Another pet peeve: people who say things like, "If you don't speak English, get out!"  This country has no official language and was founded by the immigrants of many cultures.  If you can't accept that, then YOU get out.

 

I completely agree with this.  And I have this argument nearly daily now.  Spanish is taking over Milwaukee and I HATE the fact that I can't communicate with half the people in my own city.  Hell, our bus schedules are written in Spanish now.  Nearly all of my relatives are whining and complaining and falling behind as a result.  This country has no official language, everything here has always been driving by a critical mass, and the tide is turning.  Suck it up and get on board.

 

I didnt take ANY foreign language until i got to high school, where i took 3 years of Spanish and walked out knowing pretty much nothing. If anything this will get more schools teaching a second and third language in lower grades now. 

 

What school district were you in?  When did you graduate high school?  I thouhgt most schools taught a second language in elementary school??

 

I went to public school through 3rd grade and then went to cult catholic school and finished 8th grade in 2000. Took zero foreign language there and I don't think the admins even knew there were other languages besides English.

Benedictine was the first time i had any foreign language during 2000-2001 school year.

Why do you care, is the bigger question?

 

Yep I do care.  My mother has an accent and based on where were lived, some people would assumed my mom was "the help".

 

I cannot count the times, people would ask things like, "How long have you been here?", "Where did you come from?", "How do you like Cleveland/America compared to where you came from?" or the killer, "When did you get your citizenship?"  Hello PR's are US citizens.  ::)  I can't tell you how many strange looks we would get at the grocery store if my mother spoke to us in Spanish.  It was like we were aliens, from another planet.

 

A lot of peopler precieve, an "accent" as immigrant.  I completely understand why some people congregate in "ethnic" neighborhoods because it reminds them of home and they can speak their language freely.  I know people that have moved from one country to the city and settle in a neighborhood.  Once they get here, they rarely leave that neighborhood because they cannot communicate.  That is just plain lazy to me.  I know PR's that don't speak english, which is craZy to me!

 

So that is why I say, learn english or return to your mother country, you need to function as a part of society.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/31/us/31elder.html?scp=7&sq=immigrant&st=cse

 

Timely article about elderly immigrants and the isolation that language barriers can cause. 

 

August 31, 2009

Invisible Immigrants, Old and Left With ‘Nobody to Talk To’

By PATRICIA LEIGH BROWN

FREMONT, Calif. — They gather five days a week at a mall called the Hub, sitting on concrete planters and sipping thermoses of chai. These elderly immigrants from India are members of an all-male group called The 100 Years Living Club. They talk about crime in nearby Oakland, the cheapest flights to Delhi and how to deal with recalcitrant daughters-in-law.

Why do you care, is the bigger question?

 

Yep I do care.  My mother has an accent and based on where were lived, some people would assumed my mom was "the help".

 

I cannot count the times, people would ask things like, "How long have you been here?", "Where did you come from?", "How do you like Cleveland/America compared to where you came from?" or the killer, "When did you get your citizenship?"  Hello PR's are US citizens.  ::)  I can't tell you how many strange looks we would get at the grocery store if my mother spoke to us in Spanish.  It was like we were aliens, from another planet.

 

A lot of peopler precieve, an "accent" as immigrant.  I completely understand why some people congregate in "ethnic" neighborhoods because it reminds them of home and they can speak their language freely.  I know people that have moved from one country to the city and settle in a neighborhood.  Once they get here, they rarely leave that neighborhood because they cannot communicate.  That is just plain lazy to me.  I know PR's that don't speak english, which is craZy to me!

 

So that is why I say, learn english or return to your mother country, you need to function as a part of society.

 

Why is it crazy that a lot of PR's don't speak English?  It makes sense that most wouldn't, or at the very least not as their first language.

 

I'd hate to get those questions your mom gets, though.  Especially when you consider that a lot of the people asking them are looking down their noses.

 

 

I went to public school through 3rd grade and then went to cult catholic school and finished 8th grade in 2000. Took zero foreign language there and I don't think the admins even knew there were other languages besides English.

Benedictine was the first time i had any foreign language during 2000-2001 school year.

 

"cult" school  LOL.  You went to Bennie?  Oh...you poor thing. 

 

So you really do have a lot to learn.

I am always amazed by the fact that people love all the ethnic neighborhoods for the foods, culture, festivals, etc. without even stopping to consider how or why these neighborhoods were formed.  They weren't formed so that the rest of us could go there to pick up cannoli or egg rolls when we had a taste for them!

