I'm really happy an office is moving in there.  At the same time, it's a relocation from elsewhere downtown and I'd still prefer to see a department store in that space.  Wishful thinking.

I'm really happy an office is moving in there.  At the same time, it's a relocation from elsewhere downtown and I'd still prefer to see a department store in that space.  Wishful thinking.

 

A department store??  As UO number 1 shopaholic, I cannot say I want to see a department store in a 25k sq. ft. space.  Even if it was the entire ground floor (48k Sq. ft.- 20k +25k+3k) is tiny and probably would not be feasible or profitable.

I'm really happy an office is moving in there. At the same time, it's a relocation from elsewhere downtown and I'd still prefer to see a department store in that space. Wishful thinking.

 

A department store?? As UO number 1 shopaholic, I cannot say I want to see a department store in a 25k sq. ft. space. Even if it was the entire ground floor (48k Sq. ft.- 20k +25k+3k) is tiny and probably would not be feasible or profitable.

 

So you're the HSIC?

That's too bad.  Are the operating department store spaces in NY, Chicago and Cincy that much bigger?

That's too bad. Are the operating department store spaces in NY, Chicago and Cincy that much bigger?

 

Yes.  As an easy reference, the typical 1-story Target is approximately 125,000 square feet.

I'm really happy an office is moving in there. At the same time, it's a relocation from elsewhere downtown and I'd still prefer to see a department store in that space. Wishful thinking.

 

A department store?? As UO number 1 shopaholic, I cannot say I want to see a department store in a 25k sq. ft. space. Even if it was the entire ground floor (48k Sq. ft.- 20k +25k+3k) is tiny and probably would not be feasible or profitable.

 

So you're the HSIC?

 

 

You are a funny girl.

So you're the HSIC?

LMAO!!! 

 

 

That's too bad.  Are the operating department store spaces in NY, Chicago and Cincy that much bigger?

 

HELL YES!

 

Macy's herald square has 2,150,000 sq. ft of selling space!  IIRC, (this is from memory so I could be off) downtown Higbee's and Halle's had between 500-650k selling space each.

So Taylors was always just tiny?  I don't want to get fixated on this space, I just want downtown department stores.  Everybody's talking about ways to reuse these spaces and they never mention actual department stores.

So Taylors was always just tiny?  I don't want to get fixated on this space, I just want downtown department stores.  Everybody's talking about ways to reuse these spaces and they never mention actual department stores.

 

Nobody here want's a Barney's Department Store downtown than me!  However, Anchor department stores have been mentioned in OTHER threads.  There is a complex formula of "foot traffic", density, affluence, "destination-location" and residents to support a department store.

So Taylors was always just tiny? I don't want to get fixated on this space, I just want downtown department stores. Everybody's talking about ways to reuse these spaces and they never mention actual department stores.

 

Taylor's wasn't tiny... but like all the other downtown department stores, it was on multiple floors, once you remove those upper floors from the equation, it's not really possible to host a department store.

Not sure if this was mentioned, but it looks like they have started working on the Euclid facade. Scaffolding is up on the eastern end.

Not sure if this was mentioned, but it looks like they have started working on the Euclid facade. Scaffolding is up on the eastern end.

 

Yeah, the Mayor alerted us earlier.  But it never hurts to repeat good information.  ;)

I really don't think there are any more traditional department store spaces left available.

668 - residential

Higbees - Convention & Visitors Bureau / Key IT offices

May Co. - Cadillac Ranch

Sterlings - All office

Halle Building - Offices

 

I think if one comes it will have to be an add on to tower city / new construction as part of a warehouse district project... but that is a topic of conversation for another thread.  :wink:

Don't forget that the city of Cincinnati directly subsidizes some of their downtown stores - can you imagine if Cleveland handed a $6.6 million check over to a luxury retailer like Saks?!? It's not as if the playing field is level here.

That's why I'm hoping at least one of the traditional department store spaces holds out, i.e. doesn't go residential/office except for the bottom floor.  If Cincy can support downtown shopping we should be able to as well.  Conversely to the "should we put one" equation mentioned above, I think there's a limit to how many people will live downtown BEFORE a department store goes in.  Thus I think getting one should be an A#1 priority for the city.     

 

Its easier said than done.  Granted, in my opinion and professional experience, Dillard's is poorly managed!

 

HOWEVER, people in Cleveland (as reported in the Plain Dealer) don't want to shop downtown.  If Dillard's, the Galleria and TC had the type of foot traffic and more importantly high sales, then another department store would have seriously considered moving in when Dillard's closed.  They would wonder why one department store would abandon a stable market.

