pop, soda..whatever, just dont refer to it as coke unless you mean coca cola i say.

and $2.36 for bottled water....that shouldnt be taxed now they'll probably change the price (?)

 

and wow, the plain dealer really hates columbus. just imagine if columbus built a tower shorter than key tower but with a taller spire, cleveland would probably come down and start shooting us

just imagine if columbus built a tower shorter than key tower but with a taller spire' date=' cleveland would probably come down and start shooting us[/quote']

 

hahaha

 

 

But seriously tho, why hasnt Columbus built anything new/tall? Are there any proposals for anything over 20 stories?

columbus dosnt do much building these days because of a high emptiness rate in the office towers, half of all the companies left downtown. they dont need more government towers right now,(damnit i want capitol tower place) and there are enough hotels. our only real hope is residential. dont forget miranova is under four years old still. right now bicentennial plaza apartments is the only thing proposed, but it has been for longer than ohio has been a state. its 21 stories and hard to find a rendering.

I find it hard to believe that Cleveland never had any working-class or industrial-type suburbs. Oh, well.

Oh it does, you could practically follow them down the industrial valley. Parma is one of the top 10 biggest cities in ohio. A lot of the blue collar suburbs resulted from unchecked sprawl, they were never intentionally setup by any one group of people or powerful individuals in cleveland.

You know what I have to tell you all that you all are really good investigaters, in a sense you all are experts when it comes to development im very impressed with everybody on this forum.......

^ Quite possibly :lol:

Don't get me started about the Soda vs Pop thing. In Cincinnati you can go to Graeters' date=' LaRosa's and Penn Station Subs and find soda on the menu board yet the idiots of Ohio call it Pop. How about I pop you in the mouth? IT IS SODA AND WILL ALWAYS BE SODA![/quote']

Damn straight.

Actually, the correct phraseology is a "soft drink."

 

soft drink

 

n. In both senses also called soda pop, also called regionally cold drink, drink, pop, soda, soda water, tonic.

 

1. A nonalcoholic, flavored, carbonated beverage, usually commercially prepared and sold in bottles or cans.

2. A serving of this beverage.

I ask for soda pop if I'm in a place I'm unfamiliar with.

Or ask if they serve Coke or Pepsi products.

I've always called soft drinks "pop" though I've gotten into the habit of asking for a "soda" when I'm at a restaurant. That's only for Coke/Pepsi/RC/etc products though. For the lemon-lime drinks, I'll usually ask for a Sprite if I don't know the type offered at a particular restaurant.

But seriously tho, why hasnt Columbus built anything new/tall? Are there any proposals for anything over 20 stories?

 

As previously mentioned, Columbus hasn't built or had anything proposed of significant height recently due to the abysmal office vacany rate downtown. Last I heard, the vacany rate downtown was hovering around 19% and was going down, but not by much. The last building completed over 20 stories was the Miranova Condominium tower at 26 stories and 314 feet. It was completed in 2000. The last 20+ story office building was the Fifth-Third Center at 302 feet and 25 stories. It was built in 1998. Since then, 3 other office buildings were built: Miranova Corporate Tower (2001), OPERS Addition (2003), and 300 E. Broad Street (2003). I don't the exact height of the three, but they are all 12 stories. Another 12-16 story office building will be built downtown as an addition to the Franklin County Government Complex for the courts division. There is debate going on over the final location however, as the current proposal has the building going up on an urban park, while the city would like to have it built on a neighboring surface lot in RiverSouth. Most of the office development actually happening is primarily in all the new buildings going up in the Arena District and in the Capitol Square complex.

Lookie what I found!  Another buried thread with a ton of replies.

 

Must be good for something.

I believe that when I was studying Urban Planning in the 70's, Columbus was lifted as an example of a smart city, because it would not extend water and other utilities to adjoining areas unless they joined the city. Cleveland and Detroit were lifted up as examples of cities who failed to do so, and found themselves with former townships, incorporating individually, but living off of city services. St. Louis was an example of the worst kind of city: in an act of hubris they cut themselves off from their county, and froze their city limits around 1876.