 

All of my grandparents were Italian immigrants.  All of my parents, aunts, and uncles had to speak English at home.  That generation knew that to assimilate into the US they had to speak english.

Why is it crazy that a lot of PR's don't speak English?  It makes sense that most wouldn't, or at the very least not as their first language.

 

I'd hate to get those questions your mom gets, though.  Especially when you consider that a lot of the people asking them are looking down their noses.

 

To me it's crazy, since so many PR travel between the island and the mainland and that English is taught in lower school, bilingual in Junior High and almost all classes are in English in High school.

 

The irony is most of the people attempting to look down on us, didn't live as well a we did.  Luckily my mother is a strong woman and would put them in check - real quick!

I am always amazed by the fact that people love all the ethnic neighborhoods for the foods, culture, festivals, etc. without even stopping to consider how or why these neighborhoods were formed. They weren't formed so that the rest of us could go there to pick up cannoli or egg rolls when we had a taste for them!

 

All of my grandparents were Italian immigrants. All of my parents, aunts, and uncles had to speak English at home. That generation knew that to assimilate into the US they had to speak english.

 

Yeah, my grandparents only spoke Italian when they didn't want us to know what they were saying.....  Although if I would've known Spanish when I was little, I probably could've eavesdropped on their arguments in Italian, lol.

I am always amazed by the fact that people love all the ethnic neighborhoods for the foods, culture, festivals, etc. without even stopping to consider how or why these neighborhoods were formed.  They weren't formed so that the rest of us could go there to pick up cannoli or egg rolls when we had a taste for them!

 

All of my grandparents were Italian immigrants.  All of my parents, aunts, and uncles had to speak English at home.  That generation knew that to assimilate into the US they had to speak English.

 

Yeah, my grandparents only spoke Italian when they didn't want us to know what they were saying.....  Although if I would've known Spanish when I was little, I probably could've eavesdropped on their arguments in Italian, lol.

 

I think parents that speak more than one languages do that.  My mom, her sister and my Grandmother would switch to Portuguese so us kids didn't know what they were saying.  It was so obvious.  If us kids were playing and they switched we would just stop in our tracks and stare at them.

^ Same here.... My Grandfather... and mother  straight from Italy... Fortunately, my father was smart enough to get a lot of recordings of his voice, so to this day, we go back and listen to some of the hilarious things he said!

I am always amazed by the fact that people love all the ethnic neighborhoods for the foods, culture, festivals, etc. without even stopping to consider how or why these neighborhoods were formed. They weren't formed so that the rest of us could go there to pick up cannoli or egg rolls when we had a taste for them!

 

I think most people realize that.  And even if they don't, it doesn't take away from the fact that we can enjoy the food, festivals and other cultural elements today.

All of my grandparents were Italian immigrants.  All of my parents, aunts, and uncles had to speak English at home.  That generation knew that to assimilate into the US they had to speak English.

 

Thats what happen to my mother when she got to Cleveland.  When she and my aunt left PR, they went to Miami and everyone spoke Spanish...so they just floated by.

 

When they got to Cleveland, they moved to Broadway, where lots of PR are, but outside of the neighborhood, most people spoke English so it was a bit of culture shock.  I think a lot of first generation people feel that way.

 

Also, my mother is from the "assimilation" generation.  Where everyone should learn and speak English and you spoke your native tongue at home or your neighborhood.

^My grandmother was like this too.  Her neighborhood was full of immigrants but everyone took pride in becoming "American" and would celebrate all the "American" holidays with more gusto than natives - July 4th, Thanksgiving, etc.  Everyone spoke English at home and the 2nd generation barely knew their parents' native language. 

I would STRONGLY ENCOURAGE all immigrants to at least speak English at a functional level.  However, too many of our core values prohibit any REQUIREMENT (legal or societal) that they do so.

 

 

 

 

I think most people realize that. And even if they don't, it doesn't take away from the fact that we can enjoy the food, festivals and other cultural elements today.

 

Another point lost!!

 

 

I think most people realize that. And even if they don't, it doesn't take away from the fact that we can enjoy the food, festivals and other cultural elements today.

 

Another point lost!!

 

 

Um, no.  I addressed the only point you made by disagreeing with it slightly.  I then made a point a point of my own.  Go back and read all the words. 

