:clap:RIDERSHIP UP: Rising gas prices are driving more riders to public transit, both nationally and locally. In April, RTA ridership rose 4 percent, mostly in the bus area. Officials report more instances of crowded buses and fuller lots at Park-N-Ride facilities. In addition, downtown trolley ridership is up 3.5 percent, and bike rack usage is up 23 percent.

 

Jerry - is there any chance that a stop could be added on the B-Line? Specifically near West 9th and Lakeside - I took the trolley over to snap some pics of the Flats East Bank demolition, and it seemed silly that there's no stop from West 3rd, through the underpass, back up 9th and around to 6th. I don't mind walking a bit, but it was chilly out and it would have been nice to be let off closer than West 6th and Johnson Court (where the green arrow shows):

 

MayDay (thanks for including the nice map with your request!):

 

As long as it's safe to do so, i.e., the vehicle doesn't have someone tailgating it, and you ask in advance, most operators will stop to discharge passengers just after making the turn from W 9 onto W Lakeside.

 

I'm sure we can inquire about putting an "official" stop there.

"and you ask in advance, most operators will stop to discharge passengers just after making the turn from W 9 onto W Lakeside."

 

Not an option when Willie's being just a bit too chatty with a passenger. :-)

Once Ernst & Young relocates to the new office tower on West 9th, then that adds another reason to stop there!

May Day, the policy for both trolleys and circulators says that operators can make "courtesy stops" at their discretion, if traffic conditions permit. Obviously, safety is always a concern. Just stand near the curb and wave  :wave:.

I should clarify - I was already on the trolley, hoping to hop off at West 9th/Lakeside. I'd hopped off at that spot in the past (apparently other riders had my idea), so I was surprised that he didn't stop until West 6th. Then I saw there wasn't an official stop there.  :oops:

"and you ask in advance, most operators will stop to discharge passengers just after making the turn from W 9 onto W Lakeside."

 

Not an option when Willie's being just a bit too chatty with a passenger. :-)

 

understood -- feel free to interrupt him :-)

 

formal request has been communicated to our service planners, and as long as there's not a compelling reason (on-street parking requirements, safety/visibility) not to, I would think that some action might come of this...

 

sometimes the best arguments are the most simply stated...

:clap:RIDERSHIP UP: Rising gas prices are driving more riders to public transit, both nationally and locally. In April, RTA ridership rose 4 percent, mostly in the bus area. Officials report more instances of crowded buses and fuller lots at Park-N-Ride facilities. In addition, downtown trolley ridership is up 3.5 percent, and bike rack usage is up 23 percent.

 

 

Saying that ridership up is a tad misleading...Ridership is down for the year.

 

RTA ridership is down about 2.4 percent so far this year, but it's hard to find a link with fuel prices.

 

RTA blames the decline on March, when riders avoided downtown because of huge snowstorms. That month ridership was down 14 percent. Ticket sales rebounded in April, climbing about 4 percent.

 

Source:

http://www.cleveland.com/business/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/business-6/1211531627200290.xml&coll=2&thispage=3

How is this misleading? RTA provides monthly reports via news releases on RTA developments. RTA just got its April ridership in, so they announced ridership was up in April. What's the problem?

 

And I'm very interested to see what the ridership numbers are going to look like for May. I've seen crowds like I've never seen before on the buses and trains.

How is this misleading? RTA provides monthly reports via news releases on RTA developments. RTA just got its April ridership in, so they announced ridership was up in April. What's the problem?

 

And I'm very interested to see what the ridership numbers are going to look like for May. I've seen crowds like I've never seen before on the buses and trains.

 

The green line is a mess.  I wish RTA would add an extra car or go back to "10 minute" frequencies.  I HATE STANDING!

Re: ridership...both statements are correct. Ridership is down for the year, but increased in April. In both cases, we are comparing 2008 figures with 2007 figures.

 

Re: standing on the Green Line. Having to stand in a rail car is common in many transit systems...it means the resources are being used by the maximum number of people. I ride the Red Line daily, and I am more concerned with those people who take up two seats because of their "stuff", while people are standing all around them.

 

If you travel at a certain time each day and believe the Green Line is overcrowded, send me the details offline. I will forward them to Service Planning to investigate and respond.