 

St. Louis was once the third largest city in the country.

 

Thanks for bringing back an excellent thread for us newbies...

Sometimes I think its only us Ohioans who are aware of what a highly regionalized state this is.  Most folks outside the state are not really aware of it.

 

Also, three major metropolitan areas, as well as three fairly large midrange metro areas (Toledo, Dayton, and Akron)...

I have learned not to forget Youngstown!

But drive a freeway in Memphis, Miami or Montana -- when you see an Ohio plate, does it matter whether it's Ashland Ashtabula or Auglaize?

 

Out in the world we are One Ohio ...

^ Now that Ohio removed the county at the bottom of the license plate.

they have the sticker numbers. harder to identify, but more fun when you can

 

I'm starting to get good at identifying a lot of the numbers, but I still don't know most of them.

Is the numbering based on the alphabet (Adams - 01...Wood - 88) or order of creation (Washington -01....Noble - 88)?

Pretty sure it's alphabetical. Over here Miami Co. is 55 and Montgomery is 57. that would leave Monroe (wherever thehell that is  :-D ) #56

Since it's alphabetical, with a little bit of thought it's sometimes not too hard to figure out numbers I don't instantly recognize.  The ones I do recognize right away are:

09 Butler

12 Clark

18 Cuyahoga

21 Delaware

25 Franklin

29 Greene

31 Hamilton

51 Marion

55 Miami

57 Montgomery

83 Warren

I'm not convinved annexation is necessarily a good thing...there are big time public service and infrastructure costs that go along with expansion...plus, just in terms of the principle of urbanism, would cincinnati even WANT to annex a place like sycamore tnshp?  I'd almost rather remain small geographically and build up, not out.

oops...that was a response to an earlier post on annexation...my bad

^ Sure...Sycamore Twp. is already built out.  Why wouldn't the city want to annex it?  The infrastructure is already there, anyway.

 

Plus the city of Cincinnati would get all of the taxes from Kenwood.  Cha-ching!

Liscense plate numbers I'm familiar with:

 

03 Ashland

17 Crawford

18 Cuyahoga

22 Erie

33 Hardin

39 Huron

47 Lorain

48 Lucas

52 Medina

62 Ottawa

70 Richland

72 Sandusky

74 Seneca

85 Wayne

88 Wyandot

 

Old thread I guess but it seems like some of the discussion in this thread involved some topics I've become interested in lately.  I've only been reading this board for a couple weeks now and wouldn't mind some more discussion as I have lived in Columbus off and on for about 12 years and have recently started thinking of moving to Cleveland.  I've also lived in Los Angeles and Orange County so I'm familiar with both sprawl and with SPRAWL.  I grew up in Canton so I am a 'pop' native but was ridiculed into saying 'soda' at some point.

 

I telecommute so a job is not really the issue as much as general quality of life.  I like Columbus and the city has been pretty good to me but lately I am just finding it rather dull and thought a change of pace might do me good.  The old core of Columbus has some very nice spots(especially German Village) and I can certainly think of a thousand towns that are a lot worse than Columbus but once you get a few blocks east or west of that five mile stretch of High Street there isn't a whole lot going on except for identical strip malls.  I exaggerate of course but as an outsider with an eye on Cleveland here are some of the things that at least seem appealing from a distance:

 

1. It's on the lake so you have that whole water thing going for you.

2. It at least appears that you have something resembling a useful light rail system.

3. Overall larger stock of nice older houses than Columbus.  Real estate seems awfully reasonable compared to even Columbus, not to mention nationally.

4. Three professional sports teams as opposed to OSU football.  On the map it looks like your rail system gets pretty close to all three of those teams.

5. What certainly appears to be at least twice the entertainment.  Columbus may get some of the stadium rock acts now and then but if you pick up a Scene or Free Times as compared to the Other Paper or Alive it is immediately apparent where the majority of traveling musicians are stopping in Ohio.  I think maybe they all just stop there as a pilgrimage for the "Hello Cleveland!" line from Spinal Tap.

6. Judging strictly by media outlets I would have to say that Cleveland appears to be vastly more politically progressive than Columbus but that may be an illusion. 

