Posted July 4, 200420 yr http://www.cleveland.com/fiveohios/images/0704a.gif Differences create invisible borders Sunday, July 04, 2004 Story by Robert L. Smith and Dave Davis Plain Dealer Reporters So there you are, cruising west on Interstate 70 near Cambridge, roughly following the old National Road, a traveler from a faraway land on a mission to define Ohio. For more info, click the link www.plaindealer.com
July 4, 200420 yr Where in the article did it say you have to "annex and suburbanize" to attract immigrants? First thing I learned in Psych 101: Correlation does not mean causation!!!!!! I think the part of the article you meant to quote was "But in many respects, Columbus, the hub of Exurbia, is Ohio's most progressive city." The view is that Cleveland and Cincy are stuck in their ways and a Somalian, for example, will have a tougher time assimilating there than did their Slavic or Germanic predicesors.
July 4, 200420 yr but the issue is really dealing with the fact that columbus has the *ability* to annex its suburbs. often the suburbs are new and fresh. I can tell you that the actual city of cleveland has far less people from asia/south asia/middle east than it's suburbs and thats because of the "donut effect". These are the new immigrant groups coming to the US now. Theres more jobs and better quality on the edge of the metro/city than in it. Columbus is growing due to the fact that its annexing these places and even country land ready for more housing (suburbanizing). Since Cleveland and Cincinnati and Toledo cant do this as easily, they suffer. Ohio no longer sets it's policy on "A State filled with Cities" but more of a model that promotes one single city, it's capital. So it's policies dont call for more infrastructure like commuter trains, or policies that promote mixed income housing, and growth promoting business in the CBD. Instead we're building more roads, and highways, and industrial parks, and col-de-sacs.
July 4, 200420 yr I do not think columbus is the most progressive city in the state I mean tell me this JohnOSU99 what is columbus doing that makes it the most progressive city in the state....... Besides building sub-divisions and malls........
July 4, 200420 yr Endless suburbs? Do they not know it takes longer to go from kings mills to downtown Cincy than through all of Columbus?
July 4, 200420 yr Maybe but the supposed to be urban part of columbus really isnt urban to me becouse when i went on a osu tour/columbus tour before i chose uc/cincinnati i then noticed how suburben the city was.....
July 4, 200420 yr One more thing im from pittsburgh and in my opinion columbus is not better than cleveland and cincinnati for some reason (I have no idea) columbus population is just so much bigger.
July 4, 200420 yr Columbus is losing population based on the 1950 boundaries. Columbus is only growing because it is annexation and the expansion of it's boundaries. the 1950 boundaries of Columbus lost 8.9% of its population from 1990-2000.
July 5, 200420 yr You know what montecarloss you are right I was wondering how in the hell is columbus population so large for a city that has so much less than cities its size and cities that are smaller than it, well i found out thats becouse the city of columbus merged/expanded its boundaries in a sense with some of the smaller cities in frankin county thats what made thier population so large or appear to be so large, and well if thats the case if the city of cincinnati was to merge with the other smaller cities in hamilton county cincinnati's population would sky rocket to more than 800,000........ and thats the same for cleveland its population would sky rocket too......
July 5, 200420 yr I think the more relevant comparison of city size is the metropolitan area population. Or maybe the media market area population. Relying on just the population of whats in the "city limits" is very misleading. There is also the issue of where the city sits within a regional "urban hierarchy". Citys like, say, Wichita, Omaha, Des Moines, or Louisville might be small in sizes, but are perhaps more signifigant economically and socially (in their respective states and regions) due to their being the only large city for miles around. I think this phenomonen is relevant to Ohio, particularly for citys or metropolitan areas like Dayton, Akron, and Toledo, which are very close to much larger urban centers. Still, though the article seems to be too hung up on "politics", and sort of misses the point in some places, I do beleive Ohio is more regionalized than alot of folks (particularly folks from out-of-state) realize. I know this was quite a revelation for me, personally, after moving here from California.
July 5, 200420 yr I can not belive columbus just fooled me in population and it should have been obvious that columbus's population was not completly right.According to emporis.com Columbus is 728,432 in city(not) and 1,900,497 in metro.Cincinnati 317,371 in city (true) and 2,089,089 in metro.Cleveland 461,324 in city (true) and 2,944,275 in metro.