I've mentioned this before, but worth another mention.  On the corner of Herman Ave. and W 67th, in an old neighborhood bar, is the "Neighborhood Vets Club".  It's only open on Wed and Sat, and the few remaining vets gather to play cards.

 

They are all first generation Americans, my father's generation.  All of their parents emigrated from a few villages in Southern Italy at the turn of the century.  My grandfather came here in 1906.  While they clustered together for comfort and protection, it seems that they all knew how much better off they were here than at home.  In fact, when my grandmother died, my grandfather took the 3 kids and went back to Italy for a few years.  Luckily he brought my father back in 1930!

 

On the walls are photos of each and every one of the neighborhood boys who went off to fight in WWII.  This entire generation of immigrants sent off their male offspring to fight for this new country.  My father never spoke of this club, and I was shocked when I walked into it a few years ago, and saw these photos of my dad in his service uniform and other general photos.  Unfortunately, there are only a few of them left, and I don't know what will become of the club in a short time.  I think for the most part, the neighborhood survived the war pretty well.  I do know that Councilman Zone's father, the late councilman Mike Zone, was a prisoner of war in Germany.

Re the English/Spanish controversy, how much should we change the existing culture to accomodate newcomers who don't speak English?  Spanish is increasingly inundating American culture. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but in order for citizens to communicate with one another you have to have the mechanism of a common language to do so effectively. Apart from the obvious fact that so many people are here illegally, I don't know if some the anti-Latino sentiment is so much rooted in racism as it is in the feeling that Spanish-speakers are, in a sense "imposing" a different, therefore "secret," form of communication on the rest of the country. Even small-town Painesville--whose main population growth now comes mostly from Mexican immigrants--is not immune from controversy. Just last week a Spanish radio station started broadcasting in town, and some long-time white--as well as black--residents are starting to feel a little alienated. Recently all the old public school buildings (dating back to the 20's and 30's) were torn down and replaced by new ones; and a brouhaha arose over the fact that some of the historic old names were discarded as well (replaced by bland tree names like "Elm," etc). The reason--rumor has it--was that some of the old names (my old school, "Huntington"; and "Lathrop Elementary") were too Anglo-sounding and would offend the increasingly--and probably soon-to-be-majority--Latino student population. How far should we have to change the culture that's existed for decades and longer just because a new group of immigrants might find some aspects of it offensive?

Re the English/Spanish controversy, how much should we change the existing culture to accomodate newcomers who don't speak English?  Spanish is increasingly inundating American culture. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but in order for citizens to communicate with one another you have to have the mechanism of a common language to do so effectively. Apart from the obvious fact that so many people are here illegally, I don't know if some the anti-Latino sentiment is so much rooted in racism as it is in the feeling that Spanish-speakers are, in a sense "imposing" a different, therefore "secret," form of communication on the rest of the country. Even small-town Painesville--whose main population growth now comes mostly from Mexican immigrants--is not immune from controversy. Just last week a Spanish radio station started broadcasting in town, and some long-time white--as well as black--residents are starting to feel a little alienated. Recently all the old public school buildings (dating back to the 20's and 30's) were torn down and replaced by new ones; and a brouhaha arose over the fact that some of the historic old names were discarded as well (replaced by bland tree names like "Elm," etc). The reason--rumor has it--was that some of the old names (my old school, "Huntington"; and "Lathrop Elementary") were too Anglo-sounding and would offend the increasingly--and probably soon-to-be-majority--Latino student population. How far should we have to change the culture that's existed for decades and longer just because a new group of immigrants might find some aspects of it offensive?

 

You're joking?  Are you serious?  Super "politically correct" BS like that pisses me off. 

Well, he said that's the RUMOR, there could be a completely different reason and someone is just pushing that rumor around.

Well, he said that's the RUMOR, there could be a completely different reason and someone is just pushing that rumor around.

 

Yeah, I understand, but this over sensitivity can be too much to me.  I think the schools should stay historical.  There is a reason they were given historical names. 

Well, he said that's the RUMOR, there could be a completely different reason and someone is just pushing that rumor around.

 

Yeah, I understand, but this over sensitivity can be too much to me.  I think the schools should stay historical.  There is a reason they were given historical names. 

 

I totally agree.... If you want to build a new place...and name it for someone, fine.. BUT, you don't go re-labeling all the old institutions that were named after earlier philanthropists. That is a slap in the face to them...especially if they donated the property and money in some capacity.

