^^I have run into this as well.  There are a lot of new riders and they don't know if "windermere" is actually going to downtown.

OK, let's not get carried away here in describing the airport station's importance. The airport station is not very heavily used (about 600 riders per day, most of whom are airport employees). The station does carry a PR value, however. Yet if we're going to assign importance to stations based on substance (ie: actual usage), none is more important that Tower City Center.

I'm surprised only 600 use it.  I ride it many times and at varying times of the day.  I see a lot of people (tourist) with bags, etc. that aren't employees.  I "thought" that ridership to/from that station would be higher.

Now, i can

Nice old pic - One thing I did notice was that the destination title on that old train is Downtown-Windermere.  I was thinking that it'd be nice to have 4 options on the little sign thing instead of just the two current "Airport" and "Windermere".  I have gotten asked several times about "Which way is downtown?"  It would be sweet if an eastbound train could display "Downtowh-Windermere" until reaching TC and then just "Windermere" afterwards and if a westbound train could display "Downtown-Airport" until reaching TC and then just "Airport" afterwards.  I know that's nitpicky, but that's just something that could help improve ease of use for out-of-towners.  It would be nice if it said "Downtown" on the other lines too seeing as not everyone knows the downtown station is called Tower City.

 

OK.  Now you can insert MayDays previous comment.  There is only ONE direction the train is going in from the Airport.  In addition, there is signage on the train platforms.  This isn't a Cleveland thing, it happens in NYC, Philly, DC and Chicago as well, however, our system is pretty straight forward.

 

If a person can't read the sign, barring any disabilities, then maybe they don't need to ride.

 

Sorry, I was more referring to other stops along the line, not just at the airport.  People come visit Case and sometimes have difficulty getting on the correct train.  People are morons, yes I realize......  It was just something that I noticed in that old picture that they changed, that's all.

 

EDIT:  Also, this isn't something that needs to be done right this second....  just something to consider the next time they buy new trains.

600 people?  If it runs 19 hrs/day w/ 4 trips an hour, that's less than 8 people per ride!  That number should be much bigger!  Who knows though, if/when flights are cut drastically this fall!

If a person can't read the sign, barring any disabilities, then maybe they don't need to ride.

I don’t like that attitude.  Besides, I think lesser educated, even illiterate, people make up a solid core of who should and does use public transportation.

If a person can't read the sign, barring any disabilities, then maybe they don't need to ride.

I don’t like that attitude.  Besides, I think lesser educated, even illiterate, people make up a solid core of who should and does use public transportation.

 

I agree. I think anything that stops someone from using public transportation (whether maps are too complicated, signage too confusing, etc) needs to be fixed and simplified as much as possible.

 

I think it's another way to "market" to as wide of a demographic as possible.

DoctaB, I hear what you're saying.  In general, the route IDs and vehicle and platform signage are designed with regular riders in mind, which covers a huge chunk of ridership.  But there might be some easy things that could be done to make it easier.  For instance, in the some of the photos/renderings of new ECP stations, the signage I saw indicated directions as "Eastbound" or "Westbound" which doesn't mean as much to a lot of people as it probably should.  Compare this with "Uptown" v. "Downtown" or "Inbound" v. "Outbound" direction vocabulary used in other cities which IMHO are much more intuitive.  For all I know the finished ECP stations will also have the destination info (Downtown, University Circle, East Cleveland) so it won't be an issue, but that's certainly the kind of stuff that should on the platform if it's not. 

 

Next time I'm home I'm going to do a little photo thread of RTA signage so we can really get our micro managing kicks.

If a person can't read the sign, barring any disabilities, then maybe they don't need to ride.

I don’t like that attitude.  Besides, I think lesser educated, even illiterate, people make up a solid core of who should and does use public transportation.

 

I agree. I think anything that stops someone from using public transportation (whether maps are too complicated, signage too confusing, etc) needs to be fixed and simplified as much as possible.

 

I think it's another way to "market" to as wide of a demographic as possible.