JMasek.  I'm just bitching.  I hate standing.  I'll often let a car go by and walk to shaker square.  I do the same in NY.

 

Lately, it seems that almost any time of the day from the first train to about 11 AM or late evening albeit I've been coming into town on "game nights"

 

A serious question, is it possible to go back to the 10 Min interval weekday schedule or add a car on each train (or every other train)? 

 

I don't think you can answer that question immediately, but I thought I would just ask.

^ Jerry, while I understand your point, I tend to agree with MyTwoSense. (MTS, I thought the old, 2-car rush hour frequency was every 12 mins until RTA, around 2001,  scaled back to 1-car but increased frequencies to every 10 mins – which I’ve never liked, not the least of which is the greater congestion, and slow trips, caused by having more cars out there -- maybe I'm a few years behind, schedule-wise, but that's what I thought it was)... Anyway, at rush hour, there are way too many elderly people and women (esp those "with child") standing -- I DON'T mean, spry youngsters, like MTS...  I always yield my seat in such cases, but my 1 seat (or another one like me/mine) is hardly enough.  Remember Jerry, our Blue and Green Lines, though light rail, are in many ways more akin to commuter rail lines than typical urban LRTs.  Our system was designed to move people in comfort as much as it is in speed.  That Tokyo/Manhattan sardine can style doesn't fly in Cleveland... but where it does, it's more on the Red Line, which is more like a typical urban rail line (in some ways) than a well established, commuter-like system as are the Shaker lines...

I realize the big reason for not having two-car trains during peak periods is that the Shaker cars require an operator for each car, unlike the Red Line where multiple cars can be run by a single operator. There are also doors between the cars on the Red Line so someone can come up front to pay their fare if there is no agent at a particular station.

 

The question is, when RTA goes to its new proof-of-payment system for the Rapid and BRT lines, does that make it possible that Shaker trains can be run with a single operator, or can't the Shaker Breda cars be run in MU (multiple-unit) style?

Jerry indicated, some time ago, POP wouldn't be extended to the Blue/Green -- too many vending machines (expensive; what if one/more break down) for too many, lightly-used station stops, if I recall RTA's reasoning.  Although I noted to him Baltimore's Light Rail also has a lot of station stops, too, and still has POP/vending machines... I believe Shaker's Breda cars, now, can only be used as single units.  But even though I'm no electrical engineer, seems like these cars could be rewired so one woman could operate a 2-car train...

 

If it were me, I'd reconfigure the Breda LRT cars and extend POP through the Rapid rail and BRT system.  It's confusing enough meshing Blue/Green's historical Pay Enter-Eastbound/Pay Leave-Westbound with the current Red Line Pay-Enter system when one transfers btw the 2 systems.  Throwing POP into the mix on the Red Line/BRT alone seems to invite a host of problems.

 

Boy do we need a new, standardized Rapid transit car that can operate on all lines, allows multiple-car operation with only one driver and which doesn't resemble a "cattle car." It also needs a car body that allows the car to be easily retrofitted by the manufacturer to be powered by a hybrid electric-diesel engine. That would permit it to operate on light-density freight lines with time-of-day separation from freight traffic.

 

This discussion may seem premature since RTA just refurbished its rail cars, but the rebuilds won't last long (a decade? 15 years?). It takes a long time to plan for specifications for a new rail car, get funding, build them and test them. So a 10-year lead time is not out of the question.

Makes sense to me.

jm

 

i have a quick question about total bus numbers.

 

how many buses are used on the actual route of the upcoming euclid silver line route as of today and how many articulated busses will there be once the changeover is made?

 

thx !

This is to redirect discussions about the lack of "front-door door out" announcements at unstaffed stations. These discussions were made at the Euclid Corridor thread. They need to be made here.....

 

That lack of announcements of "front-door out" also happened on a train I was on this weekend. It fell to the passengers in the second car I was on to provide the newcomers guidance. And there are lots of newcomers with gas prices up. When we told them "front-door out" the newcomers replied they were at the front door. We said go to the front door of the front car but were hesitant to go through the doors between the cars (the train was stopped at the East 105th station). BTW, is the East 105th station platform long enough for more than a one-car train anyway??