 

A slight example is in the Wade Park Elementary School, scenario where some want it renamed in honor of Fannie Lewis. With no disrespect to the late Councilwoman,  doing so would be disrespectful to Jeptha Wade. If they build a new school on another property, or a wing......fine.... But to alter names totally is an utter and just plain WRONG disrespect and regard to the original namesake and history in general.

 

Politically correctness should not get to the point where we have society walking over eggshells afraid to speak the mind just for fear it may not suit completely well with someone else's ideas.  You can be so politically correct to the point the truth might get buried because we will never end up being flat out honest with one another. 

Well, he said that's the RUMOR, there could be a completely different reason and someone is just pushing that rumor around.

 

Yeah, I understand, but this over sensitivity can be too much to me.  I think the schools should stay historical.  There is a reason they were given historical names. 

Yeah, the only time I can see changing a name is if a place is named after someone obviously monstrous like "Adolf Hitler Elementary" (and I certainly understand why blacks in the South aren't happy about schools, parks, monuments, etc. that are named after prominent Condeferate officials); but otherwise I feel it's wrong to destroy history. My aforementioned elem. sch. was named after the third governor of Ohio, who's buried in the local cemetery. One might say, "big deal," and it's doubtful that any of his descendants even live in the area anymore, but historic names attached to a city also give it a sense of place going back generations. The fact is that most Americans, even going back to the big waves of immigration a hundred years ago, were not from Anglo-Saxon backgrounds, and they didn't make a big fuss about renaming existing institutions to more accurately reflect their ethnic roots...

I totally agree.... If you want to build a new place...and name it for someone, fine.. BUT, you don't go re-labeling all the old institutions that were named after earlier philanthropists. That is a slap in the face to them...especially if they donated the property and money in some capacity.

 

A slight example is in the Wade Park Elementary School, scenario where some want it renamed in honor of Fannie Lewis. With no disrespect to the late Councilwoman,  doing so would be disrespectful to Jeptha Wade. If they build a new school on another property, or a wing......fine.... But to alter names totally is an utter and just plain WRONG disrespect and regard to the original namesake and history in general.

Politically correctness should not get to the point where we have society walking over eggshells afraid to speak the mind just for fear it may not suit completely well with someone else's ideas.  You can be so politically correct to the point the truth might get buried because we will never end up being flat out honest with one another. 

 

Agreed!!

How far should we have to change the culture that's existed for decades and longer just because a new group of immigrants might find some aspects of it offensive?

 

"How far" is certainly a valid question, but there is no doubt that we do and should change as a society with the continuing influx of immigration over the years/decades/centuries.  The phrase "melting pot" comes to mind.  We can not and should not expect immigrants to come here and lose their native culture while assimilating into ours.  We need to adapt as well.  We have a progressive, not stagnant, society forever evolving with each new ingredient tossed into the pot.  And we are better off for it. 

 

Now, I too do not like super-sensitive political correctness (and the school name changes - if that was really the motivation - falls into that category), but we do need to be sensitive to and reflective of all groups, not just the ones that can trace their roots back to DAR.  If that requires a change to past practices, then so be it. 

 

On the language issue, I don't argue with those who hold firm that immigrants SHOULD learn English.  They certainly should.  I do have a bone to pick with the extremists who would make speaking English a REQUIREMENT for citizenship.  You know... the ones who think the inscription on the bottom of our beautiful Harbor Lady should read:

 

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your English-Speaking, huddled masses yearning to breathe free

Another pet peeve: shaving.  I hate it.  Granted, I have a beard, but shaving my neck and shaping it up...I hate it.

Another pet peeve: shaving.  I hate it.  Granted, I have a beard, but shaving my neck and shaping it up...I hate it.

 

No offense, but I hate it when I see men, especially young guys with a crunchy, scraggly beard.  A well groomed man get a thumbs up every time.

 

I hate hair and shaving but I'll do a beard in winter with turtlenecks and stuff.  Appearance is important.

 

The girls like a nice trimmed shaped beard.

Another pet peeve: shaving. I hate it. Granted, I have a beard, but shaving my neck and shaping it up...I hate it.

 

No offense, but I hate it when I see men, especially young guys with a crunchy, scraggly beard. A well groomed man get a thumbs up every time.

 

I hate hair and shaving but I'll do a beard in winter with turtlenecks and stuff. Appearance is important.

