Masterful KJP, masterful.  Can we hire you to run RTA?

Naa...just make him COO.

KJP curious, did you do this just to do it, or were you asked to do it by someone?

 

Anyway, well done.  I really believe and have said for some time, until we have a downtown loop our rail system isn't very viable.  You also forgot item (D) when considering that $71 million from the casino... depending on what/where you read or who you listen to there is a project budget shortfall of anywhere upwards of $50 million on the horizon that will chew up a portion of that just to maintain current service levels. (sorry to play the downer)

 

Also I'm curious, how would you forsee the rapid getting from the muni lot on to 17th?  Because if I am not mistaken it's about 50 feet below street level North of the street grid, and E.17th really doesn't start for about a block in... so would this also go "subway" and then "pop up" on E.17th?  Lastly, do you envision running like a street car on 17th?  Might be one of the only normal sized streets in downtown (i kid... kind of), and don't see the room for any other way... so I guess would it just make sense to keep the whole loop east of tower city subway?

I did this on my own, but I gave a copy of some of my early stuff to the mayor's staff and they were very excited about it. So I'm continuing to compile more information and put some more concepts on paper (at least digitally!).

 

I had heard the city was facing a shortfall but I hadn't heard how much. $50 million is pretty bad! But the city is also going to get $20 million for the convention center. So are we talking a $50 million shortfall after the city gets the $20 million?

 

I propose removing vehicle traffic from East 17th and turning it into a transit, pedestrian and bikeway corridor, with the city services building at the north end of East 17th demolished. The rail line would turn west just before reaching the Shoreway and ramp to the level of the existing Waterfront Line. Separately but related, East 18th would be extended to the Shoreway and becoming the next major north-south thoroughfare between East 9th and East 30th. And given the city's financial situation, perhaps limiting the subway portion to west of East 9th would be advisable.

interesting stuff...

 

i've heard the deficit could be as HIGH as $50m.  I don't know what was included in that number.  Like I said though, I've read / heard other projections that have it in the $15m range.  I guess we'll find out pretty soon.

Great analysis KJP.  Hopefully the sale of the existing convention center will be able to offset any shortage the city faces next year. 

 

This is brilliant KJP.

Is there a real possibility of this happening in, say, the next 10 years?

 

I never knew all of that infrastructure was built in the 1920s/30s. Amazing!

 

This is brilliant KJP.

Is there a real possibility of this happening in, say, the next 10 years?

 

I never knew all of that infrastructure was built in the 1920s/30s. Amazing!

 

Thanks, but please don't ask me to predict the future. I suck at it.

 

This is brilliant KJP.

Is there a real possibility of this happening in, say, the next 10 years?

 

I never knew all of that infrastructure was built in the 1920s/30s. Amazing!

 

Thanks, but please don't ask me to predict the future. I suck at it.

 

So did Ms. Cleo, but that didn't stop her!  Call me now!!!!

Nice job, KJP; appreciate your incorporating an analyzing a loop per my suggested longer subway.  There must be a project manager job for you at Parsons Brinckerhoff -- hey, maybe you could manage this project... 

 

If recall from my pre-Tower City, segregated station left-hand running (TC - E. 55) Shaker Rapid riding days, there was also an upper-level turnout track connection on the westbound Shaker track (the northern most track into the “mouth” of the station-area trackage) which, of course, today, though still extant and apparently signaled, is weed-covered and non-revenue.  If so, even with all those TC pillars, Huron Road subway access to the current station possible though it  would require a brief though awkward, wrong-way intersection/track share section (the overpass track that flies over the current westbound dip) mixing eastbound trains (out of TC) with Westbound (into TC) trains for the Blue/Green center stub track....a situation that could be doable since stub traffic would probably be greatly reduced -- maybe a few trains in rush hour only -- once thru loop routing started. 

 

Although on a much smaller scale than the Cincy construction outlay, I do believe that Cleveland, like Cincinnati, will someday capitalize on its major unused subway connection... Huron portal or my preferred one further East on Prospect (or beyond), I could learn to love this project either way... 