Boy do we need a new, standardized Rapid transit car that can operate on all lines, allows multiple-car operation with only one driver and which doesn't resemble a "cattle car." It also needs a car body that allows the car to be easily retrofitted by the manufacturer to be powered by a hybrid electric-diesel engine. That would permit it to operate on light-density freight lines with time-of-day separation from freight traffic.

 

This discussion may seem premature since RTA just refurbished its rail cars, but the rebuilds won't last long (a decade? 15 years?). It takes a long time to plan for specifications for a new rail car, get funding, build them and test them. So a 10-year lead time is not out of the question.

 

One of the reasons for the refurbishing was to give RTA a chance to consider a single rail system. The car renovations buy us more time, but they are not the final solution.

How many buses are used on the actual route of the upcoming Euclid Silver Line route as of today and how many articulated busses will there be once the changeover is made?

 

Silver Line??? Oh, you mean the HealthLine. I am checking into this for you.

"Is the East 105th-Quincy station platform long enough for more than a one-car train anyway?? "

 

No, it is not, at least right now. There is some work pending on the bridge. When that is done, the platform will be extended, I am told.

That lack of announcements of "front-door out" also happened on a train I was on this weekend. It fell to the passengers in the second car I was on to provide the newcomers guidance. And there are lots of newcomers with gas prices up. When we told them "front-door out" the newcomers replied they were at the front door. We said go to the front door of the front car but were hesitant to go through the doors between the cars (the train was stopped at the East 105th station).

 

Thanks for the note. It has been forwarded to the proper people here.

JMasek, I think I saw that some of the glass had been cleaned up this morning at the brookpark rapid station.  I guess keeping up on the beer cans/bottles would be a near constant chore, since those are always prevalent but in different areas (WHY do people have to litter? there is a trash can right by the door!).  Anyway, wanted to mention that it seems cleaner.

Thanks for the note. It has been forwarded to the proper people here.

 

Thanks, Jerry.

Her opening line makes an assumption (can you identify it?). Otherwise it's a decent article.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1211877202236540.xml&coll=2

 

RTA says bigger may be better

Agency orders 20 extra-long buses

Tuesday, May 27, 2008

Sarah Hollander

Plain Dealer Reporter

 

Observant drivers may have spotted extra-long public buses making test runs around town in recent months. The new buses, which feature accordionlike connectors in the middle, are one of the main components of the Euclid Corridor Project. The Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority ordered 21 of the special buses in 2004 and will put them into service on Euclid Avenue later this year.

 

.........

 

To reach this Plain Dealer reporter:

[email protected], 216-999-4816

RTA's regular 40-foot buses cost about $300,000 less than the 60-foot alternatives on order. And they get better gas mileage - just under 4 miles per gallon compared to a little more than 3 on the larger buses.

 

[snip]

 

Unlike the more expensive diesel-electric hybrids ordered for the Euclid Corridor Project in 2004, the new batch of 60-foot buses from New Flyer of Minnesota will run on low-sulfur diesel.

 

Does anyone know the fuel efficiency figures for the diesel-electric hybrids that the ECP will use?

You can come up with an estimate based on the data in the PD article, but the fuel efficiency reporting metrics are different for vehicles that carry more than a few persons. In this case, the standard metrics are passenger miles per gallon of fuel, or if electricity is used, passenger miles per British Thermal Unit. When it comes to comparing freight ton-miles per gallon is a typical metric.

Can you?  The article describes three types of vehicles

 

1.) 40-foot buses that cost ~ $300k and get just under 4 miles per gallon

2.) New 60-foot buses that cost ~ $620k, run on low-sulfur diesel and get just over 3 miles per gallon

3.) Buses ordered for the ECP a while back, which cost some undefined amount more than Vehicle Type 2, are "diesel-electric hybrids and have an undisclosed mpg figure.

 

They only mentioned the ECP-specific vehicles once, and I was just curious how much more efficient they were than the 60-footers being ordered now.

The Rapid Transit Vehicles (RTVs) purchased for the HealthLine cost around $900,000 each. It is not an "undefined amount" -- the story just did not list it.

Jerry, What's the projected ridership of the HealthLine buses in the first full year of operation?

Jerry, What's the projected ridership of the HealthLine buses in the first full year of operation?

