always been under the impression that buses and trains never leave early from points listed in published schedules, but either that fellow rider was mistaken, or this particular one did.

 

I am willing to deal with minor annoyances like this from time to time, and, obviously, there are those who have little choice as to whether they will do so or not.  But there are many potential riders who would have been turned off by any of these items, never mind all of them in the same trip.  Spelling things correctly, sticking to schedules absent extenuating circumstances, working with the city/state DOT to synchronize lights, etc. are all things that could go a long way to making RTA marketable to many people who would not be willing to consider using it today.

You just took a bad train, I ride almost everyday from Downtown to East Cleveland (Windermere) and it only takes 17 minutes. The only time i had a slow train ride was when i was riding to Tower City and a train was stuck in the path of my train, other than that i have never had an issue. The HL problem with the signal issue is well noted and there is no need to address it. I agree with the signs reading Red Line all the time I don't know why they changed this but the new way may make it harder for visitors trying to find out where to go.

 

Only 17 minutes! Thats got to be half the time the healthline takes! I do believe the east side red line travel is faster though. Doesn't the west side trains have to travel around 5 mph around the S curve currently?

 

Also how long do you think the trip from tower city to the new little Italy station will be?

Thanks jtadams for posting your experience.  Maybe a little heavy on the snark, but I'm sure RTA always appreciates feedback, especially concrete, correctable issues, like the misspelled sign.  FYI, the on-train directional signs are something that folks here have raised many times and hopefully they'll be addressed in the upcoming Red Line trainset refurbishment.

 

Also, for future trips: I'm sure you noticed that the walk from Tower City to East 6th street is only a quarter of a mile (literally).  Forget high school athletes, any minimally mobile adult should be able to cover that distance on foot in just a few minutes, so walking is almost always faster than waiting for and riding a bus :)

 

Very welcome, and sorry about the snark.  Glad to know the directional signs are being addressed.  And of course I would walk a quarter mile, or a full mile, if that were the fastest way, but it should not be assumed that every RTA rider is able to do so, particularly in cold or icy weather.  The light timing at those two intersections at least would have delayed me equally whether my final destination were E. 6 or E. 276, and the further it extends, obviously, the worse the impact on anyone going that far.

<u>Ride Review</u>:

 

A few notes from my most recent RTA trip today (I commute suburb to suburb, and thus do not ride RTA very much anymore, but it is my preferred means of getting downtown when I need to.)  The trip was from the W.65/Lorain Red Line station to E.6/Euclid and back, leaving approximately 10:45am today and returning about an hour later.

 

I do not mean to sound unnecessarily critical.  I understand there are many fine and dedicated RTA employees doing the best they can with limited funding.  However, in just this single trip, I could identify a number of things that would deter a less determined rider, yet, seemingly, could be fairly easily and inexpensively remedied.

 

1.  "No Unecessary Talking To Operator."  Why is it deemed unecessary [sic] to spell words correctly when attempting to communicate with the public?  This may be a post-literate culture, but is it really necessary to broadcast this fact to visitors from other places where the average person who communicates with the public *does* know how to spell multisyllabic words?

 

2.  Why would it take almost 15 minutes for a train to get from West 65 to Tower City, making one intermediate stop?  They are only about 3 miles apart.  A competent high school athlete could run faster.  Are there track problems I was not aware of?  Might this have been to keep a schedule?  (However, if the latter is the case, please see below.)

 

3.  The HealthLine trip from Tower City to East 6 had to stop at Ontario, East 4 and East 6, for what seemed to be the full duration of each cycle.  I though the light timing was supposed to have been settled by now?  I realize that may not be within RTA's control, but it would have an obvious and huge impact on both the performance and cost of operating the HealthLine.

 

4.  I hoped to use the HealthLine to get from E. 6 back to Tower City, but it remained stuck at East 9th for some reason, and after waiting a couple cycles I decided to walk instead.  It still had not reached East Roadway at the point I did.  Not sure what that was all about.

 

5.  The Red Line trains in both directions did not display any direction.  They simply said "Red Line."  It would have been more helpful, especially for riders unfamiliar with the system, for them to have displayed Stokes and Brookpark respectively, or even "Eastbound" and "Westbound."

