Question: If Eaton goes to Chagrin Highlands, Cleveland gets 50 percent of the income tax and no longer has to give the $25 million in incentives to Eaton, what is Cleveland losing here?

 

And the reason why Cleveland owns property out at Chagrin Highlands is because that's where the Cleveland Workhouse was located going back to the 19th century.

 

http://ech.cwru.edu/Resource/Image/C23.jpg

Question: If Eaton goes to Chagrin Highlands, Cleveland gets 50 percent of the income tax and no longer has to give the $25 million in incentives to Eaton, what is Cleveland losing here?

 

I agree (if agreeing to something stated as a question is even possible)...Cleveland doesn't seem to be losing out monetarily (they also don't have to provide services, police, fire, etc to Eaton this way).  What Cleveland is losing is about 550 people coming downtown that apparently seem to only be interested in driving in their car, parking in a secure campus lot, then driving home.  So in short, I don't see Cleveland really losing anything here.  Screw Eaton, Beachwood can have them.

I have a better idea regarding downtown parking costs: why don't we make suburban property owners pay the full cost of having huge parking lots and large roofs (id: at superstores and office campuses) that dump tremendous volumes of stormwater into suburban sewer systems. All property owners must pay the price for that. But if suburbs had impact fees on property owners based on water runoff volume and didn't have zoning that forces retailers and office campuses to provide more parking than they actually need, then things might be more equitable between downtown vs. suburbs. Suburban property owners would have an incentive to limit the parking supply and even price it by making users actually pay for their parking.

 

And if we make parking downtown free, then we'd better make public transit free, too. How ironic it would be to have office workers who can afford cars getting a free parking space downtown while lower income workers have to pay for public transit?

I have a better idea regarding downtown parking costs: why don't we make suburban property owners pay the full cost of having huge parking lots and large roofs (id: at superstores and office campuses) that dump tremendous volumes of stormwater into suburban sewer systems. All property owners must pay the price for that. But if suburbs had impact fees on property owners based on water runoff volume and didn't have zoning that forces retailers and office campuses to provide more parking than they actually need, then things might be more equitable between downtown vs. suburbs. Suburban property owners would have an incentive to limit the parking supply and even price it by making users actually pay for their parking.

 

And if we make parking downtown free, then we'd better make public transit free, too. How ironic it would be to have office workers who can afford cars getting a free parking space downtown while lower income workers have to pay for public transit?

 

lower income workers would actually be paying TWICE. 

Question: If Eaton goes to Chagrin Highlands, Cleveland gets 50 percent of the income tax and no longer has to give the $25 million in incentives to Eaton, what is Cleveland losing here?

 

I guess we would just have more vacant space in our buildings downtown...not the end of the world, but also not something desired.

Any potential of Eaton being residentialized? I mean, I doubt it, but that would be a nice population boost to that side of Downtown.

Any potential of Eaton being residentialized? I mean, I doubt it, but that would be a nice population boost to that side of Downtown.

 

We sure could use the rentals downtown! Put some live-work in there, too.

Any potential of Eaton being residentialized? I mean, I doubt it, but that would be a nice population boost to that side of Downtown.

 

Honestly, I think that building would be better suited as a hotel.

Good call there MTS, it is not the most attractive building for residential use.

Good call there MTS, it is not the most attractive building for residential use.

 

Yeah look at the floor plate, HOWEVER, I don't like getting into "shoulda, woulda, coulda" conversations.  Since they get way off topic.

 

http://www.cbre.com/NR/rdonlyres/ABFC0485-0D58-4884-89B0-C1842BD05196/189348/EatonFloorPlan.jpg

 

 

I have a better idea regarding downtown parking costs: why don't we make suburban property owners pay the full cost of having huge parking lots and large roofs (id: at superstores and office campuses) that dump tremendous volumes of stormwater into suburban sewer systems. All property owners must pay the price for that. But if suburbs had impact fees on property owners based on water runoff volume and didn't have zoning that forces retailers and office campuses to provide more parking than they actually need, then things might be more equitable between downtown vs. suburbs. Suburban property owners would have an incentive to limit the parking supply and even price it by making users actually pay for their parking.

 

The Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District is presently moving towards a watershed-based stormwater utility model, which could include some of the above incentives so that there is a fiscal connection between the amount of impervious surface a commercial property has (with the attendant increase in runoff and stormwater volume) and what a property owner is charged.

