kjbrill, I don't even know what you're debating. It sounds like you're saying that Kenwood Towne Place is a bad idea and Kenwood Towne Centre is on a path to failure, because that whole area is too crowded and it's hard to find parking. In other words: no one goes there, it's too crowded!

 

I am not debating anything specific other than the projected completion of Kenwood Towne Place seems excessive to me. But you can ignore my opinion as I am only a retired engineer so I obviously have no background in this.

 

I am not versed in what legal entanglements may still exist. I believe there may be several. But the current owners should be upfront about this, this is what we still have to wade through, and this is when we believe actual construction will start, and this is our target opening date. What is so difficult about that? It is called being open with the public.

 

I do believe Kenwood Towne Place was an ill-conceived development, shoehorned on a too small plot of ground. Of course others will disagree as it is adjacent to the highest profile shopping center in Cincinnati. What is this called - money breeds money?

 

But a good design it is not, as I said it is shoehorned on the plot of ground.

 

Kenwood Towne Center will be around for quite a while.

 

Reasons, just look who shops there. Go south and east, through Madeira, Indian Hill, Mariemont and further, what do you find? Not a whole lot. You can go all the way out on the east side to Eastgate and you find nothing comparable to Kenwood.

 

You can do west and south towards downtown. The only place which holds a candle is Rookwood Commons and Rookwood Exchange and they still have a long way to go to equal Kenwood. Downtown itself has about zilch. So from all the way downtown out to Kenwood, it is the destination.

 

Then you can go directly west from Kenwood. With that in mind you will pass near Norwood and all the way cross the Mill Creek Valley. Is there anything today there resembling a shopping center?

 

I could go further but will not. The entire east side of the City of Cincinnati has only one designated close to upscale shopping area and it is Kenwood Towne Center. Since it is not even in the City, to me this is a sorry state of affairs.

 

 

 

 

You've now said its a great place and draws from the entire region. There is nothing in Mason or west Chester eithe that comes close. A few posts back you said it was dying.  And what does the fact that its not in the city have to so with anything? If you were to shrink almost any mid sized city (500k-900k) in America to Cincinnati's small borders you'd end up with some of their best neighborhoods and shopping districts "outside the city".  The city of Indianapolis is 400 sq/m and Hamilton County is only 360 sq/m. Cincinnati is 77. 

You've now said its a great place and draws from the entire region. There is nothing in Mason or west Chester eithe that comes close. A few posts back you said it was dying.  And what does the fact that its not in the city have to so with anything? If you were to shrink almost any mid sized city (500k-900k) in America to Cincinnati's small borders you'd end up with some of their best neighborhoods and shopping districts "outside the city".  The city of Indianapolis is 400 sq/m and Hamilton County is only 360 sq/m. Cincinnati is 77.

 

I did not say it was a great place. I simply said it is the only place on the entire eastern side of Cincinnati from downtown to the eastern suburbs which has the ability to draw an upscale crowd. At least the east side has someplace, the west side has zilch. I still believe the further out suburbs have enough to offer few of us ever have to go to places such a KTC. So yes I do believe as time goes on and people value their time versus the shopping experience places like KTC will begin to degrade. It will be slow because those who desire to experience the upscale shopping experience have so few places to go.

Mods, do you want to re-title the thread back to Kenwood Collection since it was lost?

 

Kenwood Collection lands first office tenant: EXCLUSIVE

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

There will be seven floors of office space in Phillips Edison & Co.’s Kenwood Collection, but only six remain available for lease.

 

Neace Lukens, one of Cincinnati’s largest insurance agencies, is the first announced office tenant of Kenwood Collection. David Birdsall, president of the Strategic Investment Fund at Phillips Edison, announced that Neace Lukens signed a letter of intent to lease an entire floor of office space in the mixed-use development along Interstate 71, formerly known as Kenwood Towne Place.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/07/30/kenwood-collection-lands-first-office.html

They got their high end department store.  I'm sure they'll announce it soon. 

