RTA didn't ask for the Waterfront Line. The City of Cleveland did. The city and state paid for it. The Muny Lot may not stay the Muny Lot for long.

 

Rail lines last for decades. If we don't like the current condition of ridership or development around them, then change it or, if you're not into activism, then wait around a decade or so. It will change.

 

I don't have a problem with the development around stations just the push for Red Line extension to Euclid.  Rail lines do not last for decades; the WFL was closed and, as you provided, the light-rail and red line are in jeopardy all together.

The WFL, as it exists today, is not conducive for workers that are not living on or near the lines on the east side.

But what about the E&Y workers who do live near the lines on the East Side, or who are a short drive to one of the Blue/Green line lots?  Why aren't these using the WFL for the through ride near their homes?  The Blue and Green lines are easily accessible, by foot, bike or car, to a wide swath of SE Cleveland and the east/SE suburbs, with a significant number of apt/multi-unit dwellers at Shaker Sq and along the Van Aken line who are steps away from a Rapid stop.

 

A worker, even at E&Y tower, has to wait for the WFL train, do an inconvenient transfer and pay an additional fare, unless a monthly or all day pass is on-hand, wait for the red line train, ride to, say, brookpark, then drive to name-your-suburb here...just drive, traffic and gas prices are not an issue. Can't imagine this daily routine esp with RTAs iffy service.

 

Wait for a WFL train!?  They run every 15 minutes all day and into the night (last train leaving South Harbor at 12:05a every night).  Even better, riders can have or learn the trains' simple schedule and arrive at FEB station right before their trains.  The result?  No waiting!

 

Inconvenient transfer?  How so?  The WFL-to-Red Line transfer could hardly be easier; it's a  level, short walk and totally temperature controlled (you can wait on large, old-style train station wooden pews inside glass-enclosed, well-lit, toasty warm areas for your train) which is great news during those subfreezing Cleveland winter days.  Compare this transfer to those rail-to-rail transfers in other cities where people have to endure long stairs or escalators and/or walks through long, sometimes poorly lit, dank and unheated tunnels.  Spoiled Clevelanders often like to rationalize why they don't use transit rather than simply using it, when they have it much easier than other cities.  This plus the fact that rail-to-rail transfers are common for other places, so why should it be seen as so difficult here?

 

Also, while WFL trains depart every 15 minutes, rush hour Red Line trains depart for the West Side every 8 to 10 minutes and, currently, eastbound Red Line rush hour trains are every 10 minutes at least until the Red Line's Tower City center track is repaired (or maybe longer given the growth of ridership in University Circle in recent years).  The trip from FEB to Tower City is about 5 minutes.  From TC to UC/Little Italy, it's 14-16 minutes.  Again, what's so inconvenient about this?

 

WFL-to-bus?  I know of at least one E&Y employee who transfers from the WFL to the #26 bus to Lakewood every day... and loves it.  Some other E&Yers transfer to other Public Square bus lines including the HL.  There's a long escalator up to the Public Sq level through, once again, warm, cozy, and safe Tower City mall, with the square itself only steps away.  During inclement weather days, some HL riders wait inside TC's grand/beautiful portico until their bus comes. Again, where's the inconvenience? 

 

The 1950s subway was not a link to Univeristy Circle; the Dual Hub concept is a 1980s creation that ultimately let to the HealthLine, not a rail line.  The 1950s subway plan was an underground loop with stops at Playhouse Square and E9th/Superior etc.

 

On the surface this is true, but misleading.  Even though the referendum passed by the voters 2-to-1 in 1953 was, in fact, for the subway loop you mention, planners clearly projected a University Circle connection line branching off the loop to be constructed either in tandem or soon after the subway loop was built.  For this reason, planners called for the subway tubes to be stacked along E. 13th Street with the Playhouse Square station to be built on 2 levels (note the 8th Image in the link, below, which is cutaway graphic for the 13th Street leg of the planned subway with the stacked tubes).  This would allow for tunnel turnouts to be built into the north and southbound tunnels allowing for a grade-separated junction for a U. Circle branch; it probably would have been at or near Chester Ave.  See the the 5th Image link, below, especially the 1955 map plan of the Praeger-Cutting-DeLeuw Plan B subway proposal.

 

http://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/361#.VmaCXPm-2m4

 

The park-n-rides are useful to a point but those stations are the west side have far fewer daily cars than the past.

