i'm aware of all that as well and its doesn't negate that his ohio casino profits will help fund a detroit rail project. the guy's not 'that' rich. all the more reason the casino deal wasn't wise, the casinos should've been solely all ohio projects, warts and all, but thats another story.

 

 

Sorry, but I'm going to have to completely disagree :)

 

Dan Gilbert is in fact 'THAT' rich.  He is the 365th richest man in the United States and the 1,062nd richest human on planet earth with a net worth of over 1.1 BILLION dollars (with zero of that coming from a future casino).  If you look at the funding breakdown above you will see that of the $125 million dollar project, $30 million is private donations and station sponsorships.  The other $95 million came from various other sources.  The text also states that there were four primary financial and organizational backers.  Gilbert is one of those four.  So if we pretend that there is not a single dollar coming in from station sponsorship.  And that these 4 men were the only private people backing the project (unlikely, I don't see any way they didn't solicit other major business that would benefit from the line)... then each of these guys would be on the hook for $7.5 million.  Dan Gilbert could lose a $7.5 million dollar check and not even notice it.  Forget about the casino, the detroit rail line is happening because a handful of major players in the private sector community wanted to make it happen and knew they couldn't count on a cash strapped city government to pull it off so they took it into their hands.  That's called corporate citizen leadership... something we completely and totally lack in our city.

 

Personally I hope Dan Gilbert makes another billion dollars on his casino because I know he will invest in this city too.

Are you two done?  Now can we get back to the WFL extension?  :police: :P :P :P ;D

But I think it's worth discussing the financial wherewithal of potential funders of a downtown rail loop, and to learn from other cities' experiences.

But I think it's worth discussing the financial wherewithal of potential funders of a downtown rail loop, and to learn from other cities' experiences.

 

What is the current FTA match for new rail construction?  It's nice that Detroit has put together a coalition of biz folks to finance a 3.5 mile rail line, but I would find it difficult to see it happening here for the WFL loop given the heritage of squabbling here.  Hey, maybe Big Dan could finance it himself since his casino would be one of the largest private stakeholders on the line.

Some transit projects are getting up to 50 percent of their costs funded by the feds.

 

i'm aware of all that as well and its doesn't negate that his ohio casino profits will help fund a detroit rail project. the guy's not 'that' rich. all the more reason the casino deal wasn't wise, the casinos should've been solely all ohio projects, warts and all, but thats another story.

 

 

Sorry, but I'm going to have to completely disagree :)

 

Dan Gilbert is in fact 'THAT' rich. He is the 365th richest man in the United States and the 1,062nd richest human on planet earth with a net worth of over 1.1 BILLION dollars (with zero of that coming from a future casino). If you look at the funding breakdown above you will see that of the $125 million dollar project, $30 million is private donations and station sponsorships. The other $95 million came from various other sources. The text also states that there were four primary financial and organizational backers. Gilbert is one of those four. So if we pretend that there is not a single dollar coming in from station sponsorship. And that these 4 men were the only private people backing the project (unlikely, I don't see any way they didn't solicit other major business that would benefit from the line)... then each of these guys would be on the hook for $7.5 million. Dan Gilbert could lose a $7.5 million dollar check and not even notice it. Forget about the casino, the detroit rail line is happening because a handful of major players in the private sector community wanted to make it happen and knew they couldn't count on a cash strapped city government to pull it off so they took it into their hands. That's called corporate citizen leadership... something we completely and totally lack in our city.

 

Personally I hope Dan Gilbert makes another billion dollars on his casino because I know he will invest in this city too.

 

we definately disagree because personally i hope a local makes billions over a carpetbagger like gilbert who, if he isnt already, after the casinos are up and running will be extracting more money to detroit than he is investing in cleveland.

 

and sorry but describing gilbert's growing net worth and breaking down the detroit coalition still doesnt change the fact that his ohio casino profits, among his other disposable income, i.e, from the cavs and of course his businesses etc, are or will be funding his pet detroit transit project and whatever else non-ohio thing he sees fit to spend his $ on. its not about how much, even a penny is distasteful when it all could have been kept instate with a better casino plan. so i just think its a shame that with the casino deal more ohio money will be going out of state, toward some other state's transit project and whatever else. that sucks.