 

Guys go back and read MayDay's previous comment when I posted the airport signage question.  Our system isn't complicated compared to NYC, Boston or Philly (now those are two complicated systems to understand), or Newark.  I won't use Chicago as its pretty easy to understand as well.

 

The point im making is Cleveland system has clear maps and (directional) signage.  Can anyone give an example of a confusing station with a picture to illustrate? 

I know there are more complicated systems, it's just something small that could be done when new trains are purchased to increase the user-friendliness of our best public transit system in the USA :)

They don't need new trains to change the signage on the train.

Yeah, I only said new trains to make it easier to swallow from a financial standpoint.  I have no idea what the cost of changing existing signage would be.  Maybe it's not that much, but I personally don't know.

They added "Louis Stokes" to many trains, whcih seemed like a waste of money at the time, but I am not sure what the cost is...

I know there are more complicated systems, it's just something small that could be done when new trains are purchased to increase the user-friendliness of our best public transit system in the USA :)

Yeah, I only said new trains to make it easier to swallow from a financial standpoint.  I have no idea what the cost of changing existing signage would be.  Maybe it's not that much, but I personally don't know.

 

I'm confused (no comments from the peanut gallery).  Just so we're on the same page and I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying the signage on the vehicles (busses, trains, etc.) isn't clear? Or the platforms, bus shelters, website isn't clear?  or both?

 

They added "Louis Stokes" to many trains, whcih seemed like a waste of money at the time, but I am not sure what the cost is...

I'm sure the panel switches/scrolls are done "in-house".  The cost of that has to be minimal.

 

New signs: perhaps $1,000 or so for the whole fleet

new trains: $3 million-$6 million each

I also think the map can be relatively confusing. I'm speaking about the Rapid map specifically.

 

How does anyone know what all the numbers are? Why are the stops numbered? I mean, for me I understand what it all means. But would someone else know? I think it could be a bit cluttered as it stands right now.

 

I don't think that agencies should ever say "Oh, that agency is doing it and so it's okay and we don't need to change that." I think agencies should, as much as possible, be doing whatever they can to keep transit simple for people to comprehend so that as many people as possible can take advantage of its benefits.

I know there are more complicated systems, it's just something small that could be done when new trains are purchased to increase the user-friendliness of our best public transit system in the USA :)

Yeah, I only said new trains to make it easier to swallow from a financial standpoint. I have no idea what the cost of changing existing signage would be. Maybe it's not that much, but I personally don't know.

 

I'm confused (no comments from the peanut gallery). Just so we're on the same page and I'm understanding you correctly, are you saying the signage on the vehicles (busses, trains, etc.) isn't clear? Or the platforms, bus shelters, website isn't clear? or both?

 

They added "Louis Stokes" to many trains, whcih seemed like a waste of money at the time, but I am not sure what the cost is...

I'm sure the panel switches/scrolls are done "in-house". The cost of that has to be minimal.

 

 

I'm talking about the scrolling signs on the trains.  I know there are signs with stops listed on the platforms, it would just be easy to say, "Oh look, there's a train, and it's going downtown".

 

Also, I thought KJP or someone said something about new trains in a few years a while back....  That's why I said new trains.  I could be imagining that, though.

I don't think the station in the airport itself needs to be improved.

 

I think what would help is if

 

A) The RTA person in the window could give you change (and sell you a ticket) rather than having to stick the smallest bill a person might happen to have in the change machine, get a bunch of Sacajawea coins in return, then put your coins in the machine and carry around a bunch of extras or...

 

B) They had vending machines where you could buy your ticket (like most all other subways/rails I have seen)...especially at the airport station if not at all stations.

 

In general, I think the ticket buying and ticket using process could be improved...it needs to be at least consistent.

I don't think the station in the airport itself needs to be improved.