You have to give a hint

If its a Bloomingdales or Nieman Marcus that's a big win. If its a Saks that means downtowns store will close in a couple years.

...and if "high end" is Von Maur, then they get a Price-Is-Right-loser-song.

If its a Bloomingdales or Nieman Marcus that's a big win. If its a Saks that means downtowns store will close in a couple years.

 

If it's Saks, I don't even think we'd see the downtown store stay open for a little bit. No way this market can support two Saks stores. I'd be very surprised if Niemans or Bloomingdales chose to enter the Cincinnati market, so unfortunately I think downtown is going to have a whole new set of challenges to face.  Two steps forward, three steps back...

Saks is currently being purchased by parent company Hudson's Bay (owner of Lord & Taylor) so I doubt they would be negotiating a move/new store right now as the entire company is in transition mode. They have also been closing stores as of late, not expanding or renovating or moving.

^Your doubts are mistaken. That's all I can say. 

 

 

*I have no knowledge about whether or not Saks has decided to move to Kenwood or not.

I heard a month or two ago Sak's is moving up I-71...

California Raisins commercial

So... are people basically saying they know that saks is moving to kenwood?  Or this is 100% pure speculation?

So... are people basically saying they know that saks is moving to kenwood?  Or this is 100% pure speculation?

 

Speculation.  I do not know the name of the store; however, I remember Saks getting money from the city in exchange for staying downtown for x amount of years.  I found the 2002 lease agreement online and it says they may terminate the lease if one the following events occurs:

 

---

Saks shall be released from the above Operating Agreements if any of the following conditions

occur: (i) Saks sells the Saks store on the Property to an entity which acquires the majority of the Saks

stores then located in the States of Ohio, Michigan, Illinois, and Pennsylvania,; (ii) Lazarus Department

Store at Fifth and Race Streets fails to continue operations on at least the first two floors of its currently

occupied space and if (1) Brooks Brothers on Vine Street closes, or (2) Tiffany’s on Vine Street closes, or

(3) less than 77% of the gross leaseable square footage in Tower Place and the Carew Tower Arcade is

occupied and operated as retail; or (iii) both of Brooks Brothers, on Vine Street, and Tiffany’s, on Vine

Street cease operations in their current locations and less than 77% of the gross leasable square footage in

Tower Place and the Carew Tower Arcade is occupied and operated as retail.

---

 

With Tower Place and Brooks Brothers gone, they are free and clear to leave downtown.

 

Also with the impending purchase of Saks they would be free.

^Your doubts are mistaken. That's all I can say. 

 

 

*I have no knowledge about whether or not Saks has decided to move to Kenwood or not.

 

I'm not saying it's not possible, but how much of corporate level management will stay in place isn't known so anything that is currently being negotiated could be thrown out entirely after the purchase is finalized.

 

The more I think about it, though, it seems like a possibility.  Saks probably didn't have the money to open a new store right now, but Hudson's Bay does.

I did find it interesting that in an article the other day about The K. C. landing it's first office tenant, it was mentioned that because of the response at the ICSC RECon  Convention in Las Vegas in May, they were going to reconfigure the retail portion.  I figured they had landed a department store retailer.  But if you look at the rendering of the building as it would be viewed from the KTC parking lot (west elevation), it is obvious they have planned a large scale user at the north end all along.  SAKS is relocating it's Sarasota, FL store in 2014, so moving from DT could be plausible.  I can't imagine they are making money down there.  They do have a Neiman Marcus in Charlotte, NC, so one in this market would work I think.  But, if not SAKS, I'm betting on Von Maur.  When they opened in Dayton several years ago, it was mentioned that they wanted a store here.  Plus they also have stores in Columbus, Louisville, and Indianapolis.  So it would be a geographical fit.  Not sure if they are as upscale as SAKS or Neiman Marcus, but they have a reputation for outstanding service.    I don't think Bloomingdale's would come here.  They seem to only do well on the coasts and in Florida.  The article mentioned above also stated that some big announcements about retailers would be coming soon.    Here's the article  :  http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/07/30/heres-the-latest-on-phillips-edisons.html?page=all

^Yeah, I'm beginning to think Neiman Marcus is coming to the area soon - not sure whether it will be at Kenwood or Liberty.