 

otherwise, yes sure the detroit coalition that is putting that project together is interesting and something to learn from. i wish ohio's wealthy civic leaders like the gunds, lerners, les wexner, etc would get involved in ohio transit projects too. maybe detroit will inspire them and as the 3C ball gets rolling they will? also interesting is the sidebar that gilbert's worth has now topped the $1B mark in wealth, because when he bought the cavs his wealth was reportedly less than half that. eh, good for him. and detroit.

 

 

 

 

 

i'm aware of all that as well and its doesn't negate that his ohio casino profits will help fund a detroit rail project. the guy's not 'that' rich. all the more reason the casino deal wasn't wise, the casinos should've been solely all ohio projects, warts and all, but thats another story.

 

 

Sorry, but I'm going to have to completely disagree :)

 

Dan Gilbert is in fact 'THAT' rich.  He is the 365th richest man in the United States and the 1,062nd richest human on planet earth with a net worth of over 1.1 BILLION dollars (with zero of that coming from a future casino).  If you look at the funding breakdown above you will see that of the $125 million dollar project, $30 million is private donations and station sponsorships.  The other $95 million came from various other sources.  The text also states that there were four primary financial and organizational backers.  Gilbert is one of those four.  So if we pretend that there is not a single dollar coming in from station sponsorship.  And that these 4 men were the only private people backing the project (unlikely, I don't see any way they didn't solicit other major business that would benefit from the line)... then each of these guys would be on the hook for $7.5 million.  Dan Gilbert could lose a $7.5 million dollar check and not even notice it.  Forget about the casino, the detroit rail line is happening because a handful of major players in the private sector community wanted to make it happen and knew they couldn't count on a cash strapped city government to pull it off so they took it into their hands.  That's called corporate citizen leadership... something we completely and totally lack in our city.

 

Personally I hope Dan Gilbert makes another billion dollars on his casino because I know he will invest in this city too.

 

we definately disagree because personally i hope a local makes billions over a carpetbagger like gilbert who, if he isnt already, after the casinos are up and running will be extracting more money to detroit than he is investing in cleveland.

 

and sorry but describing gilbert's growing net worth and breaking down the detroit coalition still doesnt change the fact that his ohio casino profits, among his other disposable income, i.e, from the cavs and of course his businesses etc, are or will be funding his pet detroit transit project and whatever else non-ohio thing he sees fit to spend his $ on. its not about how much, even a penny is distasteful when it all could have been kept instate with a better casino plan. so i just think its a shame that with the casino deal more ohio money will be going out of state, toward some other state's transit project and whatever else. that sucks.

 

otherwise, yes sure the detroit coalition that is putting that project together is interesting and something to learn from. i wish ohio's wealthy civic leaders like the gunds, lerners, les wexner, etc would get involved in ohio transit projects too. maybe detroit will inspire them and as the 3C ball gets rolling they will? also interesting is the sidebar that gilbert's worth has now topped the $1B mark in wealth, because when he bought the cavs his wealth was reportedly less than half that. eh, good for him. and detroit.

 

How can you say that with 100% certainty?  come on.

 

Not just the wealthy, but everyday folks and community leaders.

 

 

Ah hell, build both options!  :-D BTW, on a semi-related front, would it be possible to use the old 1930 interurban tracks 5 & 6 on the digram, bore thru to Superior and tunnel to the Detroit-Sperior bridge and run a light rail line to the west side?

Ah hell, build both options!  ;D BTW, on a semi-related front, would it be possible to use the old 1930 interurban tracks 5 & 6 on the digram, bore thru to Superior and tunnel to the Detroit-Sperior bridge and run a light rail line to the west side?

 

IIRC, those tracks are the shaker rapid tracks, which can't be extended.  I asked the same question earlier in the thread.

