I know this is not the case for some people, but in a lot of instances, it is my experience that 23 yo recent graduates seem to be less mature than they were prior to begining college.  It may not be maturity that is the correct word here, rather values, but that's what this discussion is about.  A lot stems from C-Dawgs photo's and some of his comments (I do respect C-Dawg however, and can tell there is a very smart and driven man behind his comments/photos.  Pretty much typical college stuff) along with my personnel experiences of seeing the recent grads around the office.  Alot of these people, expecially the guys, after they feal comfortable around the office, will talk rather loudly about how drunk they were over the weekend, and girls they met, and how they have been drinking alot lately and going out every night.  Then you'll have the high school kids that come in and shadow for a day.  They always look well put together, very polite and nice to talk to. 

 

I don't know, just observations I have made between 18 yo's and 23 yo's.  Maybe I am totally off base, and was wondering what everyone else though.

 

This is also a thread to discuss the comments on marrige in the "Graduating today is a salary killer" thread so we don't go off topic there. 

I'm guessing they're just more vocal about their debauchery so their co-workers know they can "hang". Those of us who have been doing that for years know it's better to leave people guessing ;-)

I'm guessing they're just more vocal about their debauchery so their co-workers know they can "hang". Those of us who have been doing that for years know it's better to leave people guessing ;-)

 

That is very evident at the company Christmas Parties.  Good Point, and I was going to bring that up. 

I think it depends on the individual.  When I went off to college, my parents actually made me go so that I could "keep an eye" on my older brother.  He and the five other male cousins that were also enrolled, (I think, at one point, there were 12 of us enrolled at OSU at the same time) seemed to party and act like boys away from home for the first time.

 

I'm guessing they're just more vocal about their debauchery so their co-workers know they can "hang". Those of us who have been doing that for years know it's better to leave people guessing ;-)

 

That is very evident at the company Christmas Parties.  Good Point, and I was going to bring that up. 

Holiday parties are the worst, I actually had to fire someone for their "behavior" at a holdiay party.

Not that I don't tip a few back on weekends, but it is not something that I need to talk about with co-workers.  If someone asks "how was your weekend?"  I would reply "Good.  Worked in the yard, my wife and I went out Saturday night (AKA drank a bit too much but not going to say that out loud at the office) and just sat around and played with the kids on Sunday (AKA woke up with a splitting headache and a messed up stomach, didn't want to move, but also not going to let the whole office know I was hungover). 

 

Holiday parties are the worst, I actually had to fire someone for their "behavior" at a holdiay party.

 

Yipes.

 

I think it's just an attest to some people's morals. When I worked at a rather LARGE place of lodging out of college, I purposely skipped the holiday parties because I knew what went on there.

 

 

Holiday parties are the worst, I actually had to fire someone for their "behavior" at a holdiay party.

 

Yipes.

 

I think it's just an attest to some people's morals. When I worked at a rather LARGE place of lodging out of college, I purposely skipped the holiday parties because I knew what went on there.

 

He needed to be fired.  You don't ask the CEO (my boss) of your company, if she would like you to help her "get her groove back"? 

 

I think the immaturity of 20-somethings these days (admittedly, an over-generalization) stems from the fact that their parents were from my generation—baby boomers, possibly the most self-centered and spoiled group of people ever (not that everyone fell into that spoiled group; far from it, but the cultural elites sort of set the tone for that era). Since many boomers threw away the values of their parents’ generation (the WWII group), they compensated by spoiling their kids even more (I'm always shocked to read about the increasing need of ever more materialistic amenities to "survive"  :roll: at college these days (though in fairness, if we'd had the onslaught of digital devices back then, I'm sure they would have been just as popular. But I guess today's students are being groomed early for their eventual entry into the yuppie class--maybe expectations will decrease after this week!). I read an article a couple of years ago how some parents today basically are attached to the hip to their kids in college, calling & emailing constantly and essentially controlling their lives (under the guise of being their "best friends"); and here’s the weird part: the kids don’t object! I don’t know how anybody would be expected to become independent and mature in an environment like that.