 

Very interesting.

 

Last week after our brief couple of comments on the WFL I was thinking about ways a loop could be completed too. In fact I spent my lunch hour Friday walking several potential routes and was intending to eventually post my ideas here, though probably not as organized as KJP did. My preferred routing, however, was slightly different.

 

IMO, while E 17th is closer to CSU, it’s a little too far from the Avenue district and all the businesses on E 9th to be practical. While there are employers and residents along E 17th north of Chester, there doesn’t seem to be a significant concentration East of E 17th. (Sure there’s the Plain Dealer, and some very nice art galleries, but IMO that doesn’t count as a significant concentration.) So if you moved just a little west to E 13th, you’d still be within easy walking distance of those employers and residents on E 17th, but you’d also be within a block or two of the Avenue district, and within a reasonable walking distance of the multitude of employers on E 9th. So I thought that E 13th made more sense to me.

 

Since I was looking at E 13th my idea was to just stay on Huron till it crossed 9th, then turn left onto E 13th at Euclid, then stay on E 13th all the way up to Lakeside. Obviously this is skipping College Town, but since it’s only a short walk up the road, I think that’s a small loss.

 

(I have to admit Clvlndr’s idea of extending the subway to just beyond E 9th hadn’t crossed my mind, or at least that I hadn’t given it significant thought, but it makes total sense for this route too as that intersection is confusing enough for pedestrians as it is, and I’d hate to make it worse by adding pedestrians headed for a streetcar, and the streetcars themselves.)

 

The most significant engineering barrier IMO to ANY plan to complete the loop though is how to get between Lakeside and the WFL tracks down by the Muni lot. Interestingly though, this is where I think E 13th may have an advantage. At the intersection of E 13th and Lakeside, E 13th dead ends into the entrances to the parking lots for WKYC and the Cuyahoga Board of Mental Retardation. (At least that’s what Google says the building next to WKYC is.) Between the two building though, is a short strip of lawn next to the CBMR and a particularly wide entrance ramp to WKYC’s basement.  Here's a pic from bing maps.

 

The reason I like this is if that entrance ramp and a portion of that almost worthlessly puny strip of grass could be acquired, E 13th could extend downhill on that slope to the level of WKYC’s basement garage a streetcar would then be only 30 or so feet above the tracks. If a bridge were built from that point over the tracks, then a ramp descended down to the level of the current WFL tracks there would be plenty of room to make the slope gentle enough for a streetcar to safely ascend or descend the ramp. (Of course this would require eliminating/moving/replacing the current Muni Lot station.)

 

Sorry I’m too lazy to draw a map, but if you’re familiar with the area I hope this is clear enough that you get my point.

 

First of all, amazing KJP.  No other way to describe it.  That would "complete" so many aspects of carfree navigation and is perfect for the size of Cleveland. Can we call it the "KJP Loop/Line?"

 

 

Also, I'd bet construction would spring up at the bend of E.17 if this were to go in:

 

 

 

Good points Grumpy.

 

With CSU transforming itself to a more traditional residential campus I still would prefer the E17th route.  I would hope that having light rail/streetcars on E17th would spur development in the same way that streetcars have spurred development in other cities, like Portland, OR.  Perhaps KJP can comment on the connection costs and difficulties of the Lakeside/13th vs. Lakeside/E17th.

 

The other thing I'd like everyone to consider in our transportation wishes for the future is a rail connection to Tri-C.  Maybe the Waterfront line loop isn't he best way (the Innerbelt might be a near-impossible barrier), but with all the money the public puts into it and with the advantages that a highly-educated population would bring to the whole region, I believe that it is imperative that we make transportation access to the Tri-C campus (campuses?) easy, frequent, and as convenient as possible.  Small change to the Red-line when the Opportunity Corridor is designed?  Other thoughts?