That's not what you asked, if I recall. Because those tracks certainly can be extended over the Detroit-Superior bridge but that's for another topic.

That's not what you asked, if I recall. Because those tracks certainly can be extended over the Detroit-Superior bridge but that's for another topic.

 

I asked if the shaker rapid tracks could be connected to go to the WFL or be connected to go over the DS bridge (i can't remember).  You said they couldn't be extended. 

 

Are tracks 5/6 the shaker rapid tracks or a hidden set of tracks?

 

I thought all tracks were ripped up with the exception of the Cleveland rapid and Shaker rapid tracks.

Sorry I misunderstood you. The old Shaker Tracks, 5 & 6, actually had a loop just west of their station platform (like the one that existied at Shaker Square, Warrensville and Shaker/Green Road). There was a track (probably track 6) that continued west of the loop and out the west side of the station. But it is a westbound-only track, which is what you asked about earlier. The reason it is a westbound-only track is because it switches onto one of the Waterfront Line westbound/northbound track and I don't believe there is a crossover track to the Red Line west of where the Shaker station track switches onto the Waterfront Line track. If there is, then an eastbound train can use this track but it means crossing over other tracks at-grade with trains traveling in the westbound direction. Not ideal at all. And that's assuming there is a crossover that allows this without back-up moves being possible.

 

But if you wanted to route trains over the Detroit-Superior bridge, eastbound and westbound trains would stay north of the Waterfront Line and Red Line tracks and avoid having to make crossovers against the flow of traffic. That's the difference.

 

And the length and complexity of this answer is the real reason why I didn't want to answer it earlier.  :-P

 

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program.....

"the fact that his ohio casino profits, among his other disposable income, i.e, from the cavs and of course his businesses etc, are or will be funding his pet detroit transit project and whatever else non-ohio thing he sees fit to spend his $ on."

 

Most investments of this type are not consistent cash flow generators and don't generate any income.  The owner's usually make thier profits in sale of the asset resulting in capital gain at the much lower tax rate.  This is particulary true with respoect to sports teams. 

Streetcar projects eligible for new USDOT grants

Progressiverailroading.com

 

Yesterday, the U.S. Department of Transportation (USDOT) announced $280 million is available in federal grants for urban circulator projects, such as streetcar and bus systems.

 

The money represents the first batch of funding provided by the Obama Administration through the Livability Initiative, a joint venture comprising USDOT, the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development, and U.S. Environmental Protection Agency. 

 

Full story at:

 

http://www.progressiverailroading.com/news/article.asp?id=22081

Nice, but does RTA even have an iron in the fire (viz any WFL extension)?

Instead of extending the waterfront line which could have several large obstacles, how about we build a streetcar downtown loop. It could look something like that.

 

 

1. The convention center stop could serve the new convention center, medical mart, and malls.

2. The west 6th street stop could help the businesses on that street as well as possibly help fill in those lots.

3. The tower city stop would serve tower city, the casino, hotels, offices, as well as connecting to other RTA lines and public square.

4. The prospect/east 4th station would serve east 4th, gateway, as well as possibly help revitalize the buildings and storefronts along prospect.

5. The Hanna theater stop could help energize that corner as well as serve the hanna theater goers.

6. The Playhouse square/CSU would serve both CSU students as well as the rest of the theaters and businesses in that area.

7. The reserve square stop could help possibly fill in those lots and serve area residents and the hotel.

8. The Perk Park stop would serve the new park as well as area businesses.

9. The East 9th street stop would serve the business on the street as well as provide access to the library and surrounding businesses. It could also make the street more attractive to new businesses.

 

I actually like that idea better than extending the waterfront line as a downtown loop. I feel like extending the loop would cost too much for such little benefit (it's really not that far of a walk from N. Coast to CSU). If it is to be extended I would like it to be extended east or west, not south.

Instead of extending the waterfront line which could have several large obstacles, how about we build a streetcar downtown loop.

