On 7/8/2024 at 10:29 AM, urb-a-saurus said:

Excerpted from an OMOT.org. article

 

"Under different names at different times, the village (now city) of Maple Heights has operated direct bus service to Public Square  and a crosstown line connecting with the Van Aken Boulevard line of Shaker Heights Rapid Transit ever since 1935."

 

"Midday and Saturday service to Cleveland is offered every half hour, with Sunday trips every two hours. Headways on the Dunham-Crosstown route are about the same."

 

Did Maple Hts. Transit only have two routes or were there more?

 

 

Mainly two routes, I think there were three at one point.   Equivalent amounts of equipment and personnel.

 

Not all bad decisions are fixable, especially decades later.   The point has always been that it the merger greatly degraded the quality of mass transit in this area.   Everything seemed to drop to the lowest common denominator, which of course paralleled the aggressive refusal to take any actions that might appeal to people with other options.  To a point, MHTS was another option, and one that made GCRTA look bad in comparison.   So of course, once the merger agreement allowed them to do so the latter fully absorbed the former, and dragged it down to its level.

 

Oh....the agreement (or perhaps the federal law encouraging it) forbade (and IIRC forbids) GCRTA from running private charters.  That was profitable business for GHTS and MHTS, perhaps CTS and NOTS as well.

 

Competition in the 2020s could take many forms.   Autonomous regions, perhaps.    Private commuter rail.   Laketran is smaller and seems to do a much better job.

It must be intentional. Announcing that half your trains aren't running is the easiest communication to make, and one should not have to look at that s**tty website and try to navigate it, especially a tourist unfamiliar with the area.

 

And I know I'm repeating myself, but there was virtually no indication how to get to the shuttles outside Tower City. No arrows showing which exit. No personnel pointing to the right exit. I had to go outside (went the wrong way to Ontario) and walk around the complex looking at every bus, and even considered heading to Huron since the buses on Prospect were the wrong numbers.

 

Once on the bus and after our pilot finished his cigarettes and loud phone call, we  headed east on wherever, then Woodlawn, then Shaker, then Van Aken (I got off at Warrensville). The bus driver was not announcing stops; frankly, it was unclear if there even were stops. The shuttle had no maps of its destination (fellow confused passengers seemed to think it would head to Van Aken and terminate at Green Rd).

 

Now the website does verify this route- https://www.riderta.com/riders-alerts/67r-buses-east-of-tower-city - but it's not the easiest to locate and follow on one's phone. The driver should have been announcing stops each time since the shuttle's electronic monitor didn't have any pertinent information.

 

A 5-year-old would see this replacement route is confusing and requires active communication from RTA personnel at certain stages. Their silence is incompentence, belligerence, or some kind of soft protest. Probably a combination of the three.

 

Rant over - thanks RTA.

 

 

Edited July 11, 2024Jul 11 by TBideon

This transit advocate went to two Guardians games in June with transit advocates. I drove both times. Parked for free for the first game. Parked for $30 for the second (on-street parking was hard to find during Superman filming). Didn't regret it.

 

The last time I took transit to a game, we were heading home and got on the 55 at Public Square while the driver slept on the handicap seats. He chewed out my friend and I for talking and interrupting his sleep. That was it for me. I don't need to walk the gauntlet of homeless at the West 117 station and I don't need to ride with people with mental problems who are either driving or riding. The next time I take transit in Cleveland will probably be to see the new trains in 2026.

^ It's stories like these that make me cringe when good intentioned people here propose making downtown "free" parking artificially more scarce.  

1 hour ago, KJP said:

This transit advocate went to two Guardians games in June with transit advocates. I drove both times. Parked for free for the first game. Parked for $30 for the second (on-street parking was hard to find during Superman filming). Didn't regret it.

 

The last time I took transit to a game, we were heading home and got on the 55 at Public Square while the driver slept on the handicap seats. He chewed out my friend and I for talking and interrupting his sleep. That was it for me. I don't need to walk the gauntlet of homeless at the West 117 station and I don't need to ride with people with mental problems who are either driving or riding. The next time I take transit in Cleveland will probably be to see the new trains in 2026.

 

I'll push back on this.

 

There's plenty of good folks that take transit in Cleveland, and we need all that we can get. Opening/closing the bike rack or raising the handicap-accessible seat in anticipation for someone getting on, helps get the bus moving and makes everyone's life easier. The driver doesn't have to get up and you just made someone's day a little better.