 

The reasons why I've long supported East 17th over East 13th or East 9th is because of:

 

++ ease of connection with the Waterfront Line north of East 17th;

++ access to CSU, Wolstein Center and Playhouse Square as part of plan to link up downtown assets;

++ promoting office, medical, housing and associated development on the southeast and northeast corners of downtown;

++ rail expansion opportunities, such as rail lines northeast toward Euclid, and southeast toward Tri-C and the existing Rapid lines.

++ ease of connection with the Waterfront Line north of East 17th;

I don't understand how it would be easier to connect to the WFL north of E 17th. Can you explain?

I don't understand how it would be easier to connect to the WFL north of E 17th. Can you explain?

 

Yes, the ramp that descends to WKYC's parking garage beneath its building would need to be relocated, assuming that can be done. Having been in their garage numerous times (my sister worked there for seven years), the best possible option might be to move the parking garage ramp and opening to the east side of the building. But I don't know what load-bearing structures are on that side of the building. The old WKYC ramp would need to be filled in and the LRT squeezed in between WKYC and the city's Public Utilities Building.

 

The next step would be for the LRT to rise up slightly over the two tracks of Norfolk Southern's Cleveland Line below Davenport Bluffs. NS freight tracks need a 25-foot overhead clearance. NS track charts show these tracks are approximately 15-20 feet higher than the Waterfront Line at this location. So the Waterfront Line would need to rise about 40-45 feet to clear trains using the Cleveland Line. The best way to do this may be to rip out 1,000 feet of the existing Waterfront Line east of East 9th Street and replace it with a ramp supported by more expensive retaining walls instead of a sloped fill which would otherwise block South Marginal Road and CSX's Track 44. This ramp would have a gradient of about 4 percent to 4.5 percent. That's doable, but a lesser gradient is better. So if you have an opportunity for a lesser gradient, it should be considered.

 

A routing via East 17th would allow the Downtown Rail Loop to ramp up to Davenport Bluffs at just 3.33 percent using a portion of the city-owned Muny Parking Lot which some at City Hall want to develop with mixed-income housing. Construction on this could occur while normal operations continue on the Waterfront Line, east to South Harbor. But it could be temporarily shortened to North Coast station at East 9th. The downtown loop would then turn south to head straight into East 17th Street. That would require demolishing the single-level City of Cleveland Administrative Services building on Lakeside. An option would be to snake the rail loop around the east side of the building, but considering this is an unsubstantial, city-owned building, it's replacement shouldn't be much of an issue.

 

While I do think East 13th is a better alignment in terms of serving the East 9th office corridor, it's not much better. I don't see many office workers walking east several blocks to catch loop trains to go back west toward Tower City when they could just walk or catch a bus from East 9th to Tower City. The East 13th routing would nicely serve Reserve Square and the Avenue District, as you point out.

 

But I would rather use the rail line to build an expansion of downtown to the northeast. My personal preference is to have land uses designed around rail transit than have rail transit be designed to fit the land use. If there is an opportunity to do this so close to a major city's downtown, I think you jump all over all that opportunity. Granted, that's a decades-long proposition, but since rail lines can last a couple hundred years, I think a long view toward downtown development would be a healthier view.

 

EDIT: More maps are coming....

I wasn't suggesting eliminating the WKYC ramp, just making it wider into a street. That way it could still be used as an entrance to their garage, and a streetcar/light rail vehicle could go down it. (After some engineering work to reduce the grade of course)

 

I see your point now as far as E 17th being logistically possible, but I still think it's a little too far East and that it wouldn't generate sufficient ridership to justify operating it with significant frequency, and that by not operating it with sufficient frequency, it wouldn't encourage investment along its route. I applaud the concept of "If you build it they will come", but if there's no one there to begin with, the train will end up only running during peak hours and every half hour because ridership wouldn't justify running more frequently. If the train is that infrequent, I would question its ability to generate development. With your E 17th route, there's not going to be significant ridership between Chester and E 9th.

