What elements make for a 'great' city in your mind and which of those elements are lacking in Cleveland?  Which one or two elements is the most critical?

 

That's a very tough question to answer, to narrow it down to one or two items. But if I had to pick just two features, it would be the "Two D's" -- density and diversity.

 

Density is pretty straightforward. It creates synergies, connectivity, a human-scale city, enhances the tax base, limits the extent of infrastructure, promotes accessibility and opportunity, while creating that "thing" (call it a spice, a sense of awe, whatever) we feel when we're in the midst of it all.

 

Diversity is a little more complicated. It relates not just to a variety of people, but of activities, architecture, land uses, transportation, climate, history, and so on.

 

Those are the things I value and Cleveland has some of both. It needs more (and use to have it, with emerging plans slated to provide it), but that's what Cleveland lacks.

The OHS history museum over at the state fairgrounds used to have an exhibit on Columbus history.

 

 

As my initial interest is in the inner-ring suburbs of Cleveland I read with great interest this report

<a href="http://www.lkwdpl.org/focus/wagnerstudy.pdf">Addressing the Difficulties of Inner-Ring Suburbs: A Case Study of Lakewood, Ohio</a>.  The study was published in early 2002 using data up till 2000 and references a quote that caught my interest, “nowhere to build, not much left to tax”.  The document is rather long but I thought it presented some useful questions with which to look at not only Lakewood but other neighborhoods in the city. 

 

Briefly, the study defines a number of characteristics of a city/suburb and examines them in the context of whether or not these characteristics follow observed national trends of Inner-ring Suburbs.  These national trends have generally been negative, population decreasing, crime increasing, infrastructure and housing deteriorating etc.  In the case of Lakewood

the study groups the characteristics into 3 categories:

1. DOES follow Inner-ring Suburb Trends: Population, Racial Diversification, Infrastructure, Crime

2. CLOSE to Inner-ring Suburb Trends: Population Age, Schools, Economic Patterns, Finance and Budgeting

3. DOES NOT follow Inner-ring Suburb Trends: Housing

 

Although my interest is in all the neighborhoods of Cleveland I am curious as to how Lakewood is perceived to be progressing 5 years after the last data set used in the study.  Could I assume anything about the other Inner-ring suburbs of Cleveland both from this study and also from your impressions on the current state of Lakewood?

 

I have spent the past few weekends driving around Cleveland so this really isn't a purely remote research project on my part but this forum seems to be a great mechanism for getting up to speed on the reality of things.  I do appreciate all your comments.

Although I'm not a resident of Lakewood proper, I do live about a quarter-mile from Lakewood's eastern border. For the most part, the only part of the "population decreasing, crime increasing, infrastructure and housing deteriorating" assessment that fits is the population issue.

 

If you look at Lakewood, it's primarily a series of major east-west routes (Edgewater, Lake, Clifton, Detroit, Franklin, Madison) - the socio-economic demographics as well as land uses follow that strata from north to south. Everything north of Detroit is generally residential, with the lakefront being the upper-crust (for lack of a better term). According to the most recent Cleveland Magazine poll of 250 most expensive homes, two were on Lake Avenue - the top being $1.8 million. Detroit Avenue itself is the primary commercial route (main street) which is seeing a lot of new development near the Cleveland border to the east. The only areas where you see anything resembling blight (and we're talking pockets of vacant storefronts or lesser-kept-up homes, not boarded up) would be along parts of Madison Avenue.

 

The thing about Lakewood as you mentioned is that they have few areas to build - but they're doing a good job of rebuilding on sites that have been vacated. The Rockport Square development by Rysar is on Detroit near West 117th and seems to be selling well - it's on the site of a former car dealership.

 

In a nutshell, I'd say Lakewood is doing a good job when it comes to having foresight of the challenges they face.

 

 

As a resident of Lakewood for nine years (near the Gold Coast), I saw the last four years of the data set and the five year since. When I first moved to the neighborhood, we had to contend with three independent (non-chain) residency motels that saw their share of prostitution, drugs and even a murder. Two of the motels were heavily targeted by police until the owners sold to franchise operators of Days Inn and Travelodge. They've both quieted down substantially. The third, the infamous Yorktown Motel, was closed down by the city and the site redeveloped as a senior health care center.

 

Now the big problem at my end of the city (east end) remains south of Detroit Road to near Madison. There have been drugs and assaults.  Police are now cracking down in that area. The Rockport Square development MayDay mentioned is likely to increase housing values in that area and possibly push out some folks who can't afford living there.

 

There also are other developments happening. The school district has begun a major reconstruction or outright replacement of many of its school buildings. And there's the Rosewood Place development. Like Rockport Square, it is being built on the site of a former car dealership though smaller in size. See http://www.ci.lakewood.oh.us/citynews_rosewood.html -- and from that page there is also a link to the Rockport Square development site.

A brand new YMCA us going up on Detroit, and Lakewood is undertaking a major renvation/expansion of its library, and has plans to do a drastic improvement of its lakefront park.  There seem to be a lot of projects going on in Lakewood that will dramatically add to the quality of life for its residents.

^ oops ewoops I forgot about those!

Old topic but worth revisiting at this election time....

