December 3, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: Not yet. Working on it. BTW, the toughest part of routing a Downtown Loop on East 13th and Euclid would be having light-rail vehicles make the turn between those two streets. If properly articulated, an LRV can make that turn. If GCRTA acquires a fleet of LRVs that can't make that turn, then either the Cowell & Hubbard building would have to be demolished or another routing would have to be used. EDIT: It actually works better for this routing if the Cowell & Hubbard building is demolished. Not only does it provide a more gentle track curvature -- one that already exists on the Waterfront Line. But it also provides a station platform that can allow trains up to three cars long (~250 feet) to fit on the platform. The lengthened HealthLine station platform maxes out at 230 feet, meaning that a 3-car train would hang out over the edge of the platform and block traffic. Considering RTA almost never runs three-car trains, that's not a frequent problem. But it's not a station design that RTA would want to choose. And, by putting this station at the NE corner of East 13th and Euclid, you could get federal New Starts grant money or federal transit-oriented development loan/credits/guarantees to build the foundation or lower levels of a combined rail station and skyscraper. That's a great graphic. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like there is a lot of space for a turn onto Euclid between 9th and 18th. If you built a station within the Cowell&Hubbard footprint and a tower above, that would be great. Seems unlikely. But hey -- this is why we need RTA to do the study!
December 4, 20204 yr 1 hour ago, Pugu said: For all you people who want the WFL to be a loop---how would it operate? For example, would it be: one service clockwise in the loop with another service counter clockwise in the loop with the shaker trains running from shaker to somewhere along the loop and then turn back to shaker? where would that station be? Or would all Shaker Trains use the loop, say clockwise, while another train operated exclusively counterclockwise in only the loop? The original proposal was that one Shaker Line would do the big loop clockwise and the other line would do it counterclockwise. These could potentially be supplemented with dedicated loop trains going each direction. That said, as @KJP has documented, new Heavy Rail cars will not fit in RTA’s expensive maintenance station in its current format. Rather than a massive investment in that facility, it probably makes more sense to convert the Red Line from Heavy Rail to Light Rail, which would enable one set of cars to run on all existing rail lines. This greatly increases the flexibility of what could be done for a downtown loop. With that in mind, I think including a Huron subway / streetcar should be part of the alternatives analysis. By running a line from Ontario/Huron along Huron, through or under the E9th / Prospect / Huron intersection, and into Playhouse Square, it opens all kinds of options. The Red Line could run on this Huron line, then along Euclid through PHS, through CSU, south of 22nd past the STJ Transit center for bus connections, then through St Vincent’s hospital and Tri C before reconnecting with the existing Red Line at the current Tri C station. This makes the Red Line WAY more useful and dramatically increases ridership, but doesn’t add nearly as much run time as going around the whole loop through the Flats on the Waterfront Line. Separately, The loop line could either take this “inner loop” or the wider loop as the old study documented. With this in mind, I think the proposal should have a T rail intersection at Euclid / E13th / Huron, even if it is simply reserved for a future phase. Edited December 4, 20204 yr by Boomerang_Brian wrong hospital When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
December 4, 20204 yr I updated my Cleveland Rail Transit Proposal google map with the new East 13th routing proposal. This includes the Huron streetcar / subway proposal. I will keep tweaking it so that my St. Clair and Detroit streetcar pipe dream proposals can be more easily turned on and off separately from the Huron route. This map also has the Commuter Rail proposal - you just have to separately turn on that Layer. Check it out: https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jwJYTqDuRjTaOhrx5g9gMR63xEMr783u&usp=sharing When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
December 4, 20204 yr I tweaked the Google map to separate the Waterfront / Downtown Loop from the Huron Subway / Streetcar Line. The St Clair and Detroit Streetcar proposals are also on a separate layer, turned off by default. I'd like to see this as at least one of the Alternate routings to be studied. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jwJYTqDuRjTaOhrx5g9gMR63xEMr783u&usp=sharing When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
