^This isn't a "cleveland" project.

^ That shouldn't be an issue.

No.  I am just pointing out that CC/MM is a COUNTY project, people often misunderstand that.

 

Obviously the NCTC is a vital project.  And it's one that will also cost a crap ton of money.  It will probably need federal, state, county, and city $.  Unless we somehow pass a bond by vote.  Given that everyone is freaking out already about the speed of the proposed routes, how likely do you think people would be to spend tens of millions of dollars on a train station?  There's a lot of work to be done on this thing, I doubt we'll see anything soon.

^ That shouldn't be an issue.

 

Right.  That should not matter in the least (thats something MTS was saying about the MM/CC project). 

 

Its needs to be Clevelands vision.  Cleveland needs to think of the big picture and how they can tie projects together.  Thats the only way they are going to happen.

Cooperation.

 

 

For historical reference, here's the Amtrak station when it was almost new. It was bright, clean and well kept. Shortly afterward, it became a shared facility with Amtrak and intercity buses, and it went downhill fast. It soon looked more like a typical bus station, grimy, dirty, and stinking of stale tobacco smoke.

 

 

^This isn't a "cleveland" project.

 

Anytime I hear that I want to vomit.  That is a cop-out approach and idea that will get things nowhere. 

The very projects that people are labeling as not a "Cleveland" project, are the ones that arre most important to the city.  How can the city be expected to have no role in projects that are so vital/critical (detrimental if planned and done poorly, but transformational if part of a bigger picture and plan). 

They should be looking at how they can leverage each project to achieve something more.   

 

The city can not take a complacent role in shaping its own future. 

 

but it doesn't change the fact it's a county project.  When it came time for the city to take care of it's end... the sale of the convention center... it happened within a week. "we" can all sit here and say how important it is, and the role the "city" should take, but at the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that the county commissioners are driving the project.  That's one of the many problems you face when your flagship city is geographically the size ours is in the county.

 

for the record, it makes me want to vomit too... but it's the way our government model is foolishly set up.

Good job on NPR this morning, KJP.  The guys in my lab happened to have it on.

Those "new" pictures of the Amtrak station still look like a credit union, one that has a janitor.

Those "new" pictures of the Amtrak station still look like a credit union, one that has a janitor.

 

Haha, that's exactly what I thought as well.

but it doesn't change the fact it's a county project. When it came time for the city to take care of it's end... the sale of the convention center... it happened within a week. "we" can all sit here and say how important it is, and the role the "city" should take, but at the end of the day it doesn't change the fact that the county commissioners are driving the project. That's one of the many problems you face when your flagship city is geographically the size ours is in the county.

 

for the record, it makes me want to vomit too... but it's the way our government model is foolishly set up.

 

I don't know when Clevelanders, both urban and suburban, will wake up to the fact that the way our local governments are set up is EXTREMELY inefficient.  Different topic, however.

 

I wonder what type of funds could be allocated towards the construction of a new train station (besides the feds)?  Does it have to come from the city/county taxpayers, or is there some sort of other solution?  Could the State of Ohio kick in some funds?  How about some of the businesses which call Cleveland home- any chance they would kick in funds (blasphemous, I know)? 

 

I wouldn't want to turn the train station into one giant advertising board, but how about some advertisement funds?  Just trying to get some ideas out there.

 

Seems like the winning design would eliminate the parking behind City Hall and the old County Courthouse.... unless that parking is buried in there somehow.  I wouldn't like that angle because it would make the surface lots in the WHD that much more valuable just at the status quo.

by the way... fwiw, the NCTC originally shown in this thread that there are some plans for, KJP estimated at about $100m.

There are a number of federal funding sources which could be tapped for this, including high-speed rail funds, transit funds, highway funds, housing and urban development funds and more.

 

All of those require a minimum 20 percent non-federal match. So if a basic North Coast Transportation Center would cost $100 million, $20 million of that would have to come from local, county, state and/or private sources.

 

To me, an obvious sponsor of this project is the Cleveland-Cuyahoga County Port Authority. Perhaps it could determine the future lease revenues from this project over 20 years and issue a bond. But even that probably wouldn't be enough to come up with the 20 percent. So other non-federal funding partners would likely be needed.

Could we get some sponsers, sell the naming rights? I don't think KeyBank Station would sound worse than North Coast Transportation Center.

^ KeyBank Station sounds a lot better, I think.