 

While I'm sorry to hear about your poor experience, lets not pretend like this isn't anecdotal. With all due respect, Ken, you should know better.

 

16 minutes ago, surfohio said:

^ It's stories like these that make me cringe when good intentioned people here propose making downtown "free" parking artificially more scarce.  

 

As a downtown resident, I utterly despise this sentiment.  So much of my neighborhood is dedicated to subsidizing suburbanites and their travel preferences. I get quite frustrated at their utter refusal to accept that Cleveland's development shouldn't be held hostage by non-residents' demands of convenience.

 

Parking lots and garages are deceptively expensive to build and maintain, and ruin the livability of a neighborhood. Something like 70% of sporting event attendees don't even live in the city or county. Why do I, the resident, have to pay for your "free" parking while having to deal with the hole left in my block the other 360 days a year you aren't there?

 

How will transit improve in Cleveland if we refuse to use it while ignoring the negative externalities of car-centric development? This is UrbanOhio, right?

^As I was about to post @Zagapi responded and I 100% agreed with their sentiments.

 

It's unfortunate to see people's RTA "horror" stories here. This is all anecdotal but I just rode the Blue line twice from Van Aken to downtown (before the track work began), once for Pride and once just to visit downtown. I actually went out of my way to ride the second time because of my positive experience going to Pride. Both times had no issues, the trains were decently packed, on time and I was pleasantly surprised by the convenience. Now to be extremely clear I infrequently ride the RTA, but a week later I was in Chicago and other than the actual breadth and frequency of the CTA system compared to RTA I saw the same types of people and generally same conditions of trains and upkeep. I never felt more/less safe on RTA than I did in Chicago. Take my anecdote how you will.

1 hour ago, Zagapi said:

 

I'll push back on this.

 

There's plenty of good folks that take transit in Cleveland, and we need all that we can get. Opening/closing the bike rack or raising the handicap-accessible seat in anticipation for someone getting on, helps get the bus moving and makes everyone's life easier. The driver doesn't have to get up and you just made someone's day a little better.

 

While I'm sorry to hear about your poor experience, lets not pretend like this isn't anecdotal. With all due respect, Ken, you should know better.

 

 

As a downtown resident, I utterly despise this sentiment.  So much of my neighborhood is dedicated to subsidizing suburbanites and their travel preferences. I get quite frustrated at their utter refusal to accept that Cleveland's development shouldn't be held hostage by non-residents' demands of convenience.

 

Parking lots and garages are deceptively expensive to build and maintain, and ruin the livability of a neighborhood. Something like 70% of sporting event attendees don't even live in the city or county. Why do I, the resident, have to pay for your "free" parking while having to deal with the hole left in my block the other 360 days a year you aren't there?

 

How will transit improve in Cleveland if we refuse to use it while ignoring the negative externalities of car-centric development? This is UrbanOhio, right?

 

Here's what I said: when good intentioned people here propose making downtown "free" parking artificially more scarce. 

 

The folks who hate on-street parking the most are the corporate garage and surface lot owners. You are beating a strawman to death here because nobody on this site is advocating for that. 

 

Mind you I probably use the RTA Red Line more than most everyone. And I will continue to do so when it is convenient, or not impossible. I have not paid money to park anywhere in Cleveland in 20 years.  

Edited July 11, 2024Jul 11 by surfohio

1 minute ago, surfohio said:

oops sorry mods - double post

 

 

Edited July 11, 2024Jul 11 by surfohio

If you want normal (ie not obsessed with public transit for its own sake) people with options to take public transit, the trains need to run on time and be free of crazy people. Faster, cheaper, and more frequent service help, but there's nothing like having to deal with crazy people or getting stuck in the cold to make a potential regular rider say never again. Also, I find it odd that it often seems that RTA's strongest defenders on here are its least frequent riders. 

 

Bring on time is a basic competence issue. Crazy people is a more complicated issue involving security, policing, and fare collection. I'd argue keeping the crazies off is the more important of the two issues. (Another reminder that 50% of people are women and what may feel uncomfortable to most of us on this site will likely feel unsafe to most women.) First step to getting more butts back on train seats is to stop allowing them to be used as a homeless shelter for the mentally disturbed. We have resources to deal with that problem, our public transportation can't be allowed to de facto become one of those resources.

^ It always seemed RTA was more or less catering to a captive audience at the expense of winning over people with other options. If you are in "barely surviving mode" I get it, but it's a non-sustainable death spiral. Especially in a state like Ohio that is run by people who hate cities and public transit. 