December 4, 20204 yr Author 5 hours ago, Pugu said: For all you people who want the WFL to be a loop---how would it operate? For example, would it be: one service clockwise in the loop with another service counter clockwise in the loop with the shaker trains running from shaker to somewhere along the loop and then turn back to shaker? where would that station be? Or would all Shaker Trains use the loop, say clockwise, while another train operated exclusively counterclockwise in only the loop? I don't have much to add to what BB said, except that I'd like to see a fare-free, loop-only train service operate both clockwise and counter-clockwise around the loop on 12- to 13-minute headways. It would take a train about 25 minutes to make one complete loop. And yes, I'd love to see the loop-only trains run 24 hours a day. Their headways could probably drop to 25 minutes between midnight and 6 a.m. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
December 7, 20204 yr My preferred route would be down East 17th. Cutting through the parking lots to Carnegie. Past Progressive Field, crossing Ontario and cutting down the side of the hill back into Tower City. Links all the major attractions; Playhouse Square, Progressive Field/RM Fieldhouse, Rock Hall, Browns Stadium, Flats East Bank, Tower City, Settlers Park/Towpath head, Cleveland State, etc. Edited December 7, 20204 yr by marty15
December 7, 20204 yr 5 hours ago, marty15 said: My preferred route would be down East 17th. Cutting through the parking lots to Carnegie. Past Progressive Field, crossing Ontario and cutting down the side of the hill back into Tower City. Links all the major attractions; Playhouse Square, Progressive Field/RM Fieldhouse, Rock Hall, Browns Stadium, Flats East Bank, Tower City, Settlers Park/Towpath head, Cleveland State, etc. This route proposal misses nearly all of the significant ridership generators that should be connected by a downtown loop rail. I love Playhouse Square, but I don’t think it would drive as much ridership as the areas this route misses: the CBD along East 9th, St Vincent’s hospital, Tri C, and a good chunk of CSU’s campus. And if there is a south side of downtown connection that is still north of the Innerbelt, the route along Huron would be much more useful and would generate more ridership. Keep in mind that everything you are proposing to connect would also be connected by the route that @KJP spelled out above. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
December 7, 20204 yr On 12/3/2020 at 9:32 PM, Boomerang_Brian said: I tweaked the Google map to separate the Waterfront / Downtown Loop from the Huron Subway / Streetcar Line. The St Clair and Detroit Streetcar proposals are also on a separate layer, turned off by default. I'd like to see this as at least one of the Alternate routings to be studied. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1jwJYTqDuRjTaOhrx5g9gMR63xEMr783u&usp=sharing This is really great, well done! Do you think you could add a Redline subway option/layer that splits off at W.25th and goes down to Ridge, then takes Ridge past ParmaTown to Pleasant Valley and ends at Tri-C West? Edited December 7, 20204 yr by NR
December 7, 20204 yr 26 minutes ago, NR said: This is really great, well done! Do you think you could add a Redline subway option/layer that splits off at W.25th and goes down to Ridge, then takes Ridge past ParmaTown to Pleasant Valley and ends at Tri-C West? I had previously made a more extensive version and it includes a West 25th streetcar to Parmatown, along with several other proposals. See post below to get to the Google map link. Any other rail route becomes much more valuable if there is a downtown loop. Additional downtown stations are the most important addition to the rail network. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
December 30, 20204 yr Author WEDNESDAY, DECEMBER 30, 2020 Campus District asks RTA for Downtown Loop study In a recent letter, a downtown Cleveland community development corporation (CDC) urged the Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority (GCRTA) to revisit its 2000 Waterfront Line Phase II study that found extending the light-rail line as a Downtown Loop to be feasible. The letter, sent Dec. 21 by the Campus District to GCRTA General Manager and CEO India Birdsong, followed a Dec. 11 vote by the CDC's board of trustees to make the request of the transit authority. The CDC joined with the statewide nonprofit organization All Aboard Ohio in asking for a reevaluation of the proposed Downtown Loop as a 2.5-mile extension of the 2.2-mile Waterfront Line. MORE: https://neo-trans.blogspot.com/2020/12/campus-district-asks-rta-for-downtown.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 1, 20214 yr Author "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 1, 20214 yr 9 hours ago, KJP said: They did a great job with that story! When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