 

That's because of the heavy losses of downtown offices and, hence, jobs due to closures, mergers, and simply corporate and company losses either to the suburbs or to other cities and states.  Standard Oil/SOHIO/BP which had thousands of employees downtown is, now, totally gone; merged and moved to Chicago.  And that's only 1 example.  What about Eaton which high-tailed it to the Highlands a few years ago? However, despite bottoming out in the early 2000s, rail ridership has steadily climbed, I suspect, because of residential and entertainment/restaurant growth downtown and in-city neighborhoods that are walkable to rail stations, including Ohio City, University Circle/Little Italy, Detroit Shoreway and Shaker Square.  Thus while the park n' ride suburban commuter has declined in recent decades, there's been some growth among the more traditional type rapid transit riders who feed into rail stations with their feet. 

I don't have a problem with the development around stations just the push for Red Line extension to Euclid.  Rail lines do not last for decades; the WFL was closed and, as you provided, the light-rail and red line are in jeopardy all together.

 

You're not opposed to development around stations?? That's good! I hope you're also not opposed to people eating food, drinking water and breathing oxygen. They're all quite necessary.

 

If we're going to be serious about increasing the utility of our rail lines, then we must purse the cost-effective extensions that the FTA is willing to fund. The Red Line extension is the only studied extension in the Greater Cleveland area that the feds are willing to invest in. And if we're truly serious in Greater Cleveland about addressing University Circle's worsening traffic, or addressing the city's second-worst ranking in the USA in poverty, then we have to reduce the spatial disconnect between jobs and job-seekers. The Red Line extension will make a big dent in that.

 

The Red Line isn't going to shut down, and any shutdown of the Blue and Green lines isn't going to last long. GCRTA can't afford to pay back the feds for the 10's of millions they've invested in federal funds over the past 20 years on the rail system.

 

And by the way, the rail system has already been in operation for decades. The oldest section turned 100 years old in 2013 and the newest section, the Waterfront Line  (which wasn't shut down, emphasizing the durability of rail), turns 20 years old next year. It will be around for many decades more. Frankly, I am having difficulty understanding what your objections are and why. They aren't justified by the issues and data.

Ohio Organizing Collaborative to meet 1 pm Dec 12 @ MLK library to support #Cleveland #transit, fight @gcrta fare hike, service cuts

http://www.gcbl.org/calendar/2015/12/big-meeting-to-support-public-transit-in-cleveland

Reminder that the public meeting for the proposed changes to the #45 & #21 is tonight at the new Max Hayes High School. First meeting is from 4-5pm, second is 6-7pm. Address is 2211 W. 65th St. RTA suggests taking the #22 bus to get there, however, the #45 (the one on the chopping block) is much more convenient. http://www.riderta.com/news/dec-10-2015-rta-sets-public-hearings-discuss-routes-21-and-45-45a

I don't have a problem with the development around stations just the push for Red Line extension to Euclid.  Rail lines do not last for decades; the WFL was closed and, as you provided, the light-rail and red line are in jeopardy all together.

 

You're not opposed to development around stations?? That's good! I hope you're also not opposed to people eating food, drinking water and breathing oxygen. They're all quite necessary.

 

If we're going to be serious about increasing the utility of our rail lines, then we must purse the cost-effective extensions that the FTA is willing to fund. The Red Line extension is the only studied extension in the Greater Cleveland area that the feds are willing to invest in. And if we're truly serious in Greater Cleveland about addressing University Circle's worsening traffic, or addressing the city's second-worst ranking in the USA in poverty, then we have to reduce the spatial disconnect between jobs and job-seekers. The Red Line extension will make a big dent in that.

 

The Red Line isn't going to shut down, and any shutdown of the Blue and Green lines isn't going to last long. GCRTA can't afford to pay back the feds for the 10's of millions they've invested in federal funds over the past 20 years on the rail system.

 

And by the way, the rail system has already been in operation for decades. The oldest section turned 100 years old in 2013 and the newest section, the Waterfront Line  (which wasn't shut down, emphasizing the durability of rail), turns 20 years old next year. It will be around for many decades more. Frankly, I am having difficulty understanding what your objections are and why. They aren't justified by the issues and data.

 

My comment about TOD was in response to you stating that I made a blanket statement against TOD by not wanting the transit hub on the W 3rd lots.  Eating, drinking and breathing are all quite necessary but TOD is not to Cleveland's RTA since it is in the nascent stage of addressing this.

 

The WFL was funded by the city; leave it to the White Administration to build a train to nowhere.  There were no federal $$s involved?  Even Cinci'streetcar landed some Fed money.  So, RTA has never done a rail expansion in its 40 years since the airport extension was CTS.  So, I question RTA's trustworthiness and object to Euclid extension because it's based on assumptions the area will attract riders.

 

Bottom line: I love transit systems and want Cleveland's to expand and attract locals and new residents to use it.  I just want it to get done right and any objections or issues raised.