 

PRESIDENTIAL POLITICS DATA SERIES

 

The Five Ohios: Part 1

By Tracey Tichnell, Ph.D.

 

Ohio is one of the better-known battle-ground states in the union, but have you heard the saying, “As Ohio goes, so goes the nation?” It’s a phrase that’s oft-repeated during presidential elections.

 

Though it’s often called a “swing state,” it may be more accurate to call Ohio a bellwether, because Ohio’s voting behavior is somewhat predictive (as the above adage would indicate).

 

In fact, Ohio has been the best predictor state in the United States since at least 1964 (that's 13 presidential elections), and Ohio is the only state that consistently picks the candidate that eventually becomes president.

 

So, why is Ohio such a good predictor?

 

MORE:

https://liberal-arts.wright.edu/applied-policy-research-institute/blog/article/the-five-ohios-part-1

https://liberal-arts.wright.edu/applied-policy-research-institute/blog/article/the-five-ohios-part-2

 

Pretty much sums up Ohio....south of the Turnpike is no mans land!  ;) :wave:

Pretty much sums up Ohio....south of the Turnpike is no mans land!  ;) :wave:

No truer words have ever been spoken

This was actually a pretty interesting article, and I'm glad that they included some demographic figures to help build their cases. However, I don't really feel like the state shakes out like the map above describes. Maybe the Red zone is correct, as a lot of SE Ohio has a very Appalachian WVA type of feel to it. But I'd argue that the other 4 regions are more divided by a rural/suburban/urban split than geography. For example, I can understand why Columbus might relate to the high growth, new sprawl that's indicative of the West and Sunbelt. But how would the areas between Cincy and Dayton not be the same? Every time I drive through that area, I feel like it's Texas or something. Just massive subdivisions, strip malls, office developments, etc. stretching on for miles, with little relationship to the home city. The Cin-Day zone feels nothing like either Dayton or Cincinnati, and is entirely its own beast, that closely resembles sunbelt cities. Similarly, I don't know how Hamilton County could be lumped in with the rest of SW Ohio, when it literally shares almost nothing in common with the rest of the region. It's super Catholic,  while Dayton and the rural hinterland counties are strongly Protestant. The economy is different, topography is different, settlement history is different, etc. Cincinnati truly feels like a little city-state, much more than the other cities I've been to in Ohio. State politics is rarely discussed here, seemingly no one cares about Ohio State (Cleveland had two pre-game shows on different channels before the Penn State game 2 weeks ago, and we all know how crazy Cbus gets for OSU), and many people have no connections to other parts of the state. I think there might be 5 Ohios, but I think they're more focused around the urban areas of the state.

^I had a similar reaction, but after thinking about a little more, the article really seems more like a mechanical exercise: can we divide the state up into contiguous regions that resemble in some relevant way national regions? There isn't necessarily a claim that the regions have any particular significance outside that narrow exercise (e.g., internal cohesion). Which makes the whole thing slightly gimmicky. Geography only matters to elections to the extent voting eligibility (e.g., Indianans can't vote for Ohio senators) and the electoral college matter. Otherwise, individual votes are the only relevant unit. Trump votes in Cuyahoga County count just as much as Trump votes in Cincinnati collar counties. For electoral purposes within a geography that matters, differences from place to place are of degree, not kind.

Central Pennsylvania and New York's Southern Tier have more in common these days with the red area of Ohio, too (especially economically). But the U.S.'s Northeast/New England link to Northeast Ohio remains after 200+ years in its economy (or parts thereof), architecture, voting, religion, etc.

It's super Catholic, while Dayton and the rural hinterland counties are strongly Protestant.

 

...wait, wait, wait...Cincinnati is Catholic but Dayton isn't?  I hope you're joking.  The Dayton area is as Catholic as Cincinnati.  If anything, Metro Cincinnati is more Protestant than Dayton due to Kentucky and Indiana.  Even the Northern Miami Valley (Dayton's "Kentucky") is heavily Catholic (Land of the Cross-Tipped Churches --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_the_Cross-Tipped_Churches , etc).

 

In reality, Cincinnati is quintessentially Southwest Ohio.  Dayton is kinda a more Catholic, stagnant, blue-collar extension of Columbus (traditionally Appalachian migrants and African-Americans with white-collar folks moving there for gov't jobs, politically purple metropolitan area, blue city, home of Les Wexner).  Hell, it's solid Ohio State territory:

 

The Dayton region is second largest market in giving to Ohio State athletics outside of home Franklin County, and has more President’s Club and Buckeye Club members than anywhere else besides Columbus, Moody said. The school has more than 8,000 alumni just in Montgomery County.

http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/print-edition/2014/08/29/buckeye-connection-how-the-business-of-ohio-state.html

^ can confirm anectdotally catholicism of dayton over cinci per capita. and mercer county is indeed a quite well known example of rural catholicism in america. also unique around there though as they have the only out and out republican catholics i've ever met.

It's super Catholic, while Dayton and the rural hinterland counties are strongly Protestant.