7. Well, it sure looks like a real downtown anyways.

8. West Side Market is a real market.  The North Market, while containing many delicious things, is more like a gourmet food court.  West Side market has a train stop.  North Market has pay parking.

 

Just a few random items from the top of my head there.  I still don't know a whole lot about the kinds of issues  that seem to be critical to Cleveland's future but am trying to do research when I have the time.  I'm just trying to get a sense of if Cleveland is improving or declining in meaningful ways.  Most of what I am reading right now seems to relay that although there are many areas of the city that are being revitalized the tax base continues to shrink w/ no apparent relief in sight.  A good deal of the data I see relies heavily on last census so I'm curious to know specifically how the last 5 years have been for Cleveland.

 

 

I think in many ways it's a comparison of apples and oranges... Cleveland rose to prominence in the industrial age and was once in the top ten in the nation population-wise. Columbus is still on its way up for the most part but their economy is far more service-oriented. I'll address your comments:

 

1. It's on the lake so you have that whole water thing going for you.

 

I didn't grow up in Cleveland and I honestly don't utilize the lakefront all that much (i.e. swimming, boating, etc.) but having lived one block from the lake for several years, I've come to appreciate Lake Erie. You really develop a sense of "no matter where you are, you ALWAYS know which direction you are from the lake). The micro-climate along the lakeshore is a god-send in the hottest days of summer (it's slightly cooler in summer because the warm air picks up the cool temps from the lake). As I live west of downtown and close to the lake, lake-effect snow almost never becomes an issue.

 

2. It at least appears that you have something resembling a useful light rail system.

 

True to some extent - it could be better, but I'm glad we have it nonetheless.

 

3. Overall larger stock of nice older houses than Columbus.  Real estate seems awfully reasonable compared to even Columbus, not to mention nationally.

 

Again, Cleveland being the older and larger city, that's not surprising. However, some of that housing stock has deteriorated and some has been gentrified out of affordability in certain neighborhoods. Affordability isn't as big of a problem in other cities but again, you may find that gem of a house waiting to be rehabbed but the neighborhood could be quite dicey.

 

4. Three professional sports teams as opposed to OSU football.  On the map it looks like your rail system gets pretty close to all three of those teams.

 

I'm not a sports fan in the least but I do appreciate the impact they have on our economy. Yes, you can walk from the Gateway area (Indians and Cavs) to Browns Stadium in about 15-20 minutes. Browns Stadium has a station on the Waterfront Line, and Gateway is accessible from the Tower City rapid station.

 

5. What certainly appears to be at least twice the entertainment.  Columbus may get some of the stadium rock acts now and then but if you pick up a Scene or Free Times as compared to the Other Paper or Alive it is immediately apparent where the majority of traveling musicians are stopping in Ohio.  I think maybe they all just stop there as a pilgrimage for the "Hello Cleveland!" line from Spinal Tap.

 

That's likely due to the metro size - Cleveland is roughly 2.9 million if you include Akron, whereas Columbus is at 1.6 million (I believe). Event promoters need to make the biggest impact with the least overlap and demographics prove that people don't mind a 2 hour drive to go to a concert.

 

6. Judging strictly by media outlets I would have to say that Cleveland appears to be vastly more politically progressive than Columbus but that may be an illusion.

 

Not necessarily. Sure, the area is a Democratic stronghold but that doesn't always imply "progressive". 

 

7. Well, it sure looks like a real downtown anyways.

 

Yes, it's a real downtown - with positives and negatives.

 

8. West Side Market is a real market.  The North Market, while containing many delicious things, is more like a gourmet food court.  West Side market has a train stop.  North Market has pay parking.

 

The West Side Market caters to a combination of people, from the 90-year old babushka-wearing grandmother to the gay trendinista couple living in Ohio City to the charter bus tours to residents of CMHA. Columbus doesn't have the ethnic neighborhoods like Cleveland and thus the North Market will cater to their immediate demographic. 