Barring mass incarceration or institutionalization, of which neither will happen, the crazies, addicts, thugs and homeless aren't going anywhere.

 

Historically there have been enough normal people for balance; since Covid that balance has completely changed. MTA and CTA have suffered tremendously. DC Metro and BART a little less. RTA, well, the differences seem negligible.

 

Hell, if anything the T is even safer. 

1 minute ago, TBideon said:

Barring mass incarceration or institutionalization, of which neither will happen, the crazies, addicts, thugs and homeless aren't going anywhere.

 

I remember flying into CLE late. The W117 rapid was filled with people sleeping inside. I can totally empathize with that since it was like 10 degrees outside. My ire is 100 percent more toward the societal and budgetary reasons why these transit stations are unstaffed and have no restrooms. 

I think the issue with public restrooms is, budget aside and a problem seemingly unique to America, they quickly become drug dens. Probably a pay-per-piss approach is the best we can do.

4 hours ago, TBideon said:

I think the issue with public restrooms is, budget aside and a problem seemingly unique to America, they quickly become drug dens. Probably a pay-per-piss approach is the best we can do.

I have used both free and paid public toilets in Switzerland that had blue lights, were basically 100% stainless steel inside, and some wpuld self clean after each use. The blue lights to prevent drug users from being able to see their veins, and stainless for very easy clean up. Unless we're willing to staff them, something like that is probably the best option. 

 

 

My vote would be for something like a $1 fee or an active RTA ticket, and staffed. That way you have someone there to keep it clean, and hopefully calm, while getting some money back to help cover the attendants cost.

The number of homeless on transit and the increase in homeless camps around town is why I've increasingly spent more time and money out in the suburbs with my family. And when I do go downtown, parking is way too easy, cleaner, more reliable and cheaper than RTA, especially when I'm with my wife and son which is a lot. So yes, I do know better. I have better choices and I'm choosing them.

1 hour ago, KJP said:

The number of homeless on transit and the increase in homeless camps around town is why I've increasingly spent more time and money out in the suburbs with my family. And when I do go downtown, parking is way too easy, cleaner, more reliable and cheaper than RTA, especially when I'm with my wife and son which is a lot. So yes, I do know better. I have better choices and I'm choosing them.

 

We have a lot of newer posters who may not realize this, but someone like Ken saying this speaks volumes.  

 

It shouldn't be surprising that other people who live in the city because it's fun and/or convenient bail out to the burbs when they have kids.

Edited July 12, 2024Jul 12 by E Rocc

17 hours ago, TBideon said:

I think the issue with public restrooms is, budget aside and a problem seemingly unique to America, they quickly become drug dens. Probably a pay-per-piss approach is the best we can do.

 

I've heard similar happens in France and some Latin American nations.

Edited July 12, 2024Jul 12 by E Rocc

1 hour ago, E Rocc said:

It shouldn't be surprising that other people who live in the city because it's fun and/or convenient bail out to the burbs when they have kids.

That’s actually bad news for the burbs (proven by recent pop. data) as the number of childless couples has hit an all-time high in the US. Additionally, those that are having kids, are having less of them and are having them at older ages than previous generations. 
 

Less “convenient bails” are needed, which is why suburbs like Mentor, Solon, Brecksville, Broadview, Westlake, etc. have all struggled with population losses recently. 

Edited July 12, 2024Jul 12 by Clefan98

43 minutes ago, Clefan98 said:

That’s actually bad news for the burbs (proven by recent pop. data) as the number of childless couples has hit an all-time high in the US. Additionally, those that are having kids, are having less of them and are having them at older ages than previous generations. 
 

Less “convenient bails” are needed, which is why suburbs like Mentor, Solon, Brecksville, Broadview, Westlake, etc. have all struggled with population losses recently. 

Ya things are changing. Less couples having children, and more couples are deciding to stay in the city after having kids. Tremont, OHC, and Gordon Square are filled with kids these days. There are 21 apartment units on my floor, and 5 of them have kids under 10. There are school busses making stops Downtown again. Most of the people I know that have moved away from CMSD are moving to Lakewood or Cleveland Heights instead of the cities you mentioned that families used to move to. I even know a couple who moved to Strongsville after having a baby, but hated it so much after living in OHC for nearly a decade that they sold their house within 2 years and are renting up here again was until they find a house they like. 