 

...wait, wait, wait...Cincinnati is Catholic but Dayton isn't?  I hope you're joking.  The Dayton area is as Catholic as Cincinnati.  If anything, Metro Cincinnati is more Protestant than Dayton due to Kentucky and Indiana.  Even the Northern Miami Valley (Dayton's "Kentucky") is heavily Catholic (Land of the Cross-Tipped Churches --> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_of_the_Cross-Tipped_Churches , etc).

 

In reality, Cincinnati is quintessentially Southwest Ohio.  Dayton is kinda a more Catholic, stagnant, blue-collar extension of Columbus (traditionally Appalachian migrants and African-Americans with white-collar folks moving there for gov't jobs, politically purple metropolitan area, blue city, home of Les Wexner).  Hell, it's solid Ohio State territory:

 

The Dayton region is second largest market in giving to Ohio State athletics outside of home Franklin County, and has more President’s Club and Buckeye Club members than anywhere else besides Columbus, Moody said. The school has more than 8,000 alumni just in Montgomery County.

http://www.bizjournals.com/dayton/print-edition/2014/08/29/buckeye-connection-how-the-business-of-ohio-state.html

 

Perhaps I'm wrong about Dayton being less Catholic then.  I had always heard that the Dayton area was heavily Baptist and Protestant, especially compared to Cincinnati.

 

Actually, I decided to do a little Googling, which confirmed what I initially said! Love when that happens.

 

Cincinnati: 26% Catholic

Dayton: 15% Catholic

 

Cincinnati:6% Baptist

Dayton: 11% Baptist

 

The other Protestant denominations are all pretty similar, though Dayton also has a greater percentage of Evangelicals/Non-Denominations (9%) than Cincinnati (6%). Though both percentages are small, we already know that Greater Cincinnati has roughly 5x the Jewish population of Greater Dayton, despite only being roughly 2.5 times the size. As percentages go, Cincy is 1.5% Jewish, Dayton is .50%.  I'd say my initial point holds. Also, NKY is very solidly Catholic.  Once you get out of the suburbs and into the country, though, of course it becomes protestant very quickly. The Diocese of Covington covers all of Northern Kentucky- 14 counties in total. In that territory, 18% of the population is Catholic.  If we were able to isolate for just Kenton, Campbell, and Boone counties, where the Cincy burbs are, the number would be much, much higher, almost certainly.  Even so, 18% is still higher than Metro Dayton's 15%.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Diocese_of_Covington

http://www.bestplaces.net/religion/city/ohio/cincinnati

http://www.bestplaces.net/religion/city/ohio/dayton

^ that's just it i think it also gets catholic pretty quick out in the hinterlands of dayton around mercer there. but yeah that is not dayton.

 

the link info is interesting and not totally surprizing. for me it just goes to show how who you are with and where you go colors your view anectdotally speaking.

^ Yes, anecdotes can be really misleading sometimes.  Cincinnati is famously Catholic, though, which is why I was surprised to read ColDay's response, and decided to do a little research of my own.  Catholic schools are a bigger deal in Cincinnati than just about anywhere else I know of, except maybe St. Louis.  There's a Catholic school festival literally every weekend in the Summer here, and the Friday fish fry events are really big things that even non-Catholics participate in.  Catholic culture is pretty dominant in Cincinnati- much more than anywhere else I've lived. And that's with a pretty minor Hispanic population, which is a major source of growth for Catholicism in the US.

Using numbers, both look around the same, give or take percentage, regarding Catholics and Protestants.  Regarding the Jewish statistic, 1.5 - 0.5% is minimal, at best.  Neither are Cleveland or Pittsburgh.  For example, Montgomery County is over 51% athiest/agnostic/None; Hamilton County is 51% Christian.  Metro Dayton also has a higher percentage of Muslims, Greek Orthodox (double), Buddhist (quadruple, for being 1/2 the metro size), and Hindu than Metro Cincinnati.

 

http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/Hamilton-County-OH.html

http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/Montgomery-County-OH.html

 

Cincinnati's largest suburban counties, Warren and Butler, are Protestant:

http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/Warren-County-OH.html

http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/Butler-County-OH.html

 

Dayton's largest suburban counties, Greene and Miami, are also Protestant:

http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/Greene-County-OH.html

http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/Miami-County-OH.html

 

This changes vastly in the hinterlands as the Miami Valley is Catholic even in far-flung WHIO country:

 

http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/Mercer-County-OH.html (61%!)

http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/Shelby-County-OH.html

 

In Northern Kentucky, outside of, say, the ones that are across the river from the Lager House, WCPO country becomes Protestant quick.

http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/Gallatin-County-KY.html

http://www.city-data.com/county/religion/Boone-County-KY.html

 

This is where I find the difference.  But it's still silly to say "Dayton and the rural hinterland counties are strongly Protestant" when that statistically isn't true, particularly compared to Cincinnati.

^ Yes, anecdotes can be really misleading sometimes.  Cincinnati is famously Catholic, though, which is why I was surprised to read ColDay's response, and decided to do a little research of my own.  Catholic schools are a bigger deal in Cincinnati than just about anywhere else I know of, except maybe St. Louis.  There's a Catholic school festival literally every weekend in the Summer here, and the Friday fish fry events are really big things that even non-Catholics participate in.  Catholic culture is pretty dominant in Cincinnati- much more than anywhere else I've lived. And that's with a pretty minor Hispanic population, which is a major source of growth for Catholicism in the US.