 

I think what would help is if

 

A) The RTA person in the window could give you change (and sell you a ticket) rather than having to stick the smallest bill a person might happen to have in the change machine, get a bunch of Sacajawea coins in return, then put your coins in the machine and carry around a bunch of extras or...

 

B) They had vending machines where you could buy your ticket (like most all other subways/rails I have seen)...especially at the airport station if not at all stations.

 

In general, I think the ticket buying and ticket using process could be improved...it needs to be at least

 

Thats a system wide issue, which is soon to change.  You'll see discussed up thread with comments from Jerry and KJP.

^Actually, looking through the past discussions, I'm not sure this precise concern has been fully addressed.  I couldn't find the answer, anyway, but I can't promise it's not there.

 

Jerry (or anyone else who knows or who finds an earlier post answering this): how will the new ticket vending machines to be installed in anticipation of POP work?  Will they dispense change?  Take credit cards?

 

I also think the map can be relatively confusing. I'm speaking about the Rapid map specifically.

 

How does anyone know what all the numbers are? Why are the stops numbered? I mean, for me I understand what it all means. But would someone else know? I think it could be a bit cluttered as it stands right now.

 

I don't think that agencies should ever say "Oh, that agency is doing it and so it's okay and we don't need to change that." I think agencies should, as much as possible, be doing whatever they can to keep transit simple for people to comprehend so that as many people as possible can take advantage of its benefits.

 

Well, I'm not sure who poked who, or if it was completely coincidental, but just as I was reading this, I received from our graphic artist a new, simplified Rapid system map.

 

It has now been posted, replacing the old, confusing, numbered-stations map. You're welcome :-).

Dude!

 

I have to start asking for stuff more often.

 

Muuuuuch better, JeTDoG! Good job! I think that'll be much clearer for people.

 

I do miss the bus line connection info. However, it's probably best to leave it off.

That revised rapid map is pretty sharp!  Though like jpop, I wonder if removing connecting bus info was throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

Quick observation that the new map prompted me to make:  It made intuitive sense to me when it was explained that the green and blue lines couldn't go POP (and hence had to keep the confusing current payment system) because there were too many stations requiring too many ticket machines.  I note, though, that the Healthline has even more stations and is projected to carry even fewer riders.  So there.

Will RTA add the Healthline route on the Rapid maps? 

Thanks for the new map. Unfortunately, there was no "P" at any of the stations on the Blue and Green lines designating them with free parking lots. And as you know, there are free lots at Green, West Green, Warrensville, Farnsleigh, Lynnefield, Kenmore, Avalon, Ashby, Onaway, Southington, South Woodland, Drexmore and Woodhill.

Hey JetDog.

 

Question?  On some other transit systems maps, you can click a station and see all relevent information such as:

 

• Station location (address, intersection, etc.)
  
• A Neighborhood street map
  
• Future train arrivals/departures
  
• Biking information (bike rack, locker rental/storage information)
  
• Fare information
  
• Park and Ride lot information
  
• Car Rental or Car sharing information
  
• ADA Information
  

 

Are there any plans for RTA to implement a Interactive map like that?

 

Also, would RTA ever charge for parking or come up with a sponsor for each station parking lot?  That could be a way to pay for maintenence of a station.  Or would people feel like they are paying twice or "over taxed" to park and ride public transportation?

I know that other systems have the pay to park at Park n Ride stations, and I personally like to take pride in the fact that our is free - I think it's a big plus.  Having a sponsor for the station?  I like that - I personally have advocated for & wish that Case would sponsor the Cedar/University Circle one...

^^Those are good suggestions for an interactive map, MTS.  That would be a cool tool.

 

And good question, Cle2032- BRT is RT, after all.  But with so many stops they might not be able to show them all on the same rapid map.

 

Aren't you glad you showed off that new map JeTDoG?!

^Those are good suggestions for an interactive map, MTS.  That would be a cool tool.

 

And good question, Cle2032- BRT is RT, after all.  But with so many stops they might not be able to show them all on the same rapid map.

 

Aren't you glad you showed off that new map JeTDoG?!