If you want a transit system that isn't used very much, then sure, transit-oriented development isn't necessary. Different forms of transportation succeed or fail based on the built environments they serve. A car requires speed and geometric space to park, maneuver and function at a high level -- all are attributes that don't exist in abundance in a densely developed city. Conversely, transit doesn't work very well where origins and destinations are spread out in low density, in single-use structures and in a multiple of directions.

 

Federal money would have slowed down the construction timeline of the Waterfront Line, requiring the usual project development process of alternatives analysis based on environmental screening factors, preliminary engineering of the locally preferred alternative, and final engineering and environmental remediation planning before construction can begin. Average PDP timeline for a project seeking federal funds is 10 years. RTA first proposed in 1988 a $10 million Flats Trolley  using a heritage streetcars and single-track line along the West 10th street and the south side of the lakefront mainline railroads. Mayor White sought the Waterfront Line in 1992 as an extension of the Shaker light-rail lines. Construction began in 1994 -- a record pace. Original cost was estimated at $45 million. Final price tag including all of the site enhancements, street relocations, and the Settlers Landing Park was $72 million. There were news article touting how real estate developments were popping up along the WFL -- Crittenden Court apartments, National Terminals Building, Bingham, several new chain restaurants opened including Dick's Last Resort. All cited the Waterfront Line as a factor. So the Waterfront Line was estimated to carry 600,000 people in its first year. Instead it carried over 1 million. It remained above 1 million annually until about 2000 when the Flats East Bank died. I rode many full Waterfront Line trains into and out of the Flats in the late 1990s.

 

Yes, RTA extended a rail line. What extension were we just discussing?

The first of the new trolleys has arrived. I think they look great. The 35' length is a big improvement too.

 

 

The first of the new trolleys has arrived. I think they look great. The 35' length is a big improvement too.

 

Looks great, they have been consistently improving since their inception.

I like the cow-catcher on the front.  Ramma jamma!

The WFL, as it exists today, is not conducive for workers that are not living on or near the lines on the east side.

But what about the E&Y workers who do live near the lines on the East Side, or who are a short drive to one of the Blue/Green line lots?  Why aren't these using the WFL for the through ride near their homes?  The Blue and Green lines are easily accessible, by foot, bike or car, to a wide swath of SE Cleveland and the east/SE suburbs, with a significant number of apt/multi-unit dwellers at Shaker Sq and along the Van Aken line who are steps away from a Rapid stop.

 

A worker, even at E&Y tower, has to wait for the WFL train, do an inconvenient transfer and pay an additional fare, unless a monthly or all day pass is on-hand, wait for the red line train, ride to, say, brookpark, then drive to name-your-suburb here...just drive, traffic and gas prices are not an issue. Can't imagine this daily routine esp with RTAs iffy service.

 

Wait for a WFL train!?  They run every 15 minutes all day and into the night (last train leaving South Harbor at 12:05a every night).  Even better, riders can have or learn the trains' simple schedule and arrive at FEB station right before their trains.  The result?  No waiting!

 

Inconvenient transfer?  How so?  The WFL-to-Red Line transfer could hardly be easier; it's a  level, short walk and totally temperature controlled (you can wait on large, old-style train station wooden pews inside glass-enclosed, well-lit, toasty warm areas for your train) which is great news during those subfreezing Cleveland winter days.  Compare this transfer to those rail-to-rail transfers in other cities where people have to endure long stairs or escalators and/or walks through long, sometimes poorly lit, dank and unheated tunnels.  Spoiled Clevelanders often like to rationalize why they don't use transit rather than simply using it, when they have it much easier than other cities.  This plus the fact that rail-to-rail transfers are common for other places, so why should it be seen as so difficult here?

 

Also, while WFL trains depart every 15 minutes, rush hour Red Line trains depart for the West Side every 8 to 10 minutes and, currently, eastbound Red Line rush hour trains are every 10 minutes at least until the Red Line's Tower City center track is repaired (or maybe longer given the growth of ridership in University Circle in recent years).  The trip from FEB to Tower City is about 5 minutes.  From TC to UC/Little Italy, it's 14-16 minutes.  Again, what's so inconvenient about this?

 

WFL-to-bus?  I know of at least one E&Y employee who transfers from the WFL to the #26 bus to Lakewood every day... and loves it.  Some other E&Yers transfer to other Public Square bus lines including the HL.  There's a long escalator up to the Public Sq level through, once again, warm, cozy, and safe Tower City mall, with the square itself only steps away.  During inclement weather days, some HL riders wait inside TC's grand/beautiful portico until their bus comes. Again, where's the inconvenience? 