 

The girls like a nice trimmed shaped beard.

 

I hate using a blade and will shave with an electric razor once every third day. Unfortunately the big suits at the place i work at during the week are not a fan of this, but all of the younger guys go with a little bit of scruff. I dont want to the time to shave every single morning before going to work and see nothing wrong with it.

Another pet peeve: shaving.  I hate it.  Granted, I have a beard, but shaving my neck and shaping it up...I hate it.

 

No offense, but I hate it when I see men, especially young guys with a crunchy, scraggly beard.  A well groomed man get a thumbs up every time.

 

I hate hair and shaving but I'll do a beard in winter with turtlenecks and stuff.  Appearance is important.

 

The girls like a nice trimmed shaped beard.

 

I hate using a blade and will shave with an electric razor once every third day. Unfortunately the big suits at the place i work at during the week are not a fan of this, but all of the younger guys go with a little bit of scruff. I dont want to the time to shave every single morning before going to work and see nothing wrong with it.

 

Culturally, if the "big suits" don't like it, you need to assimilate!  There are something things that change over time, but a well dressed/heeled man in corporate office is one that wont.

 

Until the corporate climate changes, you need to "fall in line" but still be an individual.  Trust me you boss will notice and notice that you are setting yourself apart from the other "scruffy" drones.

 

Some of you kids would have a hard time working for moi!

I shaved twice a day for the years I was in the Army because I had 5 o'clock shadow by lunchtime. In the years since, I've rebelled and kept fuzzy face warmer. Call me scruffy if you want to, but the beard isn't going anywhere.

I shaved twice a day for the years I was in the Army because I had 5 o'clock shadow by lunchtime. In the years since, I've rebelled and kept fuzzy face warmer. Call me scruffy if you want to, but the beard isn't going anywhere.

 

I have an employee like that.  When we had a "grow the beard" bet he was like I'll win, I'll have a full beard in 48 hours - It's the Greek in me!

 

In 48 hours he had a full beard.

 

I dont understand how you kids cannot shave.

The girls like a nice trimmed shaped beard.

 

No, they don't.  If I had a dollar for everytime one of my friends complained about her man's facial hair, I'd be rich.  It's SCRATCHY and it HURTS, and I don't just mean for kissing.

TMI!!  TMI!!!

 

But good to know!!  ;)

The girls like a nice trimmed shaped beard.

 

No, they don't. If I had a dollar for everytime one of my friends complained about her man's facial hair, I'd be rich. It's SCRATCHY and it HURTS, and I don't just mean for kissing.

Either that's TMI or my mind is in the gutter.

 

The beard gets soft after it grows out a bit. It's the nicely trimmed beards that are scratchy.

I've been with guys with all kinds of facial hair at all lengths and degrees of neatness. I mean, not ZZ top length of course, but that's gross and would SMELL.  It's only not scratchy if the guy naturally has very soft and fine hair on his head and his beard happens to be the same texture. 

I've been with guys with all kinds of facial hair at all lengths and degrees of neatness. I mean, not ZZ top length of course, but that's gross and would SMELL.  It's only not scratchy if the guy naturally has very soft and fine hair on his head and his beard happens to be the same texture. 

 

Hey...my bad...i thought your gals liked that.  Me personally, I like'em clean shaven.  The less hair the better.

I have a huge beard and it's super manly and super awesome.  As far as appearance in the workplace goes, it's a ridiculous concept.  When you get down to brass tacks, whether or not you're wearing jeans or have your shirt tucked in has absolutely zero bearing on how well you do your job.  People are drones and ultimately stupid, and that makes them easily fooled.  You put an idiot in a decent suit and people will buy what he's selling.  It's a flaw of human nature and you're all sheep for buying into it.

 

Whoa.  That was a rant.

Yes, but I feel better when you bring my food if your appearance is neat.  Hint:  You'll get bigger tips if you are presentable.

Yes, but I feel better when you bring my food if your appearance is neat. Hint: You'll get bigger tips if you are presentable.

 

All I'll say to that is that I actually have worked as a server and I consistently made better tips than any of the clean shaven guys and the girls, for that matter.

I have a huge beard and it's super manly and super awesome.  As far as appearance in the workplace goes, it's a ridiculous concept.  When you get down to brass tacks, whether or not you're wearing jeans or have your shirt tucked in has absolutely zero bearing on how well you do your job.  People are drones and ultimately stupid, and that makes them easily fooled.  You put an idiot in a decent suit and people will buy what he's selling.  It's a flaw of human nature and you're all sheep for buying into it.

