April 30, 201213 yr (I'm lazy) Does the garage go all the way to E. 9th? Any retail frontage? No on both. This new garage goes no further east than the existing City Hall garage. The precise alignment of this new deck with the City Hall deck tells me the city did that to create a development site all along East 9th here. BTW: I found this data interesting....... Ohio fact sheets on ridership at each station and a few of their largest contracts with Ohio businesses are shown at: http://www.amtrak.com/servlet/ContentServer?c=Page&pagename=am%2FLayout&cid=1246041980432 Lake Shore Limited (CHI-NYC/BOS) -- total FY2011 ridership: 387,043 Capitol Limited (CHI-WDC) -- total FY2011 ridership: 226,597 TOTAL FY2011 ridership on Amtrak trains through Cleveland: 613,640 SOURCE: http://tinyurl.com/4x8cpjj By Comparison: Cleveland-Hopkins International Airport -- number of enplanements: 4,704,329 Akron-Canton Regional Airport -- number of enplanements: 715,367 Erie International Airport -- number of enplanements: 126,778 Toledo Express Airport -- number of enplanements: 93,669 Youngstown-Warren Regional Airport -- number of enplanements: 17,391 SOURCES: http://www.ranker.com/list/all-ohio-airports/american-airports http://www.erievitalsigns.org/view_enplanements.html KJP, those are kind of misleading stats. Boarding traffic from Cleveland Amtrak was 46,416. Granted this was middle of the night activity and I'm sure that if it were available during a more convenient time you could more than triple that amount. Also, it has been stated elsewhere that traffic at CLE is roughly 70% O&D, so about 3,200,000 was local. This is a more useful number to compare than the amount of passengers that passed through Cleveland on Amtrak. As after all there most likely isn't any layover happen at the Amtrak station.
April 30, 201213 yr Understood. Except that I'm not comparing boardings with boardings. I'm comparing Amtrak travel with something most people can relate to (ie: airport enplanements) in order to provide some sense of scale. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
April 30, 201213 yr ^ True, but I would think that most people will view enplanements as boardings at a specific destinations. This is one of the more impossible things to analyze across transportation modes. What I find more interesting is that both sets of service increased overall ridership (a 3.5% gain for the Capitol and a 6.2% gain for the Lake Shore). More amazing, Ohio increased ridership across the board with no state support and terrible timing of departures.
April 30, 201213 yr Ridership has been increasing for some time. You may be even more surprised to learn that Amtrak has broken ridership records almost every year since 2004 or 2005 (except for a slip backward in 2009). Amtrak is carrying more intercity rail travelers than at any time in nearly 50 years, and is covering 85 percent of its costs by fares. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 14, 201213 yr The TIGER IV grant award announcements are "overdue." While there is no required date for announcing them, I was told by a Cleveland city official three weeks ago that the grant awards could be announced in two weeks. So now it's day-to-day...... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 14, 201213 yr Fingers crossed X l li https://www.instagram.com/cle_and_beyond/https://www.instagram.com/jbkaufer/
July 6, 201212 yr Although the news was reported elsewhere on this forum a couple weeks ago, it wasn't reported here.... The city's TIGER IV request wasn't funded (as most weren't nationwide). But city officials tell me they will re-apply in 2013 with what should be a stronger application. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 2, 201212 yr If the port authority levy passes, the city would tap $20 million in port authority funds for this, adding to $26 million in city funds and $4.25 million in Amtrak funds...... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 2, 201212 yr Whats the chances of this thing passing? Chances don't matter. Just do you your part and vote. Then we can take on whatever comes next. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 2, 201212 yr KJP, is that the latest and greatest (and final) plan, or is it just a kind of massing? IS that Civic Plaza going to be elevated?