 

The 1950s subway was not a link to Univeristy Circle; the Dual Hub concept is a 1980s creation that ultimately let to the HealthLine, not a rail line.  The 1950s subway plan was an underground loop with stops at Playhouse Square and E9th/Superior etc.

 

On the surface this is true, but misleading.  Even though the referendum passed by the voters 2-to-1 in 1953 was, in fact, for the subway loop you mention, planners clearly projected a University Circle connection line branching off the loop to be constructed either in tandem or soon after the subway loop was built.  For this reason, planners called for the subway tubes to be stacked along E. 13th Street with the Playhouse Square station to be built on 2 levels (note the 8th Image in the link, below, which is cutaway graphic for the 13th Street leg of the planned subway with the stacked tubes).  This would allow for tunnel turnouts to be built into the north and southbound tunnels allowing for a grade-separated junction for a U. Circle branch; it probably would have been at or near Chester Ave.  See the the 5th Image link, below, especially the 1955 map plan of the Praeger-Cutting-DeLeuw Plan B subway proposal.

 

http://clevelandhistorical.org/items/show/361#.VmaCXPm-2m4

 

The park-n-rides are useful to a point but those stations are the west side have far fewer daily cars than the past.

 

That's because of the heavy losses of downtown offices and, hence, jobs due to closures, mergers, and simply corporate and company losses either to the suburbs or to other cities and states.  Standard Oil/SOHIO/BP which had thousands of employees downtown is, now, totally gone; merged and moved to Chicago.  And that's only 1 example.  What about Eaton which high-tailed it to the Highlands a few years ago? However, despite bottoming out in the early 2000s, rail ridership has steadily climbed, I suspect, because of residential and entertainment/restaurant growth downtown and in-city neighborhoods that are walkable to rail stations, including Ohio City, University Circle/Little Italy, Detroit Shoreway and Shaker Square.  Thus while the park n' ride suburban commuter has declined in recent decades, there's been some growth among the more traditional type rapid transit riders who feed into rail stations with their feet.

 

There's your answer: far fewer workers downtown than in the past.  Cleveland's sprawl is not helping its local transit system.  I use transit and have all my life so 15 minutes here and there is not a big deal with a transfer thrown in but to people not used to transit, it's a pain.  Traffic is not an issue in Cleveland so people opt to drive and park downtown for work. 

 

Transit has to be convenient in cities like Cleveland; residents always have the option to drive especially if a rail station is not close enough to warrant its use.

RTA approves budget with possible fare hikes

 

By James Ewinger, The Plain Dealer

Follow on Twitter

on December 15, 2015 at 2:16 PM, updated December 15, 2015 at 3:45 PM

 

CLEVELAND, Ohio – The RTA board of trustees on Tuesday approved a $308 million operating budget that takes effect Jan. 1, 2016.

 

Passage gives tentative approval to fare increases and what have been called minor service cuts.

 

Joe Calabrese, the transit authority's CEO and general manager, said at the meeting that there will be no service cuts to paratransit service. Earlier, RTA said light and heavy rail lines would not experience service reductions.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/12/rta_approves_budget_with_possi.html

Due to some kind of problem with the overhead wires:

 

@GCRTA 12/20/15 2:01 PM: "The Waterfront, Red, Blue & Green Lines replaced with buses from Tower City to E.55th and from Waterfront to Tower City."

 

Also, is RTA's Commuter Alerts actually a real thing? I've signed up no less than 2 separate times, yet I never get any notifications.

Fortunately, GCRTA was able to get service restored at 6 a.m. today. The overhead electric wires are supported by an outdated, fixed-wire catenary system built 60-85 years ago and requires workers to manually tighten and loosen the wires as the temperature changes. GCRTA is slowly replacing the catenary poles but the wires need to replaced with a constant-tension wire that use weights and pulleys to stay taught in Cleveland's widely swinging temperatures. Although constant-tension wires will save GCRTA a lot of money, it lacks the federal and nonfederal money to install them.

__________________

 

RTA using buses for Red, Blue, Green rail lines this morning

http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2015/12/rta_using_buses_for_red_blue_g.html#incart_river_home

^ Cleveland.com might want to update that article, considering the rail lines have been back running for almost 5 hours now...

@GCRTA 10:40am · 22 Dec 2015

Due to an accident on the Blue Line, 67R buses will replace trains btwn Shaker Sq & Warrensville-Van Aken until further notice.