Thanks.  Boston and DC have maps interactive maps.  When I've taken public transportation, having those maps online has been a great asset.

 

regarding the new map, I would still like to see bus information on the map and the Health (silver) line.  Putting it on the map now will get folks conditioned to see it, NOW, before it's actually operational.

 

^You could include the Health Line with a "(opening in October, 2008)" note.

Interactive maps? Like these? .......

 

http://www.gotransit.com/publicroot/en/schedule/sysmap.aspx

 

http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/

http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/subway/

 

http://www.metrarail.com/System_map/index.html

 

http://www.dart.org/maps/printrailmap.asp

 

http://www.mta.info/lirr/html/lirrmap.htm

http://www.mta.info/mnr/html/mnrmap.htm

http://www.mta.info/nyct/maps/submap.htm

 

http://www.wmata.com/metrorail/systemmap.cfm

 

http://www.metrolinktrains.com/map/map.php

 

 

Interactive maps? Like these? .......

 

http://www.gotransit.com/publicroot/en/schedule/sysmap.aspx

 

http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/

http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/subway/

 

http://www.metrarail.com/System_map/index.html

 

http://www.dart.org/maps/printrailmap.asp

 

http://www.mta.info/lirr/html/lirrmap.htm

http://www.mta.info/mnr/html/mnrmap.htm

http://www.mta.info/nyct/maps/submap.htm

 

http://www.wmata.com/metrorail/systemmap.cfm

 

http://www.metrolinktrains.com/map/map.php

 

 

Yes.

My friend and I parked at Puritas today and took the train around the city and she commented on how nice it was to not have to drive around the city, deal with traffic, unfamiliar roads, finding parking, etc. Overall, we had a great experience using the trains, no ticket problems. Also, the RTA employees were awesome. Just thought you all would like to know.

Agree w/ some comments about the new map:  P's need to be added at Van Aken stops and I'd put bus routes back in, perhaps discretely.  Bus routes are very helpful unless RTA makes the map interactive (the Boston MBTA maps a beaut; very informational) -- I admit, the bus routes can make the map seem somewhat cluttered -- but I'd still have them in some form...

 

... Also, I'm not wild about the graphics: this map (though obviously not to scale) looks twisted, distorted.  It's simply bad graphic art compared to the usual more balanced ones depicting the east and west side legs -- more like the similar ones on the Shaker and Airport/Windermere platforms in Tower City.

600 people?  If it runs 19 hrs/day w/ 4 trips an hour, that's less than 8 people per ride!  That number should be much bigger!  Who knows though, if/when flights are cut drastically this fall!

 

The low 600 figure surprises me... but not totally.  We're a medium-size, low density city (w/ tons of burb-sprawl) that's lost 1/2 its pop, has a struggling downtown and a 50-year-od Red Line that has almost zilch TOD development around stations + no downtown distributor subway to boot.  We built the Red Line then, more or less, have walked away from it.

 

... and, oh yeah, local pols, bigwigs and the misguided 'major' newspaper are racing to build a parallel "opportunity corridor" freeway that will siphon off even more Red Line riders... hey, makes sense to me.

KJP, MTS, clvlndr, jpop, Straphanger, et al:

 

Thanks very much for the feedback, the examples, the input, and all. I'm actually very glad that something like this stimulated this level of response.

 

I will be reviewing your comments and providing some answers later in the day. I'll also be sharing suggestions and recommendations with the appropriate parties internally to see what motivated certain decisions on our part, and how your suggestions might be able to be accommodated.

 

In a nutshell:

 

interactive maps? yes (and KJP, the examples you've provided were MOST helpful, thanks for doing some legwork on this)

charging for parking? I can only say that in the current state of economic conditions, I don't think anything is off the table (though your comments about possible negative perceptions are also well received)

and just like that, the omission of parking designations on the Green and Blue lines has been fixed... it was in inadvertent oversight caused by the mis-stacking of layers in the source document...