I'm not too familiar with Westpark but is there land by the airport along rocky river drive or grayton which could accommodate Eaton's desire for a campus?  I would imagine that proximity to 71 and 480 would appeal to Eaton.

I have a better idea regarding downtown parking costs: why don't we make suburban property owners pay the full cost of having huge parking lots and large roofs (id: at superstores and office campuses) that dump tremendous volumes of stormwater into suburban sewer systems. All property owners must pay the price for that. But if suburbs had impact fees on property owners based on water runoff volume and didn't have zoning that forces retailers and office campuses to provide more parking than they actually need, then things might be more equitable between downtown vs. suburbs. Suburban property owners would have an incentive to limit the parking supply and even price it by making users actually pay for their parking.

 

The Northeast Ohio Regional Sewer District is presently moving towards a watershed-based stormwater utility model, which could include some of the above incentives so that there is a fiscal connection between the amount of impervious surface a commercial property has (with the attendant increase in runoff and stormwater volume) and what a property owner is charged.

Inglés por favor!

I'm not too familiar with Westpark but is there land by the airport along rocky river drive or grayton which could accommodate Eaton's desire for a campus?  I would imagine that proximity to 71 and 480 would appeal to Eaton.

 

That is equivalent to moving to Beachwood.  :roll:

 

The problem isn't the move to another part of the city of cleveland, its the direct result of 550 people leaving downtown and the related business that work with Eaton.  That doesn't even take into consideration the people/jobs indirectly related. 

That is equivalent to moving to Beachwood. :roll:

 

Typical east-sider. Wouldn't know the west side from Toledo.

That is equivalent to moving to Beachwood.  :roll:

 

Typical east-sider. Wouldn't know the west side from Toledo.

 

Grayton Rd. and I-480 is further from downtown than Chagrin Highlands by distance.

 

I wonder if this move would prompt an extension to the Blue Line?  I doubt it, though, seeing how important transit seemed to be to Eaton in their choice to leave FEB.

I'm not too familiar with Westpark but is there land by the airport along rocky river drive or grayton which could accommodate Eaton's desire for a campus? I would imagine that proximity to 71 and 480 would appeal to Eaton.

 

That is equivalent to moving to Beachwood. :roll:

 

The problem isn't the move to another part of the city of cleveland, its the direct result of 550 people leaving downtown and the related business that work with Eaton. That doesn't even take into consideration the people/jobs indirectly related.

 

OK, now we're getting goofy about this.  They are moving 10 miles east to beachwood, not Mexico.  They are going to still use the people they indirectly did business with.  This is not a mass layoff or layoff whatsoever.  It is an expansion.  I understand that they will not be downtown any onger, and that stinks, but we are acting as if this is the end for Cleveland as we know it, and it clearly isn't. 

^^ Of course I would prefer them to be downtown, but staying within Cleveland would mean that the City could still collect the income taxes from Eaton.

It's still in the city of Cleveland.

I understand that they will not be downtown any onger, and that stinks, but we are acting as if this is the end for Cleveland as we know it, and it clearly isn't. 

 

My point, exactly, from earlier on this page.  Downtown is losing 550 out of ~120k workers.  These workers most likely bolted at 5pm anyways.

Sorry, MTS.

 

The Sewer District right now pegs its rates to the amount of water a customer uses.  This makes sense for households, but not for offices and retailers that don't use a lot of water, but make heavy use of the storm sewers due to runoff.  They are looking at charging commericial customers for the amount of runoff (from rain, snow, etc.) that comes from their properties.  So, if you have more paved area (parking spaces, rooftops, etc.), you get charged more.  This could help put a limit on suburban development that has a metric crapload of surface parking spaces, such as the proposed Eaton relocation.

 

(back on topic)

That is equivalent to moving to Beachwood.  :roll:

 

Typical east-sider. Wouldn't know the west side from Toledo.

 

Hush!  I go to the airport on the red line weekly.

 

I think moving anywhere OUTSIDE of the CBD is asinine and the results are bad for current workers and potential future workers coming into the Cleveland workforce.

 

People will think a suburb lifestyle and work style is how it's suppose work will become MORE complacent than they already are.  Those moving from other traditional CBD offices and urban cities with a dense urban core, will likely move one.