I think a lot of this was covered in the thread about lowering the drinking age. As far as the highschool kids being more mature, i think it has less to do with maturity and more with comfort level in the work place.

 

Personally i did a ton of internships and co-ops during college so by the time I graduated I had a fully developed work persona. That persona is pretty mild, lots of code words like GoTribe mentioned. I haven't had that experience but I really don't work to closely with the new hires, I am 30 and the second youngest in my dept.

 

I did an internship at GM and that year they had a student co-op/intern summit at COBOL hall in Detroit. We took a bus up from Lordstown with about 20 college kids. So of course being underage we went across the river to Windsor, it did not end pretty. We had people throwing up on sidewalks, girls making out with each other and our bus back was delayed by 2 hours because they couldn't wake somebody up in their hotel room (with everone else sitting on the bus already). Actually I am not sure if this has anything to do with the topic but it sure did bring back memories.

"I don’t know how anybody would be expected to become independent and mature in an environment like that."

 

They won't. It's part of that repugnantly stupid concept that parents should be "friends" with their kids - which is almost as repugnantly stupid as the notion of "intelligently negotiating" with a screaming toddler.

 

I've had co-workers lament that they have little control over their kids. What do they expect when they cater to their kids' every whim because they're too worried about their kid thinking they're "cool"? When one said "well, this is the second car he totaled in a year - a 2006 Mitsubishi Spyder. I just worry that if I yell at him too much, he won't want to spend time with the family", I couldn't contain myself. I said "1. you're an absolute idiot for buying your kid a car like that, 2. considering how he drives, he may not be alive long enough to spend time with the family and 3. he's your KID, not your friend - not your bud - you have free license to discipline your kid as you see fit - that's called PARENTING!". I was ready for an earful, and the guy just shrugged and said "yeah, I guess you're right".  :wtf:

 

 

Good points, it seems like parents are holdong their kids hands too much, being friends with them, and not enforcing the essential rules of the world.  Also, they are not growing up with a work ethic. 

 

I don't think college kids understand that they are on their own when they graduate.  I think they still think Mom and Dad are their best friends that they can always depend on for money, food and lodging (in rough times, sure...but not forever).  I think they view college as High School part 2, but living away from home without parental supervision.  After they graduate, move back in with Mom and Dad, party some more for a couple years, and try to save up for their own place.  I don;t know if some college kids understand everything that goes into being on their own and independent financially.  Maybe they need to teach this in high school/college.  I remember when I graduated and bought our house, I didn't know how much my homeowners insurance was going to be, and that you had to pay regional income tax for not working in the same town.  I didn't know about PMI on a house, escrow payments etc etc.  I really wish they told me this stuff sometime...IIRC, I was shocked.  Obviously I had to readjust the plans and save more while staying in an apartment.  But I remember thinking, Man, I'm 23 years old, why didn't I know about all this stuff already.  I guess it's partly live and learn, nothing comes easy, and partly, we are not taught the practical everyday stuff in life. 

 

 

I pretty much didn't have much post college time at home, two months and then I moved to Columbus without a job and  moved in with my girlfriend (now my wife) and we had our first son the following May. You figure it out. It really is amazing what you can accomplish when challenged.

 

My brother is only 6 years younger than me but he seems to be the stereotypical recent grad that Gotribe is talking about. He is currently back home after moving to Colorado twice and has a pretty much worthless degree and he complains that he can't DO anything. He is considering grad school but doesn't seem too serious about it. 

 

 

You don't ask the CEO (my boss) of your company, if she would like you to help her "get her groove back"?

 

And how would you know if you didn't ask?

You don't ask the CEO (my boss) of your company, if she would like you to help her "get her groove back"?

 

And how would you know if you didn't ask?

 

Awesome...

My brother is only 6 years younger than me but he seems to be the stereotypical recent grad that Gotribe is talking about. He is currently back home after moving to Colorado twice and has a pretty much worthless degree and he complains that he can't DO anything. He is considering grad school but doesn't seem too serious about it.

