May 23, 20232 yr 17 minutes ago, bumsquare said: I’ll take the boos but this is 10 miles from downtown it’s just fancy sprawl. If it weren’t on a rapid transit line (especially one that’s set to become even faster with the rebuild and new trains) maybe I’d agree, but I don’t think transit oriented development is the same as auto-centric sprawl. Also as suburbs build enough walkable/dense development, they become capable of functioning as cities in their own right—realistically, metro areas will never be able to “un-sprawl,” so building suburbs into their own urban communities may be the best way forward. Lots of suburban apartments don’t meet the “walkable/dense” criteria, but I think Van Aken does. Edited May 23, 20232 yr by sonisharri
May 23, 20232 yr Author 14 minutes ago, bumsquare said: I’ll take the boos but this is 10 miles from downtown it’s just fancy sprawl. I don't consider anything in an inner-ring suburb to be sprawl. I'm happy to see such a high-density, mixed-use development finally provide an urbanized endpoint ridership anchor to a 107-year-old rail transit line in this inner-ring suburb. Wish we had a couple of them on the Green Line too! Say, a southward expansion of the campus village from John Carroll University to the Warrensville Station and a charming, cozy station village at Green Road. "In the souls of the people the grapes of wrath are filling and growing heavy, growing heavy for the vintage." -- John Steinbeck
May 23, 20232 yr 10 minutes ago, sonisharri said: If it weren’t on a rapid transit line (especially one that’s set to become even faster with the rebuild and new trains) maybe I’d agree, but I don’t think transit oriented development is the same as auto-centric sprawl. Also as suburbs build enough walkable/dense development, they become capable of functioning as cities in their own right—realistically, metro areas will never be able to “un-sprawl,” so building suburbs into their own urban communities may be the best way forward. Lots of suburban apartments don’t meet the “walkable/dense” criteria, but I think Van Aken does. I doubt many people are taking the rail to Van Aken. I would love to be wrong. But to me it’s functionally not much different than a smaller Crocker Park. It just reinforces commercial activity at the 271 corridor and away from the center city.
May 23, 20232 yr 7 minutes ago, KJP said: I don't consider anything in an inner-ring suburb to be sprawl. I'm happy to see such a high-density, mixed-use development finally provide an urbanized endpoint ridership anchor to a 107-year-old rail transit line in this inner-ring suburb. Wish we had a couple of them on the Green Line too! Say, a southward expansion of the campus village from John Carroll University to the Warrensville Station and a charming, cozy station village at Green Road. I know what you mean but it’s only technically inner ring. At least to my view it’s just an extension of the Legacy/Eton retail corridor
May 23, 20232 yr 35 minutes ago, bumsquare said: I doubt many people are taking the rail to Van Aken. I would love to be wrong. But to me it’s functionally not much different than a smaller Crocker Park. I really can’t speak for anyone else, but I’ve taken rail between downtown and Van Aken and it was fairly convenient. I think lower car ownership (especially on the east side) means that at least some people will always opt for RTA, and current/future TOD on the green and blue lines should hopefully increase ridership. From downtown, it takes 27 minutes to get to Van Aken by train and only 15 from Shaker Square. The bus to Crocker Park, on the other hand, is well over an hour from downtown. 35 minutes ago, bumsquare said: It just reinforces commercial activity at the 271 corridor and away from the center city. No offense, but it’s been quite a while since the center city has had much “commercial activity” to draw away, at least in terms of retail. Parking, traffic, and travel times all make driving to downtown pretty inconvenient, but one of the best ways to fix this is by adding tons of housing units directly next to reliable rapid transit into the city, and that’s exactly what this project does. Edited May 23, 20232 yr by sonisharri
May 23, 20232 yr 7 hours ago, bumsquare said: I doubt many people are taking the rail to Van Aken. I would love to be wrong. But to me it’s functionally not much different than a smaller Crocker Park. It just reinforces commercial activity at the 271 corridor and away from the center city. The single best thing that could happen in the region to reduce car usage, improve health (via more walking), and tighten community bonds is for a Van Aken district to spring up on every RTA station parking lot. This is EXACTLY the type of development needed to reduce the draw of sprawl. Every worthwhile city has multiple nodes of activity. I think in a perfect future with more rail throughout the county, having hubs like this around rail stations that host frequent rail service to downtown and UC is the dream scenario. That’s what cities in other countries are like. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
May 23, 20232 yr Like I said I doubt this development has reduced car usage. The Blue and Green lines combined get 2k riders each day. How many of those trips are specifically going to shop at Van Aken? To my view it’s not functionally any different from Crocker Park. People patronizing shops and restaurants miles from the city. I’m not “offended” by the idea that city retail is dead, it just bums me out. And these far flung developments just reinforce those patterns. And yes car ownership is lower on the “east side” but probably not among the clientele at Van Aken.