 

They have been advertising heavily on the Dayton Daily News website. And I know those aren't "ad-track" ads because I have never visited their website nor do I fit their ideal customer demographic.

^If they're coming to the region, I would definitely think Kenwood would be the place.  Liberty's only announced tenant so far is a Dillards...far from high end.  Meanwhile, Kenwood continues to add high end stores like Kate Spade and Michael Kors.

 

If the Kenwood Collection could land a Niemans or Bloomingdales, I think it could actually be a positive thing for the whole region.  Downtown has to do something about the state of retail, and I think some new competition up in Kenwood might spur the city to develop the area around Saks and Macys into more of a retail hub.  Meanwhile, a new to the region department store such as NM would really be a draw for (a certain segment of) the entire 2 hour radius region of almost 10 million people. 

^ yes I think NM would be a very good thing for the whole region in Kenwood.  Keeps it in a place that already has high activity and doesn't add some mega project out in a field that requires 70 million in new on and off ramps paid for by the government to subsidize developers.

 

(quick note on downtown, I know this is kenwood thread) but as for keeping Saks downtown, I think the dunhumby building could be a real positive for them as it has 1st floor retail.  depending on what kind of tenants that building attracts it could be a good retail destination.  that is a big big IF though.

I really don't know which department store will end up signing.  Here are my odds on who I think will be named:

 

1000:1 Bloomingdale's (No way Macy's would put them here)

500:1  Barney's (ha)

20:1 Neiman Marcus (Charlotte & St. Louis have one but still feels like a long shot)

5:1 Von Maur (only has locations in "flyover country", personally don't think they're much better than the Kenwood Macy's)

3:1 Saks moves from downtown (sadly, can't blame them)

 

The rumor is they have a high end department store that is attracting other high end stand alone retailers.  I doubt Von Maur would do that, but who knows.

 

 

Worried about traffic near Kenwood Collection? There’s a plan for that

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

Here’s something that’s no surprise to anyone who’s tried to pop in and out of Kenwood Towne Centre close to Christmas: Kenwood has a lot of traffic. David Birdsall said the same thing to a group of office real estate brokers during his presentation of the Kenwood Collection on July 30.

 

But he, along with Rusty Myers of Jones Lang LaSalle and Sycamore Township Trustee Tom Weidman, said traffic won’t be a problem around Phillips Edison & Co.’s new mixed-use development that’s transforming the long-stalled former Kenwood Towne Place property.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/08/02/worried-about-traffic-near-kenwood.html

 

Worried about traffic near Kenwood Collection? There’s a plan for that

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

Here’s something that’s no surprise to anyone who’s tried to pop in and out of Kenwood Towne Centre close to Christmas: Kenwood has a lot of traffic. David Birdsall said the same thing to a group of office real estate brokers during his presentation of the Kenwood Collection on July 30.

 

But he, along with Rusty Myers of Jones Lang LaSalle and Sycamore Township Trustee Tom Weidman, said traffic won’t be a problem around Phillips Edison & Co.’s new mixed-use development that’s transforming the long-stalled former Kenwood Towne Place property.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/08/02/worried-about-traffic-near-kenwood.html

 

At least they admitted there is a problem. Now let's see if they can effectively solve it just via traffic light control. I would think that would require some sophisticated measurements of traffic volume, where backups are, etc.

Just another comment. If this tech company is successful they should go to ODOT and ask for the cfhance to do the same think at the I-71/Fields Ertel interchange area, before they start building ODOT's latest brainstorm for the area.