Now that Mayor Poverty has been reelected maybe he could adopt this as his legacy? I do not think he will be elected another term and he currently has nothing to point to.  Medical Mart is a county plan and the casino was really a state initiative.  Combine this with KJP's inner belt plan and he would be the greatest mayor since Tom L. Johnson!

Now that Mayor Poverty has been reelected maybe he could adopt this as his legacy? I do not think he will be elected another term and he currently has nothing to point to.  Medical Mart is a county plan and the casino was really a state initiative.  Combine this with KJP's inner belt plan and he would be the greatest mayor since Tom L. Johnson!

 

"Mayor Poverty"??  Thats really disrespectful, not only to the Mayor but, to those of us who live in Cleveland proper.

Now that Mayor Poverty has been reelected maybe he could adopt this as his legacy? I do not think he will be elected another term and he currently has nothing to point to. Medical Mart is a county plan and the casino was really a state initiative. Combine this with KJP's inner belt plan and he would be the greatest mayor since Tom L. Johnson!

 

"Mayor Poverty"?? Thats really disrespectful, not only to the Mayor but, to those of us who live in Cleveland proper.

Besides that it isn't particularly clever. If you want to disrespect the man with a silly nickname, at least come up with a clever silly nickname.

Now that Mayor Poverty has been reelected maybe he could adopt this as his legacy? I do not think he will be elected another term and he currently has nothing to point to.  Medical Mart is a county plan and the casino was really a state initiative.  Combine this with KJP's inner belt plan and he would be the greatest mayor since Tom L. Johnson!

 

"Mayor Poverty"??  Thats really disrespectful, not only to the Mayor but, to those of us who live in Cleveland proper.

Besides that it isn't particularly clever. If you want to disrespect the man with a silly nickname, at least come up with a clever silly nickname.

 

On top of that, many of us in the city are far from impoverished.

I wasn't suggesting eliminating the WKYC ramp, just making it wider into a street. That way it could still be used as an entrance to their garage, and a streetcar/light rail vehicle could go down it. (After some engineering work to reduce the grade of course)

 

 

OK, think about that a little more....

 

The transit loop tracks need to rise up several feet northward from Lakeside to go over the NS Cleveland line, not descend to its level. The parking garage floor is near to the track level of the NS tracks. And vehicles entering/exiting a parking garage directly onto light-rail tracks with no clear sight lines is something I highly doubt RTA and WKYC will want. Would you want that if you were the management of WKYC, or RTA? RTA has had enough problems with accidents at the more visible grade crossing at the intersection of Old River Road and West 10th Street.

The transit loop tracks need to rise up several feet northward from Lakeside to go over the NS Cleveland line, not descend to its level. The parking garage floor is near to the track level of the NS tracks.

Maybe I'm wrong, but the floor of that garage looks to be a good distance higher than the tracks. See here

While part of the bluff is grassy, it certainly appears just as high at this point as it is at E 17th.

 

 

The bottom of a bridge needs to be 25 feet above the head of the rail of a freight railroad track. I have a side view of the WKYC building from the NS tracks. It looks like 25 feet comes up to about the lower portion of the first floor of the WKYC building.

While part of the bluff is grassy, it certainly appears just as high at this point as it is at E 17th.

 

The ramp is at least 10 feet lower than the grassy bluff though.

Now that Mayor Poverty has been reelected maybe he could adopt this as his legacy? I do not think he will be elected another term and he currently has nothing to point to.  Medical Mart is a county plan and the casino was really a state initiative.  Combine this with KJP's inner belt plan and he would be the greatest mayor since Tom L. Johnson!

 

 

"Mayor Poverty"??  Thats really disrespectful, not only to the Mayor but, to those of us who live in Cleveland proper.

 

This is not the place for that discussion and I would be pleased to have it in the correct place.  To the extent I strayed off topic I withdraw the comment.  However, in defense of those of you who live in the city he has done nothing to bring badly needed light industrial jobs for male, semi-skilled workers into this town; is doing nothing that I can see in his second term to do so, and that is what should offend you. 