 

For all the things Cleveland has - I have to say it would be great to have a university along the lines of Ohio State. 50,000 young people concentrated in one area like that brings a certain appeal that few other institutions can bring. It would be nice for Cleveland to have a Miranova (aka a residential tower that really has a nice impact on the skyline). It would be nice for Cleveland's corporations to invest in the city like Nationwide has. It would be nice if our gay scene was as appealing for the under-25 crowd as it is for the 25+ crowd. Hope that all made sense - if we organize a forum meet in Cleveland this year, I'd encourage you to attend to get a feel for the city.

Lucky, you mention entertainment. I have never lived in any other Ohio city, but I think Cleveland's arts and culture would be hard to beat. There are few U.S. cities of any size that have the cultural riches we do -- not just the museums, but the galleries, the film (Cinematheque, Cedar-Lee, film festival), the music (the orchestra, chamber ensembles and tons of popular venues), the theater (Playhouse Square, Cleveland Playhouse, Cleveland Public Theatre) and some innovative dance companies. It's amazing.

As much as previous comments and the original article have played up the positive aspects of Columbus expansion my concerns do seem to intersect with the phrase 'boomtown' that was used here earlier.  I really have no professional expertise in urban planning but it certainly seems to me that much of what has been built in Columbus isn't going to age gracefully.  Much of the more appealing old city core has been used up and occupied and virtually nothing of lasting architectural and aesthetic appeal has been built outside the core.  At the moment, Columbus is newer and cleaner but that mega condo complex with the white vinyl siding up the street is going to be substantially less appealing to be in or around in 10 years time.

 

Energy prices do seem to be a real concern for Columbus.  It is as auto-dependent a city as there ever was and it seems that a great deal of the corporate growth has occurred around the outerbelt.  While there seems to be no end to Columbus' willingness to construct new stadiums they have invested basically nothing at all into mass transit.  As a prospective homeowner I wonder if Columbus traded long-term planning for a quick buck.  Some of the industries such as government, healthcare, edumacation, and trucking seem to be relatively safe but I often have the sense that much of the corporate growth is from the types of companies that will split the minute some other town makes them a better tax deal.

 

Columbus does have a great many young people but my experience has been that somewhere between 80-90% of them want to leave if possible.  OSU and the surrounding universities are a great asset no doubt but Columbus still seems to be a town that people want to graduate from rather than to. 

 

Again, these are just some random thoughts and some of my concerns may be unjustified.  I'm sure Cleveland has some serious problems as well.  I'm curious if anyone has lived in both cities for an extended period?

 

 

One bad thing you would likely notice in Cleveland, in contrast with Columbus, is our generally poor self-image. Of course, if you surround yourself with positive Clevelanders, as it's quite possible to do in reviving neighborhoods like Ohio City et al., that doesn't have to be such a big problem.

One thing I notice in Columbus is how many Clevelanders here in Columbus either:

 

A). Bash Columbus

B). Somewhat jealous that the third-string city is rising (re: Blue Jackets and such)

or C). Are more delusional than Richard Simmons

 

Columbus (meaning, old city) has a large amount of historic structures left much like Cleveland city, sans downtown.  On the contrary, Columbus does have ethnic neighborhoods, albeit different than the more eastern European (Somali; Jamaican; Hungarian; etc).  And blah blah.  Again, I find the whole "pat the hand on the back" for Cleveland and "bashing Columbus subtly" a bit tiring (as do many other Columbus forumers).

 

Appreciate Cleveland for what it is and appreciate Columbus for what it is.  No need to compare X and Y. 

 

And trust me, there is no city in Ohio that isn't auto-dependant (except for key areas; like the denser areas of the larger cites).

As much as previous comments and the original article have played up the positive aspects of Columbus expansion my concerns do seem to intersect with the phrase 'boomtown' that was used here earlier. I really have no professional expertise in urban planning but it certainly seems to me that much of what has been built in Columbus isn't going to age gracefully. Much of the more appealing old city core has been used up and occupied and virtually nothing of lasting architectural and aesthetic appeal has been built outside the core. At the moment, Columbus is newer and cleaner but that mega condo complex with the white vinyl siding up the street is going to be substantially less appealing to be in or around in 10 years time.

