To move this discussion in a more productive direction... We're getting a 4 year map, we have 4 years to fix this process... Are the FairDistricts people going to sponsor another signature drive to get a ballot measure so the voters can close the loopholes (and eliminate the 4 year map option) before we go through this disgusting process again?  At this point, I care more about making sure this headache never happens again.

 

And yes, I'll be voting for whatever Democratic candidate is running for OH supreme court for O'Conner's seat next year. What the R justices have done to ignore the will of 70% of their voters is despicable.

How close was the Democrats plan to giving them 46% of the seats, as the voters of Ohio divided in the most recent election?  

13 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

The fact that you can’t even conceive that a political party you support may not have pure intentions all the time is laughable

I have no problem acknowledging that there are bad seeds in the Democratic Party, and there are places in this country where Democrats use their political leverage in ways contrary to the will of the people.

 

Neither is particularly relevant to this discussion of Ohio's redistricting.  In the case of Ohio redistricting, the Republicans, and only the Republicans, are choosing to ignore the will of the majority of Ohioans for more competitive and less partisan districts.  Attempting to paint both sides in this issue as "impure" looks like an inability to recognize that the Republican Party has all the power here and is willfully using it to disregard the will of the people of Ohio, and as a result you appear to be endorsing that effort.

15 hours ago, Brutus_buckeye said:

The fact that you can’t even conceive that a political party you support may not have pure intentions all the time is laughable

 

I'm talking about your spelling mistakes and repeated sentences. The fact that you didn't get that is laughable.

6 hours ago, 10albersa said:

To move this discussion in a more productive direction... We're getting a 4 year map, we have 4 years to fix this process... Are the FairDistricts people going to sponsor another signature drive to get a ballot measure so the voters can close the loopholes (and eliminate the 4 year map option) before we go through this disgusting process again?  At this point, I care more about making sure this headache never happens again.

 

And yes, I'll be voting for whatever Democratic candidate is running for OH supreme court for O'Conner's seat next year. What the R justices have done to ignore the will of 70% of their voters is despicable.

 

Jennifer Brunner is running for the seat.

7 hours ago, Foraker said:

I have no problem acknowledging that there are bad seeds in the Democratic Party, and there are places in this country where Democrats use their political leverage in ways contrary to the will of the people.

 

Neither is particularly relevant to this discussion of Ohio's redistricting.  In the case of Ohio redistricting, the Republicans, and only the Republicans, are choosing to ignore the will of the majority of Ohioans for more competitive and less partisan districts.  Attempting to paint both sides in this issue as "impure" looks like an inability to recognize that the Republican Party has all the power here and is willfully using it to disregard the will of the people of Ohio, and as a result you appear to be endorsing that effort.

I fully admit that Republicans bear more responsibility than the dems. That does not mean that the dems are without blame here, only that the bulk of it (not all) lies with Republicans 

Not sure if this has been shared, but this is an interesting map to look at the problem: 

 

https://davesredistricting.org/maps#viewmap::744e3245-b230-48aa-b0ae-ccf9e700654e

 

This seems like a problem with an easy solution.   Give the voters what they want and let them decide on your policy at the polls.  

 

 

On 2/19/2022 at 8:12 PM, Brutus_buckeye said:

I fully admit that Republicans bear more responsibility than the dems. That does not mean that the dems are without blame here, only that the bulk of it (not all) lies with Republicans 

The Ohio Dems have shown up for meetings, they have asked to participate and do their duty -- but they have no power to hold up or delay or move forward since the Repubs are in charge.  Can you explain what the Ohio Dems are responsible for in the matter of Ohio redistricting that you think they should be called out for? 

 

 

Just make it proportional.   Change the state constitution.  I'm sick of being cheated out of my vote by these clowns. 

On 2/19/2022 at 7:41 AM, 10albersa said:

To move this discussion in a more productive direction... We're getting a 4 year map, we have 4 years to fix this process... Are the FairDistricts people going to sponsor another signature drive to get a ballot measure so the voters can close the loopholes (and eliminate the 4 year map option) before we go through this disgusting process again?  At this point, I care more about making sure this headache never happens again.

 

And yes, I'll be voting for whatever Democratic candidate is running for OH supreme court for O'Conner's seat next year. What the R justices have done to ignore the will of 70% of their voters is despicable.

 

This is becoming an example of why I dislike the initiative process as a means for amending the state Constitution, even though it would be an easy way to clean up the dog's breakfast that is DeRolph.  The state smoking ban was a better example.  At least legislatures usually give some thought about how their whims are to be implemented and are better at seeing through deceptive language.   Or adding it, but that works both ways....

5 hours ago, Cleburger said:

Just make it proportional.   Change the state constitution.  I'm sick of being cheated out of my vote by these clowns. 

 

The Voting Rights Act lawsuit would be immediate.