 

The tidal wave will only get bigger if they move east.

It's still in the city of Cleveland.

 

If they choose a location (such as Grayton Rd.) that actually is still in Cleveland.  There are other locations (Aerospace Parkway) which are Brookpark which may appeal to them more by the same logic (close to I-71 and I-480 and the airport).  If they didn't want to be downtown due to Cleveland's refusal to change their tax laws, why would they choose to be in Cleveland near the airport when they could be not in Cleveland right by the airport?

Charging land owners for amount of impervios square footage can only lead to a more sprawled out community, and more of these garbage "tree lawns" in front of the Clinic and UH.  Having water retention ponds for every building is not the way to punish urban sprawl, it would only lower density.

  From Cleveland magazine a while back: Former Chair of Greater Cleveland Partnership... you wouldnt have guessed.  Goes on to talk about his "commitment to the city" and the FEB developments.  Funny.

The Influentials: Alexander M. “Sandy” Cutler

Chairman and CEO, Eaton Corp.

 

Sandy Cutler did what no one else thought was possible: consolidate three major nonprofits with similar goals into one stronger organization. He is the former chair of the Greater Cleveland Partnership, which now includes the former Greater Cleveland Growth Association, Cleveland Tomorrow and its small-business arm COSE. The consolidation has saved about $15 million during the past five years. As the head of the largest Fortune 500 company headquartered in Cleveland, Cutler’s commitment to the city also extends to his business dealings...... 

 

http://www.clevelandmagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=E73ABD6180B44874871A91F6BA5C249C&nm=Arts+%26+Entertainemnt&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle&mid=1578600D80804596A222593669321019&tier=4&id=59CC5B44CD76445D92CA5F65C384AC03

 

And from an article about Eatons involvement in the United Way campaign.  Maybe they will remain a vital part, just from a "safe" distance.

 

"In part, the United Way goal illustrates that Cutler is well aware that Eaton is one of the area's oldest and largest corporate headquarters, and that the firm and its employees are viewed as a vital part of the community."

"We feel it is more than an opportunity but an obligation to give back to our communities to ensure they stay sound, vital and dynamic, says Cutler. "We believe that talented people want to live and work in dynamic, safe communities."

 

 

 

 

Charging land owners for amount of impervios square footage can only lead to a more sprawled out community, and more of these garbage "tree lawns" in front of the Clinic and UH.  Having water retention ponds for every building is not the way to punish urban sprawl, it would only lower density.

 

Actually, conventional tree lawns with grass would not count as a credit for a property owner.  And, there is a lot more nuance to this than I could possibly express in this off-topic tangent.  I'd be happy to describe this elsewhere.

 

EDIT: Okay, I've continued the NEORSD/stormwater utility/sprawl discussion here along with links to the new program being explored by NEORSD.: http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,10106.msg326312.html#msg326312

  From Cleveland magazine a while back: Former Chair of Greater Cleveland Partnership... you wouldnt have guessed.  Goes on to talk about his "commitment to the city" and the FEB developments.  Funny.

The Influentials: Alexander M. “Sandy” Cutler

Chairman and CEO, Eaton Corp.

 

Sandy Cutler did what no one else thought was possible: consolidate three major nonprofits with similar goals into one stronger organization. He is the former chair of the Greater Cleveland Partnership, which now includes the former Greater Cleveland Growth Association, Cleveland Tomorrow and its small-business arm COSE. The consolidation has saved about $15 million during the past five years. As the head of the largest Fortune 500 company headquartered in Cleveland, Cutler’s commitment to the city also extends to his business dealings...... 

 

http://www.clevelandmagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=E73ABD6180B44874871A91F6BA5C249C&nm=Arts+%26+Entertainemnt&type=Publishing&mod=Publications%3A%3AArticle&mid=1578600D80804596A222593669321019&tier=4&id=59CC5B44CD76445D92CA5F65C384AC03

 

And from an article about Eatons involvement in the United Way campaign.  Maybe they will remain a vital part, just from a "safe" distance.

 

"In part, the United Way goal illustrates that Cutler is well aware that Eaton is one of the area's oldest and largest corporate headquarters, and that the firm and its employees are viewed as a vital part of the community."

"We feel it is more than an opportunity but an obligation to give back to our communities to ensure they stay sound, vital and dynamic, says Cutler. "We believe that talented people want to live and work in dynamic, safe communities."