 

Energy prices do seem to be a real concern for Columbus. It is as auto-dependent a city as there ever was and it seems that a great deal of the corporate growth has occurred around the outerbelt. While there seems to be no end to Columbus' willingness to construct new stadiums they have invested basically nothing at all into mass transit. As a prospective homeowner I wonder if Columbus traded long-term planning for a quick buck. Some of the industries such as government, healthcare, education, and trucking seem to be relatively safe but I often have the sense that much of the corporate growth is from the types of companies that will split the minute some other town makes them a better tax deal.

 

Columbus does have a great many young people but my experience has been that somewhere between 80-90% of them want to leave if possible. OSU and the surrounding universities are a great asset no doubt but Columbus still seems to be a town that people want to graduate from rather than to.

 

Again, these are just some random thoughts and some of my concerns may be unjustified. I'm sure Cleveland has some serious problems as well. I'm curious if anyone has lived in both cities for an extended period?

 

 

I found your thoughts very interesting. Being a Columbus native I have given much thought to the cities future and past. The points that you brought up are no more isolated to Columbus than any other American post world war II "boom" city, suburbs, or inner ring suburbs. In many metros the suburban development projects are not obviously holding up so well. I have just read an article about SanFrancisco's inner ring suburbs and how they are declining faster than anywhere else in the the metro area.

 

In Columbus you can get that feeling that the cities only saving grace is it's urban core. I spend all of my time in the old city limits and sometimes pretend the rest doesn't exist. You said that most of urban Columbus is developed to capacity but that's far from true. The center part of the city has seen it's gentrification soar as the development in annexed areas soared. Downtown Columbus and urban Columbus was far more boring in just the 90's Downtown is only starting to see its population figures jump (population in downtown has jumped 800 percent since 02) 50,000 or more people can easily be moved in if needed.

 

However, much of the post 50s development is not as sub-stainable. I grew up around Morse Rd. area in north Columbus, which was the boom area in the 60's. I have watched the area go slightly downhill. Hotels chains have moved out as well as stores, but new ones do seem to slowly move in. Your scenario is what I would call the doomsday scenario, though I am sure some of those things will happen in some form (companies hardly being bound to the region so leaving fast for better offers and "newer" areas aging rapidly and poorly kept up.) Charlotte, Columbus, Indianapolis and every major city or metro area do need to be thinking about how to upkeep newer development.

 

For a "boom" city like Columbus the question is how to combat the eventual decline of this sprawl like development.

 

For Columbus the positives are the city is taking drastic measures. The police departments have been activated to rising crime rates in the newer city limits way way before they get out of control, Columbus has taken on major revitalization's to commercial streets that were designed in the 60's,70's by adding sidewalks, proper lighting, and other improvements. The city is adding office jobs and parks to older commercial sections like Northland and trying to keep jobs near the older neighborhoods thus keeping people in the older neighborhoods. Columbus has also become aggressive at adding parks/rec centers to the newer neighborhoods that are lacking them. All of these measures will hopefully work to keep these suburban style neighborhoods as sustainable as possible. Columbus has learned from neighborhood decline in other cities and what efforts will be needed to keep aging developments from declining.

 

 

For any city that has experienced such a growth so quickly, making an identity to keep people and corporations in your city is a challenge. If Columbus didn't take aggressive steps to make its inner city attractive and exciting the city would fall to pieces eventually. This is why the mayor and local government leaders will stop at nothing these days to improve downtown and urban neighborhoods. All of the transplants need a reason to call Columbus home for generations and to expand local donations and arts/cultural spending. If there's nothing unique keeping people bound to the region they will move on to the next boom town to retire or take on a new job.

 

To me Columbus' hope is its inner city. Unlike Phoenix, Charlotte, Austin or those other cities at least Columbus has an original 40 square miles to work with and plenty of room to build for years all around downtown. Columbus' entire metro growth has slowed and thank god. While home builders are complaining it's obviously a good thing. Delaware County new home builds are down 40percent from last year.

