January 20, 20232 yr 42 minutes ago, KJP said: Sneak peek at GCRTA’s new trains By Ken Prendergast / January 20, 2023 When the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority (GCRTA) acquired new Italian-built Breda trains for its Blue and Green light-rail lines linking Shaker Heights and downtown Cleveland, Jimmy Carter was still in the White House. It was only a few years later, in Ronald Reagan’s first term, when GCRTA received new Japanese-made Tokyu trains for its heavy-rail Red Line between Cleveland Hopkins Airport and Windermere. GCRTA is still relying on trains that predate the mullet. To say that these trains are due for a replacement is an understatement. MORE: https://neo-trans.blog/2023/01/20/sneak-peek-at-gcrtas-new-trains/ OH THEY’RE SO BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!!!! Edit: figures that the most important RTA news in a decade+ is the last post at the bottom of a page, ha. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
January 21, 20232 yr 9 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: OH THEY’RE SO BEAUTIFUL!!!!!!!!!!! Edit: figures that the most important RTA news in a decade+ is the last post at the bottom of a page, ha. I agree. They look great and it seems that RTA is getting it right.
January 21, 20232 yr About time, I’m hoping the end of the article comes to fruition, where they can get ridership numbers back, create TOD’s, and expand. Not holding my breath though.
January 21, 20232 yr Hey @KJP here’s a video of the S200 going from stairs for low level platforms to level boarding for high level platforms. I’m still curious about the platform height. I thought red line was 48”. S200 appears to be 38” in Calgary and 32” in SF. To clarify for all: steps for Blue/Green line (Shaker line) stations, level boarding for Red line stations. thank you to this person for tweeting it When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
January 21, 20232 yr Author I haven't checked out the floor height difference or heard what GCRTA intends to do about it. I suspect that's going to be covered in the station redesign RFP. If it's 10 inches of vertical gap, then GCRTA is going to have to raise the tracks at Red Line stations. At most stations, this is easily fixed by adding ballast (the small rocks in which tracks are placed) and tamping (ie tucking) it under the tracks. At others, like the airport or Tower City stations, it means making structural changes... likely using only the light-rail side of the Tower City station and raising its platforms. At the airport, either the tracks are going to have to be raised or the platform lowered. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 21, 20232 yr Why do we always state that the Waterfront line is only to serve "browns games" when it is actually the only possible transit link to Amtrak? Oh yeah, because GCRTA would need to consider providing such a service: or merely, minimally, a shuttle to Tower City.
January 21, 20232 yr LOL, so RTA's idea for a renaissance of rail usage in Cleveland is to run transit cars that are close to SRO? Maybe I'll bring one of our folding beach chairs.
January 21, 20232 yr While I hate to lose the heavy rail, transitioning the Red, Blue, and Green lines to a uniform fleet will hopefully make the RTA more competitive and financially sound. If at some point in the future when our population is increasing, should GCRTA begin to seriously explore rail expansion, I think this plan gives them more leverage as there is greater opportunity for route development with a cohesive system. While I hate to be one of “those” people, I do think folks are going to start seriously considering the North Coast as an alternative to the increasingly hot and drying southwest. Of course not soon, but rail will likely play a large part in Cleveland’s future. Now, if only there was a really useful engine from a nearby branch line that could help us reutilize some of these leftover platforms at TCC…
January 21, 20232 yr ^^ Hard disagree. When I moved to Cleveland I was shocked to see the RTA seating config basically being a bus on rails. These Siemens units are far more typical of what you find the world over. My hovercraft is full of eels
January 21, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, urb-a-saurus said: LOL, so RTA's idea for a renaissance of rail usage in Cleveland is to run transit cars that are close to SRO? Maybe I'll bring one of our folding beach chairs. There will still be PLENTY of seats for the current usage; and allowing for more standing room makes them more practical for the occasional large event that have many riders. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
January 21, 20232 yr I feel like people that are throwing a fit about seating have not been on subways in other regions and countries.
January 21, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, ELaunder said: While I hate to lose the heavy rail, transitioning the Red, Blue, and Green lines to a uniform fleet will hopefully make the RTA more competitive and financially sound. If at some point in the future when our population is increasing, should GCRTA begin to seriously explore rail expansion, I think this plan gives them more leverage as there is greater opportunity for route development with a cohesive system. While I hate to be one of “those” people, I do think folks are going to start seriously considering the North Coast as an alternative to the increasingly hot and drying southwest. Of course not soon, but rail will likely play a large part in Cleveland’s future. Now, if only there was a really useful engine from a nearby branch line that could help us reutilize some of these leftover platforms at TCC… The problem would kick in when he attended a board meeting or visited the admin offices:
January 21, 20232 yr My comment on seating or the lack thereof was based on the picture of the car's interior provided in @KJP's article. Maybe RTA will configure the car differently.