January 8, 20214 yr With AAO and Campus District recently asking RTA to formally study a downtown loop, I thought it would be interesting to have a Google Map for possible routes. This is a variation of what I have previously shared here, but this one is strictly the downtown loop options, with each variation on its own layer so they can be turned on and off for comparisons. Check it out and let me know if you have other (viable) options that would be worth including. https://www.google.com/maps/d/edit?mid=1XxnbS1vOcoKUOnn4YXZO7bnbEvzgAn8B&usp=sharing Here's @KJP's original proposal, which was also the 1999 study recommendation: Here's the more recent E.13th routing, which would much better serve the CBD: Another option would be to extend the Waterfront line to a new bridge at E18th that could be combined with auto traffic, thus opening other sources of funding. I would have this option turn west at St. Clair to go over to and turn south on E13th to PHS, thus connecting the CBD. I like how this option opens the possibility of developing the Muni Lots as well as redevelopment in the northeast part of downtown (Lakeside / St. Clair from E17 out to E22nd or so), but still has good connectivity to the CBD. I think if a study is being done, a substantially different option for an "inner loop" should be studied - specifically, Terminal Tower clockwise up W6th, east along St. Clair to E13th, south to Playhouse Square, then west along Huron back to Tower City. (Similar to the 1950s subway proposal, except using St. Clair instead of Superior.) This provide MUCH better service to ALL of the CBD. I would also include the Playhouse Sq to CSU to St. Vincent to Tri C route in this plan, with Blue and Green Lines traveling this route. Even though this doesn't extend the Waterfront Line, it does make it much more useful as you could have a one seat trip from the FEB to PHS / CSU / Tri-C. I would also want to see the study investigate an optional extension across the Detroit Superior Bridge with stations at each end, thus better connecting all that Detroit / W. 25th development activity, Irishtown Bend, and the West Bank of the Flats back to downtown. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
January 8, 20214 yr What like about Boomerang_Brian's routes is they all support some future use for the old Juvenile Hall complex, which is too good not to be saved. Remember: It's the Year of the Snake
January 8, 20214 yr 4 hours ago, Dougal said: What like about Boomerang_Brian's routes is they all support some future use for the old Juvenile Hall complex, which is too good not to be saved. Today I learned about the old Juvenile Hall complex. Thanks! 😀 When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
January 8, 20214 yr Author You also might be interested in this..... https://campusdistrict.org/east-22nd-st-bridge-innerbelt-exit "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
February 4, 20214 yr I finally joined the Twitterverse. I’m pushing the downtown Cleveland rail loop proposals by suggesting possible routes (similar to my previous posts here). Fling some arrows at my ideas. I’m not sure if that embedding is working right. (Update - looks like it did) https://twitter.com/thinkerbrian/status/1357147000358264834?s=21 Edited February 4, 20214 yr by Boomerang_Brian Yes the link works, hooray When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
February 28, 20214 yr On 1/8/2021 at 1:42 PM, Dougal said: What like about Boomerang_Brian's routes is they all support some future use for the old Juvenile Hall complex, which is too good not to be saved. that was the very first thing i thought of. i could see a really cool neighborhood built up around there in time. the area has a great i dk how to say it but off to itself vibe. while a loop takes some consideration i always thought ideally detroit-superior rail is a no brainer. its such a nice straight shot. i am surprized rta doesnt have some kind of shovel ready expansion project ready to go with biden being such a big railfan and seemingly ready to spend big on it.
February 28, 20214 yr 7 hours ago, mrnyc said: while a loop takes some consideration i always thought ideally detroit-superior rail is a no brainer. its such a nice straight shot. i am surprized rta doesnt have some kind of shovel ready expansion project ready to go with biden being such a big railfan and seemingly ready to spend big on it. Detroit Streetcar would be good. @KJP had developers on board with independently run version. When RTA’s Calabrese found out about it, he killed it. (Thank goodness he’s gone.) On the Superior side, with the Midway project bike lanes still on the table (although apparently on the back burner), I think I’d have the street car line jog north at W 6th and then go east on St. Clair. This would be better positioned for encouraging high rise residential at the top of the bluff in the northeast part of downtown. As far as shovel ready projects, RTA’s Blue Extension isn’t THAT old - I think around 2008? But really, no extension would have anywhere near the impact of better coverage downtown. I’d be happy with ANY form of that - downtown loop, Huron subway, St Clair streetcar, etc. Let’s get the whole CBD, CSU, and Tri-C properly connected to the already existing rail system. With that in place, extensions would start to make more sense fiscally. And i agree, the Biden administration means NOW is the time. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
June 24, 20213 yr Author Unfortunately, he's not interested in the Downtown Loop. Says there's too many other things to work on with downtown. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
June 24, 20213 yr 31 minutes ago, KJP said: Unfortunately, he's not interested in the Downtown Loop. Says there's too many other things to work on with downtown. Obviously, once SW builds there won't be enough parking.