July 5, 200420 yr Jeff you are right and if people did do it like that it would make columbus the third largest metro area in the state cincinnati and cleveland are both larger than columbus in metro population.
July 5, 200420 yr napier1: The information provided by emporis.com is infact correct. The population figure given is from the July 2003 population estimates. Here's the complete list: 1 New York city: 8,085,742 2 Los Angeles city: 3,819,951 3 Chicago city: 2,869,121 4 Houston city: 2,009,690 5 Philadelphia city: 1,479,339 6 Phoenix city: 1,388,416 7 San Diego city: 1,266,753 8 San Antonio city: 1,214,725 9 Dallas city: 1,208,318 10 Detroit city: 911,402 =========================== 11 San Jose city: 898,349 12 Indianapolis city (balance): 783,438 13 Jacksonville city: 773,781 14 San Francisco city: 751,682 15 Columbus city: 728,432 16 Austin city: 672,011 17 Memphis city: 645,978 18 Baltimore city: 628,670 19 Milwaukee city: 586,941 20 Fort Worth city: 585,122 21 Charlotte city: 584,658 22 El Paso city: 584,113 23 Boston city: 581,616 24 Seattle city: 569,101 25 Washington city: 563,384 26 Denver city: 557,478 27 Nashville-Davidson (balance): 544,765 28 Portland city: 538,544 29 Oklahoma City city: 523,303 30 Las Vegas city: 517,017 31 Tucson city: 507,658 32 Long Beach city: 475,460 33 Albuquerque city: 471,856 34 New Orleans city: 469,032 35 Cleveland city: 461,324 36 Fresno city: 451,455 37 Sacramento city: 445,335 38 Kansas City city: 442,768 39 Virginia Beach city: 439,467 40 Mesa city: 432,376 41 Atlanta city: 423,019 42 Omaha city: 404,267 43 Oakland city: 398,844 44 Tulsa city: 387,807 45 Honolulu CDP: 380,149 46 Miami city: 376,815 47 Minneapolis city: 373,188 48 Colorado Springs city: 370,448 49 Arlington city: 355,007 50 Wichita city: 354,617 51 Santa Ana city: 342,510 52 Anaheim city: 332,361 53 St. Louis city: 332,223 54 Pittsburgh city: 325,337 55 Tampa city: 317,647 56 Cincinnati city: 317,361 57 Raleigh city: 316,802 58 Toledo city: 308,973 59 Aurora city: 290,418 60 Buffalo city: 285,018 61 Riverside city: 281,514 62 St. Paul city: 280,404 63 Corpus Christi city: 279,208 64 Newark city: 277,911 65 Stockton city: 271,466 66 Bakersfield city: 271,035 67 Anchorage municipality: 270,951 68 Lexington-Fayette: 266,798 69 Louisville city 248,762 70 St. Petersburg city: 247,610 71 Plano city: 241,991 72 Norfolk city: 241,727 73 Jersey City city: 239,097 74 Birmingham city: 236,620 75 Lincoln city: 235,594 76 Glendale city: 232,838 77 Greensboro city: 229,110 78 Hialeah city: 226,401 79 Baton Rouge city: 225,090 80 Fort Wayne city: 219,495 81 Madison city: 218,432 82 Garland city: 218,027 83 Scottsdale city: 217,989 84 Rochester city: 215,093 85 Henderson city: 214,852 86 Akron city: 212,215 87 Chandler city: 211,299 88 Chesapeake city: 210,834 89 Modesto city: 206,872 90 Lubbock city: 206,481 91 Fremont city: 204,525 92 Glendale city: 200,499 93 Montgomery city: 200,123 94 Orlando city: 199,336 95 Chula Vista city: 199,060 96 Durham city: 198,376 97 Shreveport city: 198,364 98 Laredo city: 197,488 99 Yonkers city: 197,388 100 Tacoma city: 196,790
July 5, 200420 yr yup thats right and its funny how alot of the cities are just set apart by a few thousand.....