 

I am checking those numbers now. From history, I can tell you that the first full year of operation may not be as accurate as long-term. When the Waterfront Line opened in 1996, a lot of people rode it just for the experience, so ridership was high. I know I saw some ridership projections for the HealthLine after x number of years, when more new construction is occupied.

Jerry, What's the projected ridership of the HealthLine buses in the first full year of operation?

 

Here are numbers that we have used to date:

2003

* #6 ridership was 3.7 million, or 9.2% of RTA bus ridership

 

Projections (no date)

* 1.6 million annual new riders

* 39,000/weekday total...this breaks down to

* 22,000/weekday Euclid Avenue BRT

* 17,000/weekday Transit Zone

 

Ridership Demographics

- 42% riders from Cleveland, 17% from E. Cleveland

− 24% have household income of $10,000+

− 52% have household income from $10,000 - $50,000

− 24% have income of $50,000+

− 42% have no car, 38% have one car

− 47% use for work, 16% for school

− 87% are minority

− 67% are female

 

Thanks Jerry. So based on that, my guesstimate is that RTA's HealthLine buses will achieve approximately 159 passenger miles per gallon of fuel. Someone double-check my math, please. By comparison, if you drive alone in your Toyota Prius, you're getting about 45 passenger miles per gallon of fuel. If you've got a passenger, you're getting 90 PMPG.

How come the station-call strips in the rehabbed Blue/Green line trains don't work?  Will they be fixed?

This letter to the editor appeared in today's Plain Dealer. Yes, we could respond, but it is far better if someone from the community responds. Please feel free to write to the PD if the spirit moves you. Thanks.

 

http://www.cleveland.com/letters/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/opinion/1212049839154220.xml&coll=2

 

RTA spends money not to increase service

 

Regarding the May 27 article "RTA says bigger may be better," Clevelanders have endured decades of gradual reductions in frequency of service by the RTA. Now, with the cost of gas soaring, the RTA has an opportunity to begin reversing this trend as more people turn to public transportation. So what does the RTA do? It spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to deliberately avoid increasing service. The stupidity of the RTA's management is breathtaking.

 

Eric Klieber, Cleveland Heights

 

How come the station-call strips in the rehabbed Blue/Green line trains don't work?  Will they be fixed?

Checking on that now

It spends hundreds of thousands of dollars to deliberately avoid increasing service.

 

What is he talking about?

How come the station-call strips in the rehabbed Blue/Green line trains don't work?  Will they be fixed?

Checking on that now

 

You know, I'm glad that was brought up and being investigated.  I thought this was just an issue on the couple of trains I was on.

^^If I understand the letter correctly (a big if), it's not as crazy as it sounds.  RTA is buying the articulated buses so it can increase capacity without increasing the number of buses on certain routes.  Additional buses mean shorter waiting times, articulated buses don't.  This is tough to refute as a citizen, because it comes down to RTA's finances.  I'm guessing that the truthful response is that the Fed Gov't is paying for most of these buses so RTA's share of the extra cost is still smaller than the cost of running additional conventional buses on these routes.

Mr. Masek/Mr..Jetdog, a few questions...Sorry if these have already been discussed.

 

Have there been any recent, internal discussions for extending the green line through Gates Mills (like it was supposed to originally).  The way gas prices are rising, I can see some discussion in rail extension since a lot of eastsiders are likely looking for alternatives.

 

What kind of ceremony can we expect with the completion of the Euclid Corridor Project.

 

Maybe this was discussed earlier - is there any potential rail extension to better connect the red line with Little Italy?  I thought I read something about that.

 

Any chance the trains will be wireless in the near future or is that way outside your purview?

 

This is more of a comment.  It's a little strange that passes cost $1.75 each way but $4.00 for a day pass (which for most people is probably only used twice a day and thus $.50 more expensive).  At least to me, this is backwards, as I would imagine RTA wants people using these cards rather than clunking $1.75 twice a day (for time and aesthetic reasons).  The pricing difference gives most people incentive to not buy the cards (why waste $.50), which often results in long lines at Tower City.  This is sort of like backwards price discrimination...  Just my opinion

 

Oh, and one more thing.  I'm sure a lot of people here will disagree with me, but the free trolleys driving around Cleveland.  They are nice enough when it's snowy, but to me, they are unnecessary, add to traffic congestion, probably a bit wasteful of gas, and probably can't save someone more than 6 or 7 minutes.  Just a bit of a stream of consciousness moment here, not looking to get into a major argument or anything

^^If I understand the letter correctly (a big if), it's not as crazy as it sounds.  RTA is buying the articulated buses so it can increase capacity without increasing the number of buses on certain routes.  Additional buses mean shorter waiting times, articulated buses don't.  This is tough to refute as a citizen, because it comes down to RTA's finances.  I'm guessing that the truthful response is that the Fed Gov't is paying for most of these buses so RTA's share of the extra cost is still smaller than the cost of running additional conventional buses on these routes.