 

6.  When attempting to take the Red Line back to West 65, I was informed by another rider that the train had left several minutes early.  The next train did arrive in about 17 minutes as expected and operated without incident.  I had always been under the impression that buses and trains never leave early from points listed in published schedules, but either that fellow rider was mistaken, or this particular one did.

 

I am willing to deal with minor annoyances like this from time to time, and, obviously, there are those who have little choice as to whether they will do so or not.  But there are many potential riders who would have been turned off by any of these items, never mind all of them in the same trip.  Spelling things correctly, sticking to schedules absent extenuating circumstances, working with the city/state DOT to synchronize lights, etc. are all things that could go a long way to making RTA marketable to many people who would not be willing to consider using it today.

You just took a bad train, I ride almost everyday from Downtown to East Cleveland (Windermere) and it only takes 17 minutes. The only time i had a slow train ride was when i was riding to Tower City and a train was stuck in the path of my train, other than that i have never had an issue. The HL problem with the signal issue is well noted and there is no need to address it. I agree with the signs reading Red Line all the time I don't know why they changed this but the new way may make it harder for visitors trying to find out where to go.

 

Only 17 minutes! Thats got to be half the time the healthline takes! I do believe the east side red line travel is faster though. Doesn't the west side trains have to travel around 5 mph around the S curve currently?

 

Also how long do you think the trip from tower city to the new little Italy station will be?

Yeah i know thats why when I'm going to Windermere I don't even take the healthline unless I absolutely have to because its soooo slow. I'm not sure about the S-Curve I'm only an east side rider but I would say about 12 minutes to get to the Little Italy station.

I've noticed that Healthline busses will intentionally stall at stations if they are ahead of schedule (especially in the evening).  Also, between public square and e.9th, there frequently are traffic conditions that block the bus lane.  Maybe that explains some of what you experienced.

Yeah i know thats why when I'm going to Windermere I don't even take the healthline unless I absolutely have to because its soooo slow. I'm not sure about the S-Curve I'm only an east side rider but I would say about 12 minutes to get to the Little Italy station.

 

Thanks, that time is great. A few months ago I took a ride from Tower City to Uptown on the Healthline around noon and it took about 30 minutes. So the 12 minute red line ride will be a great addition. Will be closer and much nicer than the current East 120th station.

You just took a bad train, I ride almost everyday from Downtown to East Cleveland (Windermere) and it only takes 17 minutes. The only time i had a slow train ride was when i was riding to Tower City and a train was stuck in the path of my train, other than that i have never had an issue. The HL problem with the signal issue is well noted and there is no need to address it. I agree with the signs reading Red Line all the time I don't know why they changed this but the new way may make it harder for visitors trying to find out where to go.

 

Regular riders know to expect delays on the S curve, until they finally fix it (I understand that is planned for this year . . . it will be inconvenient for a time but a very good thing once finished).  But W. 65 to downtown has usually been much faster in my experience, and today, for whatever reason, it wasn't.  If there was a track or scheduling issue or a breakdown ahead that really couldn't be avoided, then a short heads up from the operator would be really nice.  Even better would be some way to radio operators of connecting services so that, within reason, they could adjust their departure to wait for transferring riders.  To me, that is an important step toward making a "hub and spoke" type of service work reliably.  E.g., if the Blue Line and #5 (Chagrin) bus are synchronized according to the schedule, but there has been a 5 minute delay on the Blue Line, it might not be unreasonable to request the #5 operator to wait a few minutes since it doesn't run frequently and many of the people planning to use it are going to be on that train and will otherwise miss it.

Yeah i know thats why when I'm going to Windermere I don't even take the healthline unless I absolutely have to because its soooo slow. I'm not sure about the S-Curve I'm only an east side rider but I would say about 12 minutes to get to the Little Italy station.

 

Thanks, that time is great. A few months ago I took a ride from Tower City to Uptown on the Healthline around noon and it took about 30 minutes. So the 12 minute red line ride will be a great addition. Will be closer and much nicer than the current East 120th station.

Yeah the Red Line is so much more convenient than the HL I only wish that the Red Line had tracks that weren't so out of the way and were around residential areas or businesses. I know this is what happens when you just use already built train tracks instead of building your own. I do believe the trip to East 120 on the rapid then taking the HL would save you about 5-10 minutes though have you tried that?