For some bizarre reason, GCRTA this year seems to be experiencing about one car-train collision each week on the Blue and Green lines, from Shaker Square east. GCRTA have no idea what's changed or why the sudden spike in car-train collisions. Most have been minor collisions, thankfully. But the police investigations, inspection of the train and clearing of the vehicles causes a multi-hour rail service shutdown and residual delays.

^Even stranger given the fact the $Millions spent by the state about 10 years ago to upgrade/construct the hulking Darth Vader the traffic signals at each Shaker Heights LRT grade crossing, complete with the train-triggered big red arrow pointing to the tracks signaling a train is coming.

 

... You wonder, if such train tripped/triggered technology was developed simply to warn drivers of oncoming trains, why did they not spend a bit more to trip the traffic signals to red-lights to stop all traffic when trains approach each grade crossing?  That would surely help curb the problem.  Seems like that major public-works job done a decade ago has turned out to be rather half-a$$ -- as well as ugly -- I've always felt those huge, black traffic signal pole support arms look like the tentacles of some metallic octopus.  And those damn things are all over, and uglifying beautiful Shaker Heights imho.

According to friends at GCRTA, the city of Shaker Heights was not supportive of signal preemption to give the trains a green signal while keeping the road traffic signals red until the train clears. This would certainly cut down on the car-train accidents while also providing a faster overall transit trip (without increasing train speeds).

According to friends at GCRTA, the city of Shaker Heights was not supportive of signal preemption to give the trains a green signal while keeping the road traffic signals red until the train clears. This would certainly cut down on the car-train accidents while also providing a faster overall transit trip (without increasing train speeds).

 

I was wondering about that a couple weeks ago when I was taking the Green Line out to Green Road. The stretch between Shaker and Green Rd (or Warrensville) would be much more pleasant with signal priority for trains.

 

I was also wondering about the evolution of the total travel time from TC/CUT to the outer termini of the Shaker Lines. I tried looking it up quickly but didn't find exact figures, but I know it used to be faster. Does anyone know what the times were pre-1981, then after the rebuild/Breda car introduction, then present day (RTA schedules say 28 minutes for both Green and Blue lines)?

Here's a 1972 Shaker Heights Rapid Transit timetable (I didn't scan it -- I would have done a better job!), including the rush-hour expresses (with the time of departure from the start of the route marked with an "x") with each train running up to five cars long...

 

SHRT schedule Apr 1972 (SIDE 1) by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

SHRT schedule Apr 1972 (SIDE 2) by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

SHRT schedule Apr 1972 (SIDE 3) by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

Heading for home on the Red Line....

 

Red Line Cuyahoga Viaduct-122215 by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

:wtf:

 

 

Signal preemption on Shaker Green and Blue lines. : Missed a great opportunity to do it years ago.  This seems like I have heard of this before. Health line.

 

Expresses: Should explore again on Green and even Blue lines. Make it faster than driving.

 

 

:wtf:

 

 

Signal preemption on Shaker Green and Blue lines. : Missed a great opportunity to do it years ago.  This seems like I have heard of this before. Health line.

 

Expresses: Should explore again on Green and even Blue lines. Make it faster than driving.

 

 

That might be construed as "catering to fat cats".  Krumholtz is gone from the process, but I'm not convinced his legacy does not live on in the system.

 

If I'm not mistaken, part of the rationale behind the mergers was that suburban bus lines did not pick up inbound or drop off outbound within the cites themselves.  Cleveland of course was a classic example of this.

Here's a 1972 Shaker Heights Rapid Transit timetable (I didn't scan it -- I would have done a better job!), including the rush-hour expresses (with the time of departure from the start of the route marked with an "x") with each train running up to five cars long...

 

SHRT schedule Apr 1972 (SIDE 1) by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

SHRT schedule Apr 1972 (SIDE 2) by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

SHRT schedule Apr 1972 (SIDE 3) by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Love looking at these old schedules' ads.  Thomas J. Unik used to have ads on lower fan-o-gram at the base of the upper deck.  We used to joke about the name, because from a distance it looked like "Thomas Junk." ...

 

Also interesting is Shaker Rapid's promo of CTS' new quick/direct route to the airport, as well as the "shortcut" to the campuses and "Upper Euclid," via the "new" E. 34 station.

I was wondering which campus the E 34th station supposedly services...

Tri-C and CSU -- GCRTA used to run one of its downtown loop buses (since replaced by the trolleys) by the campuses to the East 30th station. Ridership was pretty good.

Here's a 1972 Shaker Heights Rapid Transit timetable (I didn't scan it -- I would have done a better job!), including the rush-hour expresses (with the time of departure from the start of the route marked with an "x") with each train running up to five cars long...