On 7/11/2024 at 9:30 AM, KJP said:

This transit advocate went to two Guardians games in June with transit advocates. I drove both times. Parked for free for the first game. Parked for $30 for the second (on-street parking was hard to find during Superman filming). Didn't regret it.

 

The last time I took transit to a game, we were heading home and got on the 55 at Public Square while the driver slept on the handicap seats. He chewed out my friend and I for talking and interrupting his sleep. That was it for me. I don't need to walk the gauntlet of homeless at the West 117 station and I don't need to ride with people with mental problems who are either driving or riding. The next time I take transit in Cleveland will probably be to see the new trains in 2026.

As someone who consistently uses the w117 station this is so dramatic. God forbid you be inconvenienced. I’ve used this station at all times of the day and all days of the week without an issue. Uncomfortable conversations with some individuals struggling? Sure, but they are humans and I think we all could use some self/situational awareness and compassion instead of judgement and arrogance.

 

could the system be greatly improved as we all discuss? Sure! But our state is hell bent on making us into Mississippi and will continue to starve public transportation and education in favor of privatized systems run by their donors.

 

I lived in Columbus for 11 years and would have KILLED for the transit system Cleveland has. And I think Columbus could do this very easily considering how consolidated their employment/other destinations are, but they struggle with the same issues of the state gov and are late to the party, I digress.

Edited July 12, 2024Jul 12 by Clefan14

man, i hate the 'that's life in the big city' argument. 

1 hour ago, Clefan14 said:

As someone who consistently uses the w117 station this is so dramatic. God forbid you be inconvenienced. I’ve used this station at all times of the day and all days of the week without an issue. Uncomfortable conversations with some individuals struggling? Sure, but they are humans and I think we all could use some self/situational awareness and compassion instead of judgement and arrogance.

 

could the system be greatly improved as we all discuss? Sure! But our state is hell bent on making us into Mississippi and will continue to starve public transportation and education in favor of privatized systems run by their donors.

 

I lived in Columbus for 11 years and would have KILLED for the transit system Cleveland has. And I think Columbus could do this very easily considering how consolidated their employment/other destinations are, but they struggle with the same issues of the state gov and are late to the party, I digress.

 

Serious question:  do you have kids?

 

If no, you'd be amazed at how much it changes your perspective.

44 minutes ago, Whipjacka said:

man, i hate the 'that's life in the big city' argument. 

Agreed. It's life in an AMERICAN big city. This s**t just doesn't happen anywhere else.

 

God forbid public transports and stations stop being restrooms, motels, drug dens, and scenes of countless crimes. 

1 hour ago, Whipjacka said:

man, i hate the 'that's life in the big city' argument. 

That's not a bad stance though. What RTA is facing with the homeless problem is not an RTA problem but a societal issue throughout the United States. That's why other developed countries like Japan can have cleaner "safer" transit. The MTA has this issue, BART has this issue, etc. If this issue is to go away they need to fix structural issues within the American society and ideology when it comes to services offered to those that need it. 

39 minutes ago, TBideon said:

Agreed. It's life in an AMERICAN big city. This s**t just doesn't happen anywhere else.

 

God forbid public transports and stations stop being restrooms, motels, drug dens, and scenes of countless crimes. 

 

The thing is, when I was riding daily they weren't.

 

But the station entrance was attended and you had to pay a fare to even be on the platform.

1 hour ago, Whipjacka said:

man, i hate the 'that's life in the big city' argument. 

 

Unfortunately, these fora can become a bastion of the urbanist equivalent of "No true Scotsman".

 

Or simply a place where an honest observation that reflects the priorities of many can be an opportunity to virtue signal.

6 hours ago, MyPhoneDead said:

That's not a bad stance though. What RTA is facing with the homeless problem is not an RTA problem but a societal issue throughout the United States. That's why other developed countries like Japan can have cleaner "safer" transit. The MTA has this issue, BART has this issue, etc. If this issue is to go away they need to fix structural issues within the American society and ideology when it comes to services offered to those that need it. 

Well said. No one is denying the less-than-ideal experiences of people on the RTA, but those of us saying "it happens everywhere in the US"/"that's life in the big city" aren't saying "the RTA is fine, let's do nothing", it's saying its a societal issue in the US and should be a motivator for making the RTA a better/safer service than our peers and/or influencing public policy, rather than just giving up and not riding RTA.

 

But if calling it "virtue signaling" fits a narrative that the people who've had good experiences with the RTA are ignorant and the RTA is beyond repair, then so be it... 🙄

10 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Serious question:  do you have kids?