 

Since Mayor Michael Colemen has taken office the city will not pay for roads and infrastructure, the developer must. The city has "build as you pay plans." Older neighborhoods (some just from the 80's/90's even) are being reinvested in and newer development is more planned and has a much stable future. Even Easton at least uses sidewalks and mixes retail, residential, hotels etc. It might be the lesser of two evils but is far more sustainable than some of the development Columbus saw in the 60's 70's and 80's (parking lots with poorly designed box stores far back from the street and no mix uses) The city is taking "smart" steps to development and makes newer improvements far more attractive. If Columbus continued in the direction it was going in the 70'

s/80's/early 90's it would be an even bigger massive sprawled out mess. I would rather have had more slow, steady, smarter growth in the previous decades but we haven't always and now the future generations are going to be stuck with the massive upkeep.

 

What Columbus has developed is more manageable than Kansas City, Indianapolis (now over 300 square miles), Dallas, Houston, parts of LA, Atlanta, Florida etc.etc.etc. Your issues are really no more a problem for Columbus than every part of America. It's why we are here on urbanohio.com With some of the actions I have mentioned and Columbus' true success at urban revitalization there's still much hope for Columbus' success to continue well after the cities economic boom has passed. Thanks for the post is interesting to hear other people's ideas.

I would certainly agree that many of the issues that Columbus faces are common to other U.S. cities at this point in time but I suppose the net I am casting here is an attempt to perhaps catch some opinions on the futures of both cities.  I'm in a position of looking to buy a house sometime in the next couple years and it seems fairly certain I'll be staying in Ohio.  The question is on which horse do I place my bet so comparisons are interesting to me.

 

For the most part I also think Columbus is on the right track in many areas but as an outsider I don't yet really have a good sense of how Cleveland is heading into the next 10-20 years.  Cleveland grew larger sooner and in many ways seems to have a head start on Columbus culturally and socially simply due to overall metro population and all the interesting places and institutions that served a larger population for a longer period of time.  It really isn't a question of what city is the bestest or anything like that...more along the lines as to which city is genuinely best equipped to handle the next 20 years.  I doubt if anyone could authoritatively answer that question but it is an interesting one to me nonetheless.  Depending on the individual question I pose to myself sometimes Columbus is declining, improving or peaking.

 

What are the right questions to ask when examining the question of overall quality of life predictions in a given city?

You want to consider what field you're in - if you're in healthcare, Cleveland would likely offer you plenty of opportunities. If you work in the legal field, that's another area where Cleveland excels. It's like I heard someone say - "it's not the first job that you get in a new city that you worry about; it's the second and third". You also want to consider whether you plan to have children because as we all know, the schools in Ohio generally need a lot of work - some more than others.

 

I've heard people rail on that "there aren't any jobs in Cleveland" and in a few cases they may be right, but for the most part they're biased because they recently lost their job *or* they're unhappy where they are, but are too picky to leave their current situation. Speaking as someone in the creative field (graphic design), I can honestly say that I've not had much problem (knock on wood) finding work in Cleveland - a city not exactly known for design jobs. Of course, I've heard people say there aren't design jobs in Cleveland - the jobs were there, they just weren't the super-funky ultra-creative jobs that in reality are held by .000000000001% of designers.

 

You also want to do some homework about potential neighborhoods that you find desireable to visit, but you need to find out if you can actually live there. For example, where I live in Edgewater - you can rent a 1-bedroom in a decent older building for $500 a month. But, when it comes to buying, most of the homes start around $300K and 2,500 square feet. There are a few condo options, fortunately - otherwise there's no way I'd be able to stay in the neighborhood.

Wow, I didn't realize Edgewater had gotten so expensive. Just as a little anecdote, I think there are still cheap finds... I have a friend who just bought a double on West Boulevard and Baltic for $116K. It was in the same family since it was built in the 20s, so the interior's in tact, but it needs a lot of sprucing (hence the cheap price).

 

Back to the topic at hand, I hope it didn't appear that I was subtly bashing Columbus when I said it had a positive self-image. I don't think Columbus has an inflated self-opinion; it seems about right! Positivity is essential for any city, and it's an area where we in Cleveland need a lot of work.