 

In addition, other stores with no representation in downtown Cleveland would have contacted commercial brokers for space in close proximity.

Don't forget that the city of Cincinnati directly subsidizes some of their downtown stores - can you imagine if Cleveland handed a $6.6 million check over to a luxury retailer like Saks?!? It's not as if the playing field is level here.

 

I think Indianapolis, DC, Baltimore, Sacramento and Pittsburgh have or had subsidy's in place to retain department stores.

actually there is no chicken or egg here... retail (or at least the way you are envisioning it) has clearly spoken.  They will not come until there are certain thresholds met.  It stinks, butt that's just the way it is right now.  Though I have heard talk of trying to get together (as some people were talking about up thread) some sort of city retail incentive program.  That being said.  There simply aren't going to be any department stores downtown for awhile.  It stinks, but it's just something we're going to have to get used to for a while.

zero

zero

 

That's my point.  There is currently NO DEMAND.  So why would anyone spend money to enter a market if those in the market to lose money?  Keep in mind it was earlier stated that downtown is attractive to younger people and 60% of UO members are under 30 (http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php/topic,12304.0.html) so how are you "whippersnappers" going to support the businesses that enter the downtown shopping market.  You've got to be ~70% or better of the sales with 20 percent coming from within the region and 10% unique visitors.

 

The 80's "if we build it they will come" mentally is not applicable in the age of the internet.

 

I love you kids spunk and attitude, but this is all about Dollar$ and Cent$.

I thought it was about "Sense"?  :-D

^It's just not happening now. period. end of story.  let's try to keep this to 668.  oh and for what it's worth, though tower city limps along, it still exists.  And I can handle most of my "needs" with brooks brothers and johnston and murphy.  It's not all dollar stores in there.

^^ yeah Cinci still has it, but 10 years ago cbus and cleveland did too.  Unfortunately, in this respect I thinks Cinci is on the back end of the curve- if macy's wasn't based from here would saks and macy's still be downtown?

While you look at all of these american retailers,you must also look at European retailers. With the euro coming down,it would be feasible to attempt to convince a  few small high end retalier to open a  flag ship store in Cleveland. Give them a  good incentive.They could be persuade right now.

 

There  is  actually a very good designer shoe store in southern Austria,what would be a great hit in Cleveland. :speech: :banger:

How about a store called Grammar 101

valentino you are right. there are all kinds of euro & otherwise funky yet more middle range shops that could open when downtown hits a certain level of residential (i have no idea what level that would be, probably varies by retailer). uniqlo from japan is a good example. new to the region, yet still familiar clothing. stuff like filenes and tj maxx are not awful either. i'm afraid feb & the warehouse district need redeveloped before we see this kind of stuff, not just euclid, but yet at the same time its all not too far off to imagine.

 

valentino you are right. there are all kinds of euro & otherwise funky yet more middle range shops that could open when downtown hits a certain level of residential (i have no idea what level that would be, probably varies by retailer). uniqlo from japan is a good example. new to the region, yet still familiar clothing. stuff like filenes and tj maxx are not awful either. i'm afraid feb & the warehouse district need redeveloped before we see this kind of stuff, not just euclid, but yet at the same time its all not too far off to imagine.

 

 

So mrnyc, a store like uniqlo isn't going to appeal to Cleveland as we are not a major international market/gateway.  IIRC, NYC is there only North American Store.

 

Shit! - let me stop and we can discuss this in the other thread.

Right now is the time to explore retail. With the euro coming down the likelihood of the dollars to overcome the euro is great,within the next 6 to 8 months. Take for example the atrium is perfect area for a euro mid range retailer.You have about 2000 active professionals in the area,and growing,plus about 25,000 office workers who have money to burn. Its about making it the place to be. This is were the city sucks. They actually should be marketing it this way.

327 - I worke in commercial real estate here for a bank in cleveland - so I know a bit about this.  Retailers typically look at population within so many miles AS WELL as income of those individuals "spending power". 

 

Although, I havne't been involved in any retailing discussions for any downtown retail developent - I would guess that even though the '5-mile' rule dealing with population can be met - the income level can not.

 

Even though many of us live in the city limits and i'm assuming make OK salaries - we are the minority.  The 5 miles outside of the CBD are pretty low income - actually most all falls in the "seriously distressed low income" housing tract.  Although there are pockets of wealth within downtown, Ohio City, and Tremont - the vast majority  does not.

 

The more stable incomes are found in the outlining 'hoods of the city (westpark, old brooklyn) and therefore are closer aligned to the suburban retail near them (Brooklyn, Parma, Fairview Park, Rocky River, etc)

 

Just my two sense on this.  I think downtown needs to build a more stable higher income population until retailers will be too excited.