Because if the streetcar shares a right of way with traffic it won't be any faster than the "trolleys". So why not just use the "trolleys" since they'd be a lot cheaper? Other than Perk Park and the Reserve Square, every one of the sites you marked on your loop is on either the B or E loop already. I'm no fan of the "trolleys", and would prefer something railed, but you're going to have to give me a more compelling reason to like your streetcar route than that it doesn't use tires.

 

Also, a streetcar would have to have some way of getting off the street and onto tracks to get to a maintenance facility, which basically requires that your streetcar get connected to either Tower City, or the WFL. By the time you add that, you're basically making a downtown tracked loop, which is essentially what the WFL is (or is supposed to be). So why not just finish the WFL instead?

 

A Waterfront loop that has it's own right of way, or primarily uses low traffic roads (like E 17th as KJP suggested in some thread around here) wouldn't get stuck in traffic and could move you around downtown in a more efficient manner. Also it would allow you stay in your seat if you're coming from the Shaker lines.

 

Now personally I think the Waterfront line makes more sense being extended to the east than as a loop, but if you want to make a railed loop around downtown, I don't see how you can beat the WFL.

I feel like a downtown loop makes more sense than an eastward extension, because I don't really see light right as compatible with the environment heading eastward - wouldn't it hug a 4-lane interstate highway for much of the way?  The best prospect for development would be way out east if you blew up Euclid Mall.  I've stated before, if you can turn that WFL extension south somewhere and for all intents and purposes (re)create a St. Clair streetcar, that could work

.  Though the counter-argument to that is, what purpose would that serve that the #1 doesn't already?

 

In regards to the loop above - I prefer routing further eastward for the reasons Keith stated, as well as the fact that I'd like to see a downtown loop be used as a catalyst for redevelopment.  Put it in places where it won't have to compete as hard with road traffic and it will be both quicker and spur growth.  Competing with E. 9th street traffic is not a likely proposition.

Due to nay-sayers, rail of any kind needs to be reasonably successful very quickly.  Therefore, I feel any new rail downtown would need to connect already established residential and business districts.  This will help "sell" rail, thus allowing expansion to less developed areas in order to spur development.  Americans, and probably Ohioans more-so, need nearly instant success in order to gain support.

 

While in a sense you are right, the naysayers will also hang a giant "DO NOT DISTURB" sign on existing conditions.  Look at the negative response to construction on Euclid Avenue, which had nowhere near the impact on local that constructing a WFL extension on the above route would.  And, as stated, most of those areas are already served by a free "trolley."

It also should connect Tower City, CSU and Tri-C

south on E9th, east on superior, south on E17th, west on prospect to huron, to TC.

I feel like a downtown loop makes more sense than an eastward extension, because I don't really see light right as compatible with the environment heading eastward - wouldn't it hug a 4-lane interstate highway for much of the way?  The best prospect for development would be way out east if you blew up Euclid Mall.  I've stated before, if you can turn that WFL extension south somewhere and for all intents and purposes (re)create a St. Clair streetcar, that could work

.  Though the counter-argument to that is, what purpose would that serve that the #1 doesn't already?

 

If the waterfront line is to be extended, let's do it on the waterfront.  For one thing there's already tracks to use, which go past Waterloo and downtown Willoughby, then into Painesville.  This would be a commuter line rather than a St. Clair streetcar.  Running next to I-90 is a good thing, because the whole idea here would be to provide that commuting corridor with another option.  Not a lot of potential for TOD in the immediate sense, but even as a "park & ride" it would still be a new selling point for a relatively dense 30-mile stretch of the region.   

I feel like a downtown loop makes more sense than an eastward extension, because I don't really see light right as compatible with the environment heading eastward - wouldn't it hug a 4-lane interstate highway for much of the way?  The best prospect for development would be way out east if you blew up Euclid Mall.  I've stated before, if you can turn that WFL extension south somewhere and for all intents and purposes (re)create a St. Clair streetcar, that could work

.  Though the counter-argument to that is, what purpose would that serve that the #1 doesn't already?