 

Whoa.  That was a rant.

 

Well we have fundamental differences in that.  Skills, appearance, social graces and connections are a must today.

 

So the super smart guy in sweats and a hoody, should get a job although everyone else is dressed in appropriate work clothes.

 

When people say that "clothing" and "appearance" don't matter I think they are kidding themselves and trying to come across like they don't care. I believe that if you can't confirm to simple boundaries and use common sense to dress appropriately for work, then how can I trust you to manage projects, business relationships and execute.  But not wanting to dress up or religiously groom yourself it's like thumbing your nose at corporate hierarchy.

I have a huge beard and it's super manly and super awesome. As far as appearance in the workplace goes, it's a ridiculous concept. When you get down to brass tacks, whether or not you're wearing jeans or have your shirt tucked in has absolutely zero bearing on how well you do your job. People are drones and ultimately stupid, and that makes them easily fooled. You put an idiot in a decent suit and people will buy what he's selling. It's a flaw of human nature and you're all sheep for buying into it.

 

Whoa. That was a rant.

 

Well we have fundamental differences in that. Skills, appearance, social graces and connections are a must today.

 

So the super smart guy in sweats and a hoody, should get a job although everyone else is dressed in appropriate work clothes.

 

When people say that "clothing" and "appearance" don't matter I think they are kidding themselves and trying to come across like they don't care. I believe that if you can't confirm to simple boundaries and use common sense to dress appropriately for work, then how can I trust you to manage projects, business relationships and execute. But not wanting to dress up or religiously groom yourself it's like thumbing your nose at corporate hierarchy.

 

I agree with you.  These frivilous things ARE necessary.  What I'm saying is that they shouldn't be.  Because if you really think about it, it doesn't matter what you look like if you can do the job.  Common sense dictates this.

 

All I'll say to that is that I actually have worked as a server and I consistently made better tips than any of the clean shaven guys and the girls, for that matter.

 

So what was the reason they gave when they fired you?

I have a huge beard and it's super manly and super awesome.  As far as appearance in the workplace goes, it's a ridiculous concept.  When you get down to brass tacks, whether or not you're wearing jeans or have your shirt tucked in has absolutely zero bearing on how well you do your job.  People are drones and ultimately stupid, and that makes them easily fooled.  You put an idiot in a decent suit and people will buy what he's selling.  It's a flaw of human nature and you're all sheep for buying into it.

 

Whoa.  That was a rant.

 

Well we have fundamental differences in that.  Skills, appearance, social graces and connections are a must today.

 

So the super smart guy in sweats and a hoody, should get a job although everyone else is dressed in appropriate work clothes.

 

When people say that "clothing" and "appearance" don't matter I think they are kidding themselves and trying to come across like they don't care. I believe that if you can't confirm to simple boundaries and use common sense to dress appropriately for work, then how can I trust you to manage projects, business relationships and execute.  But not wanting to dress up or religiously groom yourself it's like thumbing your nose at corporate hierarchy.

 

I agree with you.  These frivilous things ARE necessary.  What I'm saying is that they shouldn't be.  Because if you really think about it, it doesn't matter what you look like if you can do the job.  Common sense dictates this.

 

I think they should be, or do I have to go all Miranda Priestly on you?  LOL.

 

All I'll say to that is that I actually have worked as a server and I consistently made better tips than any of the clean shaven guys and the girls, for that matter.

 

So what was the reason they gave when they fired you?

 

Haha.  Are you this delusional all the time, or just with me?  I left voluntarily.  Put in my two weeks just like a good little employee, too.

 

I have a huge beard and it's super manly and super awesome.  As far as appearance in the workplace goes, it's a ridiculous concept.  When you get down to brass tacks, whether or not you're wearing jeans or have your shirt tucked in has absolutely zero bearing on how well you do your job.  People are drones and ultimately stupid, and that makes them easily fooled.  You put an idiot in a decent suit and people will buy what he's selling.  It's a flaw of human nature and you're all sheep for buying into it.

 

Whoa.  That was a rant.

 

Well we have fundamental differences in that.  Skills, appearance, social graces and connections are a must today.

 

So the super smart guy in sweats and a hoody, should get a job although everyone else is dressed in appropriate work clothes.