June 24, 20213 yr 34 minutes ago, KJP said: Unfortunately, he's not interested in the Downtown Loop. Says there's too many other things to work on with downtown. Even though it’s just about the most visionary and strategic development that could be made downtown. I wonder what are all the more important things to him given that he wants DCA to be “a more visionary, strategic, and focused business development… organization” My hovercraft is full of eels
February 19, 20241 yr RTA Waterfront Line's Browns Sunday Resurgence Kicks Up Questions About Next Phase Mark Oprea - Scene - Feb. 19, 2024 "As the RTA waits to offer the public a date for the Waterfront Line's true reopening—that is, specifics beyond "spring/summer"—questions abound regarding the service's potential in the next five, ten years. Especially as a fleet of development projects and rising downtown population beckon new thoughts on what the Waterfront Line could be. 'The RTA board really needs to think long-term out into the future,' Stu Nicholson, the previous director of All Aboard Ohio, told Scene. 'We need some assurance that something is coming. The next logical step is to revive earlier plans, if you will. Make the line more than it already is.'"
February 19, 20241 yr I do think the Water Front Line will be discussed more in the coming years. There are two major factors that could help bring a lot more interest into the WFL and its future: 1. RTA Fleet Unification 2. Shore to Core TIF
February 19, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, NorthShore647 said: I do think the Water Front Line will be discussed more in the coming years. There are two major factors that could help bring a lot more interest into the WFL and its future: ... I agree. While I am a huge proponent of a downtown loop, that does not necessarily mean it has to be the Waterfront line. The current Waterfront line is fine for the flats, Browns stadium, the museums on the lakefront, and maybe the closest buildings to the E.9th station. The tracks and the bluff still separate the Waterfront Line from the northern downtown offices. Maybe the Waterfront line should just be extended to Euclid, as others have proposed. But we still need a rail connection that puts all of the downtown core within a 5-10minute walk from a rail station. Ideally, that could mean a downtown subway line from Tower City, under W9th to Lakeside, down Lakeside to E13th, down E13th to Huron, and down Huron back to Tower City. Just five or six stops on the loop and all of the CBD is within a 10-minute walk. It doesn't quite get you to the east side of CSU and misses Tri-C, and it's going to be damn expensive -- but it would be a wonderful asset that would give the rail network access to a lot more of downtown than it currently does.
March 8, 20241 yr Author We want to hear from you! My Planning Studio Capstone Course is conducting a study on the Waterfront Rail Line in Downtown Cleveland. Our client is the City of Cleveland Planning Commission. Our goal is to develop recommendations for potential future development along the Waterfront Line that will increase ridership and integrate seamlessly with Cleveland's waterfront redevelopment efforts. It's been an absolute pleasure working alongside my cohort, professors, and the City of Cleveland. Cleveland has so much to offer, and being a part of the waterfront's redevelopment process is incredibly exciting. We look forward to your input. Thank you! "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 8, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: We want to hear from you! My Planning Studio Capstone Course is conducting a study on the Waterfront Rail Line in Downtown Cleveland. Our client is the City of Cleveland Planning Commission. Our goal is to develop recommendations for potential future development along the Waterfront Line that will increase ridership and integrate seamlessly with Cleveland's waterfront redevelopment efforts. It's been an absolute pleasure working alongside my cohort, professors, and the City of Cleveland. Cleveland has so much to offer, and being a part of the waterfront's redevelopment process is incredibly exciting. We look forward to your input. Thank you! The survey only asks about potential land-use enhancements around the existing line, not about potential extensions or service frequencies.
March 8, 20241 yr Author 50 minutes ago, Foraker said: The survey only asks about potential land-use enhancements around the existing line, not about potential extensions or service frequencies. Yup. But this is the closest thread that applies. Unless we discuss it in the TOD thread. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
March 8, 20241 yr 1 hour ago, KJP said: We want to hear from you! My Planning Studio Capstone Course is conducting a study on the Waterfront Rail Line in Downtown Cleveland. Our client is the City of Cleveland Planning Commission. Our goal is to develop recommendations for potential future development along the Waterfront Line that will increase ridership and integrate seamlessly with Cleveland's waterfront redevelopment efforts. It's been an absolute pleasure working alongside my cohort, professors, and the City of Cleveland. Cleveland has so much to offer, and being a part of the waterfront's redevelopment process is incredibly exciting. We look forward to your input. Thank you! Here's a link if the QR code is difficult to access without a camera. https://urbancsu.co1.qualtrics.com/jfe/form/SV_0GuHKE15gNhkUYu?Q_CHL=qr This map from the survey is interesting. It makes me wonder if it would be worth it to add a basic (i.e. cheap) pedestrian bridge at the current terminus. It should put the rest of the 9-12 district into the ten minute walk range, and even some of the St. Claire neighborhood.
Create an account or sign in to comment