Yeah i know thats why when I'm going to Windermere I don't even take the healthline unless I absolutely have to because its soooo slow. I'm not sure about the S-Curve I'm only an east side rider but I would say about 12 minutes to get to the Little Italy station.

 

Thanks, that time is great. A few months ago I took a ride from Tower City to Uptown on the Healthline around noon and it took about 30 minutes. So the 12 minute red line ride will be a great addition. Will be closer and much nicer than the current East 120th station.

Yeah the Red Line is so much more convenient than the HL I only wish that the Red Line had tracks that weren't so out of the way and were around residential areas or businesses. I know this is what happens when you just use already built train tracks instead of building your own. I do believe the trip to East 120 on the rapid then taking the HL would save you about 5-10 minutes though have you tried that?

 

Excuse me?  I think you're mistaken about the Cleveland Rapid tracks.  When the Red Line was built the stations surrounding it were much more populated residential neighborhoods.  In addition there were business along the route, so it was convenient to workers.

^There's no doubt ridership has declined as the neighborhoods around the stations collapsed, but McLovin is still right: that east side route was a dog from the beginning because of the freight ROW it followed and the lack of a downtown subway. Even when it first opened it's ridership was way lower than projected.* The route was chosen out of cost and convenience, not because it would provide optimal service.

 

*According to "Horse Trails to Regional Rails" by James Tobin and Blaine Hays, the definitive history of Cleveland public transit.

"This may be a post-literate culture"

 

I am so stealing this, and damned if you're not correct.

 

I do like the idea of posting the sign, though.  Some riders always seemed bound and determined to chat about nothing with anyone, and when they finally get the clue that the book and headphones means others have no interest, they bug the driver.

Excuse me?  I think you're mistaken about the Cleveland Rapid tracks.  When the Red Line was built the stations surrounding it were much more populated residential neighborhoods.  In addition there were business along the route, so it was convenient to workers.

With few exceptions, the land-use patterns that prevail today, within the area of the Red Line, were well established long before the Red Line was built.  There has of course been an exodus of people and industry from the area, and thus far less density of both, but there are no areas along the Red Line that are primarily industrial today that were primarily residential then, or vice versa. 

Ride Review:

 

A few notes from my most recent RTA trip today (I commute suburb to suburb, and thus do not ride RTA very much anymore, but it is my preferred means of getting downtown when I need to.)  The trip was from the W.65/Lorain Red Line station to E.6/Euclid and back, leaving approximately 10:45am today and returning about an hour later.

 

I do not mean to sound unnecessarily critical.  I understand there are many fine and dedicated RTA employees doing the best they can with limited funding.  However, in just this single trip, I could identify a number of things that would deter a less determined rider, yet, seemingly, could be fairly easily and inexpensively remedied.

 

1.  "No Unecessary Talking To Operator."  Why is it deemed unecessary [sic] to spell words correctly when attempting to communicate with the public?  This may be a post-literate culture, but is it really necessary to broadcast this fact to visitors from other places where the average person who communicates with the public *does* know how to spell multisyllabic words?

 

2.  Why would it take almost 15 minutes for a train to get from West 65 to Tower City, making one intermediate stop?  They are only about 3 miles apart.  A competent high school athlete could run faster.  Are there track problems I was not aware of?  Might this have been to keep a schedule?  (However, if the latter is the case, please see below.)

 

3.  The HealthLine trip from Tower City to East 6 had to stop at Ontario, East 4 and East 6, for what seemed to be the full duration of each cycle.  I though the light timing was supposed to have been settled by now?  I realize that may not be within RTA's control, but it would have an obvious and huge impact on both the performance and cost of operating the HealthLine.

 

4.  I hoped to use the HealthLine to get from E. 6 back to Tower City, but it remained stuck at East 9th for some reason, and after waiting a couple cycles I decided to walk instead.  It still had not reached East Roadway at the point I did.  Not sure what that was all about.

 

5.  The Red Line trains in both directions did not display any direction.  They simply said "Red Line."  It would have been more helpful, especially for riders unfamiliar with the system, for them to have displayed Stokes and Brookpark respectively, or even "Eastbound" and "Westbound."