 

Just an FYI, Cincinnati isn't even the most Catholic area in Ohio.  That would belong to Cleveland. We all have Catholic school festivals, fish fry events, and bingo.  I think everybody in the state can claim that on a weekend basis except portions of Southeast Ohio.

 

^ Yes, anecdotes can be really misleading sometimes.  Cincinnati is famously Catholic, though, which is why I was surprised to read ColDay's response, and decided to do a little research of my own.  Catholic schools are a bigger deal in Cincinnati than just about anywhere else I know of, except maybe St. Louis.  There's a Catholic school festival literally every weekend in the Summer here, and the Friday fish fry events are really big things that even non-Catholics participate in.  Catholic culture is pretty dominant in Cincinnati- much more than anywhere else I've lived. And that's with a pretty minor Hispanic population, which is a major source of growth for Catholicism in the US.

 

 

^ i've never heard of catholicism in cinci, much less being famous. so speaking of anectdotal there you go. but i did know high schools in general, parochial or not, are a big thing in cinci, much more so than anywhere else i have ever heard of. in fact weirdly so. in a good way.

 

i would say catholic culture is not as pervasive around sw ohio as it is in ne ohio and your site backs that (29.91% in cle and similar in the metro). not as much difference as i thought though -- those anectdotal observations again lol.

 

so it looks like its kind of a wash with the catholics, well perhaps not if you throw in nky & akron-canton-youngstown, but i should actually get some work done today, so let's just call it a wash.

 

edit -- as colday jumped in

^ Yes, anecdotes can be really misleading sometimes.  Cincinnati is famously Catholic, though, which is why I was surprised to read ColDay's response, and decided to do a little research of my own.  Catholic schools are a bigger deal in Cincinnati than just about anywhere else I know of, except maybe St. Louis.  There's a Catholic school festival literally every weekend in the Summer here, and the Friday fish fry events are really big things that even non-Catholics participate in.  Catholic culture is pretty dominant in Cincinnati- much more than anywhere else I've lived. And that's with a pretty minor Hispanic population, which is a major source of growth for Catholicism in the US.

 

 

^ i've never heard of catholicism in cinci, much less being famous. so speaking of anectdotal there you go. but i did know high schools in general, parochial or not, are a big thing in cinci, much more so than anywhere else i have ever heard of. in fact weirdly so. in a good way.

 

i would say catholic culture is not as pervasive around sw ohio as it is in ne ohio and your site backs that (29.91% in cle and similar in the metro). not as much difference as i thought though -- those anectdotal observations again lol.

 

so it looks like its kind of a wash with the catholics, well perhaps not if you throw in nky & akron-canton-youngstown, but i should actually get some work done today, so let's just call it a wash.

 

edit -- as colday jumped in

 

I think the difference in Cle and Cinci is that Catholic Culture in Cleveland is the culture since it is a bigger catholic and eastern orthodox town. The Eastern European influence of Cle brought people over who shared a religion but had other cultural differences so it manifests itself otherways. You do not see as much Catholic because everyone was Catholic to some extent in Cle, at least this was my perspective when I lived there.

 

In Cinci, there was less of a melting pot and when there was, it was many more religions coming to the area. When it was settled, it was a very WASP city and that influence lived until the mid 20th century. There were a lot of Catholics from Ireland and Germany who came to Cinci but they were often second class citizens. They formed their own schools and culture and grew that culture until they grew into significant power brokers in the city. In Cincy, Catholics had to face much more discrimination than those in Cleveland. This is partially why you see the strong HS parochial phenomenon or with festivals and other events.

 

 

^ well that certainly makes a lot of sense and jibes with my experiences in both corners of the state.

 

onlyas i say though i always understood 'the high school thing' in cinci or whatever you call it to be about all of them, not just parochial schools in particular. like you are always gonna get asked about that down there if you are from there.

 

 

***

 

look how red that map gets in the south. not surprizing, but i did think there were at least a few pockets of catholic counties here and there. i guess not.

^ Yes, anecdotes can be really misleading sometimes.  Cincinnati is famously Catholic, though, which is why I was surprised to read ColDay's response, and decided to do a little research of my own.  Catholic schools are a bigger deal in Cincinnati than just about anywhere else I know of, except maybe St. Louis.  There's a Catholic school festival literally every weekend in the Summer here, and the Friday fish fry events are really big things that even non-Catholics participate in.  Catholic culture is pretty dominant in Cincinnati- much more than anywhere else I've lived. And that's with a pretty minor Hispanic population, which is a major source of growth for Catholicism in the US.

 

Just an FYI, Cincinnati isn't even the most Catholic area in Ohio.  That would belong to Cleveland. We all have Catholic school festivals, fish fry events, and bingo.  I think everybody in the state can claim that on a weekend basis except portions of Southeast Ohio.