May 23, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, Boomerang_Brian said: The single best thing that could happen in the region to reduce car usage, improve health (via more walking), and tighten community bonds is for a Van Aken district to spring up on every RTA station parking lot. This is EXACTLY the type of development needed to reduce the draw of sprawl. Every worthwhile city has multiple nodes of activity. I think in a perfect future with more rail throughout the county, having hubs like this around rail stations that host frequent rail service to downtown and UC is the dream scenario. That’s what cities in other countries are like. I wouldn’t consider Van Aken a node of activity for the city unless you would include Legacy Village and Crocker Park as additional candidates. If that’s the case I think I want less nodes of activity.
May 23, 20232 yr 19 minutes ago, bumsquare said: I wouldn’t consider Van Aken a node of activity for the city unless you would include Legacy Village and Crocker Park as additional candidates. If that’s the case I think I want less nodes of activity. This doesn’t make sense to me. The Rapid is a wildly underutilized local resource. Van Aken District is one of the top three things that have happened in the last 20 years to make the Rapid system more useful, and arguably the single best. (The other two are the dramatic development of big new apartments in Ohio City and the opening of the Little Italy station). If this isn’t the model for what we need more of, I really don’t know what would be. It is extremely important that we improve the utility of the Rapid. When is the last time I-71 turned a profit?
May 23, 20232 yr Van Aken shows TOD can work even in suburbs. It definitely doesn't feel like Crocker Park. They've done a nice job of keeping cars away from people and focusing less on giant national chains to create something that is more like a neighborhood hot spot vs. a mall. I would love to see more of this all over the place.
May 23, 20232 yr 9 minutes ago, coneflower said: Van Aken shows TOD can work even in suburbs. It definitely doesn't feel like Crocker Park. They've done a nice job of keeping cars away from people and focusing less on giant national chains to create something that is more like a neighborhood hot spot vs. a mall. I would love to see more of this all over the place. I like that Van Aken feels much more connected to the road network and the rest of Shaker Heights. Crocker Park is surrounded by surface parking and feels cut off from Westlake. Although, CP has a nice walkable environment inside the development, it just feels separated from the rest of the city.
May 23, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, bumsquare said: I’m not “offended” by the idea that city retail is dead, it just bums me out. And these far flung developments just reinforce those patterns. I guess I meant there’s little room for city retail to get any worse, but plenty of potential for growth if we can create new transit riders with TOD. The major difference I see between Van Aken and places like Crocker Park and Legacy Village is the ratio of retail to residential. Van Aken might have a couple boutique-y shops and restaurants, but it feels much more like a neighborhood center than a “mall” 1 hour ago, bumsquare said: And yes car ownership is lower on the “east side” but probably not among the clientele at Van Aken. I would imagine that at least some of the younger people living around Shaker Square, Larchmere, and in the many more apartments on Van Aken Blvd on the Blue Line are car-free, and exactly who I’d expect to frequent the Van Aken district. I think they’ve also done some programming and community events which are free.
May 23, 20232 yr 12 hours ago, bumsquare said: I doubt many people are taking the rail to Van Aken. I would love to be wrong. But to me it’s functionally not much different than a smaller Crocker Park. It just reinforces commercial activity at the 271 corridor and away from the center city. Looking at it in the wrong direction. People live there and take it into town.
May 23, 20232 yr for those questioning the new van aken tod, i would ask, what's the difference between that and beloved old shaker square? i would say only time passing and style of the day, but nothing major. van aken tod is just reinventing the wheel, don't you think? so yeah, more of it the better. you need a wide variety of neighborhood options to draw people back to the metro and this is a very modern type that some peer cities have, so good to get in on it. remember not everybody is downtown julie brown and zoomers and empty nesters especially love this walkable transit node stuff, it works for them. so yay for a bit of modern portland in the cle -- but just keep that rta row open out there !!! Edited May 23, 20232 yr by mrnyc
May 23, 20232 yr I really admire the boldness of what's happening at Van Aken and wish my Cle Hts would show more of this type of attitude. There's a bit of chicken and egg dynamic when it comes to making a city more vibrant. Yes, there needs to be an economic base - but from there it depends on what you do with it. The architectural style of the residential building alone can change people's attitude about a place. Make it feel more like with one with a future vs. only a storied past. Combine that with a well thought out and programmed lifestyle center, proximity to public transport and you can create an entirely new energy. One that could entice younger people to stay - and perhaps someone interviewing for a job from out of town to think harder about coming. The vibe of what's being built there is demonstrably different from the old, dated shopping strip. I can't guarantee it's success - but no doubt it establishes a much more contemporary, energetic statement.
May 23, 20232 yr It's curious that VAD is being labeled as part of the I271 corridor. Looking at a map, SH and VAD are not even as far west as some parts of the city of Cleveland, such as Lee-Miles, which feels to be within a stones throw of the I271 corridor. If this development were placed in that area, would the same argument be made? People are moving to VAD and its surrounding neighborhood for the TOD lifestyle and are using it. Shaker is unique that they are they only suburb with a train line let alone two. As someone in the Shaker Square area, we DO take the train to VAD, along with bike and walk, all assets of a TOD development.