I should clarify that when I say Edgewater, I think of everything from Clifton Boulevard north to the lake, and from West Boulevard to West 117th.

You seem to have an overview of how Cleveland is politically and culturally, but you should come up for at least a week and try and get a feel for the city. Like Mayday said, you should also look at the housing and job market and see if you can find a house and a job you will be happy at. Cleveland is a big city and obviously has ammenities that Columbus doesn't have yet, but you should also look into what Columbus is planning to make life more enjoyable in central Ohio. just my thoughts

You seem to have an overview of how Cleveland is politically and culturally, but you should come up for at least a week and try and get a feel for the city. Like Mayday said, you should also look at the housing and job market and see if you can find a house and a job you will be happy at. Cleveland is a big city and obviously has ammenities that Columbus doesn't have yet, but you should also look into what Columbus is planning to make life more enjoyable in central Ohio. just my thoughts

 

In all fairness, Cleveland also has a lot on the docket "to make life more enjoyable."

Lucky,

 

I write with a perspective of someone who has friends in Columbus and we often visit each other. I'm 38 years old, and most of my friends are in their mid-30s to mid-50s. But we are all urban-minded folk and have been doing the Cleveland-Columbus cultural exchange for the past 15 years or so. One of those friends posts here at UrbanOhio and has lived in both Cleveland and Columbus. I'd be interested in hearing his thoughts as well.

 

Here are some random thoughts...  I do agree that Columbus has a decent urban core, aligned mostly along High Street from German Village north to Clintonville. I've been most impressed with what's been happening the Arena District. My Columbus friends rightfully point to that area with pride.

 

But something strange happens to them when they visit Cleveland. They often made comments of "It's a real city" and "We don't have that in Columbus." What causes them to make those comments?

 

When they've said "It's a real city," we were at:

 

> Tower City Center and looking out the windows toward the bridges spanning the Cuyahoga Valley (even though there isn't much below those bridges!);

 

> After arriving on the Rapid at a crowded West Side Market and hearing a number of different languages spoken (too bad it's not open more than just four days a week and never late into the evening);

 

> Standing at a window in the one of office high-rises downtown, looking over what is a pretty dense central business district (and, of course, it could always be denser);

 

> Riding the Rapid through Tower City station at rush hour, with people and trains coming and going, my travel companion noted "This isn't Ohio -- I feel like I'm on the East Coast";

 

> And, of all places, walking up the hill on Main Avenue from the Flats to the Warehouse District on a busy Friday night, with traffic pounding the 1930s Shoreway viaduct overhead.

 

> My building's seventh-floor rooftop patio on the Fourth of July watching fireworks at Edgewater Park to our east, Lakewood Park to our west and multiple suburban displays to our south. The lights of the Gold Coast high-rises lining the lake shore twinkled beyond on the muggy night. We had a good crowd up there, about half of whom were visiting other residents of my building. They all really enjoyed the urban setting.

 

When they've said "We don't have that in Columbus," we were at:

 

> Lake Erie's shoreline on Cliff Drive (near Edgewater Park) and just sat there on the grass, alternating their views between downtown to the right and the sunset to their left;

> Coventry, Lakewood, Larchmere/Shaker Heights and anywhere else that has large concentrations of apartment buildings, especially old brownstones;

> Various of R&B, jazz, and rock-and-roll clubs, whereas my friends don't care for country music or the music that younger people listen to, both of which seems to be played a lot in Columbus clubs;

> Any Rapid station;

> Jacobs Field, enjoying an evening ball game as the sun set over downtown;

> North Coast Harbor during a recent air show with all the people, sidewalk vendors and general activity on the ground and in the sky;

> The Flats 10 years ago, and the Warehouse District today, taking in the crowd scene which can be great for people watching;

> Shaker Square.

> The Galleria -- I had a few Columbus friends with me, and even though Galleria has too many vacancies, they remarked that it was still much nicer than City Center and then recognized it was the smaller of downtown Cleveland's two "malls." I reminded them of the Arcade, which at the time was still mostly retail. We headed there next.