They can try a bunch of different things to alleviate the traffic problems, but those are just band-aid solutions and will not actually reduce congestion very much. The problem is that the entire area is built for cars first and people second. If someone is at Kenwood Towne Centre and wants to visit the Kenwood Collection, they will probably drive across the parking lot and re-park, because the area is so pedestrian-hostile. That particular example does not involve driving on public streets, but the same is true for all of the different shopping centers, strip malls, office buildings, and fast food restaurants along that section of Montgomery Road.

Why does the rendering look like the building right of f I-275 in Ky near Turkeyfoot?

They can try a bunch of different things to alleviate the traffic problems, but those are just band-aid solutions and will not actually reduce congestion very much. The problem is that the entire area is built for cars first and people second. If someone is at Kenwood Towne Centre and wants to visit the Kenwood Collection, they will probably drive across the parking lot and re-park, because the area is so pedestrian-hostile. That particular example does not involve driving on public streets, but the same is true for all of the different shopping centers, strip malls, office buildings, and fast food restaurants along that section of Montgomery Road.

 

I always feel like a complete dolt doing that, but feel even stupider when I don't.

Just another comment. If this tech company is successful they should go to ODOT and ask for the cfhance to do the same think at the I-71/Fields Ertel interchange area, before they start building ODOT's latest brainstorm for the area.

 

Actually, a system like that was just installed in the Field's Ertle area last year.  At the same time they installed wheelchair friendly crosswalks and new timed crossing signals all over the place.  I am on Field's Ertle every morning.  It's much better.  I am really looking forward to the "flyover" exit ramp coming in 2015. 

Neiman Marcus is currently up for sale.  A few months ago there was a rumor that they would combine with SAKS.  Not sure if NM is looking to expand right now.  My money is on a SAKS relocation. 

Kenwood Towne Place investor sues Keating, alleges malpractice

Andy Brownfield Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

A Kenwood Towne Place investor is suing the law firm of Keating Muething & Klekamp, alleging that the firm’s attorney advising him in the investment committed malpractice.

 

Henry Schneider claims that KMK attorney Herbert Weiss deliberately misled him by not disclosing Kenwood Towne Place developer Matthew Daniels’ history of financial troubles or the fact that Weiss was also representing Daniels. Schneider’s suit claims Weiss stood to benefit financially from representing both men.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/08/05/kenwood-towne-place-investor-sues.html

 

Grand jury indicts Kenwood Towne Place construction manager

Tom Demeropolis Reporter- Cincinnati Business Courier

 

 

The construction manager for Kenwood Towne Place was indicted Thursday on federal fraud charges for his role with the stalled development.

 

Aubrey “Audie” Tarpley III, who served as director of construction on the unfinished $175 million Kenwood Towne Place project, is charged with 21 criminal counts of conspiracy to commit bank fraud, bank fraud, mail fraud, wire fraud, and money laundering, according to a 19-page indictment filed in U.S. District Court in Cincinnati on Thursday.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/cincinnati/news/2013/08/16/grand-jury-indicts-kenwood-towne-place.html

Those charges sound tough. But I don't know what kind of sentences those bring if convicted.

Those charges sound tough. But I don't know what kind of sentences those bring if convicted.

 

ALLEGEDLY, Audie was the guy faxing fake checks to subcontractors saying that Bear Creek just needed to sign it and mail it in a desperate effort to keep subcontractors on site.

Cincinnati should just annex Sycamore Twp.

 

http://www.wcpo.com/money/local-business-news/sources-saks-fifth-avenue-may-be-moving-from-downtown-cincinnati-to-the-kenwood-collection-

I am really holding out hope they can work something out to keep Saks downtown, but signs seem to be pointing otherwise.

 

I would hope that once dunhumby building is complete and if/when fountain place gets a facelift + apartments on top that would really make that part of Race much more appealing, but that is a lot of "ifs". I certainly understand from a retail sales perspective why kenwood would be appealing.