 

If the waterfront line is to be extended, let's do it on the waterfront.  For one thing there's already tracks to use, which go past Waterloo and downtown Willoughby, then into Painesville.  This would be a commuter line rather than a St. Clair streetcar.  Running next to I-90 is a good thing, because the whole idea here would be to provide that commuting corridor with another option.  Not a lot of potential for TOD in the immediate sense, but even as a "park & ride" it would still be a new selling point for a relatively dense 30-mile stretch of the region.   

 

Light Rail is not commuter rail.  Extending it anywhere past Univ. Circle/Glenville would be ridiculous!

Well, we wouldn't want to be ridiculous.  Perhaps you misunderstood.  I'm not talking about sending the blue line cars themselves to Painesville.  But commuter rail could connect with the blue line at the current E 9th station, or eventually NCTC.  That seems like the most cost effective method of extending the waterfront line.  It might even raise the profile of rail transit in the region to the point that we could complete the downtown loop.

look at Cleveland from google/bing maps without labels. Then look at the corridor between Cleveland and Painesville... its immensely built! I feel like a commuter train coming in from the east is a fantastic idea with a final stop at the NCTC. Then completion of a loop is a higher probability since commuters wouldnt want to walk to, say, the warehouse district or euclid ave from there and I bet most would prefer to stay on a train and just switch lines rather than wait for a bus.

Well, we wouldn't want to be ridiculous.  Perhaps you misunderstood.  I'm not talking about sending the blue line cars themselves to Painesville.  But commuter rail could connect with the blue line at the current E 9th station, or eventually NCTC.  That seems like the most cost effective method of extending the waterfront line.  It might even raise the profile of rail transit in the region to the point that we could complete the downtown loop.

 

No dear I completely understand.  A light rail route from downtown to Painesville would be idiotic and painful.  That is clear a route for commuter rail.  A few stops in Lake County;  Painesville, Mentor, Wickliffe, Willoughby and then Euclid (to tie into the highway and give a park and ride option), then maybe one stop before downtown, such as MLK/Gordon Park.  That is a route that would lure folks from outer counties.

Well, we wouldn't want to be ridiculous. Perhaps you misunderstood. I'm not talking about sending the blue line cars themselves to Painesville. But commuter rail could connect with the blue line at the current E 9th station, or eventually NCTC. That seems like the most cost effective method of extending the waterfront line. It might even raise the profile of rail transit in the region to the point that we could complete the downtown loop.

 

No dear I completely understand. A light rail route from downtown to Painesville would be idiotic and painful. That is clear a route for commuter rail. A few stops in Lake County; Painesville, Mentor, Wickliffe, Willoughby and then Euclid (to tie into the highway and give a park and ride option), then maybe one stop before downtown, such as MLK/Gordon Park. That is a route that would lure folks from outer counties.

It would make a lot more sense in my opinion for that commuter line to take the tracks parallel to the red line and go through University circle and then connect onto the other end of the West Shore Commuter Line at Tower City. But that's a topic for another thread.

 

I'd rather see the WFL run out on St Clair to Shaw ave in Glenville and then take Shaw to Euclid Ave and then end up at the Stokes/Windermere station.

I'd rather see the WFL run out on St Clair to Shaw ave in Glenville and then take Shaw to Euclid Ave and then end up at the Stokes/Windermere station.

 

I'd like to see a St. Clair line too, but not to Windermere.  We already offer tons of service to Windermere and none along the waterfront.  Why not end it in Collinwood, where there's neighborhood growth taking place and rail service is badly needed?  Before we say that's too far for light rail, consider that the Green Line already goes as far east as Green Road.  Follow Green Rd north to the lake and you're at E222nd.  Green hits Euclid Ave between E152nd and E185th, so light rail to Collinwood doesn't seem like a stretch at all. 

 

Light rail is certainly not limited to 6-7 miles, and it makes no sense that an area within Cleveland city limits would only be reachable via commuter rail.  We need to prioritize getting rail service to the Waterloo Arts District, which is a Tremont-in-waiting, and which needs a better lifeline than the #1 can provide. 