October 2, 201212 yr Ive been already clearing up many misconceptions. Its being painted as a "470% increase in an already overtaxed region", but that is on top of almost nothing. The port levy would increase taxes from $3.50 to $20.00 for every 100,000 in assessed value, but keep in mind this is assessed value and most people in Cuyahoga county have an assessed value well below $100,000. So the majority of people would see an increase of $5 to $10 a year (I think a small price to pay). I wonder where in the F the city would come up with 26 million!!! They need to keep trying for Fed funds for this though.. With the potential sources of match the chances of getting a chunk of Fed $$$ would be much better.
October 2, 201212 yr If the port authority levy passes, the city would tap $20 million in port authority funds for this, adding to $26 million in city funds and $4.25 million in Amtrak funds...... Is that new labeling? I don't recall seeing the "New Amtrak Station" component in the TIGER Grant submission. They originally had it left as is. Not sure if MMPI's latest comments about the current station are impacting the design.
October 2, 201212 yr KJP, is that the latest and greatest (and final) plan, or is it just a kind of massing? IS that Civic Plaza going to be elevated? It's just a massing, and that Civic Plaza is elevated atop the parking facility. It's far from being a final plan because the city rushed that plan to get in line for TIGER grants for which the city is no longer eligible due to changes in federal law. The Amtrak and the city continue to be in discussions on how to best incorporate its station into this facility. The current Amtrak station is located on city-owned land for which Amtrak has never paid any rent, and the city is trying to use that as leverage to get them off that developable land and into the new multimodal center. The discussions have involved inserting the Amtrak station into the parking structure. To my knowledge, there have been little or no discussions with GCRTA on how their bus/rail customers can make the best use of this new facility. I believe most of the city's $26 million contribution would come from a bond issue funded by parking and lease revenues from the multimodal center. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 2, 201212 yr Not sure if MMPI's latest comments about the current station are impacting the design. What comments?
October 2, 201212 yr Not sure if MMPI's latest comments about the current station are impacting the design. What comments? This.... Cuyahoga County wants to hide Amtrak station from convention center view Published: Wednesday, August 29, 2012, 8:00 AM By Laura Johnston, The Plain Dealer The Plain Dealer CLEVELAND, Ohio — Cleveland's downtown Amtrak station is so ugly that Cuyahoga County wants to hide it from visitors to its grand new convention center. "The Amtrak station is an unsightly obstruction," said Jeff Appelbaum, the county's point man for the $465 million medical mart and convention center under construction on the downtown bluff overlooking the tracks. The squat brown, 36-year-old building sits center stage in the vista from the convention center's floor-to-ceiling ballroom windows. So the county has hired a landscape architect to make suggestions -- possibly blocking the station -- before the convention center opens next July. READ MORE AT: http://www.cleveland.com/cuyahoga-county/index.ssf/2012/08/cuyahoga_county_wants_to_hide_amtrak_station_from_convention_center_view.html "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 2, 201212 yr Thanks. I guess nothing said there is untrue, but I'm aghast that they're only just now addressing the rail situation... and their first thought is to address it with shrubbery. NCTC should have been integral to the MM/CC project in the first place. But getting it done thru the port authority would make me very happy.
October 2, 201212 yr Tiger funds are not the only Fed funds that could contribute to this project. I'm well aware. A big reason why the city's TIGER application was denied is because the city's planning isn't advanced far enough to be eligible under NEPA for any federal funds. They hadn't yet completed PE, let alone conducted an EIS or received a FONSI. And if you understood all those acronyms, then you've also been involved in this federal funding game for too long.... :) That's why the port authority financing looks so attractive. I encourage my clients to avoid federal funding wherever possible, and port authorities are a good alternative -- especially with interest rates so low these days. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
October 2, 201212 yr I just look at it as Cleveland doesnt often get its fair share of federal funding, so Im always looking for ways to ease the local burden so there can be more $$$ for other projects. True it isnt always worth the hoops that you have to jump through as well as the added time thit it usually adds to a project if therre are viable alternatives.