"North Coast" sounds silly and from a national perspective is utterly meaningless. The name should have "Cleveland" in it. The only station i can think of that stands on its own is "Grand Central". (MAYBE "30th Street Station" is known [Philly]). Other than that you need a city name--even NYC's Penn Station which serves all the Amtrak trains (and LIRR and NJ Transit) and is the busiest station in America--can't stand alone as "Penn Station" outside of NY, as there are other "Penn Stations" (e.g., Newark, all built and served by the Pennsylvania RR). It is usually referred to as "NY's Penn station" or "NY Penn Sta". Thus, "north coast...anything" is meaningless. It should be

 

Cleveland Lakefront Station

Cleveland E. 9th Street Station

Cleveland W. 3 St. Station

Cleveland Waterfront Station

Cleveland Harborfront Station

Cleveland Erieside Station

 

Stations should have geographic names. If we MUST name it after someone--it should be someone in Cleveland's history that contributed much to the city's rail history (KJP?) or the new station itself--like the City Manager Hopkins who helped develop Cleveland Muny Airport (now CLE) or Mayor Burke who helped build the airport on the lakefront.

 

That said, i'd go for "Cleveland Key Lakefront Station" (not "KeyBank") if they pay for the full station using the winning design!

 

 

^ Certainly we can come up with something more charming than adding a bank's name to a new station. Seems tacky. There must be something or someone much more noteworthy and deserving to name it after than Key Bank. I agree about the geographic component.

 

 

Those "new" pictures of the Amtrak station still look like a credit union, one that has a janitor.

 

I was in the station recently to pick up my sister who came in from Arizona. The sad thing about the condition of the current station is yet another testament of "slack".... on simple routine maintenance issues that if improved, can make one hell of a difference. While this may not be a "Cleveland" issue and more-so the responsibility of Amtrak (I don't know...does anyone know who's responsibility it is to maintain it?) such a condition STILL reflects on Cleveland. There are simple things like a fresh paint job, some thick landscaping in the earth beds at the entrance....washing the windows, and entrance walkways, better floor maintenance inside, getting rid of the stinky smoke smell...and adding some updated decor or features--as the same ones have been there since '76---and while that may be ok if they had been maintained well---or we are trying to go retro......  in this case, such is NOT the case and it simply looks like it has not been well maintained through the years. The lack of regard on this, I see no reason why, would not cary over to a larger station. So, we have a large beautiful station, ultimately poorly maintained. Again, it is about fostering a better civic pride philosophy in our area that can master the small before they take on the grand. I wrote several times to Amtrak and no reply. I also wrote to my councilman. Still, the station lacks the basics.....has for a long time, and I really don't want to have this blamed on the economy right now.

 

As for the new vision of a station, obviously the city and county government (poorly as it may be modeled right now) need to work together on it and get on the same page because ultimately our decisions we make as separate entities, in the end, all intertwine and affect every piece of the puzzel...and ultimately the WHOLE that we call Geater Cleveland--in what is basically an economic "eco-system" whereby we pluck one strand of the web, we then effect the whole. Its about learning what is done to the whole when we timker with its parts. Instead, we have been used to years of having everyone who is ultimately in the same boat fighting for one oar. Its amazing what imaginary lines can do!

 

 

 

Yeah lets build anyone of those renderings, that would be amazing. I kind of wish that the idea of the MM on the mall location could have played out a little bit more. I know that is not a popular opinion but I thought it would have been a realistic shot at building a stronger case for the transportation center. Although not on the scale of the design competition it would have been interesting to see what might have been proposed. Much like the PublicSquare design concepts I hope these dont just collect dust as so many renderings in this town have. We can get these done!

"XYZ Station at the North Coast Transportation Center"

http://www.clevelandcompetition.com/gallery-09.html

 

 

This is not going to happen for one reason.  Step back with me.  One of the main reasons for wanting to locate the new mmpi and convention center on the mall was connectivity with the lake.  Is was presumed that with the 3C going in at the lake front that these projects would be coordinated and integrated.  A good mayor would make this a priority as it is a once in a century opportunity.  With Mayor prosperity at the helm we can't even integrate the Public Auditorium into MMPI.  The existing connectivity is going to be separated! He is weak, weak, weak and entirely lacking in vision.  If Mike White were mayor this would happen.  Hell, even Jane Campbell (sp?) would make this happen.  With our current mayor it definitely will not.  Mark my words. 

This is not going to happen for one reason. Step back with me. One of the main reasons ...