January 21, 20232 yr I mean while I overall like the (Canadian) Design, I had a gripe about the seating. While I’m aware of the seating configuration in the new train being the industry standard, I still can view the new ones as a step back in terms of comfort. If I get to experience soft comfortable seats why would I want to go backwards? I don’t mind the seating along the wall though, I think that’s more practical than what we have now. I still love that we are getting new trains and I’ll definitely still ride I will miss the subway style cars of the red line but progress is progress and I’ll adjust. I am excited to get modern interiors with updated way finding and next stop indicators.With the updated but smaller cars I wonder will RTA go back to the single cars they had on the red line rail or will they continue the two car setup. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
January 23, 20232 yr Obviously this is a long ways away but when GCRTA gets the new rail cars do you think it would be a good idea to offer a week or at least a weekend of free rail service? I think it would be a good way to introduce the new cars to people, show the new flexibility of the unified system, and show the new found reliability as well. After (At the time the new cars will be introduced) 40 years of the same old cars and the negative stigma attached to them, this may be needed Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
January 23, 20232 yr 33 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said: Obviously this is a long ways away but when GCRTA gets the new rail cars do you think it would be a good idea to offer a week or at least a weekend of free rail service? I think it would be a good way to introduce the new cars to people, show the new flexibility of the unified system, and show the new found reliability as well. After (At the time the new cars will be introduced) 40 years of the same old cars and the negative stigma attached to them, this may be needed Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Love it--and would be a great week for a UO Rapid Pub Crawl as well!
January 26, 20232 yr Author "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 27, 20232 yr Author "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 30, 20232 yr So I have a question. From KJP's article, it looks like since the rumored trains we are getting are smaller than the subway style trains we have, they have to alter the platforms both vertically and horizontally. I was wondering, if we ever order subway trains again (just a hypothetical) say similar to these in I believe Toronto. Would the new alterations put us in line with the national standard for rail car platform height, making it easier to just buy off the shelf? Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
January 30, 20232 yr 25 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said: So I have a question. From KJP's article, it looks like since the rumored trains we are getting are smaller than the subway style trains we have, they have to alter the platforms both vertically and horizontally. I was wondering, if we ever order subway trains again (just a hypothetical) say similar to these in I believe Toronto. Would the new alterations put us in line with the national standard for rail car platform height, making it easier to just buy off the shelf? Sent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk I hope Ken responds too, but here’s my understanding: - Siemens S200 (the rumored new train sets) have a floor height that is not as high as a traditional heavy rail vehicle. They are also narrower. - RTA will issue a Request-for-Proposal to modify Red Line stations to accommodate the new vehicles. Logically, this would consist of raising track heights (easier than lowering platforms); and adding a new cantilevered edge along the platforms that “fills the gap” that the new narrower vehicles would otherwise leave. - Realistically, this means no heavy rail trains would fit RedLine stations anymore. That said, all new HRV are all permanently paired and do not fit the existing RTA maintenance facility. Basically, new HRV don’t fit the system anyway, so the other changes are irrelevant. (I mean, technically, RTA could spend a huge sum of money to expand the maintenance facility to accommodate new HRV, but then we’d have to continue with our dual car system as HRV can’t run on Shaker Lines (in Shaker) or the Waterfront line (if it ever gets turned on again) Keep in mind that there are existing system that do subway for Light Rail! Seattle, St Louis, Calgary, LA, etc. Negatives exist, but are manageable: - Lower capacity (obviously a non-factor in our current system) - No open gangways between attached vehicles (most of the time we’ll only have single vehicles running anyway) Overall I’m REALLY pleased with this decision. In the current situation, I think it’s the best possible outcome. Siemens S200 are “high floor” vehicles so we will have level boarding at all the RedLine stations, which speeds loading and overall operation. It is also more easily accessible for ADA. And they are a standard vehicle - we can piggyback off the orders of other, larger systems. Future renovations of Shaker line stations could raise platform heights to give them level boarding too. (Although I think Shaker Heights has traditionally not allowed high platforms.) Hopefully RTA gives us an official vehicle announcement and the formal RFP for station modification soon. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
January 30, 20232 yr Author I think @Boomerang_Brian is correct. I think it pretty much locks us in to being a light rail system for the foreseeable future. But if we don't start boosting ridership on this system through station area development, these may be the last rail cars RTA ever orders. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 30, 20232 yr 4 hours ago, KJP said: I think @Boomerang_Brian is correct. I think it pretty much locks us in to being a light rail system for the foreseeable future. But if we don't start boosting ridership on this system through station area development, these may be the last rail cars RTA ever orders. Is there any talk/forward thinking going on in regards to building around stations? I know some TOD is happening around some stations, but I also know you’ve said in the past that the system is more designed for the 9-5 crowd and aren’t interested in changing.