42 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

This is becoming an example of why I dislike the initiative process as a means for amending the state Constitution, even though it would be an easy way to clean up the dog's breakfast that is DeRolph.  The state smoking ban was a better example.  At least legislatures usually give some thought about how their whims are to be implemented and are better at seeing through deceptive language.   Or adding it, but that works both ways....

Redistricting reform in Ohio WAS by the legislature and that is why it is so f’d up.  The initiative process in Ohio has two phases.  In the first, the petitioner collects signatures to get an issue under consideration. If they get enough signatures, the legislature is required to take up the issue and attempt to draft legislation. Once they do that, the petitioner has the option of accepting that legislation as written by the legislature, or doing another round of signature gathering to get their own version onto the ballot. When the Ohio legislature wrote their version of redistricting, the people leading the ballot initiative weren’t super thrilled with how it was written, but they compromised and accepted the bill, recognizing that another round of signature gathering was expensive and risky. In hindsight I’m sure they very much regret that decision, but at the time it was understandable. I’m not exactly remembering why the Ohio legislature’s version then had to be voted on - perhaps because it was an Ohio Constitutional amendment? I’m glad it did get voted on, because it showed how overwhelmingly Ohioans wanted this change. (71% in favor of the amendment!)
 

For comparison, Ohio legislative leadership is refusing to take up the marijuana reform bill. So the petitioners will now have to do another round of signature gathering specific to the amendment language. 
 

It’s a screwed up process, but at least we have it.  Many states don’t. It’s also why voting rights protection is so critical - when legislators use legalized gerrymandering to pick their own constituents, there is little hope in using small-d democratic methods to enact the will of the people. Which is especially ironic considering what we Ohioans voted on in this instance, and why. 

3 hours ago, E Rocc said:

 

The Voting Rights Act lawsuit would be immediate.

 

You could still have districts that provide for majority minority districts where candidates are decided via primary. Just distribute the winning seats to the candidates of each party that get the highest percent of votes in their district proportional to the percentage of statewide popular vote. It would eliminate the desire to gerrymander, and make it a formality that would err on the compact side only.

The Republicans in the legislature are now considering impeaching the Republican Chief Justice Maureen O'Connor because she won't let them violate the constitution.

 

I'm sure we'll hear a lot of opposition to this from the Republicans on this board.

2 hours ago, ryanlammi said:

 

You could still have districts that provide for majority minority districts where candidates are decided via primary. Just distribute the winning seats to the candidates of each party that get the highest percent of votes in their district proportional to the percentage of statewide popular vote. It would eliminate the desire to gerrymander, and make it a formality that would err on the compact side only.

 

"At large" used to be a trick to avoid minority representation in city councils, so it's seen as suspect.   The thing is, considering living and voting patterns I don't see how you could come up with a "majority minority" district that is less than 70% Democratic.   Which of course makes the others more Republican.

1 minute ago, E Rocc said:

"At large" used to be a trick to avoid minority representation in city councils, so it's seen as suspect.  

 

Never suggested 15 at large seats. Still have districts like now, but distribute winners of each race based on statewide vote until you have a representative sample of the total electorate of the state.

Ohio voted 42.55% for Democrats in 2020. 42.55% of the 16 seats is 6.8 seats. Give the Dems 6 seats and give the Republicans the remaining 10.

 

Top 6 performing Democrats are elected to Congress, the remaining seats go to the top 10 performing Republicans.

56 minutes ago, ryanlammi said:

Ohio voted 42.55% for Democrats in 2020. 42.55% of the 16 seats is 6.8 seats. Give the Dems 6 seats and give the Republicans the remaining 10.

 

Top 6 performing Democrats are elected to Congress, the remaining seats go to the top 10 performing Republicans.

 

Are you going to save two of those Democratic seats for black candidates?  Because that is what reflects the percentage of the state and that is what happens now.

2 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Are you going to save two of those Democratic seats for black candidates?  Because that is what reflects the percentage of the state and that is what happens now.

That may be the effect of majority minority districts but that's not the point of the VRA. If we were to get rid of districts entirely to distribute representatives proportionally it would not obviously violate the VRA because minority political power wouldn't be intentionally diluted through gerrymandering efforts of the state legislature. 

 

Arguably minority voices would be more represented because it would be a live possibility that a third party wins representation in a proportional system. 

2 minutes ago, Luke_S said:

That may be the effect of majority minority districts but that's not the point of the VRA. If we were to get rid of districts entirely to distribute representatives proportionally it would not obviously violate the VRA because minority political power wouldn't be intentionally diluted through gerrymandering efforts of the state legislature. 

 

Arguably minority voices would be more represented because it would be a live possibility that a third party wins representation in a proportional system. 