 

6.  When attempting to take the Red Line back to West 65, I was informed by another rider that the train had left several minutes early.  The next train did arrive in about 17 minutes as expected and operated without incident.  I had always been under the impression that buses and trains never leave early from points listed in published schedules, but either that fellow rider was mistaken, or this particular one did.

 

I am willing to deal with minor annoyances like this from time to time, and, obviously, there are those who have little choice as to whether they will do so or not.  But there are many potential riders who would have been turned off by any of these items, never mind all of them in the same trip.  Spelling things correctly, sticking to schedules absent extenuating circumstances, working with the city/state DOT to synchronize lights, etc. are all things that could go a long way to making RTA marketable to many people who would not be willing to consider using it today.

 

I've been riding the Rapid for 41 years so I think some of your points are valid.  We need to look at this from a non regular commuter perspective.

 

• Spelling  -  Embarrassing and even worse that none of us caught this.  Granted I'm on the first train or one of the first trains to the airport so I sleep from UC or TC to the airport.  I didn't have to do the BK Bus link the last trip, but that will not be pleasant when I do.  As a regular rider I don't pay attention to this signage.  I'm assuming a tourist new rider would.
  
• Could there be mid day disruptions?  Did the driver make any announcements?
  
• Not everyone can walk this, as they may have packages or what not, but the time spent waiting on Public Square for a HL vehicle, you could walk to East 6th.
  
• Directional Signage - We need "world class signage" (remember this from a few years back?)  Due to my knowledge/familiarity of the system and where I live I never look at the signs, I just hope on whatever train is going East.
  
• Station Holds - I rarely have seen this happen outside of rush hour.  If the train leaves one/two minutes early or arrives one/tow minutes late then I don't look at it as a bad things.  I look at it as a dice roll when taking public transportation in any city.
  

I am so stealing this, and damned if you're not correct.

 

I do like the idea of posting the sign, though.  Some riders always seemed bound and determined to chat about nothing with anyone, and when they finally get the clue that the book and headphones means others have no interest, they bug the driver.

 

Feel free to steal.  It's one of those things I wish I were wrong about.  But I encounter far too many people - not just uneducated people, but lawyers, doctors, engineers, programmers, etc. - whose grasp of the English language is tenuous at best, and who do not appear to have read enough to understand the basic philosophical foundations of our culture, or to understand history well enough to avoid repeating it. 

^There's no doubt ridership has declined as the neighborhoods around the stations collapsed, but McLovin is still right: that east side route was a dog from the beginning because of the freight ROW it followed and the lack of a downtown subway. Even when it first opened it's ridership was way lower than projected.* The route was chosen out of cost and convenience, not because it would provide optimal service.

 

*According to "Horse Trails to Regional Rails" by James Tobin and Blaine Hays, the definitive history of Cleveland public transit.

 

One problem I see with both the west side and east side stations is the surrounding land use. Look at most of the Red Line stations on googlemaps, or in person. Look how far most of them are from surrounding residents and commercial areas. This is because the tracks were built on a freight ROW and these uses built away from the tracks. This hurt the red line since the beginning. Now look at Chicago and some of their lines. It appears that almost every station is integrated right in the heart of a commercial district with residents also right by. The Red Line today has to be seeing most of its ridership coming from people driving in and parking in the lots and then taking the train to work. The Green and Blue lines east of Woodhill Rd were also done well IMO. The tracks and stations are at the center and are the focus of the neighborhood.

^There's no doubt ridership has declined as the neighborhoods around the stations collapsed, but McLovin is still right: that east side route was a dog from the beginning because of the freight ROW it followed and the lack of a downtown subway. Even when it first opened it's ridership was way lower than projected.* The route was chosen out of cost and convenience, not because it would provide optimal service.

 

*According to "Horse Trails to Regional Rails" by James Tobin and Blaine Hays, the definitive history of Cleveland public transit.

 

One problem I see with both the west side and east side stations is the surrounding land use. Look at most of the Red Line stations on googlemaps, or in person. Look how far most of them are from surrounding residents and commercial areas. This is because the tracks were built on a freight ROW and these uses built away from the tracks. This hurt the red line since the beginning. Now look at Chicago and some of their lines. It appears that almost every station is integrated right in the heart of a commercial district with residents also right by. The Red Line today has to be seeing most of its ridership coming from people driving in and parking in the lots and then taking the train to work. The Green and Blue lines east of Woodhill Rd were also done well IMO. The tracks and stations are at the center and are the focus of the neighborhood.