July 5, 200420 yr Regarding the article, I found parts of it to be interesting. As a native Ohioan, the idea of the state really being a combination of 5 distinct areas is nothing new or shocking, and something I've been aware of for quite some time. What I found most interesting from that article actually, being a native Columbusite also, is the general ill sentinement Clevelanders have of Columbus. On the flip side, here in Columbus, people adore Cleveland. I don't know whether it's because there are so many Cleveland transplants currently residing in the city or what, but the general sentinement of most residents towards Cleveland is definitely more of admiration. Just a small example is the Indians. They are extremely popular here, moreso that the local news sports coverage always mentions the Indians before the local Clippers. All cable providers also broadcast the WUAB in their STANDARD packages, as Indians baseball is so popular here. I think the author of the article does need to make a trip down to Columbus though, as the city's reputation as a suburban wasteland precedes itself. The 1950s-era Columbus, while loosing population, is rich in urbanity, history, and culture. One only needs to look at the photos on this website to see that. but the issue is really dealing with the fact that columbus has the *ability* to annex its suburbs. often the suburbs are new and fresh. *Had* is more like it. The majority of Columbus' annexation occured during the city's growth spurt in the 1970s, and continued on into the 80s and early 90s. Columbus' growth spurt didn't happen in the 20s like Cleveland and Cincinnati. Columbus is a new city plain and simple. The animosity aimed towards Columbus just because its the only city in Ohio posting population gains because it grew at a time when annexation was easily accomplished is pretty foolish. In addition, the annexation wave is for the most part over and done with. The last major annexation was the land around Easton, which was a combined effort by the developer and the city so that tax revenue from the project would flow to the city and not the suburbs. Ohio no longer sets it's policy on "A State filled with Cities" but more of a model that promotes one single city, it's capital. So it's policies dont call for more infrastructure like commuter trains, or policies that promote mixed income housing, and growth promoting business in the CBD. City infrastructure, mixed income housing, etc. are usually tasks to be accomplished by the city itself, are they not? Here in Columbus, all those issues are tackled by city hall, not the statehouse. The city is working furiously to develop a rejuvinated interest in the urban core. The Central Ohio Transity Authority (also not a state entity) along with the city is pushing for light rail. Columbus just completed a brand-new mixed income housing development downtown called the Commons at Grant. Blaming Cleveland's deterioration on the statehouse is merely pointing fingers. what is columbus doing that makes it the most progressive city in the state....... Deeming one city "more progressive" than an other is truly a matter of opinion, though Columbus is usually deemed the most progressive city in the state for a variety of reasons. Probably first and foremost is its unwavering acceptance of new cultures, especially Mexican and Somalian. Columbus has the second highest Somalian population in the country after Minneapolis, and they are flourishing. Most Somalis live comfortably in the near nothside in the Northland neighborhood and work all sorts of jobs. The same goes for the bourgeoning Mexican population. Columbus already has several Mexican supermarket CHAINS, including La Michuancana and La Inca. Columbus recently got its third spanish radio station, and has developed quite a barrio on the city's near west side and north side. In addition, Columbus has the largest gay and lesbian population in the entire state. Entire neighborhoods, such as The Short North, Olde Towne East, and Victorian Village are known for being extremely large gay enclaves. Columbus' Doo-Dah parade is recognized as the second oldest, coming right after it started in Pasedena in the mid 1970s. Columbus is recognized as being a progressive city not only in terms of culture but economically. Unlike Cleveland and Cincinnati, there aren't acres and acres of factories and manufacturing in the city. Since the city grew much later that it's older counterparts, the city has developed a much more diversified and progressive economy, mainly focused on retail, logistics, pharmaceuticals, and insurance. Columbus is also the state bastion of research and technology. The Battelle Institute, The Ohio State University, and Chemical Abstracts are national and global institutions in research and development, also leading to the city's recognition as a progressive place.
July 5, 200420 yr good post, CMH. Columbus seems to be to be more the "sunbelt boomtown". Maybe more comparable to Austin or Sacramento than to its peers in Ohio.
July 5, 200420 yr wow lexington is now bigger than louisville! NO that data is wrong or outdated. Louisville annexed the entire county last year and know sits at around 700K+.
July 5, 200420 yr Reading the replys of the "outsiders" whining about Columbus is just funny. You're just proving the author of the article right (or falling into his trap).
July 5, 200420 yr wow lexington is now bigger than louisville! NO that data is wrong or outdated. Louisville annexed the entire county last year and know sits at around 700K+. Yep. And Lexington-Fayette Co. is only about 260K.