 

If no, you'd be amazed at how much it changes your perspective.

Thank you for asking, although not sure why the personal question matters other than for your own judgement. But to answer I have one with my second due in September.

While I hate to add to the anecdotal pile on of RTA, I took the RTA from the airport yesterday with the intent of getting off at Cedar University. Unfortunately for some unexplained reason that particular red line train terminated at Tower City. If I wanted to get to my intended stop, I would have had to wait for the next train. I don't know why that happened, a part of me is curious, but as a rider it was incredibly frustrating and seemed arbitrary. Of course there was also the obligatory crazy person. 

 

Having just got back from a trip to Ireland, and having traveled many other places besides, I think the presence of crazy people does seem to be a far more common problem in the US, and in Cleveland in particular. Claiming this is a societal problem is an unhelpful dodge. Sure, RTA can't be blamed for the fact that some people don't have homes or have mental health problems, but there are ways to deter these people from bumming around on transit. A few examples used in the trams in Dublin, cameras and signs with a phone number to report antisocial behavior. There isn't going to be a silver bullet, but there are actions that RTA could take that would help that they aren't taking. 

 

Of course the single most useful change would be to have more people riding the trains. More people dilutes the crazies and provides safety in numbers. For that to happen RTA first needs to drastically improve its reliability, trains need to run on time, to where they are supposed to go, and basically all the time. Shutting down a line and diverting people to a bus (like they just did with the blue/green line) is far too common for RTA, and for far too long when it happens. 

On 7/12/2024 at 10:52 AM, Clefan14 said:

As someone who consistently uses the w117 station this is so dramatic. God forbid you be inconvenienced. I’ve used this station at all times of the day and all days of the week without an issue. Uncomfortable conversations with some individuals struggling? Sure, but they are humans and I think we all could use some self/situational awareness and compassion instead of judgement and arrogance.

 

could the system be greatly improved as we all discuss? Sure! But our state is hell bent on making us into Mississippi and will continue to starve public transportation and education in favor of privatized systems run by their donors.

 

I lived in Columbus for 11 years and would have KILLED for the transit system Cleveland has. And I think Columbus could do this very easily considering how consolidated their employment/other destinations are, but they struggle with the same issues of the state gov and are late to the party, I digress.

Cool story, next time pay more attention to the aggressive panhandling, piss on the walls, homeless fights, and general feeling you are about to be physically assaulted for not forking over a dollar. 

 

You can ignore everything all you want, people aren't going to go out of their way to use a slow, unreliable transit system with limited useful stops when they have said above things to worry about as they wait for said slow, unreliable train. 

 

I still take the Rapid from Hopkins to Downtown. But alone. Anytime I'm with friends or family, they wouldn't be caught dead riding the train to downtown and will happily pay for an Uber after I took them on a Red Line ride and a homeless guy was having a mental crisis on the car. 

RTA takes first step toward all-electric, zero-emissions fleet

Kim Palmer | July 15th 2024

 

The Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority (RTA) last month took the first step toward a multi-decade transition from gas, diesel and low-emission compressed natural and liquid propane gas vehicles to an all-electric fleet.

 

In June, the agency released a 95-page request for proposal (RFP), looking for a consulting firm to guide the slow phase-out of all fossil fuel buses and vans that will depend on receiving a portion of a $1.5 billion in federal Modernize Bus Fleets and Deploy Clean Transit Buses Across America funds.

 

If all goes according to the RTA’s 2022 Climate Action Plan, the agency will reach 40% of its 2018 carbon emissions levels in 2030 by first replacing all diesel with low-emission vehicles.

 

https://www.crainscleveland.com/energy/rta-takes-first-step-all-electric-zero-emissions-fleet

On 7/11/2024 at 12:10 PM, Geowizical said:

Now to be extremely clear I infrequently ride the RTA, but a week later I was in Chicago and other than the actual breadth and frequency of the CTA system compared to RTA I saw the same types of people and generally same conditions of trains and upkeep. I never felt more/less safe on RTA than I did in Chicago. Take my anecdote how you will.

 

I lived in Chicago and was a daily transit user for the better part of two decades and can't say I agree with this. The CTA has it's issues for sure, but CTA trains are in better condition and the ratio of "normal" riders verses vagrants is much better. It's one thing to be one of thirty people on train car with an aggressive panhandler or unstable person, but when you're one of five it's more unnerving. 