 

Staying on topic.  There is no infrastructure project that this mayor can point to as his own.  Most multi-term mayors like to point to something that was conceived/implemented on their watch.  I am wondering if this has the cost/timeline possibilities for this to be something a second term mayor could run with. 

 

^Opportunity corridor's biggest champion

Over $3 billion in construction either completed or at least funded under his watch

Downtown population tripled, with more units on the way

I'll take that over a politician claiming the work of others as his own

 

 

Back on topic, KJP, what is the feasibility of a west side WFL?  Roughly following the path of a reconstructed Shoreway?

^^Ummm... International trade district?

 

Back to topic.

Now that Mayor Poverty has been reelected maybe he could adopt this as his legacy? I do not think he will be elected another term and he currently has nothing to point to.  Medical Mart is a county plan and the casino was really a state initiative.  Combine this with KJP's inner belt plan and he would be the greatest mayor since Tom L. Johnson!

 

 

"Mayor Poverty"??  Thats really disrespectful, not only to the Mayor but, to those of us who live in Cleveland proper.

 

This is not the place for that discussion and I would be pleased to have it in the correct place.  To the extent I strayed off topic I withdraw the comment.  However, in defense of those of you who live in the city he has done nothing to bring badly needed light industrial jobs for male, semi-skilled workers into this town; is doing nothing that I can see in his second term to do so, and that is what should offend you. 

 

Staying on topic.  There is no infrastructure project that this mayor can point to as his own.  Most multi-term mayors like to point to something that was conceived/implemented on their watch.  I am wondering if this has the cost/timeline possibilities for this to be something a second term mayor could run with. 

 

 

http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,6137.new.html#new

^^Ummm... International trade district?

 

Back to topic.

 

^Opportunity Corridore's biggest champion

Over $3 billion in construction either completed or at least funded under his watch

Downtown population tripled, with more units on the way

I'll take that over a politician claiming the work of others as his own

 

 

Back on topic, KJP, what is the feasibility of a west side WFL?  Roughly following the path of a reconstructed Shoreway?

 

Are you two done?!  Back on top you two! 

 

(I've been dying to say that to a Mod!)  he he he he he he  ;)

you cant just say something off topic and fix it by saying 'back on topic'.  It like sayin 'no offense, but your wife is a whore'

 

But lets get back to topic

you cant just say something off topic and fix it by saying 'back on topic'.  It like sayin 'no offense, but your wife is a whore'

 

But lets get back to topic

 

LMAO!!!

i like this e17th/huron/prospect wfl loop alignment as well, but if we're going to spend casino money -- the whole e17th stretch to the lake needs to be subway too. well, at least just past euclid or better yet st. clair. stay below those major cross streets.

 

regardless, i most certainly agree that putting casino $ mostly into one major capital transit project that all can see and all will use is very wise.

Here's the last of the maps......

 

downtown rail loop-euclid-superior1m by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

downtown rail loop-superior-davenport1m by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

 

downtown rail loop-davenport-e9th1m by Ken Prendergast, on Flickr

This is where mrnyc and I have disagreed. Rapid transit crossing busy streets at-grade is no different than a bus crossing busy streets, except the train will enjoy the safety of crossing gates. Of course, such is common on the Brown Line in Chicago which crosses multiple streets at-grade, including this one at Rockwell Station. It's an interesting thing because Chicago's El uses third-rail which don't cross the streets. Meanwhile Cleveland's overhead catenary wires would (with a clearance of 15 feet)....

 

 

Here is the Brown Line at Francisco Street....

It's interesting that Grumpy's 13th Street proposal vs KJP''s 17th rekindles the old question: is rapid transit supposed to extend to and serve population density or create it?  I tend toward Grumpy's 13th street idea because it could do both.  It would be a mistake to brush past the most densely built up part of downtown: E. 9th/Euclid/Playhouse Sq.  And if you go Huron to 13th to the Lake, you also serve gigantic Reserve Sq. and a few other large apts... But there is also a lot of "air" along 13th North of Chester -- lots of place to build...  (note: btw Euclid and Chester, E.13th auto traffic would have to be eliminated on the narrow street if trains ran at grade....)