 

When people say that "clothing" and "appearance" don't matter I think they are kidding themselves and trying to come across like they don't care. I believe that if you can't confirm to simple boundaries and use common sense to dress appropriately for work, then how can I trust you to manage projects, business relationships and execute.  But not wanting to dress up or religiously groom yourself it's like thumbing your nose at corporate hierarchy.

 

I agree with you.  These frivilous things ARE necessary.  What I'm saying is that they shouldn't be.  Because if you really think about it, it doesn't matter what you look like if you can do the job.  Common sense dictates this.

 

I think they should be, or do I have to go all Miranda Priestly on you?  LOL.

 

I'm not saying this about you personally, but what I've found is that the folks who tend to be all about dress codes and silly rules and micromanaging are the exact same people who are clueless abotu everything else.  I can and do run circles around those folks.

 

I'm not saying this about you personally, but what I've found is that the folks who tend to be all about dress codes and silly rules and micromanaging are the exact same people who are clueless abotu everything else.  I can and do run circles around those folks.

 

Oh thank goodness you're not talking about me.  I'm soooooooooooooo far from being a micro manager.  Why hire people if they can't do their jobs.  If I was a micromanager, I could never find the time to post here on UO!  LMAO!

 

I'm not saying this about you personally, but what I've found is that the folks who tend to be all about dress codes and silly rules and micromanaging are the exact same people who are clueless abotu everything else.  I can and do run circles around those folks.

 

Oh thank goodness you're not talking about me.  I'm soooooooooooooo far from being a micro manager.  Why hire people if they can't do their jobs.  If I was a micromanager, I could never find the time to post here on UO!  LMAO!

 

That's got nothing to do with micomanaging.  I'm talking about worrying about things that don't matter. "Did you take you lunch on time?" "Are those shoes up to dress code?" Things that have no bearing on the job itself, and yet are the things micromanagers cling to because they don't know how to do anything else.

If you don't have the self discipline to make yourself look presentable, you won't have the discipline to do everything within your power to do a good enough job for me to make me money.  And lets face it, that is the only reason I would hire you.

 

Studies have shown that students due better when there is a strict dress code.  Same applies to you. 

 

I'm tired of having to repeat the rules to you, you are fired!

 

I'm not saying this about you personally, but what I've found is that the folks who tend to be all about dress codes and silly rules and micromanaging are the exact same people who are clueless abotu everything else.  I can and do run circles around those folks.

 

Oh thank goodness you're not talking about me.  I'm soooooooooooooo far from being a micro manager.  Why hire people if they can't do their jobs.  If I was a micromanager, I could never find the time to post here on UO!  LMAO!

 

That's got nothing to do with micomanaging.  I'm talking about worrying about things that don't matter. "Did you take you lunch on time?" "Are those shoes up to dress code?" Things that have no bearing on the job itself, and yet are the things micromanagers cling to because they don't know how to do anything else.

 

Trust me, worrying if other people can do their jobs is micromanaging PLUS the items you list above.

 

However, if I see you in shoes from three seasons past, I will raise an eyebrow if they are "that" dated.  ;)  We're a very fashion conscientious office.

If you don't have the self discipline to make yourself look presentable, you won't have the discipline to do everything within your power to do a good enough job for me to make me money.  And lets face it, that is the only reason I would hire you.

 

Studies have shown that students due better when there is a strict dress code.  Same applies to you. 

 

I'm tired of having to repeat the rules to you, you are fired!

 

Studies have shown that studies prove nothing.  :lol:

 

For you, it's about discipline.  That's because, no offense, but you're sheep.  You can't understand the concept of dissassociating someone's mind from their body.  Whether or not my pants are pressed matters not if I'm a capable, intelligent person.  In fact, the time and money spent on "looking nice" could be spent doing something that's actually useful.

 

I admit, it's a fruitless agrument, because society's not going to change.  The fact remains that if you want to get ahead as a working professional, you've got to look the part.  What I'm saying is that's the wrong message to send and that the reason it exists in the first place is a reason of ignorance.

 

I could also make a classism argument, but I don't feel like it today.

If you don't have the self discipline to make yourself look presentable, you won't have the discipline to do everything within your power to do a good enough job for me to make me money.  And lets face it, that is the only reason I would hire you.

 

Studies have shown that students due better when there is a strict dress code.  Same applies to you. 

 

I'm tired of having to repeat the rules to you, you are fired!