July 5, 200420 yr No im not bashing Columbus. Im glad its annexing cities and actually doing something positive such as bringing people into the city. Its fresh and new. I wish Cleveland had that. I wish Cleveland and Columbus were combined, then we'd have something. im bashing Ohio as a whole however because we have a bunch of non-populists in the state government now. So theres no push for city growth, only suburban sprawl, and thats irresponsible in my opinion. Cleveland does promote mixed income development, city infrastructure, and other populist initiatives... In fact thats pretty much all it has been promoting all along... but it has no money. Spawl has sucked the vibrancy out of it. So it cant do anything but depend on the state and federal government for help (which is hand-out-ish and backwards).
July 5, 200420 yr I do not think columbus is the most progressive city in the state I mean tell me this JohnOSU99 what is columbus doing that makes it the most progressive city in the state....... Besides building sub-divisions and malls........ I think CMH_Downtown answered your question.
July 5, 200420 yr Wow, Columbus city limits actually goes outside of the loop? Can someone tell me why Columbus can do this and not places like Cincinnati? How can Columbus and Houston annex at will? Cincinnati is loaded with townships! Why can't Cincinnati annex Colerain TWP? Cincinnati isn't confined because of incorporated ares, there are plenty of townships to annex!
July 5, 200420 yr No im not bashing Columbus. Im glad its annexing cities and actually doing something positive such as bringing people into the city. Its fresh and new. I wish Cleveland had that. I wish Cleveland and Columbus were combined' date=' then we'd have something. [/quote'] Columbus hasn't annexed a city/town since the 1930s. All annexed land was township land. Referring to John's map, I wish I-670 was completed in 1980 as shown there (by the city)
July 5, 200420 yr yea but townships are the fasting growing areas in ohio, its the same thing, its bringing in new land. and yea why doesnt cleveland or cincinnati do this? heh
July 5, 200420 yr Montecarlos does ask a good question. The same state annexation and incorporation laws would apply to Cols and Cincy, so why the sucess of Cols and not Cincy in sucessfully pursuing agressive annexation?
July 5, 200420 yr Incidentally Toledo, too, had a pretty agrressive annexation policy, incoporating alot of postwar suburbia into the city. One thing I recall reading was the deal was that the school districts didn't change, just the municple boundarys.
July 5, 200420 yr Back in the 1980's Columbus signed a "win-win" deal with suburban school districts that said for 20 years any land that Columbus annexed wouldn't change to the Columbus City school district (i.e. there are kids that live inside the Columbus city limits, yet attend Hilliard schools, Dublin schools, Gahanna schools, etc.). Well the 20-years is up, so all new land that Columbus is annexing will be converted to Columbus City schools, so the city is expecting a boom in school district attendance.
July 5, 200420 yr yea but townships are the fasting growing areas in ohio' date=' its the same thing, its bringing in new land. and yea why doesnt cleveland or cincinnati do this? heh[/quote'] First off, the land to be annexed has to be next to, or attach to the existing city. In the case of Cleveland, all the suburbs have closed Cleveland off to available land. Second, No city can just go and take land. Someone has to petition to have their land annexed into any city. And then the township has to agree to let go of the land and then the city has to agree to take on the land. Nowadays, townships trustees are being manned by citizens who escaped the city and don't want to be part of that, while land develepers ask for annexation so they can get access to "easy water, sewer, and roads." The rules and mindset today aren't the same as they were 20, 30, 40 years ago when Columbus made their move.
July 5, 200420 yr Hmm lets see, Colrain twp(65k) touches the city limits Green twp (56k) does also as does, Anderson twp(44k), Columbia twp(7k),Sycamore twp (21k) which touches Symms twp(15k) which touches Deerfield twp(25k) ohhh and don't forget Delhi twp(31k) and Springfield twp(38k). 301 k total
July 5, 200420 yr ^ Thank you. In the case of Colerain Twp., yes it does touch Cincy in the Mt. Airy area. But they see no reason to become a part of Cincinnati. There is really no benefit to them. Hell, if they didn't even want to incorporate as a city, they're sure as hell not going to sit by and be annexed. Would the city of Cincinnati even be able to take on servicing another 36 square miles (half of which is rural, hilly, and difficult to develop)?