 

 

 

 

Charging land owners for amount of impervios square footage can only lead to a more sprawled out community, and more of these garbage "tree lawns" in front of the Clinic and UH.  Having water retention ponds for every building is not the way to punish urban sprawl, it would only lower density.

 

Actually, conventional tree lawns with grass would not count as a credit for a property owner.  And, there is a lot more nuance to this than I could possibly express in this off-topic tangent.  I'd be happy to describe this elsewhere.

 

nice find willyboy...cutler's definition of commitment varies greatly from that of my own

Exactly!

 

"If the issue is space, then let's make more," said Councilman Joe Cimperman, whose ward includes the Flats. "I don't think this deal is done."

 

This is what i like about cimperman, he has positive energy and may put up a bit of a fight.  Im not going to consider Eaton gone until they being building that campus in Beachwood.

 

Well yeah, and Mr. Cutler (CEO of Eaton) was a donor towards his Congressional run..

Charging land owners for amount of impervios square footage can only lead to a more sprawled out community, and more of these garbage "tree lawns" in front of the Clinic and UH. Having water retention ponds for every building is not the way to punish urban sprawl, it would only lower density.

 

Actually, conventional tree lawns with grass would not count as a credit for a property owner. And, there is a lot more nuance to this than I could possibly express in this off-topic tangent. I'd be happy to describe this elsewhere.

 

Plus there are also "green roofs" that can absorb water, too -- which can work either for or against pro-sprawl forces.

I was curious as to the argument for corporate campus vs high rise and Googled just that. The sales pitch of course flies in the face of all that is holy to me, but here are a couple if you're interested in this sort isolationist argument.

 

http://www.albertaconstructionmagazine.com/articles.asp?ID=460

 

http://www.domandevelopments.ca/engine.cfm?i=1

Statement From City Hall & Port Authority. http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20080918/FREE/809189961/1004/newsletter01

Any potential of Eaton being residentialized? I mean, I doubt it, but that would be a nice population boost to that side of Downtown.

 

There's a tower in Fort Worth that's strikingly similar to Eaton - it was walloped by a tornado and stood vacant for years. Eventually it was redeveloped into residential - they were pretty creative and added balconies, etc.

 

The tower after the tornado - note the reflective glass (that's left) - very similar to Eaton. Image from glasssteelandstone.com:

 

And I think the "notched" areas on Eaton could accomodate balconies, etc.

 

And with the new glass facade and balconies - image from dfwi.org

With only 550 employees downtown, Eaton obviously does not occupy the entire building. Anyone know how much of that building is occupied by other companies and how much is vacant?

 

Thanks for those photos MayDay. Conversion to residential is an interesting idea.

It was stated earlier that at least the city wouldn't have to provide safety services the the highlands.....wrong...the CFD responds there from time to time...I have never actually made it all the way there on a response, but it seems like we are headed to PA when we get a call there....let them move there...if they get a fire, it will be a pile of cinders by the time we get there! 

Intresting note about the Eaton building, the old CEO of Medical Mutual built the Chisel Building and when he did Eaton wanted to occupy 18 of the 30 or so floors, from what I heard the deal fell through because the guy wouldnt let them name it Eaton Building... even though they were renting 66% or so of the building, so they built the Emerald City jock off...

 

In other news, went to the Cimperman fundraiser today.  It wasnt in Tremont like I said but rather Joes Little Bar and Grill on Frankfurt in the Warehouse District.  Ciperman was in his usual good spirits joking about looking for a new home that was made of brick or stone... when I brought up Eaton he expressed his unhappines and then gave me his email and told me to contact him about more info.  As far as approachable and positive, he's top notch.  I personaly told him about UO.com and what we are and the wealth of knowledge pooled here.  I am going to write him an email tomorrow which I will post and I will be sure to post the response... Frank Jackson didn't end up showing up as I had thought he would so no comment from the mayor as of yet.  I'm just going to call his office tomorrow and see how far I get.

http://blog.cleveland.com/business/2008/09/states_sweetened_offer_not_eno.html

State's sweetened offer not enough to keep Eaton in Cleveland

Posted by Tom Breckenridge and Michelle Jarboe/Plain Dealer Reporters

September 18, 2008 19:32PM

 

 

For Lt. Gov. Lee Fisher, a Clevelander and fan of the core city's charms, the call from Sandy Cutler was a stomach churner.