 

SHRT schedule Apr 1972 (SIDE 1) by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

SHRT schedule Apr 1972 (SIDE 2) by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

SHRT schedule Apr 1972 (SIDE 3) by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

Love looking at these old schedules' ads.  Thomas J. Unik used to have ads on lower fan-o-gram at the base of the upper deck.  We used to joke about the name, because from a distance it looked like "Thomas Junk." ...

 

Also interesting is Shaker Rapid's promo of CTS' new quick/direct route to the airport, as well as the "shortcut" to the campuses and "Upper Euclid," via the "new" E. 34 station.

 

Where was the Halle's in Shaker Square???  Never new the Shaker Square had a department store, but I can't picture where, the storefronts seem too small unless it was off the square in another building or it was a smaller boutique type store.  Anyone know/remember this store?

^It was just west of the Square, on the south side of Shaker Blvd. The building is still there, but is now offices.

 

Here's a pic: http://www.shakersquare.net/history/bp-oldstores.htm

MidwestChamp[/member]  You youngins'. 

 

Yes there was a Halle's at Shaker Square, it's directly across from the Eastside station building on Shaker Boulevard. 

 

www.shakersquare.net/history/bp-oldstores.htm

 

 

Halle's was in the building now occupied by Richard Bowen & Associates. Building on Shaker Boulevard directly across from the Rapid station.

Wow...never knew that was a department store and it's practically at the end of my street!  Guess I'm too young to remember the good ole days!  :-P

Wow...never knew that was a department store and it's practically at the end of my street!  Guess I'm too young to remember the good ole days!  :-P

 

and I'm old as I can remember shopping there, downtown and at the Severance store.  The Severance store was EVERYTHING!

The bus stop at Crocker Park has been moved and I hope it is only temporary!  The bus used to stop beside Trader Joes in the Crocker Park Shopping Center.  I took the bus out there Friday and it let off across  a busy street from the shopping center. There was no shelter or bench. The wait for the walk sign was long. It appears that the cars on the street travelling east and west have a long green light while the time for pedestrians to cross north and south to where the bus stop is now located have a short time to cross. This is especially bad on cold windy days. Crocker Park facility announced it would pay more attention to pedestrian safety after a woman was hit by a S.U.V. and killed while walking in the parking garage at the center.  The relocation of the bus stop is more dangerous for pedestrians.  Does anyone know if the relocation of this bus stop is temporary?

I don't know Crocker Park, but I do know upscale malls have traditionally treat bus riders like they're pariahs because they're seen as low-income individuals who can't afford cars.  These malls often successfully relocate bus stops away from the mall building and onto the street.  A decade or so ago there was a horrible case of a young mom in, IIRC, Buffalo who was struck and killed running across the street to catch a bus from a suburban mall during a snowstorm.  There was a civil lawsuit and a settlement with the family if memory serves.  Crocker Park is a little different as it is a lifestyle center with mixed-use, multi-unit residences so it may not be the same situation.  But I wouldn't be surprised if a similar mindset is at play.

... btw, kudos to RTA for running all-night Rapid service on New Year's Eve.  I'm not certain this service was brought back last year, but I know it had been stopped for about a decade or more in recent times.  Before it was stopped, it had been an RTA staple.  It's key, worthwhile service with all the drinking going on NYE.

^ This was the third year in a row, I believe

Clvlndr,  I hope the relocation of the bus stop across the street from the Crocker Park shopping center is not permanent.  You could be right about the reason for this. It is very unfortunate that bus riders are seen as pariahs by these upscale shopping centers. 

justine[/member], I don't know the streets around that area, so can't tell you if this explains the change, but it does look like there is a construction-related temporary route change for bus services to Crocker Park: http://www.riderta.com/service-alerts/crocker-park-construction-reroutes-0 

^Justine stated that the relocated stop has no shelter or bench, so it very may well be temporary.  I hope this is the case.

I don't know Crocker Park, but I do know upscale malls have traditionally treat bus riders like they're pariahs because they're seen as low-income individuals who can't afford cars.  These malls often successfully relocate bus stops away from the mall building and onto the street.  A decade or so ago there was a horrible case of a young mom in, IIRC, Buffalo who was struck and killed running across the street to catch a bus from a suburban mall during a snowstorm.  There was a civil lawsuit and a settlement with the family if memory serves.  Crocker Park is a little different as it is a lifestyle center with mixed-use, multi-unit residences so it may not be the same situation.  But I wouldn't be surprised if a similar mindset is at play.

 

You are correct re Buffalo and the mall.  Johnnie Cochran flew in for the family and won the suit. 

 

I'm not seeing how Crocker Park would be any different because upper-income people live there????