July 5, 200420 yr good post' date=' CMH. Columbus seems to be to be more the "sunbelt boomtown". Maybe more comparable to Austin or Sacramento than to its peers in Ohio.[/quote']You sure??? Cincinnati 7,700 Cleveland -1,800 Columbus -3,700 Dayton -4,500 Toledo -9,000 Daymn Cincy is carrying the whole state. http://www.bls.gov/news.release/metro.t02.htm
July 5, 200420 yr No leave the boom towns to places like Dubai lol Anyway i think i've realized how little i know about Columbus' policies. I mean we have articles in the paper here talking about how Columbus "cheated", but then i think why piss and moan about it? Sometimes it pays to look and learn from other places. As far as Columbus goes tho, i agree it was smart to annex rather than setup city-suburbs for the rich folks like cleveland did. Eventually i think some type of County/City thing is going to happen in cleveland, we practically have that in some cases. And i definately think having a city of 1.4 million would be nice haha However is growing outward rather than upwards a good idea? Im not so sure these ideas of "regionalism" are all so "progressive" at this point. Progressive is more like Vancouver or Portland as far as city building goes.
July 5, 200420 yr Cincy should annex all of ohio. :) Well....just a few smaller cities around it like Norwood, St.benard, etc
July 5, 200420 yr As far as Columbus goes tho, i agree it was smart to annex rather than setup city-suburbs for the rich folks like cleveland did. Actually Columbus has that, too. Bexley and Upper Arlington. Same in Toledo, with Ottawa Hills. Getting back to regionalism in Ohio: Heres another map that shows some regionalization in Ohio in terms of dialect. Its of the north and midsections of the US, but includes Ohio. Source: Telsur Project
July 5, 200420 yr As far as Columbus goes tho' date=' i agree it was smart to annex rather than setup city-suburbs for the rich folks like cleveland did. Eventually i think some type of County/City thing is going to happen in cleveland, we practically have that in some cases. And i definately think having a city of 1.4 million would be nice haha[/quote']I wasn't aware that all of your suburbs were set up for rich folks!
July 6, 200420 yr Cincy should annex Newport and Covington! How cool would that be! They can't. No city can go into more than one state. (Even Kansas City Mo/Ks is two seperate political entities) Now if Ohio could Annex Newport and Covington (and pass constitutional muster), then Cincy could try to claim them as their own.
July 6, 200420 yr As far as Columbus goes tho' date=' i agree it was smart to annex rather than setup city-suburbs for the rich folks like cleveland did. Eventually i think some type of County/City thing is going to happen in cleveland, we practically have that in some cases. And i definately think having a city of 1.4 million would be nice haha[/quote']I wasn't aware that all of your suburbs were set up for rich folks! That's why the Governor's mansion is in Bexley, and former Gov. Rhodes lived in Upper Arlington. Otherwise (in modern times) First Dublin and now Easton (though that is technically inside Columbus city limits) are where the new rich and powerful like to reside.
July 6, 200420 yr Yes the city suburbs in cleveland were setup for wealthier individuals who didnt want to live with the working class/blue collar types.
July 6, 200420 yr I remember at the Seafood Fest in Newport last year some singer says, "Cincinnati, let me here you!" and some Kentuckian behind me going, "Cincinnati? This is Newport!" I laughed...silly Kentuckians, like there riverfront would be so packed if it weren't for the view of Cincinnati in the mist. When you are on the Ohio side you get to see a big box and some green space and while that is not back (See East St. Louis) I think Newports main attraction is the view!
July 6, 200420 yr Don't get me started about the Soda vs Pop thing. In Cincinnati you can go to Graeters, LaRosa's and Penn Station Subs and find soda on the menu board yet the idiots of Ohio call it Pop. How about I pop you in the mouth? IT IS SODA AND WILL ALWAYS BE SODA!
July 6, 200420 yr Cincy should annex Newport and Covington! How cool would that be! They can't. No city can go into more than one state. (Even Kansas City Mo/Ks is two seperate political entities) Now if Ohio could Annex Newport and Covington (and pass constitutional muster)' date=' then Cincy could try to claim them as their own.[/quote'] LOL, I hope you don't think I was being serious!!! I'm not that stupid man, I know you can't annex across state borders. Was just thinking it would be nice if Cincy had control of both banks of the river. Montecarloss: Give it up man, it's pop and will always be pop in Ohio. I work with a guy from New York and he even calls it pop after only living in Ohio for 2 years.
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