October 2, 201212 yr If the port authority levy passes, the city would tap $20 million in port authority funds for this, adding to $26 million in city funds and $4.25 million in Amtrak funds...... Parking? Really? I wonder if its feasible to add a hotel or apartment complex on top of this. Parking in that area is one thing that is not needed.
October 2, 201212 yr If the port authority levy passes, the city would tap $20 million in port authority funds for this, adding to $26 million in city funds and $4.25 million in Amtrak funds...... Parking? Really? I wonder if its feasible to add a hotel or apartment complex on top of this. Parking in that area is one thing that is not needed. If the long term vision of the lakefront is to be realize we're going to need a lot more, newer parking options. No more surface lots - I hope. Best to incorporate parking with the hotels/apartments you've suggested.
October 3, 201212 yr If the port authority levy passes, the city would tap $20 million in port authority funds for this, adding to $26 million in city funds and $4.25 million in Amtrak funds...... Parking? Really? I wonder if its feasible to add a hotel or apartment complex on top of this. Parking in that area is one thing that is not needed. If the long term vision of the lakefront is to be realize we're going to need a lot more, newer parking options. No more surface lots - I hope. Best to incorporate parking with the hotels/apartments you've suggested. Why can't we connect the lakefront by building rail stations into the plan? I know that makes too much sense and in reality, it is what it is, but parking is never a solution.
October 3, 201212 yr If the port authority levy passes, the city would tap $20 million in port authority funds for this, adding to $26 million in city funds and $4.25 million in Amtrak funds...... Parking? Really? I wonder if its feasible to add a hotel or apartment complex on top of this. Parking in that area is one thing that is not needed. If the long term vision of the lakefront is to be realize we're going to need a lot more, newer parking options. No more surface lots - I hope. Best to incorporate parking with the hotels/apartments you've suggested. Why can't we connect the lakefront by building rail stations into the plan? I know that makes too much sense and in reality, it is what it is, but parking is never a solution. Oh I'm in full agreement with you. I just think the best thing for the lakefront is to get as many people down there asap. I think a rail station connector to the waterfront is a tremendous idea. But ample, hidden-away parking should be a big component to the overall plan.
October 3, 201212 yr Yes. Until our transit situation radically changes, parking will be an important part of everything.
October 3, 201212 yr Also, don't forget the stink that the PD made about there being no connecting parking to the MM/CC. I believe the way the bridge is laid out this would be mostly covered parking right into the Ballroom area, could be wrong about the connection to the mall though.
November 7, 201212 yr Local officials will have to keep looking for the unfunded $20 million for the $50 million lakefront multi-modal transportation center after the port authority levy failed yesterday..... http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,1795.msg648903.html#msg648903 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 9, 201311 yr My bad. This thread has not been kept up to date. Since the last post, the city's third attempt at securing a federal TIGER (Transportation Investment Generating Economic Recovery) grant was denied. The city is seeking alternative funding sources, including private, foundation or possibly other federal funds. All Aboard Ohio believes this "Lakefront Multimodal Transportation Center" would become more than just two walkways emanating from a parking garage if the following elements were added. Yes, it would increase the cost, but the proposed rail features to ease rail freight and passenger traffic congestion, upgrade port access trackage and free up a well-connected development site which should make it more palatable to the Obama Administration which is touting true modal-mixer projects such as this.... I support the lakefront transportation center, especially if we can get the collar-county bus services (Akron Metro, PARTA, SARTA, Laketrans etc) as well as Greyhound and Megabus in there because it will unite all the regional and intercity transportation modes (rail and bus) in one place to enhance mobility through simplified interconnectivity. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 9, 201311 yr I support the lakefront transportation center, especially if we can get the collar-county bus services (Akron Metro, PARTA, SARTA, Laketrans etc) as well as Greyhound and Megabus in there because it will unite all the regional and intercity transportation modes (rail and bus) in one place to enhance mobility through simplified interconnectivity. ^ This! That's the kind of infrastructure (and potential spinoff) that can connect the lakefront, and makes the gerbil tube bridge option a short-sighted proposition. The walkways are needed to defeat Hadrian's Wall along the south side of the tracks. Otherwise, you cannot walk south into the city. You have to walk through some inhospitable pedestrian settings. Walking to West 3rd is virtually impossible. The only option is to take the long way around via East 9th. That means hiking up a freeway entrance ramp and then through a windswept, brutalist environment of dead plazas, concrete and glass walls and no walk-in cafes or shops or anywhere else to take refuge from the wind which was measured stronger here than in any place in Chicago. The walkway directly south will enter into the warm interior of the convention center and take you directly to the convention center hotel which is in the heart of the central business district, near other hotels, restaurants and office buildings. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
November 9, 201311 yr I support the lakefront transportation center, especially if we can get the collar-county bus services (Akron Metro, PARTA, SARTA, Laketrans etc) as well as Greyhound and Megabus in there because it will unite all the regional and intercity transportation modes (rail and bus) in one place to enhance mobility through simplified interconnectivity. ^ This! That's the kind of infrastructure (and potential spinoff) that can connect the lakefront, and makes the gerbil tube bridge option a short-sighted proposition. The walkways are needed to defeat Hadrian's Wall along the south side of the tracks. Otherwise, you cannot walk south into the city. You have to walk through some inhospitable pedestrian settings. Walking to West 3rd is virtually impossible. The only option is to take the long way around via East 9th. That means hiking up a freeway entrance ramp and then through a windswept, brutalist environment of dead plazas, concrete and glass walls and no walk-in cafes or shops or anywhere else to take refuge from the wind which was measured stronger here than in any place in Chicago. The walkway directly south will enter into the warm interior of the convention center and take you directly to the convention center hotel which is in the heart of the central business district, near other hotels, restaurants and office buildings. Oh I know that a connection is needed. I just want to see something more substantial than the "gerbil tube." A well-designed transportation center could provide indoor travel in a much better environment; with much more varying degrees for spinoff development.
January 17, 201411 yr FYI..... State funds sought for pedestrian bridge. Greater Cleveland Partnership seeks $20.3 million in state money for capital projects By JAY MILLER The Greater Cleveland Partnership will ask the Kasich administration and the General Assembly to come up with $20.3 million to help finance $210 million in regional development. Several of the projects GCP hopes will be included in the state's biennial capital spending budget are designed to enhance public use of the Lake Erie and Cuyahoga River waterfronts in Cleveland and its suburbs. At the top of the regional chamber of commerce's list for inclusion in the capital budget is $7 million for the long-sought pedestrian bridge to connect the area of the new Cleveland Convention Center to the lakefront. All the recommended projects will require more public money and, in some cases, private or foundation dollars. In the case of the lakefront bridge, the city of Cleveland and Cuyahoga County each have pledged $10 million to the project. More at: http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20140115/FREE/140119866?template=mobile&X-IgnoreUserAgent=1 "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 25, 201411 yr What improved trackage for accommodating up to two Amtrak trains in the Lakefront station at the same time can also do for improving rail freight access to/from the Port of Cleveland...... "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 25, 201411 yr I think many of the GCP’s requested items are very worthy, especially affordable housing and community health center development in Cleveland’s low and moderate income neighborhoods. But in terms of downtown development items, I wish there was some emphasis on greater positive impact items the N. Coast Transportation Center and, maybe, extending CVSR into downtown … not just on expanding public parks and Towpath hiking trails. I’m all about nature and natural areas, but we have abundance of parks, beaches and natural areas in/around Cleveland – it’s one of the City’s true strengths and we need to take care of what we’ve got. But where we need improvement is on is in transportation/transit (the Transportation Center would be a huge boost) and developing residential and retail building density, especially along our lakefront, and not just more open space. As I’ve said before, I don’t think the pedestrian bridge is a bad idea, but I sense it’s largely being built to move people from parking garages in/around Lakeside Ave to the lakefront while ignoring, totally, the rail transit and transportation (Amtrak) facilities that need enhancement and connectivity with the new Convention Center, hotel and potential North Coast office (and hopefully some retail) development.