^Bingo.

I too agree and nobody here wants to power shop more than I do!

^Vast amounts of cheap land, easy access, large parking lots with free parking, fast food with drive thrus all in a setting that people are used to seeing.  It's a mindset that a lot of people have... they feel comfortable in a place like steelyard.  I was talking with a college friend the other day who happens to be from Avon Lake.  I told her that I had moved downtown and will eventually be working in Euclid and she replied, "It's so weird that you LIVE downtown and WORK in a suburb.  I can't even imagine doing that!  It's just so backwards to me!"  The status quo to her is live in the suburbs and work downtown.  I believe the same thing applies to retail.  People shop at large malls because it's the status quo... it's what is right to them. 

 

People don't like to shop outside their comfort zone!

I agree.  Free parking is probably the #1 reason Steelyard is doing well, the other is everything being grouped all together in one location.

^Epic fail is right.  I'd like to see Starks WHD plan take shape, but of course that isn't going to happen for quite some time.  I'd love it if we could get a few anchor stores on corners of the blocks with a parking garage hidden behind the new mixed use buildings.  Put in a 'U' shaped narrow pedestrian only alley for retail and restaurants to give it a more comfortable almost European atmosphere.  All 4-8 story buildings mixing up the height so it doesn't look big and blocky.  Someday......

^Epic fail is right.  I'd like to see Starks WHD plan take shape, but of course that isn't going to happen for quite some time.  I'd love it if we could get a few anchor stores on corners of the blocks with a parking garage hidden behind the new mixed use buildings.  Put in a 'U' shaped narrow pedestrian only alley for retail and restaurants to give it a more comfortable almost European atmosphere.  All 4-8 story buildings mixing up the height so it doesn't look big and blocky.  Someday......

 

I would love that to happen on Huron and for it to start on Euclid between PS and East 6.

"Steelyard was designed to give the central city a suburban-type shopping option because that's what Campbell thought everyone wanted, same reason she OK'd all that suburban housing by the Clinic."

 

327, I think it was during the Mike White administration when most of the hideous suburban housing pop-ed up near the clinic in an effort to re-populate some of the empty land around there (lots were sold for $1).  So they put suburban houses on 3 city lots to try to lure "suburbanites" back to the city.

 

I appreciate your somewhat naive optimism, and do keep us posted of your endeavor. 

Pitsburgh is also a good city to look at as far as prevalence of department stores downtown.  I think some may have closed since I was last there, but still it was impressive how many were still downtown (one thread a while back had talked about why that was).

 

Also, if you ever have the opportunity at Cleveland State, take a Ned Hill, Urban Economics class at the Levin college.  He is a brilliant man, and will give you a great understanding of the dynamics of the subject.  He will spend time answering your questions (I wish he would run for mayor btw).         

it took seconds actually ctrl+c and ctrl+v. 

 

Well I guess as long as you're willing to get past this insane notion that somehow "the city of Cleveland" is responsible for getting this done and that this is somehow a local leadership issue, then I guess... Welcome to the development world.  I think you will find the city quite accomodating in regards to infastructure of your development, and potential tax savings... since that's really cities only role in things of this nature.

 

Since you have such an impressive can do attitude, I suggest by starting with a call to James Kassouf.  He owns the parking lots you would like to develop.  Bring your checkbook or financers because I highly doubt he is going to donate his money making properties to you just for the good of the city and your retail dreams.  If you are very lucky perhaps by the time this whole economic meltdown is over, maybe you can have some development agreements in place for those parcels.  It took Stark years, but then again, that's probably how long this climate will last so you've got some time.

 

I'm not full of no.  I am one of the more generally positive people you will ever meet when it comes to this city. You're just incredibly naive when it comes to how easy you think this is.  Of course I don't really know anything, I just base my opinion off conversations I've either had directly or indirectly with developers, commercial realtors, city officials, and reports I've read from strageic planners.

 

Oh... and one more thing... Here are some numbers you might not be interested in, but I'm sure the retailers will bring it up to you so be prepared.  Within a 5 mile radius of public square, (this actually touches part of Lakewood and Cleveland Heights), I give you the following demographic information:

 

% of HOUSEHOLD incomes (that of course doesn't mean individuals, but rather combined income of everyone living in the house) at $34,499 and below: 61.74%

 

% of HOUSEHOLD incomes at $100,000 or greater: 3.39%

 

Good luck, I truly do hope you succeed.

^Ouch... those numbers made me cringe a little.  Thanks for the data though.

