Posted September 30, 200816 yr It's been a while since I've posted anything, but I thought this was worthy of a post. Anyone got $650k and then another $1mil to pump into for repairs/renovations? From the Middletown Journal Sorg Mansion up for sale By Ed Richter Staff Writer Tuesday, September 30, 2008 MIDDLETOWN — Got $650,000? If so, you can purchase one of Middletown's most historic and majestic landmarks. Contact this reporter at (513) 705-2871 or [email protected].
September 30, 200816 yr Don't forget the last 12 month gas & electric for this property totaled over $42,000 (over $30,000 just for the main house alone).
October 1, 200816 yr Original part yes. Early 1900's addition, no. It was designed by a firm in Dayton. Pretzinger Musselman I think.
October 2, 200816 yr Here's the Samuel Hannaford version of the house from about 1887-1902 Here's a photo right after the renovations were completed around 1902 by Pretzinger & Musselman of Dayton
October 4, 200816 yr that doesn't look that bad. Are you sure it will take a million to update? I am sure the electrical and heating/cooling systems need major overhaul. Plus, it is currently dividend into 17 smaller apartments, most rented to low income tenants. I can only imagine what kind of wear and tear the rest of the house must have. The interior shots are mostly "common" areas.
October 5, 200816 yr I toured the property with the realtor last weekend. I expected the house to be in much worse condition than it was. The boiler and electric service are fairly new. The house is used as a rooming house which means that individual rooms are rented, therefore they have not been subdivided into units. They share the original bathrooms and cooking is not allowed, so no new kitchens or bathrooms have been added. The woodwork and sculpted plaster ceilings are fantastic and in fairly good shape. The stained glass windows are in rough shape, but can be repaired. We were not allowed into rented rooms which means that we only saw half of the house. We did see the carriage house and servants house which were great on their own. The house demonstrated a level of craftsmanship that is unparalleled in southwest Ohio. The entry is floor to ceiling carved panels in mahogany. The alcove of the ballroom has mosaic tiles with floral designs on the walls and ceiling which is spectacular since the background is entirely real gold plated tiles. the house has huge potential as a tourist destination, B&B, conference center, resteraunt, etc.
October 5, 200816 yr So after touring the property what do you think of the price? They must have fixed it up since the last time I was in there b/c I remember it might have been in better shape than expected, but it was still pretty rough. Like the refrigerator that leaked in the library for so many years that it rotted a good sized hole in the floor. It was pretty cool how the hole was filled in with plywood next to all the inlaid wood flooring. I also remember the music room floor (the room used as a dance school for many years) being in horrible condition and pieces of flooring missing. I do think they finally removed the tree that grew all the way up through the chimney till it got to be about 5 feet taller than the house. It only shifted a few walls on the 1st and 2nd floor. As I mentioned in a post above, the gas & electric alone for this property are over $40,000 per year. When it does sell, the taxes will most likely triple since the parcel with the main house on it is only valued at $175,000. Then you have insurance, regular maintenance, h2o, etc. Anyone buying this property is going to have roughly $70,000 a year in expenses and that's not even including mortgage payments. Once you add mortgage payments on top of the other expenses you could be talking a budget of over $110,000 a year just to live there and that doesn't include any rehab costs.
October 6, 200816 yr Any chance this property could somehow be incorporated into any Forest Hills County Club redevelopment?
October 6, 200816 yr I agree that the house is not in great condition but most of the original fabric of the house is still there. Even with the damage, there is enough still there that missing pieces can be replicated. I agree that a $1 million restoration budget is a good figure. (although I think Prescott House in Springfield cost over $1.7 million to restore) The house is over priced given the restoration costs. I am currently restoring an 1870's, 6,000+ sf house that was used as a nursing home for the past 40 years that has seen extensive abuse and remodelaing. In my perspective, the Sorg Mansion is in pretty good shape. What the property needs is a great business plan. Several years ago I spoke with a potential buyer that wanted to use the carriage house as a micro-winery and bistro. The house would be a B&B on the upper floors with the main floor for receptions & events. The owner would live in the 3,700 sf. servant's house. The property needs a plan that would generate the cash flow to pay the operation and maintenance expenses. (the house is horribly inefficient for energy consumption in its current state). The property is eligible for state and federal tax credits for historic rehabilitation. There is also a possibility for City financial assistance.