January 25, 201411 yr As I’ve said before, I don’t think the pedestrian bridge is a bad idea, but I sense it’s largely being built to move people from parking garages in/around Lakeside Ave to the lakefront while ignoring, totally, the rail transit and transportation (Amtrak) facilities that need enhancement and connectivity with the new Convention Center, hotel and potential North Coast office (and hopefully some retail) development. I'm hopeful that will change for the better soon. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 27, 201411 yr All Aboard Ohio @AllAboardOhio 4m .@DowntownCLE station w/ @GreyhoundBus @Amtrak @megabus @Laketran @AkronMETROBus @SARTA busy as Akron-Canton Airport! http://freepdfhosting.com/114ffff3b0.pdf "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 27, 201411 yr ^Is that assuming that everyone going to or coming from Cleveland will want to get on/off at that station? Currently most of Laketran's Cleveland busses take a winding route around downtown with multiple stops closer to where people work. METRO, SARTA, and PARTA also have multiple stops in Cleveland including University Circle and multiple stops downtown. I support the idea of a North Coast Transportation Center, but let's be honest, it won't be closer than the current bus stops for a good portion of the current riders.
January 28, 201411 yr ^^ Nice presentation. (And thanks for not calling it "North Coast Transportation Center" -- it must be "Cleveland".) ^Keith--the station could the central CLE drop off---though it doesn't have to preclude those other bus agencies from having more than one stop in CLE (particularly if they're already serving University Circle). However, those companies may like it as it will be faster to get in and out of the city. But for this to work, in addition to RTA Waterfront rail service (which doesn't really serve that much of downtown), the statation would be successful if there were say two or three RTA shuttles that ran every 5-minutes daytime (and say every 15 minutes during 2am-5am) from the station on various routes throughout downtown.
January 28, 201411 yr Most Laketran bus routes travel past the intersection of the Shoreway & East 9th Street, so it would not be a tall request to have them routed through the transportation center as part of their normal routings through downtown. So this would just be an added enroute stop -- but a common stop to all collar-county transit providers. I think a common bus stop location in a sheltered, well-lit environment for collar-county transit riders would greatly simplify things for passengers coming to/from/through downtown Cleveland who otherwise don't know downtown or feel comfortable downtown. To some riders in outlying areas, downtown Cleveland is the "big bad city" so anything that simplifies their trip (such as not hunting for bus stop locations) will improve their mobility choices and boost ridership. I'm pretty familiar with transit services downtown, yet I have no idea where SARTA bus stops are vs. Akron Metro RTA vs. Laketran vs. PARTA stops. I don't want to walk around downtown on a frigid day like today and look for the bus stop signs on poles or check out-of-date Google Streetview images to see where they are/were. I want to know there's one place downtown where EVERYTHING stops to pick/up passengers among its other existing stops downtown. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 28, 201411 yr ^^ Nice presentation. (And thanks for not calling it "North Coast Transportation Center" -- it must be "Cleveland".) ^Keith--the station could the central CLE drop off---though it doesn't have to preclude those other bus agencies from having more then one stop in CLE (particularly if they're already serving University Circle). However, those companies may like it as it will be faster to get in and out of the city. But for this to work, in addition to RTA Waterfront rail service (which doesn't really serve that much of downtown), the statation would be successful if there were say two or three RTA shuttles that ran every 5-minutes daytime (and say every 15 minutes during 2am-5am) from the station on various routes throughout downtown. Thanks, and exactly! But the Waterfront Line also provides the link into the rail system which tends to be more simple for visitors to use than the bus system. At worst, it gets new-arrivals on Greyhound/Amtrak/Megabus etc to Tower City Center and Public Square served by all radial GCRTA routes. BTW, if the Amtrak station is moved into this transportation center, such as with a "glass bubble" attached to the west end of it for ticket counters, waiting room, etc, the existing Amtrak station property (mostly city-owned) can be a very attractive development site for the city. It would certainly be one of the most accessible, and it has a sewer lifting station right there (which building a new one was a big expense for Flats East Bank). "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 28, 201411 yr ^Keith--the station could the central CLE drop off---though it doesn't have to preclude those other bus agencies from having more then one stop in CLE (particularly if they're already serving University Circle).I'm just questioning where the numbers come from. I can't open KJP's link at work to find out. However, those companies may like it as it will be faster to get in and out of the city. They might like having one stop, but their riders won't. A route going downtown has to have at least a couple stops and the north end of the malls isn't exactly central to downtown or its workforce.