 

 

If anything, that map demonstrates my point about Cincinnati acting like a city-state of sorts.  The core 4 counties in OH, plus the 3 in NKY and Dearborn in IN are all Catholic.  Leave that little radius, and things change. The only red (Baptist) county in SW OH is in Metro Dayton. There are such small numbers of Hindus, Orthodox, and Buddhists in the region for any of those to really be noted.  I don't really know how it's contestable that Cincinnati has a greater Catholic presence and influence than Dayton, when one metro is 26% Catholic, and the other is 15%. To claim that Mercer County, a county that is definitely on the periphery of what anyone would consider 'Dayton' is evidence that the rural hinterlands surrounding the city are more Catholic is a huge stretch.  It's a county of 40,000 people and again, pretty far away from Montgomery County.

I don't think of Columbus is a very Catholic place. Columbus is quite un-religious outside of poverty-stricken areas so I think most people around town aren't claiming religious affiliation except for Catholics in the wealthier areas.

I don't think of Columbus is a very Catholic place. Columbus is quite un-religious outside of poverty-stricken areas so I think most people around town aren't claiming religious affiliation except for Catholics in the wealthier areas.

 

Columbus has the majority catholic because it is a city and most Catholics live in urban/suburban areas. That said, it is not the same level of Cincy/Cle. Honestly, I was a little surprised to see it as the largest religion in the region given that Columbus developed later than Cle and Cincy and did not have as many migrants from traditionally Catholic portions of Europe as the other cities. This could be a more recent phenomenon over the past 30 years.

There are such small numbers of Hindus, Orthodox, and Buddhists in the region for any of those to really be noted.

 

And yet you posted the significantly small Jewish population of SW Ohio. That's the point.  It's insignificant. 

 

Preble County, that Baptist county you pointed out, is not in Metro Dayton (neither MSA or CSA, though it is in the media market).  Those Baptist counties in Northern Kentucky (Gallatin, Grant, etc) are in Cincinnati's MSA.  Mercer County, etc are in Dayton's media market.  Thus, it's quite noticeable when a "fish fry" or whatnot Catholic is going on in Dayton media.

 

Lastly, Metro Cincinnati is not 26% Catholic and Metro Dayton is not 15% Catholic.  Numerically, Cincinnati MSA is 19% (approx. 412,500 Catholics), Dayton MSA is 13% (approx. 104,000 Catholics).  A 6% difference is not significant by any stretch.  Thus, this...

 

It's (Cincinnati) super Catholic, while Dayton and the rural hinterland counties are strongly Protestant.

 

...is inaccurate on both ends.  Ironically, Dayton's hinterland is the most Catholic (the more north you go), while Cincinnati is not "super" Catholic, unless you think 2/10 people in a region = "super" Catholic.

 

And yet you posted the significantly small Jewish population of SW Ohio. That's the point.  It's insignificant. 

 

The Jewish population is small both in terms of gross numbers and percentages, but the impact on the community has been significant in Cincinnati. Many of the cultural institutions in Cincinnati exist in large part because of Jews. Krohn Conservatory, Rosenthal CAC, Hebrew Union College and its Skirball Museum and Klau Library, etc. 27,000 (Cin) Jews vs 5,000 (Day) is significant, even if both represent small percentages.  Obviously, Muslim and Hindu immigrants came later to both cities, and therefore have less of a cultural impact. Neither city has a large Orthodox Christian community.

 

Preble County, that Baptist county you pointed out, is not in Metro Dayton (neither MSA or CSA, though it is in the media market).  Those Baptist counties in Northern Kentucky (Gallatin, Grant, etc) are in Cincinnati's MSA.  Mercer County, etc are in Dayton's media market.  Thus, it's quite noticeable when a "fish fry" or whatnot Catholic is going on in Dayton media.

 

Preble County is immediately adjacent to Montgomery County.  It might not be in the same MSA due to commuting reasons or whatever, but an adjacent county to a metro's core county certainly speaks more about the makeup than Mercer County, which is two whole counties away from Montgomery, and only has 40,000 residents to boot.

 

Lastly, Metro Cincinnati is not 26% Catholic and Metro Dayton is not 15% Catholic.  Numerically, Cincinnati MSA is 19% (approx. 412,500 Catholics), Dayton MSA is 13% (approx. 104,000 Catholics).  A 6% difference is not significant by any stretch.  Thus, this...

 

Compare core county to core county and you get 26% for Cincy and 15% for Dayton.  That is significant. Again, the portion of the metro that you cite as being the least Catholic area (NKY) is still 18% Catholic, and that's including many counties that aren't in the Cincy MSA, and that would be coded Red (Baptist) in the map you posted above.

 

I don't know why you're taking such exception to this information. It's not a contest, and one region isn't better than the other simply because they have more Catholics.  But the numbers are the numbers. I overstated Dayton's protestantism in my first comment, but the facts remain that Cincinnati has more Catholics (fact), a greater percentage of the population that is Catholic (fact), and therefore has more of a Catholic influence. Hamilton County is 26% Black, a demographic that has very few (not none, but very few) Catholics. Montgomery County is 21% Black. So even with a greater block of protestants/non-Catholics, Cincinnati/HamCo still has nearly 10% more than Dayton/Montgomery County.