 

our graphic artist is flogging himself in shame as you read this :-)

 

removal of the specifics of connecting bus routes was done for two reasons -- one, the clarity of the map itself, and two, the reduction in labor costs in case changes result in addition or deletion of a connecting route (x minutes to replace a map * x number of maps to replace * x occurrences of substantive changes happening = $$$); with an interactive online map, the labor costs are minimal (bits is cheap), so that is likely the direction you'll see more detail being focused on...

sorry JetDog, but while were at it.  Is it possible to ad "rail" to the maps.  Many of us here have posted that people don't realize we have a "rail" system.

 

For example, on this page:

http://www.riderta.com/maps-schedules.asp

 

you see this text

Schedules

Bus and Rail Schedules

 

RTA System Map

RTA Rapid Transit System Map

RTA Downtown Map

Public Square - Downtown

University Circle

 

Looking at those options, how is anyone to know that we have a rail system? Or by just reading those options, which one it is? If you live here, you might get it, but a visitor would not know our "Rapid" is "rail".  Someone not familiar with RTA or the internet is more likely to give up searching for the rail map.  History proves that the more clicks on a page a user has to make, they are less likely to use the website.

 

Could I suggest adding the word "rail" after the word Rapid? My other suggestion would be to replace "rapid" with the word "rail" but I think that "rapid" is a unique name, like the "t" in Boston.

 

RTA System Map

RTA Rapid Rail Transit System Map

RTA Downtown Map

Public Square - Downtown

University Circle

 

Your thoughts?

If we need to put the word "rail" in, how about "RTA Rail Rapid Transit System Map".  Or "RTA Rapid Transit (rail) System Map." Either one can then be updated with "and bus" once the Healthline comes on line.  JeT, forgive the absurd micro managing.

sorry JetDog, but while were at it.  Is it possible to ad "rail" to the maps.  Many of us here have posted that people don't realize we have a "rail" system.

 

For example, on this page:

http://www.riderta.com/maps-schedules.asp

 

you see this text

Schedules

Bus and Rail Schedules

 

RTA System Map

RTA Rapid Transit System Map

RTA Downtown Map

Public Square - Downtown

University Circle

 

Looking at those options, how is anyone to know that we have a rail system? Or by just reading those options, which one it is? If you live here, you might get it, but a visitor would not know our "Rapid" is "rail".  Someone not familiar with RTA or the internet is more likely to give up searching for the rail map.  History proves that the more clicks on a page a user has to make, they are less likely to use the website.

 

Could I suggest adding the word "rail" after the word Rapid? My other suggestion would be to replace "rapid" with the word "rail" but I think that "rapid" is a unique name, like the "t" in Boston.

 

RTA System Map

RTA Rapid Rail Transit System Map

RTA Downtown Map

Public Square - Downtown

University Circle

 

Your thoughts?

 

A reasonable suggestion, but the direction I might actually prefer is to keep consistent with what's already there (Rail/Rapid Transit Schedules), and use the term "Rail/Rapid Transit System Map".

 

Also, to address an earlier question, the HealthLine will ultimately be present on the rail/rapid transit map (since it is, as we've stressed, BRT), though most likely not with all of its platforms represented due to space limitations.

If we need to put the word "rail" in, how about "RTA Rail Rapid Transit System Map".  Or "RTA Rapid Transit (rail) System Map." Either one can then be updated with "and bus" once the Healthline comes on line.  JeT, forgive the absurd micro managing.

 

absurb micro-managing/consensus building, to-may-to/to-mah-to... let's NOT call the whole thing off, I appreciate the educated banter...

sorry JetDog, but while were at it. Is it possible to ad "rail" to the maps. Many of us here have posted that people don't realize we have a "rail" system.