January 28, 201411 yr They might like having one stop, but their riders won't. A route going downtown has to have at least a couple stops and the north end of the malls isn't exactly central to downtown or its workforce. The multiple stops downtown for Laketran, Akron Metro, SARTA and PARTA will continue. We seek only an adjustment to their routings to add a stop at a lakefront transportation center so there is a common, easily identifiable transfer point among all collar-county transit services will stop AND where longer-distance transportation is available. Here's an example of what could be done...... Centro riders say new hub in downtown Syracuse beats standing out in the cold http://www.syracuse.com/news/index.ssf/2013/02/centro_riders_say_new_hub_in_d.html VIDEO OF CENTRO TRANSIT HUB IN SYRACUSE http://video-embed.syracuse.com/services/player/bcpid1949044326001?bctid=1822503636001&bckey=AQ~~,AAAAPLpuTok~,Mq6Bf5KTh4CNk04xgb0fhNsE4sqxZ6vz "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 28, 201411 yr What improved trackage for accommodating up to two Amtrak trains in the Lakefront station at the same time can also do for improving rail freight access to/from the Port of Cleveland...... That looks great. I hope someone from the Port Authority sees it and is enthusiastic about working with the city/county/RTA on getting it done.
January 28, 201411 yr KJP--was that presentation given somewhere or only developed as a plan/thought piece?
January 28, 201411 yr The multiple stops downtown for Laketran, Akron Metro, SARTA and PARTA will continue. We seek only an adjustment to their routings to add a stop at a lakefront transportation center so there is a common, easily identifiable transfer point among all collar-county transit services will stop AND where longer-distance transportation is available. I'm with you. I agree with the idea of routing through the center as a centralized station, I was just arguing against the idea of a single station or the assumption that riders would want a single station. Even your proposed revised routing still goes through public square, which is probably still going to have close to as many boardings as a North Coast Transportation Center.