 

Now, you'll ask if these guys liked Cleveland so much, why don't they live here instead of Columbus? The one that did live here was working here while his family was in Columbus where his wife had a successful business. Another that moved to Columbus and is not happy there has been trying to get transferred here, but may have to wait to move until he retires in a few years. The others all like Columbus and see its potential for continued urbanization.

 

What I think differentiates Cleveland most from Columbus is Cleveland's soul. You can feel this "thing" that's here, and it extends deeply into the community. It's the colorful history (both good and bad) of its old buildings, places and neighborhoods; its colorful, diverse and unpredictable people (who will bitch about the city amongst themselves but defend it to the end among outsiders) and its varied landscape (Midwestern to the west, somewhat Appalachian to the south esp. near Akron, and East Coast/New England to the east).

 

Cleveland is about as organic as an inorganic thing can be.

It's interesting that most of the "real city things" focus around transportation, and especially the Flats.  The Flats, even in its current, semi-abandoned state is such an amazingly kinetic and three dimensional space.  How many places can you see trains rushing past, cars whizzing by over your head, giant freighters manuevering through a narrow twisting river, planes taking off and landing, Rapid Transit carrying people across the valley, and bridges moving up and down or swinging?  And all of this with the downtown skyline looming large over you.

 

It is Cleveland's most unique neighborhood.  The energy it has is unrivaled anywhere I have been, and inimitable.  There will never be another Flats, anywhere.  That is why I think it is key to Cleveland's future as a great city (if we ever are to become one).

Isn't it true that Cleveland has more moving bridges than any other place in the US?

KJP, your post gave me chills. What a beautiful tribute to Cleveland.

The Flats, even in its current, semi-abandoned state

 

I spent quite a bit of time up at the Flats in like '91 and '92 at Nautica and Peabody's but have only driven through there once during the day since.  Why is it semi-abandoned now?  From what I remember the only thing I didn't like so much was that there seemed to be a few too many tacky frat-boy attracting bars which over time I think may have undermined the location's appeal.

 

That is why I think it is key to Cleveland's future as a great city (if we ever are to become one).

 

What elements make for a 'great' city in your mind and which of those elements are lacking in Cleveland?  Which one or two elements is the most critical?

I believe the abandonment started around Summer 2000. There were three people (under the influence) that drowned. In addition the city started busting bars that didn't meet health standards or were beyond their safe capacity. Some clubs closed because they couldn't pay fines or bring the place up to code and others closed from fear. I am sure there are other reasons why some of the others closed.

Let's not forget that the Wolstein's have been buying up much of the East Bank.  The area of greatest abandonment is the area that he owns, and plans to demolish.  Still, the abandonment is very real.

 

I don't think there is a specific set of elements that can consistently be combined to make a great city, it's a "je ne sais quoi" appeal.  I think in general one could say that it is unique, serendipitous, and vibrant neighborhoods, preferably well connected to each other that make up the great city.  Of course, their is no formula for uniqueness and serendipity!

Columbus has soul and history yet their own residents don't realize it.

 

Which is a pity.

I never figured out why Columbus doesn't have a musuem dedicated to its own history. I know they tried to get one for the T&OC Station, but... Columbus does have history. But sometimes I think Cleveland has ghosts!

I love both cities, and don't think it's easy to compare them.  I would kill for the vibrancy that goes along with being a capital city and the home of one of the largest and most storied universities in the country.  Also, most of my neutral friends from high school (Sanusky)/college (OU) prefer Columbus, although they aren't really urbanists (More Easton dwelling types).  Most of my friends from law school (U of Mich) wouldn't be caught dead in either city (they're mostly insecure types that feel like they have to be in brand name cities), but all have been impressed when I've brought them to Cleveland. 

 

A lot of my high school/college buddies love Columbus and bash Cleveland (I think that too often people from one metro or the other bash the other to try to validate their own choices on where to settle).  Obviously, I've chosen Cleveland, but I think there are a lot of unique things to recommend both places, and think people living in both cities are fortunate. 

 

I think we should continue to talk about what makes our cities great, but not at the expense of other places, particularly other places in Ohio.