I'm actually wondering if the "anchor store" mentality is outdated at this point - is that what really creates street-level activity and excitement in downtowns nowadays? I'd kind of prefer it if the city tried to focus on encouraging and creating shopping experiences that you can't get in a suburban mall.

 

that being said, I don't really know anyone who shops at Saks, so maybe it's actually bringing a ton of excitement and activity to 5th and Race that i'm somehow missing out on.

I too would hope to keep Saks downtown, but as stated above, I think department stores are dying a not too slow death.  Also, while it is nice to have a high end anchor, what percentage of the population really shops at Saks?  I think if I were looking at sheer numbers of shoppers, I would rather have a Target or something similar to better serve the masses.  Downtown is doing very well at this point and as much as I would hate to see the loss of a major department store, the pluses we keep seeing every month outweigh the minuses.

 

 

I'm actually wondering if the "anchor store" mentality is outdated at this point - is that what really creates street-level activity and excitement in downtowns nowadays? I'd kind of prefer it if the city tried to focus on encouraging and creating shopping experiences that you can't get in a suburban mall.

 

that being said, I don't really know anyone who shops at Saks, so maybe it's actually bringing a ton of excitement and activity to 5th and Race that i'm somehow missing out on.

 

I agree.  If Saks wants to go, good riddance.  I too think one/two story big downtown department stores as we know them today, are useless.  This store in particular just isn't very busy, and creates a huge dead zones along both 5th and vine streets

I'd kind of prefer it if the city tried to focus on encouraging and creating shopping experiences that you can't get in a suburban mall.

 

Agreed. It baffles me that the suburban mall concept is still going strong here in the Cincinnati region. This development is shiny and new but still an island in a sea of parking lots, on top of a parking garage, etc.

Could the loss of Saks and Brooks Brothers actually help the downtown Macy's?  It seems like they could increase their high-end items to fill the void left by those two, and still offer things with a more accessible price tag. 

I'm actually wondering if the "anchor store" mentality is outdated at this point - is that what really creates street-level activity and excitement in downtowns nowadays? I'd kind of prefer it if the city tried to focus on encouraging and creating shopping experiences that you can't get in a suburban mall.

 

that being said, I don't really know anyone who shops at Saks, so maybe it's actually bringing a ton of excitement and activity to 5th and Race that i'm somehow missing out on.

 

I agree.  If Saks wants to go, good riddance.  I too think one/two story big downtown department stores as we know them today, are useless.  This store in particular just isn't very busy, and creates a huge dead zones along both 5th and vine streets

 

Urban dweller shopping habits are vastly different than suburban ones.

 

First off, less spending on possessions overall. Lots of money spent on nights out.

 

Preference for smaller specialty shops of all types.

 

Not scared of buying a wacked-out item or two.

 

Less idle browsing, more focused shopping. "I need..."

 

Little to no substitutions -- if you don't have the exact thing I want, I'm gone. I'll just call all the little shops in town.

 

Lots of checking the web first to see if the store "looks OK" rather than just showing up like at the mall.

 

That's just a few

I'd kind of prefer it if the city tried to focus on encouraging and creating shopping experiences that you can't get in a suburban mall.

 

Agreed. It baffles me that the suburban mall concept is still going strong here in the Cincinnati region. This development is shiny and new but still an island in a sea of parking lots, on top of a parking garage, etc.

 

Malls, specifically outdoor malls like the one that is going to be built up in West Chester, are actually doing surprisingly well all over the place.  Suburban retail has come out of the recession with a vengeance. They are tending to be a little bit more dense and mixed use than their predecessors, though. Despite the growing subset of people who use the internet for most shopping, the people who go out and shop as a way to spend spare time are doing so a lot.