January 28, 201411 yr KJP--was that presentation given somewhere or only developed as a plan/thought piece? It was presented somewhere. I'm with you. I agree with the idea of routing through the center as a centralized station, I was just arguing against the idea of a single station or the assumption that riders would want a single station. Even your proposed revised routing still goes through public square, which is probably still going to have close to as many boardings as a North Coast Transportation Center. I would be just as opposed as you to having a single stop downtown for the collar-county bus services. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 29, 201411 yr I'm with you. I agree with the idea of routing through the center as a centralized station, I was just arguing against the idea of a single station or the assumption that riders would want a single station. Even your proposed revised routing still goes through public square, which is probably still going to have close to as many boardings as a North Coast Transportation Center. This is undoubtedly true, but having a consolidated station like the NCTC that's warm, well-lit, has bathroom facilities etc. could encourage some people to make trips by transit that they wouldn't/couldn't make now, like Akron METRO to Amtrak, or Laketran to Megabus. At worst it would be a wash in terms of ridership, IMO
January 29, 201411 yr I think a common bus stop location in a sheltered, well-lit environment for collar-county transit riders would greatly simplify things for passengers coming to/from/through downtown Cleveland who otherwise don't know downtown or feel comfortable downtown. To some riders in outlying areas, downtown Cleveland is the "big bad city" so anything that simplifies their trip (such as not hunting for bus stop locations) will improve their mobility choices and boost ridership. I'm pretty familiar with transit services downtown, yet I have no idea where SARTA bus stops are vs. Akron Metro RTA vs. Laketran vs. PARTA stops. I don't want to walk around downtown on a frigid day like today and look for the bus stop signs on poles or check out-of-date Google Streetview images to see where they are/were. I want to know there's one place downtown where EVERYTHING stops to pick/up passengers among its other existing stops downtown. I usually agree with you but not on this post. You don't know where those bus stops are because you don't use the service. People who use the service and live in those surrounding counties do know where those stops are and use the one most convenient to them, just like any other transit rider. They arent any different just because they live in a different county. For the most part, the only stops/routes I know are the ones I use. I think this is true for most people. And what suburban resident is afraid of downtown but is completely comfortable with taking a BUS to DOWNTOWN?! There is nothing scary about either but I bet it would be hard to find someone who thinks downtown is a "big bad city" but still goes downtown and takes the bus to do so. And then feel more comfortable to go to a further away station and walk longer distances within the "big bad city" People who use the bus know the stops and look ahead of time. The lakefront station would probably have extremely low use to due to its location.
January 29, 201411 yr Wow. OK, so if you're only catering to those who know you (which is a very small, weekday-repetitive ridership base) how do you tap new markets to grow ridership? How does Laketran or any service expect to survive over the long term if it's catering only to those who already know how to use the service -- and for a very narrow purpose? One of the biggest failings of public transit is that it is a mystery to people who may want to use it but do not. We fear what we do not understand. Simplification efforts like common stations used by multiple transportation service providers helps to de-mystify transit so that it can expand its ridership base, connectivity and functionality. These issues were spelled out in the Northeast Ohio Sustainability Community Consortium's recently released recommendations for an economic growth model for the region. The North Coast Transportation Center or whatever we'll call it is the kind of connectivity tool this region needs more of, rather than continue the silos in which each collar-county transit service now exists. The lakefront station would probably have extremely low use to due to its location. It would not be a bad location if multiple transit routes passed through there, if it were connected to surrounding facilities with walkways, if the city-owned Amtrak station property were the subject of an RFP to prospective developers. All of these are possible with an expanded Lakefront Multimodal Hub. Toronto Union Station (which is also the GO Transit bus and rail hub) was also in a bad location in the 1960s. Now its the centerpiece of a multi-billion, multi-decade redevelopment. Will ours? Who knows. But it won't be unless we make those important baby steps first. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
January 29, 201411 yr You don't know where those bus stops are because you don't use the service. People who use the service and live in those surrounding counties do know where those stops are and use the one most convenient to them, just like any other transit rider. They arent any different just because they live in a different county. For the most part, the only stops/routes I know are the ones I use. I think this is true for most people. And what suburban resident is afraid of downtown but is completely comfortable with taking a BUS to DOWNTOWN?! There is nothing scary about either but I bet it would be hard to find someone who thinks downtown is a "big bad city" but still goes downtown and takes the bus to do so. And then feel more comfortable to go to a further away station and walk longer distances within the "big bad city" People who use the bus know the stops and look ahead of time. The lakefront station would probably have extremely low use to due to its location. I think we agree the location could be better as far as proximity to downtown workers, it'd probably get about 1/4 of the riders from downtown at most. However, a main station (provided it's not the only station) gives people an easy to find location to make it easier for occasional riders and new riders. In addition, the location is close to the stadium, GLSC, and Rock Hall which will generate a significant portion of the occasional riders. Also, the location is still fairly good for the Justice Center and Federal building which have higher than average ridership for downtown workplaces.
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