I don't know Crocker Park, but I do know upscale malls have traditionally treat bus riders like they're pariahs because they're seen as low-income individuals who can't afford cars.  These malls often successfully relocate bus stops away from the mall building and onto the street.  A decade or so ago there was a horrible case of a young mom in, IIRC, Buffalo who was struck and killed running across the street to catch a bus from a suburban mall during a snowstorm.  There was a civil lawsuit and a settlement with the family if memory serves.  Crocker Park is a little different as it is a lifestyle center with mixed-use, multi-unit residences so it may not be the same situation.  But I wouldn't be surprised if a similar mindset is at play.

 

Most likely it is at play.  Public transit is and has been for quite a while looked at as a pariah.  if you can't afford a car, you can't afford Crocker Park is the mentality of these places.  Still say that having Tower City's rail connection did not help that retail center and its grandiose expansion plans.  We shall see as there is a push to get people to use RTA more and the catering to the millennials who claim they want transit.

 

Hell, suburban malls didn't like checks with Cleveland addresses on them let alone want to deal with the Cleveland transit users.

^^I guess I was thinking, Cleburger, that maybe since people actually live there, they may opt to take the bus into town (and the Rapid, where I believe one of the Crocker Park buses goes), themselves, as opposed to it just serving visitors/workers from other places and that, maybe, this might make a difference.  But, naaa, you're probably right, the same mindset would likely apply anyway.

Crocker Park has been supportive of transit access, and having the mayor as a longtime GCRTA board member would make a change of heart by Crocker Park more difficult.

Crocker Park has been supportive of transit access, and having the mayor as a longtime GCRTA board member would make a change of heart by Crocker Park more difficult.

 

A couple of Beachwood Place style incidents might change their tune, but I don't see that happening.  It's outdoors, and it's pretty far away from the typical abodes of the perpetually disgruntled.  South Park Mall would have issues first.

The bus stop at Crocker Park has been moved and I hope it is only temporary!  The bus used to stop beside Trader Joes in the Crocker Park Shopping Center.  I took the bus out there Friday and it let off across  a busy street from the shopping center. There was no shelter or bench. The wait for the walk sign was long. It appears that the cars on the street travelling east and west have a long green light while the time for pedestrians to cross north and south to where the bus stop is now located have a short time to cross. This is especially bad on cold windy days. Crocker Park facility announced it would pay more attention to pedestrian safety after a woman was hit by a S.U.V. and killed while walking in the parking garage at the center.  The relocation of the bus stop is more dangerous for pedestrians.  Does anyone know if the relocation of this bus stop is temporary?

 

Per our Service Planning Department:

 

Yes, it was moved early in the construction phase of Crocker Park's expansion.  There was no ability to safety pull the bus to the curb and allow passengers on or off.  The best option was for the bus to go across from Crocker Park to Corporate Circle to turn around and drop off passengers.  The relocation is temporary until the completion of the Crocker Park Expansion.

 

So, now you know. If you have any concerns about the layout or implementation of this temporary stop situation, please let us know directly (not via comments here, as they are not necessarily monitored as regularly). Thanks.

So KJP, I have a question.  Your article on Cleveland's RTA shutdown has received some attention over on SSC (a pretty dead forum, but pretty interesting nonetheless) especially Milwaukee's streetcar thread: Don't know if I should post links to other forums, so I will refrain from doing so.

 

I haven't had time to sit down and read the article like I would like to, but are we essentially looking at Cleveland shutting down all of the lines RTA serves outside of the red line?  If so, this is truly sad.  Cleveland is the reason I fell in love with cities and urban developments.  I remember being little, my aunt worked in 55 Public Square, and I would look down on Public Square, and seeing the area teem with life, I knew then that cities is where I wanted to be.  Now this is a site for Cleveland and Ohio boosters, but let's be honest, Cleveland's development is not extremely impressive these days when looking at other cities.  Downtown still has a ways to go, and other areas of the city are left to rot and decay.  I am quickly giving up on Cleveland, and it's a shame, but I can't wait for the city to figure out how it will make itself more livable, fight the crime, and take advantage of its assets that so many other cities could only dream of.  Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and even Detroit are working on developments that are far more impressive than what is happening in Cleveland, and they are actually under construction. That believe it when I see mentality is alive and well in Cleveland.  I don't want to sound like a .com poster, I am still a huge booster of Cleveland, but I am really getting tired of the city not taking the steps necessary to stop its fast decline.