 

This forum is not the place for pointless, cynical, hostile remarks intended to start arguments, nor is it the place for political attacks. Please keep a lid on your emotions. If that post generates a tit-for-tat that pollutes the thread with useless arguing, I will delete the post and everything that springs from it.

Rather than everyone saying they like #1 or #5 designs,  explain the ideas that you like in the designs.  I don't think hardly any of the designs are very realistic under $1billion let alone a half billion.  I'm guessing the point of the design contest is to be able to extract the best of the ideas to mash into a bunch of great ideas..

 

I personally like the aspects of the interior design of #1 with the very sick awesome view of the Rock Hall and GLSC in the background.  The other aspect I liked about the first design was just the interesting bridge over the tracks.  The 3rd design I liked the cross angled sidewalks and the platforms down to also crossing over the tracks to get to the lake.  I didn't study some of the designs much since it just looked like they were playing with circles and shapes and weren't focused on realistic solutions.

I personally like the aspects of the interior design of #1 with the very sick view of the Rock Hall and GLSC in the background. 

 

OK, is sick in this instance "good"? :)

 

 

Sick, when used by someone under 30 (generally), has a positive connotation unless being used to describe an individual's behavior or state of health.

 

 

Kind of like "bad" was good in the 1970s?  :wink:

I agree with tedolph.  But keep in mind that MMPI itself has no interest in hooking up to any train station.  I'm just hoping Cuyahoga County 2.0 will force the issue early in 2011.

I like that! Cuyahoga County 2.0... awesome!

^Maybe not, new updates are always buggy :-D

Look, all I am trying to say is that for there to be connectivity between MMPI and the potential North Coast Transportation Center someone is going to have to knock some heads with the people from Chicago, break some coconuts, do some arm twisting, threatenting and bluffing. 

 

Can I say that much? Is that off topic?

 

Also, I note that on this thread, the vehement criticisms of the county commissioners was allowed.  But similar criticism of the His Honor is not. 

 

Why the double standard?

The MM/CC and NCTC are not directly related and, as they say in the planning world, are projects of independent utility. That being said, Jackson's administration recognize that the MM/CC and NCTC would increase the other's utility. Another planning term: they are synergistic! So Mayor Jackson staff is tying to find funding to advance the NCTC's planning to the preliminary engineering phase so federal construction dollars can be secured.

also, there's a big difference between MMPI not being involved in the NCTC and being against it.  They would very much welcome it.  It's just not part of their scope or budget.

Tedolph I think your pretty much right on about the problems with the missed oportunities. 

 

The MM/CC and NCTC are not directly related and, as they say in the planning world, are projects of independent utility. That being said, Jackson's administration recognize that the MM/CC and NCTC would increase the other's utility. Another planning term: they are synergistic! So Mayor Jackson staff is tying to find funding to advance the NCTC's planning to the preliminary engineering phase so federal construction dollars can be secured.

Yeah, we were throwing around those terms on the previous page, but I was unaware that the city was doing anything to move anything forward.  If what you say is true, then.... good, maybe it wont a totally lost opportunity after all...?  except, well never mind, it would just be good to know something (anything) from Frank, but he clearly doesnt know what to say.... 

Unless something has changed, MMPI is definitively uninterested in it.  I was there when Falanga said they weren't even putting a door on the front of the place because, in his view, convention goers don't want to use rail.

Unless something has changed, MMPI is definitively uninterested in it.  I was there when Falanga said they weren't even putting a door on the front of the place because, in his view, convention goers don't want to use rail.

 

Well I think its rather obvious (by the small issues) that they have not been approached about the possibility of being part of a larger vision (which is quite a bit more than just being connected to the rail station) thus they are only looking at their own scope.  Thats where the local leadership should be coming in.  They are the ones that need to sell the larger vision that in the end would benefit everyone. 

Tedolph I think your pretty much right on about the problems with the missed oportunities.

 

The MM/CC and NCTC are not directly related and, as they say in the planning world, are projects of independent utility. That being said, Jackson's administration recognize that the MM/CC and NCTC would increase the other's utility. Another planning term: they are synergistic! So Mayor Jackson staff is tying to find funding to advance the NCTC's planning to the preliminary engineering phase so federal construction dollars can be secured.

Yeah, we were throwing around those terms on the previous page, but I was unaware that the city was doing anything to move anything forward. If what you say is true, then.... good, maybe it wont a totally lost opportunity after all...? except, well never mind, it would just be good to know something (anything) from Frank, but he clearly doesnt know what to say....