 

To clarify, we're talking about three different things now, all of which are technically extensions for the WFL:  1)  downtown loop, 2) commuter rail to Painesville, 3) light rail along St. Clair.  I'm sticking by my earlier point that commuter rail along the waterfront to Painesville would hook up the most people for the least money.  As such, it could help us get the other two ideas approved.

I'd rather see the WFL run out on St Clair to Shaw ave in Glenville and then take Shaw to Euclid Ave and then end up at the Stokes/Windermere station.

 

I'd like to see a St. Clair line too, but not to Windermere.  We already offer tons of service to Windermere and none along the waterfront.  Why not end it in Collinwood, where there's neighborhood growth taking place and rail service is badly needed?  Before we say that's too far for light rail, consider that the Green Line already goes as far east as Green Road.  Follow Green Rd north to the lake and you're at E222nd.  Green hits Euclid Ave between E152nd and E185th, so light rail to Collinwood doesn't seem like a stretch at all. 

 

Light rail is certainly not limited to 6-7 miles, and it makes no sense that an area within Cleveland city limits would only be reachable via commuter rail.  We need to prioritize getting rail service to the Waterloo Arts District, which is a Tremont-in-waiting, and which needs a better lifeline than the #1 can provide. 

 

Collinwood/Euclid is not to far for light rail or subway.  It's in cuyahoga county.    A line under st. clair would be awesome.

 

Personally, I'd rather see the waterfront line run into Bratenahl and build a line under st. clair from flats/east bank station east.

 

But that is my wishful thinking.

Depends on how the light-rail line is designed. There are some that extend 20 to 30 miles out from the urban center. St. Louis' extends out very far because the light-rail right of way is designed more like a heavy-rail rapid transit service....

 

I'd love to see the WFL go through Collinwood, but how do you get there? If you run on St Clair to 152nd then up to collinwood, it's going to take an hour to get there.

If you run on St Clair to 152nd then up to collinwood, it's going to take an hour to get there.

 

It might, but it wouldn't have to.  I don't think we should build anything based on signal-timing unless the city agrees to actually do it.  But they claim the BRT could do its run in 20-25 minutes, with proper timing, and it has twice as many stops as it needs.  So if we get the lights right and cut down the stops, it seems possible to hit Collinwood in 30-45 minutes with a streetcar.  Those are big ifs though.  Are there any comparable routes in other cities that could give us an estimate?

 

Another possibility might be running it along the route it's already on, perhaps with new track.  No St. Clair TOD, but not much different from the current rapid service and probably cheaper to set up, even with new track.  And that would be faster for sure.   

This seems ridiculous to even speculate over - what is the reality of this even happening?

We have this same conversation every year, but no complaints from me!  My view:

 

Extending the WFL as light rail along the lakefront right of way, the cheapest option, would be a colossal waste of transit funds, because the first 3.5 miles has very low population density and the next two miles offers only a single loaded corridor of decent density.  That's a lot of expensive infrastructure just to reach a so so ridership base.  Couldn't we say the same thing about the Green, Blue and east side Red Line today?  Yes, and ridership is pretty pathetic on all of them.  Extending the WFL along St. Clair would be a lot better for ridership, but even that is going to be a tough sell given the decline of the neighborhoods it would serve and poor track record of transit as an economic development driver in our region's residential neighborhoods.

 

If we build commuter rail to the northeast burbs, like Keith, I think the best route by far would be the tracks extending past Windermere if it can be figured out (the West Shore discussion might offer some clues) because it would provide service to both of the city's biggest employment centers and better transfer options.  If we really wanted to build expensive infrastructure, simply extending the Red Line (if possible) to Euclid or beyond would probably serve a lot more people then extending the WFL along the lakefront.

The downtown loop had advanced pretty far into the federal planning stages under former GM Ron Tober, but when Joe Calabrese came in he canceled all major transit project planning efforts except for Euclid Corridor was too far along to stop. The downtown loop was showing some promising ridership and economic development numbers that probably would have earned for it federal construction funding.