 

Cleveland's light/heavy rail was something that the city could proudly promote, especially over other cities that lacked rail lines (only one in Ohio).  To know that it could possibly be reduced to one main line is so disappointing.  It seems like other cities are putting smart development forward, while Cleveland takes steps back.  The city doesn't seem in touch with what the younger crowds want.  Even Sunbelt cities are thinking smarter than Cleveland these days.  So KJP, do you see this rail shutdown as most likely happening?

So KJP, I have a question.  Your article on Cleveland's RTA shutdown has received some attention over on SSC (a pretty dead forum, but pretty interesting nonetheless) especially Milwaukee's streetcar thread: Don't know if I should post links to other forums, so I will refrain from doing so.

 

I haven't had time to sit down and read the article like I would like to, but are we essentially looking at Cleveland shutting down all of the lines RTA serves outside of the red line?  If so, this is truly sad.  Cleveland is the reason I fell in love with cities and urban developments.  I remember being little, my aunt worked in 55 Public Square, and I would look down on Public Square, and seeing the area teem with life, I knew then that cities is where I wanted to be.  Now this is a site for Cleveland and Ohio boosters, but let's be honest, Cleveland's development is not extremely impressive these days when looking at other cities.  Downtown still has a ways to go, and other areas of the city are left to rot and decay.  I am quickly giving up on Cleveland, and it's a shame, but I can't wait for the city to figure out how it will make itself more livable, fight the crime, and take advantage of its assets that so many other cities could only dream of.  Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and even Detroit are working on developments that are far more impressive than what is happening in Cleveland, and they are actually under construction. That believe it when I see mentality is alive and well in Cleveland.  I don't want to sound like a .com poster, I am still a huge booster of Cleveland, but I am really getting tired of the city not taking the steps necessary to stop its fast decline.

 

Cleveland's light/heavy rail was something that the city could proudly promote, especially over other cities that lacked rail lines (only one in Ohio).  To know that it could possibly be reduced to one main line is so disappointing.  It seems like other cities are putting smart development forward, while Cleveland takes steps back.  The city doesn't seem in touch with what the younger crowds want.  Even Sunbelt cities are thinking smarter than Cleveland these days.  So KJP, do you see this rail shutdown as most likely happening?

 

This would probably be a better thread for this, as most of the discussion about this issue has taken place here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,30302.105.html

So KJP, I have a question.  Your article on Cleveland's RTA shutdown has received some attention over on SSC (a pretty dead forum, but pretty interesting nonetheless) especially Milwaukee's streetcar thread: Don't know if I should post links to other forums, so I will refrain from doing so.

 

I haven't had time to sit down and read the article like I would like to, but are we essentially looking at Cleveland shutting down all of the lines RTA serves outside of the red line?  If so, this is truly sad.  Cleveland is the reason I fell in love with cities and urban developments.  I remember being little, my aunt worked in 55 Public Square, and I would look down on Public Square, and seeing the area teem with life, I knew then that cities is where I wanted to be.  Now this is a site for Cleveland and Ohio boosters, but let's be honest, Cleveland's development is not extremely impressive these days when looking at other cities.  Downtown still has a ways to go, and other areas of the city are left to rot and decay.  I am quickly giving up on Cleveland, and it's a shame, but I can't wait for the city to figure out how it will make itself more livable, fight the crime, and take advantage of its assets that so many other cities could only dream of.  Milwaukee, Pittsburgh, and even Detroit are working on developments that are far more impressive than what is happening in Cleveland, and they are actually under construction. That believe it when I see mentality is alive and well in Cleveland.  I don't want to sound like a .com poster, I am still a huge booster of Cleveland, but I am really getting tired of the city not taking the steps necessary to stop its fast decline.

 

Cleveland's light/heavy rail was something that the city could proudly promote, especially over other cities that lacked rail lines (only one in Ohio).  To know that it could possibly be reduced to one main line is so disappointing.  It seems like other cities are putting smart development forward, while Cleveland takes steps back.  The city doesn't seem in touch with what the younger crowds want.  Even Sunbelt cities are thinking smarter than Cleveland these days.  So KJP, do you see this rail shutdown as most likely happening?

 

RTA GM Joe Calabrese responded flatly denying the rail system is on the brink of shutdown especially highlighting the 100-year-old Blue and Green lines.

 

As for Cleveland's lack of development, esp downtown, compared to places like Detroit and Pittsburgh, I'm not sure which Cleveland you're looking at, because development in Cleveland is everywhere esp downtown.  The fact that Cleveland won the 2016 RNC, and was hotly pursued by the DNC, should tell you something.

 

 

MissinOhio I agree with your overall point, although I'm not sure about promoting our rail system as a feature since they're fairly common these days in a city this size.  If we didn't have one, that would be a story.  Thankfully we still do!