 

Since moving to Cleveland I can't say that I've had any truly horrible experiences during the limited times I've used the RTA, but the condition of the trains and general unsavory vibe is not exactly appealing. Also a bit disheartening when half the riders don't appear to even be paying. Granted, I've not used the Blue/Green lines so maybe those are better?

 

As mentioned, the CTA has become worse too and is not exactly up to par with notable global cities (has gotten progressively worse since the Rahm Emanuel days). A decade ago I wouldn't think too much about taking 2:00am (sometimes later) trains home after a night out on the town but don't think I'd recommend that these days. Not to mention certain lines that I wouldn't mess with at all outside of rush hour.

 

Controlled access to the RTA stations would be a good start, but really Cleveland needs to densify for the system to dramatically improve. A dense downtown will make people want to take the trains as driving/parking becomes burdensome, and dense neighborhoods will create a user base (TOD please!). These circumstances will create the demand and funding for improvements. As it stands the RTA is just not very appealing vs driving.

 

  

 

 

10 hours ago, Rustbelter said:

As it stands the RTA is just not very appealing vs driving.

 

 

Until it is, TOD faces challenges that are likely insurmountable.   It's not a chicken and egg thing.  It's a clear prerequisite.   Developers have to be convinced first.

 

The frustrating thing is there used to be controlled access, to the Red Line platforms at least.  Fare collection was close to universal as well.

 

Densification will be sporadic and localized.   There's people who desire that in this area, but they are a minority.

Edited July 16, 2024Jul 16 by E Rocc

10 hours ago, Rustbelter said:

 

Also a bit disheartening when half the riders don't appear to even be paying. Granted, I've not used the Blue/Green lines so maybe those are better?

 

Controlled access to the RTA stations would be a good start, but really Cleveland needs to densify for the system to dramatically improve. A dense downtown will make people want to take

the trains as driving/parking becomes burdensome, and dense neighborhoods will create a user base (TOD please!). These circumstances will create the demand and funding for improvements. As it stands the RTA is just not very appealing vs driving.

 

I have also only used the Red line, and I'm far from an expert on public transit, but I agree that a lot of change can be implemented before the rail fleet replacement. I also agree that density around stations needs to be increased to make the transit corridors economically serve their function in the modern world. The Blue/Green lines have to be some of the only light rail lines in the world that pass by single family homes on acre lots for multiple stations in a row. 

 

These Youtubers go all over the place riding public transportation. Their recent video from 7/3/2024 on the Blue/Green lines points out a lot of issues that wouldn't take a ton of time or money for RTA to fix. Some better signage and fare payment continuity would go a long way to improving the experience. It's also not their first time taking RTA, so it's interesting watching some of their past videos and comparing them to today. 

 

 

1 hour ago, WhatUp said:

 

I have also only used the Red line, and I'm far from an expert on public transit, but I agree that a lot of change can be implemented before the rail fleet replacement. I also agree that density around stations needs to be increased to make the transit corridors economically serve their function in the modern world. The Blue/Green lines have to be some of the only light rail lines in the world that pass by single family homes on acre lots for multiple stations in a row. 

 

These Youtubers go all over the place riding public transportation. Their recent video from 7/3/2024 on the Blue/Green lines points out a lot of issues that wouldn't take a ton of time or money for RTA to fix. Some better signage and fare payment continuity would go a long way to improving the experience. It's also not their first time taking RTA, so it's interesting watching some of their past videos and comparing them to today. 

 

 

 

The Blue/Green lines were originally called the Shaker Rapid and they were designed specifically to take Shaker Heights residents downtown.   That mostly meant single family homes.    

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Until it is, TOD faces challenges that are likely insurmountable.   It's not a chicken and egg thing.  It's a clear prerequisite.   Developers have to be convinced first.

 

Not sure why you think it's insurmountable? You're absolutely right that overall demand (i.e. regional growth) needs to be the fundamental building block to entice developers. There are sprinkles of TOD in little Italy, Ohio City, and Van Aiken; but also many opportunities should demand for these neighborhoods arrive. Have to crawl before you can walk. 

 

The region should also be trying to leverage the rail transit lines for economic development, with local policies encouraging it through tax incentives along with fending off the NIMBYS. I can think of many stations that are surrounded by basically nothing of substance, along with spots for infill stations that could be a catalyst. One thing Cleveland has going for it is the "bones" are already in place; in contrast to recent rapid growth areas like Austin or Nashville that feel too big for their britches. Of course Cleveland's strength is also it's burden until some meat gets put on those bones. 