 

For example, on this page:

http://www.riderta.com/maps-schedules.asp

 

you see this text

Schedules

Bus and Rail Schedules

 

RTA System Map

RTA Rapid Transit System Map

RTA Downtown Map

Public Square - Downtown

University Circle

 

Looking at those options, how is anyone to know that we have a rail system? Or by just reading those options, which one it is? If you live here, you might get it, but a visitor would not know our "Rapid" is "rail". Someone not familiar with RTA or the internet is more likely to give up searching for the rail map. History proves that the more clicks on a page a user has to make, they are less likely to use the website.

 

Could I suggest adding the word "rail" after the word Rapid? My other suggestion would be to replace "rapid" with the word "rail" but I think that "rapid" is a unique name, like the "t" in Boston.

 

RTA System Map

RTA Rapid Rail Transit System Map

RTA Downtown Map

Public Square - Downtown

University Circle

 

Your thoughts?

 

A reasonable suggestion, but the direction I might actually prefer is to keep consistent with what's already there (Rail/Rapid Transit Schedules), and use the term "Rail/Rapid Transit System Map".

 

Also, to address an earlier question, the HealthLine will ultimately be present on the rail/rapid transit map (since it is, as we've stressed, BRT), though most likely not with all of its platforms represented due to space limitations.

 

To me, rail/rapid transit means that there are 2 different things.  The rail system and something called rapid transit, which, from an earlier example I made, doesn't mean anything to someone from OOT and might be interpreted as some kind of specialty transit service like Super Shuttle.  Parentheses means "same thing."  Slash means either/or.  JMO.

Where can I see this new Rapid map?

To me, rail/rapid transit means that there are 2 different things.  The rail system and something called rapid transit, which, from an earlier example I made, doesn't mean anything to someone from OOT and might be interpreted as some kind of specialty transit service like Super Shuttle.  Parentheses means "same thing."  Slash means either/or.  JMO.

 

I think that's exactly what they're trying to say.

 

When the Health Line comes online, it won't really be rail. But it's not really regular bus service, either. I think it would be right to include it in the rail map, however.

Where can I see this new Rapid map?

 

http://www.riderta.com/pdf/maps/System_Map_Rapid.pdf

 

link is on the Timetables, Maps & Schedules page of riderta.com

Jerry (or anyone else who knows or who finds an earlier post answering this): how will the new ticket vending machines to be installed in anticipation of POP work?  Will they dispense change?  Take credit cards?

 

Just want to make sure this question did not get lost in the earlier back and forth about maps, etc.

How will the new ticket vending machines to be installed in anticipation of POP work?  Will they dispense change?  Take credit cards?

 

Probably not/not sure and No, at least not at first. The machines have the software to implement smartcards, but that is in a later phase of the project...first things first.

^Thanks, Jerry.  I think I got it.  I guess calling them vending machines is a bit of a misnomer- they are more like the fare collection equipment that's on vehicles. Will there be change machines at some or all stations or will it be just like riding the bus now (passengers must bring exact change with them to the bus stop), except that the transaction is completed on the platform instead of on the vehicle?  I assume the new in-station machines will accept 5-trip cards?

 

Sorry for all the detailed questions!

^Thanks, Jerry. I think I got it. I guess calling them vending machines is a bit of a misnomer- they are more like the fare collection equipment that's on vehicles. Will there be change machines at some or all stations or will it be just like riding the bus now (passengers must bring exact change with them to the bus stop), except that the transaction is completed on the platform instead of on the vehicle?   I assume the new in-station machines will accept 5-trip cards?

 

I think the lingo is TVM for ticket vending machine and CSK for Customer Service Kiosk (more fare media options, but not located at every station). I will get back to you with the other answers.

^Thanks Jerry.

 

And congratulations to you and JeTDoG- I just noticed that rapid stops and bus stops are now on google.maps!

That new computer voice on the Rapid is something else. 

 

"Vel....COME tooooo the.... You're riding the RED LI........NE....Next stop West...ONESEVETEEN Madison, connection to 50, 75 and THREEOFOUR....Vel....COME tooooo the RRRRRTTTTT-A....You're riding the RED LI........NE."