 

Saks customer base is older, white, and suburban.  Knowing now that the sale of Saks Inc. to Hudson's Bay allows Saks out of their lease... I could see them moving as soon as the sale is finalized.  It'll come down to whether the increased sales projections from being located closer to their clientele (old, Indian Hill housewives) are higher than the incentives the city has to offer...

You guys are remarkably blase about possibly losing Saks to the suburbs.  The Saks in Cleveland has always been in the burbs since it was built in the 70's but I know that if it was downtown and was planning on relocating to the burbs this would be headline news and the hand wringing would be endless.

 

As least it looks like you will be keeping a store.  The previous Saks owners had been closing stores at a good pace.  Pittsburgh, among many others, lost its downtown store and they did not even relocate to the burbs.

 

I don't know about the Saks demo in Cincy and whether it is limited to Indian Hill blue hairs as suggested (at least it is bringing them downtown), but I know the Cleveland stores attracts a wide demo of people with money in all age ranges (in fact you tend to see more people in the 25-40 age range, especially in the men's department).  Saks of course attracts an upscale clientel which is the type that is more and more moving into the center city.

I don't know that we're blase about it, but between the downtown Nordstrom debacle and previous incentives to keep Saks downtown, I feel like we've been through this before.  I'd like to see it stay, but if it goes to Kenwood, it goes. 

 

 

Malls, specifically outdoor malls like the one that is going to be built up in West Chester, are actually doing surprisingly well all over the place.  Suburban retail has come out of the recession with a vengeance.

 

Not that I don't believe you, but do you have any support for this?  Most stories I've seen indicate that mall vacancies are still very high and rents are at levels below the pre-Recession days. 

I don't know that we're blase about it, but between the downtown Nordstrom debacle and previous incentives to keep Saks downtown, I feel like we've been through this before.  I'd like to see it stay, but if it goes to Kenwood, it goes. 

 

Exactly.  It would be nice if they stayed there, but I'd vastly prefer any incentives go toward apartments and condos downtown than toward Saks (assuming any additional incentives for Saks were on the table, which I don't think they are).  If we build a large enough population downtown, retail will follow.

The successful suburban malls have run ahead (Kenwood is the obvious example in Cincy, but also Polaris and Easton in Cbus), but the ones that were creaking along have not recovered.

My take on this:

 

CINCINNATI METRO

 

Defunct

Beechwood Mall

Jordan Crossing / Silverton Commons - Thanks John

 

Failing

Forest Fair Mall/Cincinnati Mills/Cincinnati Mall - For sale

Towne Mall in Middletown

Tri-County Mall - Just sold

 

Okay

Northgate Mall - Below average rates per SF, redevelopment/additions planned

Sycamore Plaza - Numerous vacancies, below average rates per SF

 

Performing Well

Crestview Hills - Mostly demolished and redeveloped into an open-air center

Eastgate

Florence Mall

Kenwood Town Center

 

Proposed

Kenwood Collection

Liberty Town Center

 

--

 

DAYTON METRO

 

Defunct

Salem Mall

 

Okay

Upper Valley Mall - Springfield

 

Performing Well

Dayton Mall

The Greene - Lifestyle center with residential, retail and offices in Beavercreek

The Mall at Fairfield Commons

 

--

 

COLUMBUS

 

Defunct

City Center

Consumer Square - Was this a mall or just big box haven?

Northland

 

Failing

Westland

 

Okay

Eastland Mall

 

Performing Well

Easton Town Center - Lifestyle center with retail and offices

The Mall at Tuttle Creek

Polaris Fashion Place

 

--

 

LEXINGTON KY

 

Defunct

Lexington Mall

Turfland Mall

 

Okay

Eastland Mall - City's first but more of a strip mall

 

Performing Well

Fayette Mall

Hamburg Pavilion

 

Proposed

The Summit - A lifestyle, open-air center with a rumored Saks Fifth Avenue coming in

Jordan Crossing is a defunct mall.

Thanks - added that and Dayton and Columbus to the list.