 

To be honest, this is going to get more common, not less common. The economy really is bad in some parts of the country (especially Ohio). Job hunting now is worse than job hunting just three or four years ago. And we've got two wars on top of all that...

 

That's part of it.  Just because you went to college doesn't mean you can not get a job at Lowes or Home Depot until you find something else.  College loans will start coming in a few months after you graduate so you need to have some money coming in.  You don't need to be making 40k a year to rent a cheap apartmnent somewhere.  I would be more than happy to take my kids in after they graduate for a couple months, but not if they are not working somewhere.  I understand the loan payments are high, and they haven't gotten their first few paychecks yet.  You are not a failure if you went to college and are working at a warehouse or whatever afterward, that is admirable. 

 

Don't worry, the market will come around and people will start hiring.  You will not be working at a restaurant for the rest of your life. 

 

My friends brother graduated college 2 yrs ago (took him 7 years), and he has quit 4 jobs.  He refuses to work at anything that does not require a degree, because thats below him, however he quit 4 jobs that does require a degree. 

My brother is only 6 years younger than me but he seems to be the stereotypical recent grad that Gotribe is talking about. He is currently back home after moving to Colorado twice and has a pretty much worthless degree and he complains that he can't DO anything. He is considering grad school but doesn't seem too serious about it.

 

To be honest, this is going to get more common, not less common. The economy really is bad in some parts of the country (especially Ohio). Job hunting now is worse than job hunting just three or four years ago. And we've got two wars on top of all that...

 

Some friends and I in BG had a discussion about this last night. Even though most of us are doing "OK" (and a good friend just got into grad school), we came to the conclusion that 2008 is not a good year to be graduating from college. A lot of people are looking at grad school not because they're gung ho about it, just because it seems like a better option if you've got the grades and/or and standardized test scores.

 

I understand completely, I graduated in 2001 a year late because of co-ops. It was pretty tough then too. The economy started tanking that spring and then 9/11 happened later that year.A lot of people I knew that had graduated in 2000,who were showered with job offers, ended up laid off a year later. I guess I would have to say I made with 50% skill and 50% dumb luck. There was a point where I was fed up and was accepted at Law school for the next fall, when I had the dumb luck to get a job offer that I couldn't pass up.

My friends brother graduated college 2 yrs ago (took him 7 years), and he has quit 4 jobs. He refuses to work at anything that does not require a degree, because thats below him, however he quit 4 jobs that does require a degree.

 

Well, in seven years, I hope he got three degrees, or ten minors, or SOMETHING. And quitting jobs and then complaining you don't have a job is, well, sort of "asking for it."

 

Yeah, just one degree.  He is the type of guy who lives for the moment.  I can remember he took out the max on college loans for a computer, spring break, and drinking money.  Probably never thought the bill would come in the mail.  But yes, he is asking for it. 

Along the lines of what gotribe said, I've noticed that today's college grads are (imho) waaaaaaaay too eager to run back to academia if they don't find work that meets their sometimes unrealistic expectations. I had a graphic design grad ask me "do you think I should go back for my masters? I think that would get me something around $50K a year, right?". It took all I had not to cackle in their face - I said "most graphic design jobs pay $25K-$35K right out of school; maybe a little more in the larger markets but of course there's the higher cost of living." The expression on their face wasn't entirely unlike a kid who just found out that Santa and the Tooth Fairy don't exist.

Along the lines of what gotribe said, I've noticed that today's college grads are (imho) waaaaaaaay too eager to run back to academia if they don't find work that meets their sometimes unrealistic expectations. I had a graphic design grad ask me "do you think I should go back for my masters? I think that would get me something around $50K a year, right?". It took all I had not to cackle in their face - I said "most graphic design jobs pay $25K-$35K right out of school; maybe a little more in the larger markets but of course there's the higher cost of living." The expression on their face wasn't entirely unlike a kid who just found out that Santa and the Tooth Fairy don't exist.