January 30, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, JB said: Is there any talk/forward thinking going on in regards to building around stations? I know some TOD is happening around some stations, but I also know you’ve said in the past that the system is more designed for the 9-5 crowd and aren’t interested in changing. I could be wrong here… but I think the red line was built for the 9-5 commuters. There used to be different schedules for rush hour vs non rush hour. Now they run every 15 min all the time sadly. More ToD is the dream.
January 31, 20232 yr 56 minutes ago, Clefan14 said: I could be wrong here… but I think the red line was built for the 9-5 commuters. There used to be different schedules for rush hour vs non rush hour. Now they run every 15 min all the time sadly. More ToD is the dream. Ah, ok thanks for the clarification, I think I may have gotten a couple things mixed up then.
January 31, 20232 yr Author 3 hours ago, JB said: Is there any talk/forward thinking going on in regards to building around stations? I know some TOD is happening around some stations, but I also know you’ve said in the past that the system is more designed for the 9-5 crowd and aren’t interested in changing. Yes, GCRTA, the city and county are embracing TOD. Check out: https://neo-trans.blog/2022/09/06/greater-cleveland-tod-initiative-on-track/ Also, GCRTA is putting together an RFP and/or a funding request for TOD land-use planning work along all of its high-frequency corridors. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 31, 20232 yr 4 minutes ago, KJP said: Yes, GCRTA, the city and county are embracing TOD. Check out: https://neo-trans.blog/2022/09/06/greater-cleveland-tod-initiative-on-track/ Also, GCRTA is putting together an RFP and/or a funding request for TOD land-use planning work along all of its high-frequency corridors. I may have missed that one. Any idea why the change of philosophy from GCRTA in regards to TOD? Seemed like they were ok or just do nothing.
January 31, 20232 yr 3 minutes ago, JB said: I may have missed that one. Any idea why the change of philosophy from GCRTA in regards to TOD? Seemed like they were ok or just do nothing. Van Aken District, Ohio City, and Little Italy have all finally provided some local examples of what ToD can be here locally. These successes give us something to build on. And considering how much raw potential there is with so many Rapid Station parking lots, there is some reason for optimism. Still a long ways to go, and it will be very important to improve headways to really enable ToD. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
January 31, 20232 yr 6 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: Van Aken District, Ohio City, and Little Italy have all finally provided some local examples of what ToD can be here locally. These successes give us something to build on. And considering how much raw potential there is with so many Rapid Station parking lots, there is some reason for optimism. Still a long ways to go, and it will be very important to improve headways to really enable ToD. Appreciate the info! That makes a lot of sense, and I’m glad those new developments are proving that TOD can be a money maker. It’s baffling how many parking lots surround the rapid stations, there’s so much potential for those.
January 31, 20232 yr Author 18 minutes ago, JB said: I may have missed that one. Any idea why the change of philosophy from GCRTA in regards to TOD? Seemed like they were ok or just do nothing. Some at RTA were very interested in TOD but many others believed the city was dying and the transit agency was just a victim of it and couldn't play any role to help stop it, if not reverse it. I'm hopeful this RTA TOD plan will propose developments (and incentives) for station parking lots. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 31, 20232 yr 49 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: Van Aken District, Ohio City, and Little Italy have all finally provided some local examples of what ToD can be here locally. These successes give us something to build on. And considering how much raw potential there is with so many Rapid Station parking lots, there is some reason for optimism. Still a long ways to go, and it will be very important to improve headways to really enable ToD. What’s the consensus on Eco Village on 65th and Lorain? That project seems like such a cool idea, but it rarely comes up in this context or in other Detroit Shoreway conversations.