Especially if we moved to a ranked choice system along with proportion representation 

21 minutes ago, E Rocc said:

 

Are you going to save two of those Democratic seats for black candidates?  Because that is what reflects the percentage of the state and that is what happens now.

 

I don't think you're reading my posts at all, but I'll spell it out again.

 

1 hour ago, ryanlammi said:

Still have districts like now, but distribute winners of each race based on statewide vote until you have a representative sample of the total electorate of the state.

...

Top 6 performing Democrats are elected to Congress, the remaining seats go to the top 10 performing Republicans.

 

The top performing Democrats are going to be concentrated in the cities, where the highest likelihood of majority minority electorate exists.

12 minutes ago, freefourur said:

Especially if we moved to a ranked choice system along with proportion representation 

Would very much be in favor of ranked choice voting for US Senate elections. 

 

Would also be in favor of distributing Ohio's electoral college votes proportionally, though would take ranked choice here too. 

Wow, they really want to instigate political violence by anyone who is now allowed to carry guns...

 

 

 

What just occurred is disgusting. I’m literally sick to my stomach.

So am I. I'm so furious, I don't know how these a-holes can be stopped without resorting to violence. Please tell me what the peaceful alternative is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

@KJPWhat we are doing using civil means is working. The maps Republicans have been making are no worse than the current maps. But for voter action, you wouldn’t be hearing about this issue. But the constitutional amendments we made are getting in the Republicans’ way. Democratic justices we elected are getting in the way. The Supreme Court will not uphold this map. It’s so transparently a violation of their order. The main reason Republicans pulled this stunt is they were afraid the independent mapmakers map would be finished in time.  Next go round it probably will be. And if it’s not, if Rs find some new way to screw this all up, what we can do is inform people about the abuses of power going on in simple terms. The voters will know what’s going on is wrong. We just need to work to get them the facts so that they understand who is at fault.

 

Violence will accomplish nothing. Headlines that say “mapmaking process disrupted by rioters” would just play into Republicans’ hands.

Hope you're right. And I agree that rioting won't accomplish anything. 

@LlamaLawyer, on board with not using violence. But you end with informed voters knowing this is wrong, while I don't necessarily disagree I'm not at all convinced that voters' disgust with this process will outweigh partisanship. And if it does on the margins, Republicans have effectively insulated themselves from electoral repercussions through this gerrymandering exercise. 

 

And they are truly breaking the system. We couldn't recall these elected officials, they've ensured they'd beat any challenge in their safe districts. They can't be impeached, they have a supermajority. 

 

Is there any standing for citizens to bring suits against Republican members of the redistricting commission for violating our constitutional rights to a fair redistricting process? That seems the only avenue left and it would be a longshot...

 

4 hours ago, Luke_S said:

@LlamaLawyer, on board with not using violence. But you end with informed voters knowing this is wrong, while I don't necessarily disagree I'm not at all convinced that voters' disgust with this process will outweigh partisanship. And if it does on the margins, Republicans have effectively insulated themselves from electoral repercussions through this gerrymandering exercise. 

 

And they are truly breaking the system. We couldn't recall these elected officials, they've ensured they'd beat any challenge in their safe districts. They can't be impeached, they have a supermajority. 

 

Is there any standing for citizens to bring suits against Republican members of the redistricting commission for violating our constitutional rights to a fair redistricting process? That seems the only avenue left and it would be a longshot...

What if we convinced 100,000 Ohios to march on Columbus?  

5 hours ago, Luke_S said:

@LlamaLawyer, on board with not using violence. But you end with informed voters knowing this is wrong, while I don't necessarily disagree I'm not at all convinced that voters' disgust with this process will outweigh partisanship. And if it does on the margins, Republicans have effectively insulated themselves from electoral repercussions through this gerrymandering exercise. 

 

And they are truly breaking the system. We couldn't recall these elected officials, they've ensured they'd beat any challenge in their safe districts. They can't be impeached, they have a supermajority. 

 

Is there any standing for citizens to bring suits against Republican members of the redistricting commission for violating our constitutional rights to a fair redistricting process? That seems the only avenue left and it would be a longshot...

There already is a suit against the redistricting commission. That's why this has gone before the Supreme Court several times and why it will again. It's not remotely a longshot. To the contrary, the Supreme Court is basically guaranteed to strike down this map, as they have previous maps. Then the commission will meet again, and this time there's a better chance of the mapdrawers being able to finish the job because of how close to completion they've already come. So as frustrating as this is, I still give us a better than 50% chance of ending up with pretty decent state legislative maps.*

 

As far as the informed voters issue--

 

At the end of the day, it's an issue of whether we are a people capable of self government. There's a good book by Tom Nichols called "Our Own Worst Enemy" that discusses these challenges.