Oh... and one more thing... Here are some numbers you might not be interested in, but I'm sure the retailers will bring it up to you so be prepared.  Within a 5 mile radius of public square, (this actually touches part of Lakewood and Cleveland Heights), I give you the following demographic information:

 

% of HOUSEHOLD incomes (that of course doesn't mean individuals, but rather combined income of everyone living in the house) at $34,499 and below: 61.74%

 

% of HOUSEHOLD incomes at $100,000 or greater: 3.39%

 

Good luck, I truly do hope you succeed.

 

I'd guess that Cleveland performs particularly bad in this regard compared to similarly sized cities.  It is just astounding how little wealth there is within the city proper and within that radius of downtown.  This hurts not only downtown retail, btw, but neighborhood retail too...which might explain why most of the functional retail left in the city is auto-friendly shopping centers with large catchment areas.

I think, again, this is very much a chicken vs. egg problem. Do you build the retail to ATTRACT more affluent people, or do you wait for the more affluent residents to come and call the city home first?

 

Again, I think that's why Stark's vision was so perfect: it actually would've taken care of both at the same time. But without someone who would be willing to put forth that kind of investment and risk, it's a sticky situation, I'd say.

I think, again, this is very much a chicken vs. egg problem. Do you build the retail to ATTRACT more affluent people, or do you wait for the more affluent residents to come and call the city home first?

 

Again, I think that's why Stark's vision was so perfect: it actually would've taken care of both at the same time. But without someone who would be willing to put forth that kind of investment and risk, it's a sticky situation, I'd say.

 

It's not even sticky.  That's the situation.  Period.  Even in good economic times retailers aren't going to bang down the door to get into a location with as poor a demographic makeup as our core city has... someone (in the private sector) is going to have lure them and build an enviornment for them, and that is going to take a TON of money.  And some individual is going to be on the HOOK for all that money.  Bob Stark tried to take that risk but couldn't raise the necessary capital or get any bank to buy into his plan, because they thought it was a bad risk.  FCE got it done once, and got completely burned, a lot of this, I am convinced was their own fault, but that is a different story.  And I haven't exactly heard of a list of potential developers banging on the door to throw their hat in the ring... and until someone from the private sector is able to step up, come in and have the 500 million to billion dollars required to create a development of this kind.  Well.... you have what we have here. And you continue to do the things we are doing which is develop a residential base.  You can not sue a store and tell them they have to open doors in a location.  That is never, ever, ever going to happen.  The day that happens is the day America is no longer a country founded on free enterprise.  And even if that did happen, where would such a store exist?  Are they going to just set some tables up in the middle of a parking lot?  Are we going to seize the Halle Building back by emminent domain because it's for the greater good of the city?

 

Whatever... it doesn't matter.  It will be years until retailers has recovered enough to even entertain such offers. 

Congrats folks - this thread is locked. Maybe *you* have enough time in your lives to take threads off-topic ad nauseum, but we don't have time to have to constantly babysit.

I have seen several topics taken over with discussions of Cleveland's downtown retail. After finding no topic dedicated just to this subject, i decided to create this in hopes to bring all downtown retail discussion to this thread and away from other topics keeping them on topic.

There are several downtown retail threads.  they all devolve into the same tired thing.

There are several downtown retail threads. they all devolve into the same tired thing.

 

Then delete this one. I was trying to get a common place where people could move their discussions to instead of taking other topics off topic

There are several downtown retail threads.  they all devolve into the same tired thing.

 

Then delete this one. I was trying to get a common place where people could move their discussions to instead of taking other topics off topic

 

Might I suggest doing a search before starting a new topic.

There are several downtown retail threads.  they all devolve into the same tired thing.

 

I for one would find it extremely useful to only have a single Downtown Retail Thread to monitor so that I can correct misconceptions, provide fact-based retorts to fuzzy-headed-wouldn't-it-be-grand-to-revive-Higbee's daydreams, and otherwise crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and hear the lamentations of their women.

There are several downtown retail threads. they all devolve into the same tired thing.

 

Then delete this one. I was trying to get a common place where people could move their discussions to instead of taking other topics off topic

 

Might I suggest doing a search before starting a new topic.

 

I did and nothing came up so if you want or have the power to then delete this. I was just trying to help keep other topics on topic by giving people a place to just discuss downtown retail because its a subject that keeps taking over other threads.

There are several downtown retail threads. they all devolve into the same tired thing.

 

I for one would find it extremely useful to only have a single Downtown Retail Thread to monitor so that I can correct misconceptions, provide fact-based retorts to fuzzy-headed-wouldn't-it-be-grand-to-revive-Higbee's daydreams, and otherwise crush my enemies, see them driven before me, and hear the lamentations of their women.

 

You mean we arn't going to revive Higbee's?