The Jewish population is small both in terms of gross numbers and percentages, but the impact on the community has been significant in Cincinnati. Many of the cultural institutions in Cincinnati exist in large part because of Jews. Krohn Conservatory, Rosenthal CAC, Hebrew Union College and its Skirball Museum and Klau Library, etc. 27,000 (Cin) Jews vs 5,000 (Day) is significant, even if both represent small percentages.  Obviously, Muslim and Hindu immigrants came later to both cities, and therefore have less of a cultural impact. Neither city has a large Orthodox Christian community.

 

The same percentage game could be played regarding Greek Orthodox's influence on Dayton or percentage of the Flying Spaghetti Monster.  The point is that bringing up Cincinnati's small Jewish community versus Dayton's even smaller Jewish community is irrelevant to the point about how "super" Catholic Cincinnati is.  If anything, having both metros not having sizeable Jewish populations makes the Five Ohio's link KJP posted more relevant towards the Midwest comparison.

 

Preble County is immediately adjacent to Montgomery County.  It might not be in the same MSA due to commuting reasons or whatever, but an adjacent county to a metro's core county certainly speaks more about the makeup than Mercer County, which is two whole counties away from Montgomery, and only has 40,000 residents to boot.

 

And yet it isn't in the metropolitan area, unlike those MSA counties in Kentucky for Cincinnati.  Preble, Mercer, and who cares are all in Dayton's media market, not metropolitan area.  Preble and Mercer County are within Dayton's influence yet neither are more "connected" to Dayton as they both are small 40,000ish rural counties (hell, western Montgomery County is rural).  The point with Mercer County is you stated "Dayton's hinterlands was Protestant" and that map says otherwise with exception to Preble County.  OTOH, Cincinnati's "hinterlands" are certainly more "non-Catholic" aside from the core counties due to Kentucky and anything east of Clermont County.

 

But the numbers are the numbers. I overstated Dayton's protestantism in my first comment

 

And really, that's it.  Core counties are irrelevant if you brought up hinterlands.

 

I honestly really don't care about who has more Catholics; I just found the idea that Cincinnati as a city/state in SW Ohio versus Dayton, which you basically implied belonged in SW Ohio because it's...6% less Catholic?...silly.  Cincinnati is quintessentially Southwest Ohio.

 

Similarly, I don't know how Hamilton County could be lumped in with the rest of SW Ohio, when it literally shares almost nothing in common with the rest of the region. It's super Catholic,  while Dayton and the rural hinterland counties are strongly Protestant. The economy is different, topography is different, settlement history is different, etc.

 

A). It clearly shares everything in common with the rest of the region, statistically.

B). It isn't super Catholic.

C). Dayton region isn't strongly Protestant.  That map is more blue than Papa Smurf (with the hat being Preble County)

D). The economy is quintessentially SW Ohio.  A mix of rust-belt and white-collar.

E). All of Metropolitan SW Ohio is hilly, ravines, valleys, flatlands, watersheds, and horrid humidity.  Again, Hamilton County belongs in SW Ohio.

F). Settlement history of all significant SW Ohio cities (except Springfield) were around a boat and a river.

 

...and that's it.

It's pointless to respond, but Cincinnati has the 6th largest catholic school system in the country. On the West Side and NKY, it's very common for people to describe where they're from by the parish they're in. Dayton doesn't even have its own archdiocese...it's covered by Cincinnati's. And yes, smaller regions have their own dioceses. Covington has its own, after all.

 

I maintain that Cincinnati is more like a city-state than most other places in Ohio, and religion doesn't have all that much to do with it. Simply put, Cincinnatians are hyper-local people. We have food that can't be found other places. We have our own pro sports teams and own college teams, meaning people don't care much about the Browns/Buckeyes/Indians. No other city in Ohio has a topography even remotely similar to Cincinnati's (I've been to Dayton many times, it's literally nothing remotely close to the hills of Cincinnati). The ties to Kentucky are ingrained in Cincinnati, but then NKY feels distinctly separate from the rest of KY too. Cincinnati was the first Western boom town. I must have missed the lesson in Ohio history where Dayton's early economy was built by steamboat construction. The area in the 275 beltway is an odd, unique place. That's not to say that everywhere else is generic and bland, but it seems to me that Cincinnati defies the state more than any other Ohio city. It's also the only major Ohio city that is literally built on a state line, but I'm sure that'll be contested, too.

Cincinnati likes the Buckeyes.

^ I mean I certainly do, but in general, no, they don't receive anywhere near the level of support here that they do in basically every other part of the state. A good friend of mine moved to Cincy two years ago. He's from Toledo, but went to OSU and then stayed in a Columbus for 5 years before moving to Cincinnati. He's a huge OSU fan, and he constantly laments how no one in Cincinnati cares about the Buckeyes, and how a bunch of guys at his job actually hate OSU and give him S**t for liking them all the time. There's his weird, misguided hate from a lot of UC people towards OSU. That's actually a very common thing. UC alums and students seem to resent OSU, and I've gotten comments about wearing Buckeye gear in Clifton before. My friend said even Toledo, which has a good number of Michigan fans, is much more enthusiastic about OSU than Cincinnati. The news here will often report highlights of UC and even UK ahead of OSU, much to my disliking.

 

People also think the Crosstown Shootout (UC vs Xavier) is like some nationally known sports event. I honestly thought, as a kid, that the Crosstown Shootout was like on par with the Super Bowl. Cincinnati is weird.