 

Folk huge difference between Cleveland and Chicago so lets not go down that road.  I will say Chicago, was a place were rail cars were manufactured and the railways were able to easily offer service.  Just look at some of the surface commuter lines on the South side.  Many are at grade.

 

In addition, Chicago's leadership wasn't coerced into giving up rail for buses.

^^For sure- I think we're all saying the same thing.  In Chicago, the ROWs for the El were created specifically for local rapid transit service. In Cleveland, the Red Line was put in an existing freight ROW running through an already-built out city.  From the beginning the Red Line was intended to rely on feeder buses because it served so few residential commercial areas directly. 

In addition, Chicago's leadership wasn't coerced into giving up rail for buses.

 

Oh yes they were. Chicago lost a lot of rail, especially streetcars, interurbans and even some El lines. They were lucky they didn't lose more.

 

^^For sure- I think we're all saying the same thing.  In Chicago, the ROWs for the El were created specifically for local rapid transit service. In Cleveland, the Red Line was put in an existing freight ROW running through an already-built out city.  From the beginning the Red Line was intended to rely on feeder buses because it served so few residential commercial areas directly. 

 

Some of the newer sections of El were built along freight rail lines (ie: Orange Line) or highways (ie: Blue Line extension to O'Hare in the Kennedy Expressway, or Red Line to the Dan Ryan), and some inner sections were rerouted along highways (ie: Blue Line into the Eisenhower).

 

Ironically, now that most of the industries along the Red Line are gone, there exists an opportunity to redevelop those areas with land uses that have a mix and a level of density necessary to provide the Red Line with ridership levels that are more consistent with those of other rail transit lines in other cities.

In addition, Chicago's leadership wasn't coerced into giving up rail for buses.

 

Oh yes they were. Chicago lost a lot of rail, especially streetcars, interurbans and even some El lines. They were lucky they didn't lose more.

 

^^For sure- I think we're all saying the same thing.  In Chicago, the ROWs for the El were created specifically for local rapid transit service. In Cleveland, the Red Line was put in an existing freight ROW running through an already-built out city.  From the beginning the Red Line was intended to rely on feeder buses because it served so few residential commercial areas directly. 

 

Some of the newer sections of El were built along freight rail lines (ie: Orange Line) or highways (ie: Blue Line extension to O'Hare in the Kennedy Expressway, or Red Line to the Dan Ryan), and some inner sections were rerouted along highways (ie: Blue Line into the Eisenhower).

 

Ironically, now that most of the industries along the Red Line are gone, there exists an opportunity to redevelop those areas with land uses that have a mix and a level of density necessary to provide the Red Line with ridership levels that are more consistent with those of other rail transit lines in other cities.

 

As you noted earlier in you excellent pictorial lesson on late 19th Century New York, a few American big cities, (Chicago included) developed along rapid transit lines; that many areas of Chicago's L were built into farmlands.  People therefore moved TO transit stops and density naturally developed.  We have a smaller example here where the Shaker Rapid was built into similarly desolate areas, and now Shaker Square (highly dense) and Shaker Heights developed along the rails in the 19-teens and '20s...

 

... The Red Line is too young for that kind of influence; it opened in the mid-50s well into the post WWII auto explosion and, of course, along freight rail routes with factories that, even then, were aging and being replaced by advanced, less-labor intense manufacturing technology .... That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of areas along the Red Line that TOD can't be developed.  Uptown and Intesa at the new UC-Little Italy station is just one example.

Exactly. Using high-density transportation to cause high-density development patterns was sought by syndicates and trusts of transit operators, real estate developers and utilities in many cities including Cleveland before the Great Depression and the trust-busting New Dealers in the executive and judicial branches. Cleveland's occurred mostly along streetcar lines, but also along some interurbans. There were attempts to do this subways but obviously it never occurred due to a number of factors including bad timing.