 

39 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

The Blue/Green lines were originally called the Shaker Rapid and they were designed specifically to take Shaker Heights residents downtown.   That mostly meant single family homes.    

 

Yes, designed for a different era. Still, there are TOD opportunities that should be encouraged. 

 

2 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

Densification will be sporadic and localized.   There's people who desire that in this area, but they are a minority.

 

That's no different than anywhere else. Despite what many would say, Cleveland is not competing with it's suburbs; Cleveland is competing with other cities. As mentioned I lived in Chicago for many years where there are endless suburban fiefdoms as well. Aside from the obvious differences in scale, another notable difference is that Chicago has more wealth in the inner city. Cleveland needs to attract more middle class or higher income people, which would do wonders for the regional zeitgeist on urbanism along with creating a larger tax base for that would serve all. The Chicago region is highly disfunctional and has been loosing population, but the downtown and core neighborhoods have been growing in both population and income. 

 

 

I've been in both Toronto and Amsterdam this year, where in many places you can't even see a train without going through a proof of payment gate. Both systems also allow you to just tap your credit card or phone on the gate to get through. 

 

As dumb as it may sound, downloading a new app, figuring it out, and adding a credit card to it is just an extra step keeping potential riders away. Allowing people to just tap with a card or apple pay removes one small barrier to new riders. That helps keep the platforms safer and cleaner, but those 2 cities/countries also have much better social programs for people. Their stations and trains felt very clean and safe, no one using transit as shelter. Better than any US city transit.  You'll almost never see security or transit police in US stations or actually on the transit, but it's very common in other places I've been. 

 

Unfortunately here, the failures of our society as a whole end up hurting cities and transit the most. Then it turns into a vicious cycle of cities and transit getting worse because they're some of the only places for people to get warmth and shelter, which then drives away people who have other options. Until we as a country decide to actually do something about extreme poverty, severe mental health issues, and homelessness, nothing will change. RTA doesn't have any major funding source coming to staff busier stations and add fare gates to 52 stops. We only fund transit to be barely functional for people who have no other options, nothing more. 

6 hours ago, WhatUp said:

 

I have also only used the Red line, and I'm far from an expert on public transit, but I agree that a lot of change can be implemented before the rail fleet replacement. I also agree that density around stations needs to be increased to make the transit corridors economically serve their function in the modern world. The Blue/Green lines have to be some of the only light rail lines in the world that pass by single family homes on acre lots for multiple stations in a row. 

 

These Youtubers go all over the place riding public transportation. Their recent video from 7/3/2024 on the Blue/Green lines points out a lot of issues that wouldn't take a ton of time or money for RTA to fix. Some better signage and fare payment continuity would go a long way to improving the experience. It's also not their first time taking RTA, so it's interesting watching some of their past videos and comparing them to today. 

 

 

thanks! I love these Miles In Transit videos. I wasn't aware he had posted a new one about Cleveland. The one he did about the HealthLine was funny.

1 hour ago, PlanCleveland said:

I've been in both Toronto and Amsterdam this year, where in many places you can't even see a train without going through a proof of payment gate. Both systems also allow you to just tap your credit card or phone on the gate to get through. 

 

As dumb as it may sound, downloading a new app, figuring it out, and adding a credit card to it is just an extra step keeping potential riders away. Allowing people to just tap with a card or apple pay removes one small barrier to new riders. That helps keep the platforms safer and cleaner, but those 2 cities/countries also have much better social programs for people. Their stations and trains felt very clean and safe, no one using transit as shelter. Better than any US city transit.  You'll almost never see security or transit police in US stations or actually on the transit, but it's very common in other places I've been. 

 

Unfortunately here, the failures of our society as a whole end up hurting cities and transit the most. Then it turns into a vicious cycle of cities and transit getting worse because they're some of the only places for people to get warmth and shelter, which then drives away people who have other options. Until we as a country decide to actually do something about extreme poverty, severe mental health issues, and homelessness, nothing will change. RTA doesn't have any major funding source coming to staff busier stations and add fare gates to 52 stops. We only fund transit to be barely functional for people who have no other options, nothing more. 

 

This isn't quite intentional, but it borders on it.   Early on GCRTA subscribed to Norman Krumholz's belief that there should be no catering to "fat cats".   They then covered up the attendant drop in ridership by bringing in school kids being bussed crosstown, with predictable results.