I think that Cincinnati Catholics think that the city is more Catholic than it is.  This is in large part because the all-boys high schools and the GCL sports leagues tend to dominate local HS sports.  This is because a 1,000-student all-boys school has twice as many boys as a 1,000-student coed school.  The Catholic schools are also able to "recruit" from outside of a school district.  For example, at least 10% of St. Xavier's students commute from Kentucky and Indiana, something no public school could dream of. 

 

The Dayton Catholic schools are in a different sports league than the Cincinnati schools, so they do not play each other very often.  Actually this goes for public as well as Catholic schools -- there aren't really any Cincinnati-Dayton high school sports rivalries that I'm aware of. 

 

 

I agree that OSU has virtually zero following in Cincinnati, and that OSU superfans are generally ostracized.  Historically there was a strong link to Notre Dame, but I think that has dissipated a bit. 

 

There is also the weird fandom for Xavier basketball.  Catholics do not automatically follow Xavier, which seems to have a pretty widespread fan base.  I'd say many Xavier fans barely know that it's a Catholic school. 

Columbus has a very small percentage of students attending Catholic schools as compared to the other 2Cs.

There's his weird, misguided hate from a lot of UC people towards OSU. That's actually a very common thing. UC alums and students seem to resent OSU, and I've gotten comments about wearing Buckeye gear in Clifton before.

 

That seems like a new thing than came about during the Brian Kelley era.

Ultimately, Ohio is a bunch of disparate cities/regions that happened to have a border drawn around them. They feel like different parts of the country because they were different parts of the country before 1803. Which is a big reason why Ohio is so poorly-defined in the minds of the rest of the country, and hell even among other Ohioans. I'm sure the differences between the C's and the second-tier cities was even more pronounced before the Great Homogenization post-WWII. As someone who has lived for various lengths of times in various corners of the state, really the only factors that tie the state together are the manufacturing jobs (and even the industries represented are different across the state) and some abstract loyalty to the idea of "Ohio-ness" that somehow holds the state together even though relatively few people travel outside their respective corner of the state. So in that regard, there are five Ohios because there are... five Ohios. None of the five Ohios are more or less prone to feeling like a city-state, because in many ways they already are. Cincinnati just happens to be loudest about it.  :-P

Basically the only thing visually linking the state are the license plates, since people don't really like the flag, and our license plates have always sucked.  I've been telling people for years that Ohio could completely rebrand itself by ditching the current flag and doing a new flag and license plates with the serpent mount on them. 

I agree that OSU has virtually zero following in Cincinnati, and that OSU superfans are generally ostracized.  Historically there was a strong link to Notre Dame, but I think that has dissipated a bit. 

 

There is also the weird fandom for Xavier basketball.  Catholics do not automatically follow Xavier, which seems to have a pretty widespread fan base.  I'd say many Xavier fans barely know that it's a Catholic school. 

 

There's nothing weird about the fandom for Xavier basketball.  It's a pretty specific group, heavily centered on alumni and people connected with the school, but there is a bit broader support because the program has been consistently good since about 1980.  We fully understand that if the Bearcats are good in basketball, they will tend to pick up the casual fans looking to support a winner.  But now that XU is in a serious upswing (and is now playing in what is likely a better conference than UC, who really suffered as a result of all the conference realignment), it's beginning to pick up a bit more steam outside of the core fan base.  But the program has a top-shelf arena (there's a reason the Cavs have played preseason games at Cintas), draws very well, and has a very good national reputation.  Of those 10,000 people at each game, I'd say 95% of them know it's a Catholic school.  Any trip on campus or to Cintas lets you know your not at a state school....

 

 

 

 

Columbus has a very small percentage of students attending Catholic schools as compared to the other 2Cs.

 

Cleveland is interesting in that dynamic. It has a large portion attending grammar school but they tend to fall off in high school more. I noticed that while there were a lot of Catholic schools in the area, they tended to be smaller than Cincinnati's and more concentrated in older neighborhoods.

 

Also it is definitely more pronounced in Cincy because the Cincy diocese is the 8th largest Catholic School system in the country (and that does not even include the Catholic Schools in Northern Kentucky). So if you take a metro that ranks around 28 or so, cut off about 1/3 of the region who is not in the Cincy Diocese, and you still have the 8th largest school system, it feels a lot bigger no matter what the Catholic population in the city may be. 

^But you have to remember that the dioceses don't overlap the metro areas. The Archdiocese of Cincinnati includes the Dayton metro, and the Diocese of Cleveland contains Akron. And as a matter of clarification, an archdiocese doesn't mean that that is "more Catholic" than the others or anything, it just means that it was the original diocese (and still has some extra administrative duties) because Cincinnati was the only big city out in the Province of Cincinnati (aka Ohio) until the pope subdivided the state into other dioceses.

 

Cleveland's Catholic school tradition is just as strong as Cincinnati's but it just so happens that really only Ignatius and Ed's get the attention, so everyone forgets about the other ones out in the suburbs. Beaumont is the effective equivalent to Summit Country Day. And John Carroll is a good school (shoutout to John Cranley :-P), it just doesn't get any attention like Xavier does because it doesn't have any big-time sports teams. Xavier in my mind is Catholic the same way UD is Catholic -- it's "Catholic" but no one in the region really cares or makes it the sole identifier of the school.