 

But building rail transit into undeveloped areas outside fast-growing cities to foster high-density, transit-supportive land use patterns to reduce pollution, energy use and vehicle-miles traveled is occurring in some cities.

 

Salt Lake City is one such fast-growing city. Check back in about 20-30 years to see what these desolate areas along one of the region's new rail lines will look. This is what it looks like now along the Mid-Jordan TRAX line...

 

 

 

Compare that to New York's #7 line from Midtown Manhattan to Queens (through Jackson Heights to Flushing), all which built up around the then-privately owned and financed subway lines.....

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzqBx6zOQBo

Why is there a "Red Line" line at the Cleveland Browns rapid stop?

 

 

If all the rail stations besides tower city (and maybe the Airport I'm not sure) don't have the turnstiles anymore how can RTA accurately determine how many people rode the rapid this year? I regularly ride the rapid and NEVER see the RTA police on board enforcing the rules for people sneaking on. The same question goes for the Healthline on the beginning stages on the bus line the police regularly got on but I don't see them nearly as much. So as I stated before without an obvious way (in my eyes) to get an accurate count with especially with people getting on fare free how do you get an accurate count of Red Line and HL riders?

^pretty amazing.  I just wish more folks understood what smart growth expanded mass transit can bring.  ie It took Los Angeles a long time before the light bulb clicked on, but now LA gets it, and they can't extend rapid transit fast enough!

^pretty amazing.  I just wish more folks understood what smart growth expanded mass transit can bring.  ie It took Los Angeles a long time before the light bulb clicked on, but now LA gets it, and they can't extend rapid transit fast enough!

 

AMEN!

There is a Red Line lane at the West Third Street Rapid Station to help crowd control after a game. Passengers who are taking the Red Line have to change trains at Tower City, others do not. RTA has improved its handling of special events greatly in recent years. We tried this, and it was a big help. The last time I checked, it took 45 minutes to disperse a Browns post-game crowd. We'll try to improve on that next year.

There is a Red Line lane at the West Third Street Rapid Station to help crowd control after a game. Passengers who are taking the Red Line have to change trains at Tower City, others do not. RTA has improved its handling of special events greatly in recent years. We tried this, and it was a big help. The last time I checked, it took 45 minutes to disperse a Browns post-game crowd. We'll try to improve on that next year.

 

Interesting.  I never take the rapid from Browns games because I take a cab from W3rd.  I used to take the 55 from W3rd.  Maybe I'll give it a shot again sometime.

 

 

Jerry, I understand your frustration and very much appreciate your presence here (seriously), but keep in mind that this is a general discussion forum, not an RTA tip line being abused.  If we only communicated things to people with the power to change them, the whole internets would go out of business :)

 

Okay then, here's a more direct statement: I monitor the aforementioned e-mail address multiple times per day, and have seen nothing, ZERO, insofar as constructive commentary about what one might like to see on the pages mentioned. I value other people's opinions, but I can only act upon conversations I actually have. Even if the constructive comments were ONLY posted here, at least that would be something. Complaining is easy.

 

I appreciate your search for more concrete examples, and look forward to seeing what you discover.

 

 

OK, sorry I sat on this for a couple months, but soon after this exchange I had a quick work trip to Denver, during which I realized I could use the light rail for my engagements.  It's web site made it very easy and quick to understand the payment logistics ahead of time. Though somewhat unhelpfully buried within the "Rider Tools" menu, the "How to Ride" section brings up a sub-menu of different modes, including light rail [and also how to transfer, which I didn't' happen to need]  : http://www.rtd-denver.com/index.shtml.  It literally took a couple minutes to know exactly how much I would need to pay, whether I needed exact change, whether I could use a credit card, and whether to pay on-board or beforehand.

 

Given the complexity of RTA's payment system (separate routine for Red Line and Healthline; light rail; buses; and trolleys), I would think a high level menu directing people to the payment and boarding logistics for each mode would be very helpful.  Within these mode-specific pages, you could link back to a common "fares" page to keep the exact fare amount updates simple, but again, the payment logistics are unique for each mode, so should be spelled out separately rather than lumped together within RTA's current "How to ride" page, along with the info on the jargony links on that pages right side menu.  Adding a "Transfers between routes" option on this top level menu would also be helpful (like Denver does alongside its mode options).