 

I differ with KJP about developing 17th -- wasn't that what the WFL we have now about?  A well built line that now, 12 years later, is only now seeing some TOD go up as in FEB?  Also I'm kind of surprised KJP mentioning that people would "walk a few blocks" for transit.... Not in this town... We have the North Coast/E. 9th  WFL stop 1.5 blocks from the huge Erieview office population, but none of them, hardly, use the WFL... Maybe they feel they're walking backwards to get to a stop when they're going toward Public Sq. and beyond...

 

Also, in thinking about it more, I think if we go with either E.13 or 17th, we build as much subway as we can through crowded intersections... I tend more to mrnyc and away from KJP: I believe more in true rapid transit (as in grade separated) and less in street-clogging trolleys... Unfortunately (and I'm not finger-pointing at KJP), Cleveland's still got Bert Porter hangover -- 50 years after Porter rudely snatched away the subway loop voters approved, and now we perpetually believe it CAN'T happen here... never mind that we have a huge head start with an off-street subway central rapid terminal with an east-west totally grade separated approach, as well as the nifty Huron subway connection (and nearby Det-Superior Bridge deserted subway deck, (W.25) station and short tunnel... And never mind that similar size cities like Pittsburgh, Seattle, Baltimore, Atlanta and even little Buffalo have successfully  tunneled -- and all reap much bigger passenger per/mile totals than Cleveland, as well...

 

I say, do it right or don't do it at all.

 

nah, a full loop rapid would probably have a high ridership, meaning two to three cars or someday, as in the past of the rapid system even four cars. i mean, why build this at all if we're only talking wfl ridership numbers, right? so it would be longer than a bus.

 

still, even with one car, its going to get popped as soon as someone slams on the brakes in winter and as its crossing the main thoroughfares i doubt drivers will like waiting for it during rush hours or games or other busy times.

 

downtown crossing gates and overhead catenary clutter will also get abused by people, traffic & the elements and just be more high maintenance than keeping it underground. basically, unlike the chicago brown line (which of course is not just street level it does elevate and it does so for a reason), a street level rapid would just be in the way so close in to downtown.

 

i realize this would take the cost over the casino bonanza, but if such a major project as closing the wfl rapid loop were ever to happen i'd wager (!) it would totally be worth the extra expense of just a few more blocks of tunneling or cut and cover.

 

 

Developing maps like that is like my version of stitch or crochet. It's busy work to satisfy my own curiosity. But I am not going to advocate this anymore than what I've posted here -- I've plenty on my plate already. If anyone wants to take this and run with it in whatever form, be my guest. I just have one thing to say: Good luck in making headway with RTA which is cutting transit services or with the city which is likely to be cutting staff in the coming year.

let me be clear. i think building the wfl rapid loop around downtown is an extremely big issue for downtown.

 

while not farsighted or ideal, if the whole thing from e17th/e13th to prospect to the old huron tunnel was a street level trolley i'd still be very happy. it's that important.

 

however, reality is not only the city and rta $ woes, but that there is no way any pot of casino gold will mostly go to one big capital project. sad to say it's much more likely any monetary gain from that will just evaporate.

 

Yep. This is a city that wouldn't put a subway below Euclid Avenue. And I usually try to advance ideas that actually might have a tiny chance of advancing. The emphasis is on the word "tiny."

^KJP, I am sure you would agree, given your knowledge of transportation issues, that the federal government won't let the city put a subway under Euclid either (at least if you want their $$$ to do it).  So I guess we do have to think tiny.

Since the subway projects in Buffalo, Baltimore and Pittsburgh in the 1980s (and Pittsburgh today because there's no practical, physical way to extend their subway to the other side of the Allegheny River without digging a subway), the federal government is staying away from funding subways except in exceptionally high-traffic environments (NYC, LA, DC, etc) or where rail tunnels of some kind already exist (St. Louis).