 

Good analogy.  Also, for the 3 years they were in grad school, they probably could have made themselves $120,000.00 and at least one promotion.  It really depends on the field you are in whether or not you go to grad school.  In engineering, I know it's much more important to pass your Professional Engineers exam (taken after 5 years of work experience) then it is to go to grad school. 

 

My outlook is, try to make as much as you can with your 4 year degree combined with good social skills and a close network of associates within you company and outside.  Just concentrate on that and making some money the day you graduate. 

It depends if they are running back to get on the college loan teat or if they realize that their combination of degree and experience is pretty unmarketable and that they need a realistic degree to meet their expectations.

 

I keep going through this with my brother he won't apply for a job because he isn't qualified and "doesn't have the experience" but he won't get the experience unless he applies for a job and they like him and hire him. Most entry level jobs are looking for a very base level skills in the field and mostly they want to make sure you can learn on the job and aren't a moron.

 

My brother does currently have a dayjob but he is still looking for a "real job"

My guess is that this same discussion could have been had in 1970, 1950, or 1850.  And of course, none of this fits the description of anyone on here, too.

Just commenting on various things said here, because I need to take a break from Photoshop.

 

As testament to my old-fart status, I went off to college with two suitcases, a clock radio, and a bicycle; everything fit into my parents' '57 Mercury with room for Mom and Dad, my aunt, and me. Nowadays at move-in time the campus streets are clogged with U-Hauls. The party atmosphere then wasn't near what it is now, but I had a roommate who'd get plastered regularly on weekends. It really didn't matter, because drunk or sober, he was still a dipsh!t.

 

Re office parties, I always refrained from drinking alcohol. I had enough trouble with impulse control and a smart mouth when I was younger, anyway. I once saw a payroll manager in his 60s removed from the premises and taken home because he was heckling a corporate VP while the VP was addressing the group. Amazingly, he kept his job.

 

Re recent grads, there are all kinds. We had some in the office who recognized the value of the opportunity to gain work experience, and conducted themselves as mature adults and contributed a lot to the mission. There were some who did otherwise.

 

I'm thinking particularly of one case of arrested development who definitely qualified as a hunk or a heartthrob in the looks department when he hired on, and who regularly called in sick on Mondays and later bragged about how f*cked up he got on the weekend. It's been 8 years since I retired, and the last I heard, he was still there, still on the same job. The blast-furnace metabolism of his early twenties has long-since flamed out and he's a fat, jowly-faced drunk who still thinks he's a hottie and still gets trashed on weekends. He'll be stuck in his entry-level job until he gets job-eliminated or goes on disability with liver disease.

 

College and I didn't hit it off, but as soon as I realized that wasn't going to work out, I got a job. A factory job, but a job, nonetheless. I paid board at home and bought groceries until I could get a tiny efficiency apartment, and since 19 I've been on my own. My brothers, both with a lot more education, one two years younger and the other six years younger, both have been back under the parental roof multiple times in their twenties, thirties, forties and fifties. Mom's in a nursing home now and the youngest one makes his way via fraud, scams and theft. The other one lives in Mom's paid-for house.

 

Okay. My work here is done. Back to Photoshop.

I think when it comes to the matter of building character, college fails miserably, despite the "college experience" being so much of a college's marketing strategy.  Definitely, joining the military or doing tough physical work like coal mining, working on an oil rig, etc., builds way more character.  You experience what real leadership is and pathetic individuals are called out for being pathetic.  Being pushed way past your preconceived physical and mental limits automatically builds character, as does living on somebody else's terms. 