 

It may be tough to refute as a citizen, but you've done a commendable job (which is one of the reasons I enjoy conversing on this site). You also interpreted the original letter correctly -- service increases can be interpreted as frequency increase, or capacity increase. We've chosen to go the capacity-increase route, as it's more economically feasible. Capacity increase = bigger vehicles, minimal increase in maintenance/overhead (which can be mitigated through careful planning of sourcing so as to use a common parts/training base wherever possible); frequency increase = more vehicles, more maintenance, more drivers, more overhead, etc...

 

We'd all like the bus to be there when we're at the stop, or within five minutes, WHENEVER that five minutes may be and WHEREVER that stop may be, that is not an economically realistic view of ANY public transportation system. Never mind the price of gasoline, has anyone seen what has happened to the price of diesel fuel lately? While we don't pay retail price, it's enough to say that the price we do pay is substantially higher than what was originally budgeted.

Oh, and one more thing.  I'm sure a lot of people here will disagree with me, but the free trolleys driving around Cleveland.  They are nice enough when it's snowy, but to me, they are unnecessary, add to traffic congestion, probably a bit wasteful of gas, and probably can't save someone more than 6 or 7 minutes.  Just a bit of a stream of consciousness moment here, not looking to get into a major argument or anything

 

I couldn't disagree more.  As someone who lives in gateway... the e-line provides me direct access to the WHD, otherwise I'm looking at a 1+ mile walk.  And the both of them also connect the CBD to other parts of downtown, which wasn't really done effectively before.  I think they're a godsend.

^Amen. Love the B-Line for getting to the WHD on my lunch breaks.

Oh, and one more thing.  I'm sure a lot of people here will disagree with me, but the free trolleys driving around Cleveland.  They are nice enough when it's snowy, but to me, they are unnecessary, add to traffic congestion, probably a bit wasteful of gas, and probably can't save someone more than 6 or 7 minutes.  Just a bit of a stream of consciousness moment here, not looking to get into a major argument or anything

I think the idea of the Trolleys is to get more walkers on the street and less cars - traffic congestion - on the street.  I enjoy using them and appreciate the fact that we have them.

Oh, and one more thing.  I'm sure a lot of people here will disagree with me, but the free trolleys driving around Cleveland.  They are nice enough when it's snowy, but to me, they are unnecessary, add to traffic congestion, probably a bit wasteful of gas, and probably can't save someone more than 6 or 7 minutes.  Just a bit of a stream of consciousness moment here, not looking to get into a major argument or anything

 

Nothing wrong with that... I'll let Jerry dive into the other points you've raised, but I'll take this softball :-). Being a frequent user of them myself, I can say that the students at CSU and the downtown workers in local government LOVE them (ever try to ride one between 7:30am and 9:00am? be prepared to stand). Our ridership numbers for April tallied about 78,000 passengers between the two loops. Much of the funding for the trolleys comes from periodic sponsorships (the latest of which came from Dollar Bank, who have been enjoying tremendous growth downtown).

 

This says nothing about the positive impression given to out-of-towners who visit. Having a regular, free downtown loop service is a definite amenity, and one that we are able to provide at minimal incremental cost, since these modern trolleys are based on a standard bus chassis. The goodwill that can be gained from that can't necessarily be measured in dollars.

And I definitely used them during the winter.  It's just that, I dunno, it's summer(ish) and nice outside.  I'd rather see people walking outside to their destinations rather than the trollys, even if it means a few extra minutes away from the office.

 

Unless those people would just drive to their destinations in the alternative.  Then obviously the trolleys are better. 

 

 

good point about the goodwill.  that's definitely an intangible we can never have enough of