 

And GCRTA has been kicking around options for extending either the HealthLine or the Red Line east to at least Euclid. But they decided to put that on hold and instead advance planning for extending the Blue Line to North Randall.

And GCRTA has been kicking around options for extending either the HealthLine or the Red Line east to at least Euclid.

Is the right of way beyond E 185th even wide enough for the Red line to be extended all the way to Euclid?

 

If we really wanted to build expensive infrastructure, simply extending the Red Line (if possible) to Euclid or beyond would probably serve a lot more people then extending the WFL along the lakefront.

Well if we're just dreaming, I would extend the WFL east as a streetcar on the South Marginal,

build a bridge over the water intake at the power plant,

squeeze between Gordon park and I-90,

then squeeze between the RR tracks and the Shoreway for a couple miles,

cross 90 near E 140th and then take Waterloo Rd to E 185

 

That way you're not sharing a ROW for much of the route (and a lightly used ROW for another good chunk of it) plus it wouldn't stop much so it could make a reasonable speed and connect Collinwood and the west side of Euclid to downtown. Plus it would mean the 39 and 39F could be cut back and just take riders to the WFL.

 

Here's a map I threw together.

Is the right of way beyond E 185th even wide enough for the Red line to be extended all the way to Euclid?

 

 

For the most part, yes.

Well if we're just dreaming, I would extend the WFL east as a streetcar on the South Marginal,

build a bridge over the water intake at the power plant,

squeeze between Gordon park and I-90,

then squeeze between the RR tracks and the Shoreway for a couple miles,

cross 90 near E 140th and then take Waterloo Rd to E 185

 

That way you're not sharing a ROW for much of the route (and a lightly used ROW for another good chunk of it) plus it wouldn't stop much so it could make a reasonable speed and connect Collinwood and the west side of Euclid to downtown. Plus it would mean the 39 and 39F could be cut back and just take riders to the WFL.

 

Here's a map I threw together.

 

Yeah...but if you extend the Red Line via the CSX ROW to Collinwood and beyond or via the NS ROW you provide most of these riders with one seat access to University Circle and the West Side too...though with admittedly slower service to downtown.

 

 

Posted by KJP here: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2768.msg499336.html#new

 

EDIT: Looks like Keith already weighed in on this proposal at http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,2768.msg499336.html#new.  Sorry to dredge it up again!  You raised good points then.

The NS ROW would offer better options for stations and integration into residential areas, I would think.  The CSX ROW is just so wide and disconnected.

 

I would still prefer a loop over an extension any day.

I would still prefer a loop over an extension any day.

I would be in favor of a loop only if it makes more sense than doing nothing. If we build a streetcar loop and it spends so much time sitting at lights that it's no faster than the "trolleys", I don't see a point in wasting millions on it. There would have to be a committment by the city to actually give it priority at lights, rather than what they've done to the Healthline. Without priority at lights, a loop would be a waste of time. Who's going to take a train around downtown when you can walk just as fast (assuming you're willing to jay walk now and then)?

Well.... I should have qualified my statement that it makes sense only with more lakefront development.  But then we get into the chicken-and-egg debate because I would argue that a loop would be a big incentive for waterfront development.  I also liked the idea (I think KJP proposed awhile back) re closing E 17th to traffic (or maybe building on top of it?) and dedicating that street to the eastern north-south portion of any loop.  While downtown is fairly walkable to anybody who actually walks, I would say that connecting PS, the Flats, the Waterfront, and PHS would be fairly helpful.  I don't know too many people that would walk from PHS to the river (especially for our non-summer months).

Well.... I should have qualified my statement that it makes sense only with more lakefront development. But then we get into the chicken-and-egg debate because I would argue that a loop would be a big incentive for waterfront development. I also liked the idea (I think KJP proposed awhile back) re closing E 17th to traffic (or maybe building on top of it?) and dedicating that street to the eastern north-south portion of any loop. While downtown is fairly walkable to anybody who actually walks, I would say that connecting PS, the Flats, the Waterfront, and PHS would be fairly helpful. I don't know too many people that would walk from PHS to the river (especially for our non-summer months).