January 31, 20232 yr 1 minute ago, Henke said: What’s the consensus on Eco Village on 65th and Lorain? That project seems like such a cool idea, but it rarely comes up in this context or in other Detroit Shoreway conversations. My personal opinion is that it was too small and didn’t reach critical mass. I’m a bit concerned with some of the West Blvd station proposals for the same reason, although those are still bigger than Eco Village. I think W117th is the station with the most untapped potential. Aldi, Target, and Giant Eagle all within walking distance, although ideally the pedestrian experience would be improved as part of any project there. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
January 31, 20232 yr 55 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said: My personal opinion is that it was too small and didn’t reach critical mass. I’m a bit concerned with some of the West Blvd station proposals for the same reason, although those are still bigger than Eco Village. I think W117th is the station with the most untapped potential. Aldi, Target, and Giant Eagle all within walking distance, although ideally the pedestrian experience would be improved as part of any project there. The self storage place should be prime for redevelopment. And I don't think the parking lot is still necessary. Edited January 31, 20232 yr by freefourur
January 31, 20232 yr 12 hours ago, Clefan14 said: I could be wrong here… but I think the red line was built for the 9-5 commuters. There used to be different schedules for rush hour vs non rush hour. Now they run every 15 min all the time sadly. More ToD is the dream. I vaguely remember 7 minute headways on the CTS rapid, when I was a kid, centuries ago.
February 2, 20232 yr Author On 1/30/2023 at 9:38 PM, Boomerang_Brian said: I think W117th is the station with the most untapped potential. Aldi, Target, and Giant Eagle all within walking distance, although ideally the pedestrian experience would be improved as part of any project there. The properties on the Northwest corner of West 117th and Madison have been targeted numerous times by developers seeking to buy their land. They want way too much money for their properties and it scared off developers. Ditto for the self-storage place on the south side of the tracks. That place is a cash machine and the owner, someone who lives in Florida, has rebuffed numerous offers to buy it. If RTA and each participating municipality approached in a systematic way the development of all developable properties around rapid stations for TOD, to achieve broad public benefit goals like addressing climate change, jobs access and social equity, they could have a legal mandate to acquire properties by eminent domain from owners who are unwilling or unable to join in the civic effort to pursue TOD and its benefits. Everyone deserves a fair price for their property but standing in the way of achieving public benefits and addressing overarching problems is not acceptable. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 6, 20232 yr Author "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 7, 20232 yr Author A Twitter account worth following... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 8, 20232 yr Some quality Reddit content https://www.reddit.com/r/Cleveland/comments/10w9kcz/every_rta_station_ranked/ My hovercraft is full of eels
February 8, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, roman totale XVII said: Some quality Reddit content https://www.reddit.com/r/Cleveland/comments/10w9kcz/every_rta_station_ranked/ Absolute *FANTASTIC* content. I think we need to recruit that poster to UrbanOhio When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 8, 20232 yr Author Great article and ranking. I agree with most station rankings. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 9, 20232 yr Author Nice video!! Mayor Bibb! And....yuck "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 10, 20232 yr Author When our communities are built around transit, it doesn't matter that people are working remotely. The trains and buses are still full of people taking transit to the store, school, lunch meetings, medical appointments, theater, nightlife, etc. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 10, 20232 yr They actually have a video on the healthline that brings up some major flaws that I've been meaning to share. Most notably the odd decision to have BRT with no dedicated lanes or signals in the busiest area traffic wise in Cleveland. Safe to say our transit didn't leave a good impression, because they mocked our closed waterfront line as well.
February 13, 20232 yr Author Now what? "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 13, 20232 yr On 2/10/2023 at 5:43 PM, MyPhoneDead said: They actually have a video on the healthline that brings up some major flaws that I've been meaning to share. Most notably the odd decision to have BRT with no dedicated lanes or signals in the busiest area traffic wise in Cleveland. Safe to say our transit didn't leave a good impression, because they mocked our closed waterfront line as well. Probably one of the few things I agree with these two about. BRT without dedicated lanes and signal priority is an oxymoron.
February 13, 20232 yr On 2/10/2023 at 8:36 AM, KJP said: When our communities are built around transit, it doesn't matter that people are working remotely. The trains and buses are still full of people taking transit to the store, school, lunch meetings, medical appointments, theater, nightlife, etc. I would say that the few people in this area who do those things and have options started out commuting.
February 13, 20232 yr Those kids walk by the MIckey's building in East Cleveland. Clearly it's vacant, but there were talks last year about it becoming biotech or life sciences buidling. Across the street is the Circle East townhomes. Still, a pretty desolate area. The filmers were definitely heading southwest quickly.
February 13, 20232 yr The Red Line ridealong video speaks to what I think is one of the most bizarre aspects if GCRTA which is the confounding lack of standardization for how they announce stations. Sometimes it's the recording, sometimes it's the operator, sometimes it's both, and sometimes there's nothing. It seems like it would be such a straightforward operating policy and yet ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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