Basically the only thing visually linking the state are the license plates, since people don't really like the flag, and our license plates have always sucked.  I've been telling people for years that Ohio could completely rebrand itself by ditching the current flag and doing a new flag and license plates with the serpent mount on them.

Our license plates have always been terrible but don't ever touch the flag.  We have one of the best state flags in the country. 

^But you have to remember that the dioceses don't overlap the metro areas. The Archdiocese of Cincinnati includes the Dayton metro, and the Diocese of Cleveland contains Akron. And as a matter of clarification, an archdiocese doesn't mean that that is "more Catholic" than the others or anything, it just means that it was the original diocese (and still has some extra administrative duties) because Cincinnati was the only big city out in the Province of Cincinnati (aka Ohio) until the pope subdivided the state into other dioceses.

 

Cleveland's Catholic school tradition is just as strong as Cincinnati's but it just so happens that really only Ignatius and Ed's get the attention, so everyone forgets about the other ones out in the suburbs. Beaumont is the effective equivalent to Summit Country Day. And John Carroll is a good school (shoutout to John Cranley :-P), it just doesn't get any attention like Xavier does because it doesn't have any big-time sports teams. Xavier in my mind is Catholic the same way UD is Catholic -- it's "Catholic" but no one in the region really cares or makes it the sole identifier of the school.

 

I don't think Xavier University has anything to do with it either. Cleveland has multiple Catholic Universities in the area.

It's really not that huge of a difference. Enrollment in both diocese's school districts is around 45,000 for elementary and secondary schools, and I'm sure even if you wash out Dayton and Akron's schools they'd be neck and neck. Cincinnati has 114 schools in 14 counties, and Cleveland has 115 schools in 8 counties. Cincinnati might be a bit denser in distribution of Catholic schools when you include in Covington but I don't think "Catholic density" really changes much. I think it was mentioned earlier, and I'd agree with, that it has more to do with high school football than almost any other factor in terms of how "important" a school seems, rather than it's religious affiliation.

Private schools in general are a huge thing in Cincinnati. Most are Catholic, but not all. I read that a roughly a quarter of all school aged children in Greater Cincinnati attend private school, which is a rate only second to St. Louis. The only other place I've heard the "where'd you go to high school?" question being as pervasive as it is in Cincinnati is St. Louis, so I guess there's some kind of link there.

 

Thinking about Catholic high schools in NKY, there's Cov Cath, Notre Dame Academy, Covington Latin, Newport Central Catholic, Villa Madonna, Bishop Brossart, Holy Cross, and St. Henry's. There could be others, but that's what's coming to mind now. If the Cincinnati diocese runs the 6th or 8th (seen both) largest Catholic school system in the country, I wonder how that would ranking would change if you added in these schools (plus the scores of elementary schools that feed these high schools). 8 high schools is fairly significant.

UD and Xavier are very different places.  One is a party school, the other is not.  In fact, Xavier has always appeared to me to be one of the most boring places to go to college I'm aware of.  That said, seemingly all Catholic institutional architecture from mid-century through now seems to be that same uniform beige, all across the country. 

It's really not that huge of a difference. Enrollment in both diocese's school districts is around 45,000 for elementary and secondary schools, and I'm sure even if you wash out Dayton and Akron's schools they'd be neck and neck. Cincinnati has 114 schools in 14 counties, and Cleveland has 115 schools in 8 counties. Cincinnati might be a bit denser in distribution of Catholic schools when you include in Covington but I don't think "Catholic density" really changes much. I think it was mentioned earlier, and I'd agree with, that it has more to do with high school football than almost any other factor in terms of how "important" a school seems, rather than it's religious affiliation.

 

Columbus and its suburbs also don't have the gigantic 1500+ student high schools, both public and private. We split them and build new ones elsewhere in the district when they get that size.

UD and Xavier are very different places.  One is a party school, the other is not.  In fact, Xavier has always appeared to me to be one of the most boring places to go to college I'm aware of.  That said, seemingly all Catholic institutional architecture from mid-century through now seems to be that same uniform beige, all across the country.

 

Beige is the least sinful of all colors. Drives down the premarital sex on campus.

^Not like that whoreish red at UC

UD and Xavier are very different places.  One is a party school, the other is not.  In fact, Xavier has always appeared to me to be one of the most boring places to go to college I'm aware of.  That said, seemingly all Catholic institutional architecture from mid-century through now seems to be that same uniform beige, all across the country. 

 

As a Xavier grad, I'm going to assume that your knowledge here is based on your perception, not actual experience.  XU is not like going to Ohio U or whatever, but it's not BYU, either.  In fact, it's not a dry campus.  There's a pub run by the school on campus and alcohol is allowed, even in dorms, when you are of age.  (At least those were the rules when I was there.)  Throw in the fact that in addition to whatever parties are going on around campus (in the various student-rented houses in North Avondale and Norwood), the close proximity to UC, and even the proximity to Miami, and you have a pretty eventful college experience. 

 

But don't let that get in the way of your narrative....