 

I agree with this. I would rather see connectivity of downtown resources/districts than trying to spread it out to the east side. I think it's more beneficial for Cleveland to concentrate it's economic and neighborhood development to downtown at this point. I could see a loop work something like what they have in in Portland or Sacramento very nicely. The redevelopment of east side lakefront would likely be after a revitalized downtown lakefront anyway, as economic pressures would dictate such. 

You mean this? From page 2 of this thread....

 

Yes, exactly. I think a transit line like this loop would be a great asset to downtown. I'm sure it would increase ridership on the underused waterfront line and help spur residential development around it.

 

On the other hand I don't think extending the waterfront line east would accomplish much at this point in time. In fantasy land we could make all of the land to the east between St. Clair and the Shoreway into a packed residential district to be served by such a rail line. In reality nobody is going to be knocking down the door to move into the St. Clair-Superior neighborhood any time soon, and they won't be until more desirable areas (i.e. downtown) are developed first. I don't buy such a rail line spurring development there either since it takes more than rail to make a desirable neighborhood.

 

At this point in time I think better transit access to the east side could best be accomplished by extending the Red line instead.

Yes, exactly. I think a transit line like this loop would be a great asset to downtown. I'm sure it would increase ridership on the underused waterfront line and help spur residential development around it.

 

On the other hand I don't think extending the waterfront line east would accomplish much at this point in time. In fantasy land we could make all of the land to the east between St. Clair and the Shoreway into a packed residential district to be served by such a rail line. In reality nobody is going to be knocking down the door to move into the St. Clair-Superior neighborhood any time soon, and they won't be until more desirable areas (i.e. downtown) are developed first. I don't buy such a rail line spurring development there either since it takes more than rail to make a desirable neighborhood.

 

At this point in time I think better transit access to the east side could best be accomplished by extending the Red line instead.

 

Then I dont think you understand TOD.

^Really MTS?  Are you saying if you plop down some rail lines in ANY neighborhood it will automatically spur development?  Where's all the development by the E79th stations?  There are obviously several things that make TOD work... only one of them is the physical "transit".

Very true, Hoot. There has to be more things attracting development than repelling it, including linkages to growth centers. That's a big problem in Cleveland, where growth centers are located in isolated pockets. It's a big reason why there is development occuring along the HealthLine, because it better serves the growth center of University Circle, and a relatively stable, large commercial district located in downtown that has the potential for growth. Plus its linkage between the health care and biotech clusters in/near University Circle with the medical mart downtown is another thematic factor developers are recognizing.

 

If the northeast side of downtown is to become something, then it needs to tap into these things or create its own thematic economic development initiative. Perhaps redeveloping the area with housing that's linked by transit to the rest of downtown, airport and University Circle is sufficient to attract some investment like the Avenue District. But I think the area needs a 24-hour vibe, such as with the long-dreamt Tech Center on Rockwell or the expansion of the Artists Quarter westward and link it with the District of Design just south of there.

 

Perhaps those are things that could be united with the presence of a downtown loop. But it has to be supported with land use planning, redevelopment incentives, and vision -- something that the first part of the Waterfront Line was not.

^Really MTS?  Are you saying if you plop down some rail lines in ANY neighborhood it will automatically spur development?  Where's all the development by the E79th stations?  There are obviously several things that make TOD work... only one of them is the physical "transit".

 

Yes really and to compare the East 79 street stations - that when built, were surrounded by working class homes - is comparing apples to oranges.

 

The red line when built when thru a functioning neighborhood, with businesses and residences along the line.

 

Hypothetically speaking building a line up St. Clair or Superior to say 55 Street TODAY, would work today as it's already an intact neighborhood, with destinations, but very little housing that will attract young people or young families. at 6, 12, 21, 30, 40 and 55 would be an excellent TOD stations to build upon in a neighborhood that is growing with commercial business and has a stable residential base.