 

After months of planning, the chief executive officer of Cleveland's Fortune 500 landmark was saying a downtown move to the Flats probably wouldn't work. Chagrin Highlands in Beachwood was looking bigger and better for Eaton Corp.

 

Fisher's first response? Sweeten the pot...

The more I read about this potential move, the more it seems the city and state has done a lot to keep Eaton downtown. If Eaton is concerned about not having enough land for future growth, how come another developer has not stepped up and offered another option?

scranton peninsula!

The more I read about this potential move, the more it seems the city and state has done a lot to keep Eaton downtown. If Eaton is concerned about not having enough land for future growth, how come another developer has not stepped up and offered another option?

 

I was thinking the same thing, wondering when Jacobs (blech!!) would step up and dell them the Public Square tower, but he will probably be developing their home in Beachwood anyways.  Forest City?  Probably to preoccupied with trying to get even more of the county's tax dollars :)  Based on the comments from the execs earlier about being "committed" to Cleveland, I really think this whole deal has to do with the top exec's retirement accounts, and nothing more. 

 

So we'll have around 600 less people downtown... hopefully they will be replaced by people that actually want to spend time in the city.

According to today's paper it's 450 employees... and this has way more to do with Eaton's desire for a sprawling green campus than anything else.

According to today's paper it's 450 employees... and this has way more to do with Eaton's desire for a sprawling green auto-centric with yippee f#cking skippee free parking campus than anything else.

 

Fixed that for you ;-)

^Thanks.  Yes, it's quite apparent that they want nothing to do with building "up", so unless some developer wants to level multiple blocks of the downtown area for this type of horrid development, I don't think there's much anyone can do.  it stings losing the name from downtown, but I really don't want to see this type of development down here.  I was OK with it contained in the loop, but if that's not big enough for them there is no where else I'd be willing to sacrifice.

There was also an editorial in the PD that brought up the fact that if Jackson made too much of a plea for them to stay downtown, it would betry his stance on regionalism, which I thought was an interesting point.

Any mention of Beachwood's Mayor's responsibilities towards the goal of regionalism?

Well, since it's on Changrin Highlands land, Cleveland will be sharing 50/50 in the taxes with Beachwood, no?

 

I mean, I know I'm grasping at straws here, but it's better than nothing. I'm not happy, but I'm trying to look for the silver lining .. lol.

Yeah, this isn't the worst thing to happen to Cleveland, though I'm sure that as the story develops, it will be painted as a devastating blow to a struggling Downtown.  "Can Cleveland survive Eaton's departure? Story at 11!"

The PD did have some classic lines in there apart from its usually "struggling city" lines.  This one was my favorite: 

 

It plans to leave its dark high-rise on Superior Avenue.

 

Translation for the average cleveland.commer:  Eaton leaves the high-rise of darkness in the scary, evil and struggling Downtown Cleveland on the destitute Superior Avenue for the green paradise and safety of the suburbs.  :roll: 

 

I know they're leaving a black buiding, but the tone of that sentence just seems to give it a dual meaning.  And coming from the PD, I somehow don't think that was an accident. 

Since the FEB 9 acres is not enough Does anyone know exactly how much acreage they desire in their corpoate campus?  12? 15? 20 acres

I don't know about you, but when I see a sprawling office campus in the suburbs it says to me "regional offices." When I see a company's name on an office tower downtown, it says "world headquarters."

 

Sometimes I think this statement has a dollar value in PR, and says something about a company's pride. A downtown skyscraper is a chest-thumping setting. Conversely, a suburban office park suggests a company wants to hide behind lawns and shrubs and big parking lots. Although Eaton is a large and growing company, an office park location tells me the company is in withdrawal mode.

I don't know about you, but when I see a sprawling office campus in the suburbs it says to me "regional offices." When I see a company's name on an office tower downtown, it says "world headquarters."

 

Sometimes I think this statement has a dollar value in PR, and says something about a company's pride. A downtown skyscraper is a chest-thumping setting. Conversely, a suburban office park suggests a company wants to hide behind lawns and shrubs and big parking lots. Although Eaton is a large and growing company, an office park location tells me the company is in withdrawal mode.

I second that!