 

They turned it into a social program on wheels at the lowest common denominator, with about as much customer focus as the ODRC.  The philosophy has not changed.

Maybe some of the RTA officers riding around in SUV's should get out of them at some point to be on the trains/in the stations - not checking tickets, but idk patrolling - they have cameras if they want to be strategic. Likewise, I've never seen the 'transit ambassadors' doing anything but talking amongst each other and getting on/off the bus or train. Not sure what the point of that program is at this point.

Edited July 17, 2024Jul 17 by GISguy

57 minutes ago, GISguy said:

Maybe some of the RTA officers riding around in SUV's should get out of them at some point to be on the trains/in the stations - not checking tickets, but idk patrolling - they have cameras if they want to be strategic. Likewise, I've never seen the 'transit ambassadors' doing anything but talking amongst each other and getting on/off the bus or train. Not sure what the point of that program is at this point.

Maybe we should all make it a point to talk to Them, "What do you do?" "Have you met all the regulars on the train today? Let me introduce you."  -- that would probably throw them off a bit. 

What, and interrupt their candy crush? Don't be ridiculous. 

 

 

Edited July 17, 2024Jul 17 by TBideon

Quote

“Our new Ambassador Program is a highly visible, uniformed civilian force created with the goal of preventing violence and disruptive behavior, providing assistance during medical emergencies, and maintaining a vigilant watch over rail stations, transit centers and bus lines,” said GCRTA Chief of Police, Deirdre Jones. “Our ambassador team includes Crisis Intervention Specialists who are trained and have expertise in using conflict resolution skills to help people experiencing mental health crises.”

...

Transit Ambassadors responsibilities:

    Provide general information and assistance to riders and the public.
    Assist riders needing help with navigating GCRTA’s transit system.
    Assist riders in understanding and complying with fare policies.
    Request Transit Police assistance as needed.
    Help maintain a safe and clean environment.

https://www.riderta.com/news/GCRTATransitAmbassadorsProgram

Somehow I don't think they'll intervene on some creep harassing a girl, some thug blaring loud music or smoking, or a homeless guy sleeping in multiple seats.

 

At least through my experiences.

 

Reality is we, normal people, are pretty much on our own.

34 minutes ago, Foraker said:

https://www.riderta.com/news/GCRTATransitAmbassadorsProgram

 

If they were doing their jobs, I wouldn't have to help people find their reroutes during the filming (or other reroutes) while waiting for the bus, or just casually walking around on lunch break.

 

I've had a few different people come up to me asking where x bus is relocated to and express frustration to me, a complete stranger, about things. 

 

Seriously, the ambassador program seems so silly at this point - the contracted RTA folks conducting rider surveys were more useful (and interacted with passengers) more than them. 

 

Having been subjected to metrics and work tracking, I wonder if any dashboards or anything exist w/their interactions and what they've done as part of the program.

Edited July 17, 2024Jul 17 by GISguy

8 hours ago, GISguy said:

Maybe some of the RTA officers riding around in SUV's should get out of them at some point to be on the trains/in the stations - not checking tickets, but idk patrolling - they have cameras if they want to be strategic. Likewise, I've never seen the 'transit ambassadors' doing anything but talking amongst each other and getting on/off the bus or train. Not sure what the point of that program is at this point.

I have never seen a transit officer on any form of RTA transit. I'm guessing none of you have either. It has always annoyed me so much.

58 minutes ago, PlanCleveland said:

I have never seen a transit officer on any form of RTA transit. I'm guessing none of you have either. It has always annoyed me so much.

Go to tower city, you’ll probably see 3-4 on their phone watching Facebook videos.

The red line from Little Italy to the airport is basically free. I've taken that trip so many times and have never ever ever been asked to produce my ticket.

 

Come on RTA, don't be afraid of upsetting the freeloaders and check our tickets once in a while. Or make it free.

14 hours ago, PlanCleveland said:

I have never seen a transit officer on any form of RTA transit. I'm guessing none of you have either. It has always annoyed me so much.

I took the red line from W25th to the airport at 4am about a month ago and actually had an officer come on the train at (maybe) the W117 station. Didn’t check anyone’s fare, and asked one guy who was sleeping if he was ok.

Edited July 18, 2024Jul 18 by Enginerd

I know it’s a random data point, but I took the Heathline around 10am today from outside the Masonic Temple to E9th and am pleased to report that it was standing room only.