October 6, 200816 yr madcow - I pretty much agree with what you say, but I just don't understand the notion of creating a business based on a building vs. the act of creating a business solely. Maybe I'm wrong, but I just think most entrepreneurs start a business based on market area, demographics, etc. and grow from there. Sure there are exceptions, but for the most part you have to do what the market can handle for any business that is created. I've always heard these ideas of the Sorg Mansion being a museum or a restaurant and so many other ideas, but it's always these businesses or ideas that don't already exist. Starting a business is hard enough without a lot of excessive overhead. Anyone trying to buy this property for use as a business is going to have an incredible amount of overhead beyond normal in a location that is not popular and smells like backed up sewer at night. Why Middletown cannot solve the sewer smells in the downtown area at night remains a mystery to me. I've heard the stories that the sewers are over-sized and there's not enough activity at night compared to during the day, but whatever the reason it should be fixed for good. I do hope whoever buys this property has the funds to maintain it over anything else. A lot of people don't realize how expensive it can be. I won't go into too much detail, but I'll just say that I've got family that bought a property that was owned by a non-profit for several decades and it looked like it was in decent shape, etc. Well, after moving into the property, those drop ceilings were hiding cracked ceilings that collapsed. That one bathroom wasn't used, not b/c it wasn't needed, but b/c it was fragile and everything burst in it. Those walls weren't covered with 1970's paneling b/c it was easier to maintain, they were covered to hide busted or cracked plaster and holes that were never fixed. I could go on and on over how some businesses or non-profits treat these properties b/c of limited budgets, but my point is, the unexpected costs can take a person down if they haven't budgeted for the excessive unexpected. It looks easy seeing it on tv and actually I know the property you have on S. Main and it looks incredible from the street with the paint job, etc. But seeing finished products or fixed up exteriors or a 30 minute show on HGTV makes it seem so much easier than it is. Again, I just hope whoever or whatever buys this property has the funds to maintain it properly. And I hope the Finkelmans don't drop the price just to find the first person that can qualify for a lower purchase price. It's going to take somebody with deep pockets to buy and maintain that property the way it needs to be maintained.
October 7, 200816 yr On the Westcott House... I have a great link in my bookmarks for anyone wanting to see some pretty extensive photos: http://www.peterbeers.net/interests/flw_rt/Ohio/Wescott_House/wescott_house.htm Not sure of the exact costs for the rehab. I've read as high as $5.8m. I know my opinion on these rehabs isn't a popular one, but I really wish when they're getting ready to spend millions on these properties that they just take the extra step to dismantle the entire house and then put it back together in a better location. When they do these museum quality restorations they usually just about dismantle the entire house anyway. I say take the framing down, load it up and move it while you're at it. Just a thought for the cool old houses stuck in crappy locations.
January 3, 200916 yr Just a couple notes, the Mansion is valued at 220,000 for 2008. The Servants house, (200 s Main ) is valued at another 85,000 So the taxes would double (800/month) if the auditor raised the value to the sales price and they got what they wanted. Also, just converting the house to using high efficency gas furnaces would cut the gas usage in half. there is a similar style home - same sandstone construction- over 10,000 sf... and the guy's budget (as of august) is 900 a month for gas. A commercial geothermal furnace could get that down to the $300-500 a month range if the roof of that place is insulated and the single pane windows are restored, using double pane glass in the same sashes. Restoring the windows (without having to replace any wood, and not counting stained glass) would run 100-200 a window (from a quote i got last year ) If I was to purchase the place, I would actually hire the firm that worked on the Prescott House for a preliminary report. Chambers, Murphy, and Burge is a great restoration firm, located here in Akron Ohio. I personally know Mrs. Murphy, and I am friends with her Son. The asking price- I think It is a little high. I have looked at historical homes all across the state that needed restored and that are done, and 650K for a house in need of restoration and repair is a bit much. As an example, Look at the Foos mansion for sale in Springfield. 11,000 sf, restored. Purchased in 2001 for 450,000 ... was also restored in 2001 (don't know if it was the purchasers or sellers that did the work). The home went on the market last year with an asking price of $995,000- and didn't sell. It is currently in the low $700's and mind you, this is a commercial property that has been completely restored.
January 4, 200916 yr cool! I always wanted to see the interior of the Sorg house. I just bought an old house down the street a bit from it. From what I know, someone who was taking pictures of the interior was asked to stop since there was a bunch of drug stuff all over the place on the inside :( Hopefully someone can restore it. I would hate to see this old mansion be stripped!
January 7, 200916 yr Forgive me since this is my first attempt to post imagages on a blog, but I hope I can get some coaching about how to do this right. (I tried the instructions but only got text on the preview without the link to the photos. I need to know how to insert the actual images) These attachments are a series of interior shots of the Sorg Mansion and a few of the architectural drawings prepared for the 1902 remodeling and expansion of the mansion. The Historical Society has about 30 pages of drawings including floor plans, elevations and interior details. Since many of the rooms are rented to private individuals, unfortunately we could not take photos of the spctacular details. (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/Picture053.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/Picture054.jpg)(http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/Picture070-1.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/Picture073-1.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/sorg-b.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/sorg-c.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/sorg-e.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/sorg-f.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/sorg-g.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/DSC00953.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/Sorg-a.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/DSC00957.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/DSC00941.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/Picture074-1.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/Picture009-1.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/DSC00956.jpg) (http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/DSC00960.jpg)
January 9, 200916 yr OMG. I would kill for the entry floor! I mean it! The attached is more similar tilework on the library fireplace. http://i397.photobucket.com/albums/pp57/madcowmarty/Picture072-1.jpg (I still do not know how to get the photos to post)
January 9, 200916 yr God, why destroy that. I wish my brownstone had a quarter of the stuff in this house. Why destroy craftmanship like this? I don't get it!
January 10, 200916 yr Great set of photos. It's in worse shape than I remembered from 10 years ago. I guess the little old lady that used to run the place was a little tougher on the tenants.
January 14, 200916 yr it sucks that the people who live here seem not to really care about the house :( Nice use of the wall light as a hat rack.
August 13, 200915 yr I grew up down the street from this beautiful mansion, I always thought it was a castle. Talk about wanting to be a princess when you grow up... Man I wish I could afford to purchase and fix up this place... it'd be wonderful to see it returned to it's former glory.
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