 

College does none of that.  To me college always felt like I was away at camp and I always sensed that a lot of the professors and administrators confused their decades-old drug habits for having "character".  It never felt serious and when the faculty would get together and act serious (graduation, etc.) I didn't buy it.  Unfortunately the clowns who I had as professors seemed to at least match if not outnumber the people who I respected and admired and who I think I will always respect and admire.  Three of the best professors I had were Chinese and so were not bound to political correctness and had lived through so much adversity that their words carried exponentially more weight.  I vividly remember as a freshman taking Political Science 101 from a Chinese professor who pounded the podium and got red (no pun intended) in the face almost every class criticizing the Chinese government and extolling the American system.  I was young and frustrated that I couldn't really understand what he was trying to tell us.  Another told us of how he was removed from his family in Shanghai at age 14 and forced to do peasant farm work near the Mongolian border until he was 18 to replenish the rural population decimated by the 1958 famine that killed 30 million.  Meanwhile, America's 14-18 population text messages each with every emotional swell.           

 

We're now dealing the repercussions of giving trophies to kids for just participating in organized sports.  Everyone is told how fantastic they are when they're a kid and nobody tells them even if you're in the top 1% in intelligence there's 3 million other people in this country as smart as you.  If you're merely in the top 5% there's 15 million.  Don't feel so special anymore do you? 

 

The growth of the reality shows merely documenting people doing physical work goes a long way toward supporting what I'm talking about.  Crab fishing, Dirty Jobs, loggers in Oregon, driving trucks on ice, etc.  Hardly anyone has to do anything real so they get to come home to air conditioning and watch people do real stuff on TV.   

 

Allright, I could go on for quite awhile on this subject so I'm cutting it off here. 

 

Putting off college should not be looked down upon. Some people aren't ready for it. I know I wasn't, but my parents sort of forced me into it. I think they just wanted to get rid of me...

 

 

 

Gee, do you think?

>A lot of career tracks these days require a master's or higher for vertical movement.

 

The key thing people need to do when thinking about going to graduate school is to seek out and ask successful people in their field what they should do.  Don't just go to grad school because you can't get a job!  All that's going to happen is you're going to get out of grad school and really not be able to get any job since nobody wants to hire you for an entry-level job when you don't have job experience, they think you're overqualified, or they think because you have a master's you're going to demand more money and take off after 6 months.  Also, if you're 29 or 30, they're going to be less likely to hire you for a job that more typically goes to a 23 or 24 year-old.

 

Resume padding in college (internships, campus organizations, etc.) can be very effective in getting a better first job.  It's sad, because none of that junk really makes you a better person, but it's the truth.  I was somewhat oblivious to that in college and I paid the price.  I always tell people who are leaving for college to join 2 organizations the first week they get there so that they can position themselves to have a leadership roll their junior and senior years.  If they join 2 and can stick with both of them then fine or they can drop the one they like less.  People think they'll need that time to study but they're wrong -- the busier you are the more you'll get done.   

 

Of course in whatever you do there is enormous frustration in not getting your foot in the door.  I know people who couldn't get a start 3 years out of school in their field and they became depressed.  The older and more depressed they became, the less chance they had of breaking in.  You have to take any job you can get in your field if you're in a tough field.  One of my best friends had to take a $10/hr part time job proofreading instruction manuals to break in to publishing, and he had a double major 4.0 from any Ivy League school.  Unfortunately for those of us carrying a lot of school debt, we can't afford to live and make the loan payments on $10/hr alone.  Trust fund people's careers are just hobbies and so it's really frustrating to see those people gobble up the good entry-level jobs.  However they live a life of leisure and so can afford to show up to interviews refreshed and in expensive clothes.     

Along the lines of what gotribe said, I've noticed that today's college grads are (imho) waaaaaaaay too eager to run back to academia if they don't find work that meets their sometimes unrealistic expectations. I had a graphic design grad ask me "do you think I should go back for my masters? I think that would get me something around $50K a year, right?". It took all I had not to cackle in their face - I said "most graphic design jobs pay $25K-$35K right out of school; maybe a little more in the larger markets but of course there's the higher cost of living." The expression on their face wasn't entirely unlike a kid who just found out that Santa and the Tooth Fairy don't exist.

 

No what gets me are the kids - even interns - that think they know it all!

 

I hate it when I have to go "Miranda" on these kids!