 

And even if the Federal Transit Administration changed its funding criteria to enable more subway construction projects in medium-sized cities, I would have to think hard about wanting their money. The planning and development lead times for a federally funded transportation project average 10 years, and that's assuming you get the tens of millions for each planning step when you want it. The entire federal planning approach discourages fixed guideway transit, let alone subways.

 

Of course, there's always another way.........

 

May. 22, 2009

Deal with city gives Detroit’s light-rail backers green light

By Bill Shea

 

Backers of a privately-funded $125 million light-rail line on Detroit’s Woodward Avenue have reached an accord with the city’s transportation department to move ahead with their version of the project.

 

The Detroit Department of Transportation’s proposed $371 million “Detroit Transit Options for Growth” included different types of trains and a center-of-street layout for Woodward, putting the two projects initially at loggerheads.

 

Now, the private plan, known as the M1 Rail, is likely to develop its 3.4 mile curb-side system as planned, and have it connect into the DTOG system north of the New Center Area — or whatever public train system that comes to fruition.

 

http://www.crainsdetroit.com/article/20090521/FREE/905219973

 

Please note the backers:

Its financial and organizational backers include Penske Corp. founder Roger Penske Peter, who is chairman of the M1 Rail project; Peter Karmanos Jr., founder of Detroit-based software maker Compuware Corp.; Mike Ilitch, owner of the Detroit Tigers and Detroit Red Wings and co-founder of Little Caesar Enterprises Inc.; and Quicken Loans/Rock Financial founder Dan Gilbert, who’s the project’s co-chairman.

 

Cullen is also president and COO of Gilbert’s Rock Enterprises holding company.

 

++++++++++++++++

 

These are funding and cost projections for the M1 Rail project:

 

Funding

• Private donations/station sponsorships: $30 million

• Downtown Development Authority: $9 million

• Kresge Foundation: $35 million

• Utility/in kind: $4 million

• Vehicle lease/financing: $32 million

• New markets tax credits: $15 million

Total: $125 million

 

Costs

• Engineering: $6 million

• Construction: $65 million

• Vehicles: $32 million

• Contingency: $6 million

• Management/reserves: $12 million

• Net interest during construction: $12 million

Total: $125 million

 

Source: M1 Rail

^Gilbert never left Detroit, or whatever suburb of Detroit he lives in

Correct. My point in sharing the article was that Gilbert is interested enough in light rail transit that he is putting his own time and money into it.

So, would this be a politically smart project for Mayor Prosperity to adopt? Could KJP's simpler (non-subway) plan be completed in four years or will it still take 10 yrs. just to get the project approved?

Yep. This is a city that wouldn't put a subway below Euclid Avenue. And I usually try to advance ideas that actually might have a tiny chance of advancing. The emphasis is on the word "tiny."

 

Actually, I thought the voter-approved loop plan that Porter torpedoed was tunnels under Huron (connecting @ TC similar to what you're proposing), E.13 and Superior... Nevertheless, I understand your point.  I thought Dual-Hub went off the deep end with an overkill Shaker/E.116/MLK spur... By the same token, I don't want us to timid and under-build a line that will have to be "fixed' years down the road (witness Dallas, that was too timid to build subways until, surprise, DART is such an expanding hit, they are NOW going to tunnel underdown because the current street/mall system can't handle the increased capacity.  We're only talking a couple thousand feet and while, yes, it's expensive, the greater expense will be streets clogged with slow-moving streetcars, pedestrians (which we want) and a wall of auto traffic.

 

I would have never believed we'd ever sniff a commuter train like the West Shore line, but now it's moving along towards probable fruition.  Why?  Because your group All Aboard Ohio got folks to buy-into the fact that this so call "gold standard" transit is best suited to handle this growing corridor... The same thought process should be applied to a WFL loop, esp in a downtown where there are a lot of exciting big-ticket projects going in simultaneously... As the saying goes: if there's a will, there's a way.