 

The current RTA site purports to offer some mode specific info from he top level "Riding Options" menu, but it's not terribly useful. For instance, all the links on the "bus" portion just bring you to non-mode specific pages (e.g., fares and schedules) or to lists of park and ride and rapid transit locations, which doesn't even make sense under the "bus" menu option.  And the "Healthline" menu choice brings you to the old publicity web site that I'm not sure is even maintained by RTA.

 

Anyway, just want to underscore that riding requires two bits of main info: how to plan a trip with route and schedule info; and how to pay.  For historical reasons, how to pay is exceptionally complex for RTA. I would think spelling it out in an easy to find way would be very useful.  And for goodness sake, if you want more people ride the trolley, find a way to stop telling them it costs $1.50.

Interesting.  I never take the rapid from Browns games because I take a cab from W3rd.  I used to take the 55 from W3rd.  Maybe I'll give it a shot again sometime.

Please check the schedule first . . . 55 service to my knowledge no longer exists on weekends.

Please check the schedule first . . . 55 service to my knowledge no longer exists on weekends.

 

That is correct. However, the 26 (Detroit Ave) operates 24/7.

There is a Red Line lane at the West Third Street Rapid Station to help crowd control after a game. Passengers who are taking the Red Line have to change trains at Tower City, others do not. RTA has improved its handling of special events greatly in recent years. We tried this, and it was a big help. The last time I checked, it took 45 minutes to disperse a Browns post-game crowd. We'll try to improve on that next year.

 

So a LRT vehicle is labeled Red Line then and drops passengers off at Tower City to then transfer to a HRT vehicle?  Actual red line trains cant ride on that track correct.

A pane of glass of the solar RTA shelter at Mayfield and Coventry has been shattered.

Can we get this replaced ASAP -- to send a message, as well as to have it fixed?

Was thought given before installing these as to making them extra shatter-resistant, or could that be done now? If not, was it naive not to?

How about a little music to send you on your way?

 

RTA now offers live music in the Tower City Station Rotunda area from 3:30-6:30 p.m. on third Thursday of each month. Groups range from rock to blues, jazz, bagpipes -and classical. The next event is Jan. 17.

 

We tried to get Johnny Cash to come down and sing "I hear the train a-coming" -- but he was already booked!

Within a few weeks, RTA should debut its new screen flow for the public to see. There will be several fare vending machines at Tower City. I will tell you more when it's ready.

Note from Bryan Moore, supervisor, RTA shelter shop:

 

Thanks for the information.  I have received several calls, but the solar shelters that are on Mayfield at Warrensville and Coventry, WB belong to the City of Cleveland Heights. They have been notified every time I am informed.  They are working on fixing it.

 

Interesting.  I never take the rapid from Browns games because I take a cab from W3rd.  I used to take the 55 from W3rd.  Maybe I'll give it a shot again sometime.

Please check the schedule first . . . 55 service to my knowledge no longer exists on weekends.

 

I was trying to say that maybe I'll give the rapid a try again from Browns games sometimes.

 

This does bring up another issue with RTA trains.  $5 day pass x 2 = $10.  As much as it costs me to park at most Indians games and why I never take the rapid when I go see the Tribe.

 

 

^plus, gas, traffic, and wear/tear on your car....

We tried to get Johnny Cash to come down and sing "I hear the train a-coming" -- but he was already booked!

 

St. Peter has JC booked until forever.

 

EDIT: many train songs to choose from (some very forgettable ie: Quad City DJs' "C'mon Ride The Train")... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_train_songs

Note from Bryan Moore, supervisor, RTA shelter shop:

 

Thanks for the information.  I have received several calls, but the solar shelters that are on Mayfield at Warrensville and Coventry, WB belong to the City of Cleveland Heights. They have been notified every time I am informed.  They are working on fixing it.

 

 

 

This reminded me of something I saw in my fb feed:

 

"Bulletproof glass manufacturer 3M Security Glass placed this advertisement at a bus stop. There's apparently $3 million in cash inside there, behind their bulletproof glass. If you can break it, it's yours."

That's awesome. Someone tried to break it by kicking it? No imagination. You can cut right through bullet-proof glass with a diamond drill bit. Even a sharp axe should be able to break it.