 

I'll just say this... just because someone doesn't show up on Urban Ohio to let us know all the details of a particular project, doesn't mean it isn't being worked on.  Shocking revelation I know.  :)

 

Unless something has changed, MMPI is definitively uninterested in it. I was there when Falanga said they weren't even putting a door on the front of the place because, in his view, convention goers don't want to use rail.

 

and again, there is a big difference between not being "interested in it", and being opposed to it. trust me on that one...

 

I'll just say this... just because someone doesn't show up on Urban Ohio to let us know all the details of a particular project, doesn't mean it isn't being worked on. Shocking revelation I know. :)

 

 

I will need to be vague on this, but sometimes there may be old funds available that get forgotten. These funds aren't on the city's books, nor can they be used for just anything. Yet there is a desire by the powers-that-be to tap those funds quietly for reasons which I hope are obvious.

I hope you guys are right.

currently, that wall is slated as all glass.

 

all I mean by that is plainly that all falanga and the mmpi people are concerned with right now is building a medical mart and getting tennants.  They could probably care less about a train station that may or may not happen.  but yes, I do know that if said train station comes about they have no problem with it tying it into the center. but they aren't dedicating any of their resources to it.

The wall is all glass, yet there are already 2 rail lines out front, to which their glass wall actively cuts off access.  3-C will most likely start running before we have a new station... so the question is not whether they're copacetic with a new station, the question is whether we can get them to put a door in this wall in the meantime.  Doesn't seem like too much to ask, since we're paying them to do this and we're already funding these rail lines.

see the patio in this picture, I believe this is the level the NCTC could / would connect to the CC.  It'd be extremely easy to create access...

see the patio in this picture, I believe this is the level the NCTC could / would connect to the CC. It'd be extremely easy to create access...

 

Again, I'm wondering about the station that's there right now, the one that connects this site to Tower City and that we're presumably using for 3-C.  Per this rendering, you'd need a parachute to get down there.  Look at the tops of those trees, the ones that barely reach patio level.  Are we supposed to climb down those trees? 

No, were supposed to build a station that connects the malls, and the convention center to the tracks, and creates a pedestrian bridge to the lakefront.  Estimated cost $100m.  And MMPI is not going to pay for or be involved with that.  But if we build one, they aren't opposed to the connection.

I'm increasingly confused.  There's already an active train station down there, just off the edge of that rendering.  I understand that a new station would be awesome, but it's much further down the line than is the MM/CC or the 3-C service.  Why is connecting to our existing rail service so irrelevant?  Can I get a rope ladder?  A bedsheet with knots tied in it?  This is a public project, built with public money on public land.  This is not a gift to us from MMPI.  Why are we supposed to act as though it is?  I don't think it's out of line, on the customer's part, to expect access to our current station... stairwell?  Zipline?  Waterslide?  Anything.

I believe the saying is "you can want in one hand and sh!t in the other - see which one fills up first."

so what are you suggesting?  They build the NCTC themselves?  As you mentioned you currently have a cliff and rail lines that separate the boarding area.  The only way to change that is by building something that bridges the area... the NCTC.  They are already working on a tight (if not unrealistic) budget.  They aren't going to spend tens of millions of dollars of it on a train station.

Where are you getting this?  That's not at all what I said... we already have a train station.  In no way have I suggested they build us a new one.  All I'm suggesting is to have some sort of access to the existing station.  Doesn't need to be elaborate... doesn't (at all) equate to building a brand new station.  Why is there no in-between possibility?  How about just a door facing north, with an arrow pointing toward the Amshack.  A narrow pedestrian bridge?  Is it physically impossible for people to walk across these tracks to the station?  Is the station only approachable from the north or something? 

KJP, what was the history of the intermodal hub?  IIRC it was supposed to be a large bus/train/taxi center near where the NCTC is proposed.  Was it going to be an RTA facility?

 

How do the plans for the NCTC differ from the intermodal hub?

 

(Thanks in advance)

I'm pretty sure the bridge that currently crosses over the tracks to get people to Browns Stadium isn't going anywhere when the Convention Center gets rebuilt, so you'll still be able to get over to the station. The bridge isn't visible in the rendering above, but that doesn't mean it would be knocked down. If they intended to knock it down, they probably wouldn't bother to leave the steps down to it that are visible on the right side of the rendering.  No need for a rope ladder.

 

http://maps.google.com/?ie=UTF8&ll=41.504825,-81.696975&spn=0.001053,0.003396&t=h&z=18