Since the subway projects in Buffalo, Baltimore and Pittsburgh in the 1980s (and Pittsburgh today because there's no practical, physical way to extend their subway to the other side of the Allegheny River without digging a subway), the federal government is staying away from funding subways except in exceptionally high-traffic environments (NYC, LA, DC, etc) or where rail tunnels of some kind already exist (St. Louis).

 

Bingo!  Er, didn't you just elaborately show us how Huron Rd tunnels already exist to connect into our already-existing (for 80 years!) underground (as in subway) downtown Rapid terminal?  ... not to mention the fact that, angling NW from the Rapid terminal we have an already-existing Detroit-Superior Bridge subway (and extant W. 25 subway station) that brushes past that same Rapid Terminal, should we decide to go in that direction?

 

So don't you think that, unlike the typical build-from-scratch Sunbelt town, the Feds would smile on us for expanding a subway that ties into what we already have?

No, not really. We don't have a subway. We have archaelogical ruins that we can build around quite easily and for less money -- the essence of the federal cost-effectiveness standard. The feds would not fund a subway if there was a cheaper option that did the job almost as well. The non-subway option(s) would need to have some pretty bad performance projections not to be favored by the feds, which favors busways over surface light rail, and surface light rail over damn near any subway.

 

You know we lack the traffic of a sprawling Sun Belt town. To catch the attention of the federal rail funders and be eligible for their rail life preserver, we'd have to be drowning in traffic. To do that, we'd have to build Porter's freeway plan, demolish all our great walking neighborhoods and turn everything into really horrific sprawl (turn Shaker Square into Southgate USA, Coventry into Golden Gate, Lakewood into Strongsville, etc. etc.) before we would be rewarded with federal rail funding. I'm half-joking of course. But you truly have to get worse before you can get better.

 

And don't kid yourself. Getting anything more than a few express buses in the West Shore Corridor is going to be a massive battle, too. But I'm not going to take the lead on advocating that project anymore, although I will offer my opinion on it when asked. But that's for another thread.

 

You can keep wasting keystrokes on me if you want because A. I am comfortable with my opinion and uncomfortable with yours; and B. my opinion doesn't matter doesn't matter anyway. I threw out an idea for fun. That's as far as this goes for me. What matters are the powerbrokers in this town and what they are willing and able to do based on a study that hasn't been done and no one is even considering conducting.

 

But I had fun putting it down on (digital) paper.

But I had fun putting it down on (digital) paper.

 

I, for one, had a great deal of fun reading your "digital" paper. Your ideas are certainly part of the best of futures for our city so please continue the exercise. Thank you for your effort. :clap:

Gilbert just cares and is invested in Detroit... I've heard him talk about transit there.  He'd be doing that regardless of a casino.  He's been working on that project for years.  He and penske have flown all over looking at just about ever rail transit system in the country.  He said that he's convinced Penske doesn't sleep.  In one day they flew from Detroit to like 3 different cities just to look at and hear presentations on transit, as far out as Portland.  After almost a year of studying all different forms of rail they were convinced (and this is just their opinion) that curbside at grade rail brings the biggest return on investment in terms of promoting economic development.  So that is the direction they decided to go.  The business community there didn't believe the city had the resources to get things done, and detroit transit didn't have that much of an interest so that went about it on their own.  He really wants to see Detroit come back.  Thus his moving of his very large company from the burbs and the investment in transit.  This has very little to do with the casino, this has more to do with wishing the corporate leaders in this town gave a sh*t.  Here they are all too happy to sit in the burbs and complain about "leadership" while they display absolutely non of their own... unlike Mr's. Penske and Gilbert.  If you want something to get better don't wait for a cash strapped city government to make it happen.  Whether our leaders are interested in something like this or not is almost irrelevant.  We don't have the resources to make it happen.  The casino money, which I highly doubt will ever aproach $70m probably won't be able to do anything except plug some holes and keep existing services from plumeting.

If you think about it, its a lot like what the Van Swerigens did for thier Shaker Hts development back in the day

(no, I can't spell)