 

If we can't make the people of Ohio understand what's going on, then we can't avoid this problem. If we can't avoid this problem, we won't have representative districts. It is within the realm of possibility that our culture has declined to a point where we are unable to sustain a functioning democracy. If that's the case, there is no solution--violent, peaceful, otherwise it can't save us unless we have the basic civil character required to sustain a democracy. Hopefully that's not where we are, but it is a real, non-remote possibility.

 

*I just want to be clear there is a separate issue of the congressional map, which sometimes gets mixed up in the discussion. The congressional map is far less likely ultimately to get struck down for a number of reasons.

I think it's time to have the Ohio Supreme Court hold these childish bullies in contempt of court. I hate to say it, but you're right @LlamaLawyer. America's sabotaged public educational system and our selfish, quick-fix culture has reached to a point where we are unable to sustain a functioning democracy.

 

 

14 minutes ago, KJP said:

I think it's time to have the Ohio Supreme Court hold these childish bullies in contempt of court. I hate to say it, but you're right @LlamaLawyer. America's sabotaged public educational system and our selfish, quick-fix culture has reached to a point where we are unable to sustain a functioning democracy.

 

 

I agree with you, although to be clear I'm still couching it in terms of "might." I am not sure we're there yet. I hold out hope that there will be a wake up call that makes citizens act like citizens again. But it's just hope, not certainty.

13 minutes ago, LlamaLawyer said:

There already is a suit against the redistricting commission. That's why this has gone before the Supreme Court several times and why it will again. It's not remotely a longshot. To the contrary, the Supreme Court is basically guaranteed to strike down this map, as they have previous maps. Then the commission will meet again, and this time there's a better chance of the mapdrawers being able to finish the job because of how close to completion they've already come. So as frustrating as this is, I still give us a better than 50% chance of ending up with pretty decent state legislative maps.*

 

As far as the informed voters issue--

 

At the end of the day, it's an issue of whether we are a people capable of self government. There's a good book by Tom Nichols called "Our Own Worst Enemy" that discusses these challenges.

 

If we can't make the people of Ohio understand what's going on, then we can't avoid this problem. If we can't avoid this problem, we won't have representative districts. It is within the realm of possibility that our culture has declined to a point where we are unable to sustain a functioning democracy. If that's the case, there is no solution--violent, peaceful, otherwise it can't save us unless we have the basic civil character required to sustain a democracy. Hopefully that's not where we are, but it is a real, non-remote possibility.

 

*I just want to be clear there is a separate issue of the congressional map, which sometimes gets mixed up in the discussion. The congressional map is far less likely ultimately to get struck down for a number of reasons.

 

Appreciate the detailed response, I am aware of the suits against the commission, but I mean bring a suit forward against the individual actors to hold them individually accountable--removal from leadership, committee assignments, or public service altogether. That's what I think would be the longshot, if is even possible. 

 

I get this may open a Pandora's box of citizens suing individual lawmakers, but there's not much left when all other means of accountability are effectively neutralized. 

 

Refreshing to see all of the moderate, sensible Republicans up in arms about this controversy.

 

https://twitter.com/OhioCapJournal/status/1509985860279803904?t=ASQLNS1uCpCwyilNi2xRow&s=19

Want to know what the end of democracy looks like?

 

 

All efforts must be focused on destroying these corrupt fascists

 

 

I'm glad she's following the law. If you're trying to appease a political party rather than follow the law, then you are already lost. And certainly don't ask others to follow you in your wanderings from the path of democracy.

 

The Republican judge blocking her party from rigging electoral districts

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/apr/12/ohio-republican-judge-blocking-party-from-distorting-electoral-districts

EDIT: Apologies, wrong thread, hard to keep track which is which. Mods please move to Ohio General Assembly.

Edited April 14, 20223 yr by Dev

I've been posting gerrymandering stuff here. I came here to post this another view of the same story....

 

 

10 minutes ago, Dev said:

EDIT: Apologies, wrong thread, hard to keep track which is which. Mods please move to Ohio General Assembly.

I suspect the mods don’t have time to be moving our incorrectly filed posts around. There is also the option of the original poster simply copying it into the correct thread. Premium members can even delete the miss-post once done. 

16 minutes ago, Boomerang_Brian said:

I suspect the mods don’t have time to be moving our incorrectly filed posts around. There is also the option of the original poster simply copying it into the correct thread. Premium members can even delete the miss-post once done. 

Yes, I am aware of how to quote posts from other threads but didn't want to inadvertently split the discussion.

 

 

I could be wrong but it’s like DeWine has shifted further right recently and I think that is because he is having to to keep his party happy. I feel like he fought his entire party during COVID now he is having to play nice to keep the election. This is why I feel like in this gerrymandering instance he keeps going along with it.

This is just one arrogant tweet by Rep. Seitz in this thread. The others are equally as awful...

 

 

I called that guys office because his whole timeline is awful. Ended up getting into a debate with his stooge Levi Gross.