May 23, 20232 yr and here's something else for van aken and any other rapid adjacent property owners to consider -- rents are soaring around ny transit stations -- it would seem urban areas are back in play -- and i assume they like money? 😸 https://www.amny.com/transit/rent-increases-nyc-subway-stops-2022-2023/
May 23, 20232 yr 5 hours ago, yanni_gogolak said: Looking at it in the wrong direction. People live there and take it into town. Do they though? Not anecdotally but statistically. I don’t have an accurate answer but my guess would be that not very many of those 2k daily trips generate at Van Aken.
May 23, 20232 yr 4 hours ago, mrnyc said: for those questioning the new van aken tod, i would ask, what's the difference between that and beloved old shaker square? i would say only time passing and style of the day, but nothing major. van aken tod is just reinventing the wheel, don't you think? so yeah, more of it the better. you need a wide variety of neighborhood options to draw people back to the metro and this is a very modern type that some peer cities have, so good to get in on it. remember not everybody is downtown julie brown and zoomers and empty nesters especially love this walkable transit node stuff, it works for them. so yay for a bit of modern portland in the cle -- but just keep that rta row open out there !!! I do think it’s very similar to Shaker Square and that’s part of the problem. It duplicates retail space four miles further out from the city. In fact this development probably puts the nail in the coffin for Shaker Square retail considering the region’s stagnant growth and existing retail vacancy. However I also think Shaker Square was much more strictly oriented to its transit connection and actually drove ridership well into the 2000s Edited May 23, 20232 yr by bumsquare
May 23, 20232 yr 1 hour ago, bumsquare said: I do think it’s very similar to Shaker Square and that’s part of the problem. It duplicates retail space four miles further out from the city. In fact this development probably puts the nail in the coffin for Shaker Square retail considering the region’s stagnant growth and existing retail vacancy. However I also think Shaker Square was much more strictly oriented to its transit connection and actually drove ridership well into the 2000s How so? The part about Shaker Square being more strictly oriented to its transit connection?
May 24, 20232 yr Lets not forget, with the labor shortages hitting a lot of businesses, especially restaurants, the businesses at VAD can tap a labor pool easily from lower rent areas along the rapid since it offers an easy, reliable and generally quick commute. That's gotta be a great selling point to opening a shop there in todays labor climate, and how this development differs from Crocker, Beachwood, Pinecrest, Eaton...etc.
May 24, 20232 yr I unfortunately agree that VAD is duplicative to Shaker square but in car oriented societies we are over retailed. My hope is shaker square closes the thru lanes and is able to use the funding to stop the bleeding. In the long term I hope shaker square can have more every day tenants like Dave’s while VAD can be more of the draw to pull orange/gates mills people in via North Star, the music, etc.
May 24, 20232 yr Few things regarding Shaker Square v. van Aken: I say this with high hopes that shaker square revitalizes itself fully as I live close by. - shaker square has been mismanaged and has not kept up its infrastructure. Tenants who pay into Van Aken are buying into new facilities, closer proximity to neighboring businesses and frankly more activity and foot traffic. I don’t think Van Aken could’ve been replicated at shaker square without shutting down shaker boulevard in the middle. - it was never really an option to invest all that money into shaker square consider Shaker Heights was a big player in the development and Shaker Square is in Cleveland. -shaker square can fully revitalize itself independent of Van Aken with a good vision, good leadership and some money. We see proximal TOD developments in all big cities. This is a Very dense part of town. No cannibalism here Edited May 24, 20232 yr by BelievelandD1
May 24, 20232 yr it's possible VAD doubles in size over the next ten years. there is a lot of opportunity there for growth. and it's important that the terminus of the blue line is a place that people want to travel out to. I think there needs to be some non-residential reason to get off at every stop for the rapid system to be healthy. I use the train a 5 or 6 times a year just to go out to both shaker square and van aken.
May 24, 20232 yr I find it hard to believe that VAD will overtake Shaker Square. What the Square has that VAD does not is many more residents, in all directions of the square. They also don't compete in the type of retailers they are attracting. They are reaching out to two completely different market bases, which provide two unique offerings that compliment each other, rather than compete with each other. What I do see if VAD offering the Square a benchmark on how they should pursue their redevelopment, including adding more walkable zones and having places for people to just hang out and relax. Right now, Shaker Square has not place to just be in, even if they are not shopping. It's either go to a store or go home. Closing traffic through the Square is the first step to make this happen. This could easily be a duplicate version of Public Square, with all the same amenities, plus more.
May 24, 20232 yr Re some of @bumsquare's comments-- In my mind developments like this are organic and reflect the way people have lived throughout history. The now-popular buzzword of "15-minute city" Is really just what every city was before auto-centric development in the 1900s. But that doesn't mean that every city throughout history had all its population crammed into one square mile with nothing but farmland outside the walls. Certainly, some cities were this way. But if you look at old cities, most of them had a series of interconnected neighborhoods, each of which functioned like its own independent city in many ways, whether or not it truly was. In Boston area, for instance, you have many very dense suburbs arrayed around Boston--for instance Cambridge and Chelsea. Chelsea is a good five miles from downtown Boston, which is about the same distance as the Van Aken District is from University Circle. The development pattern these cities follow is not one where everything starts in the center city and emanates outward in basically concentric circles. If anything, that's the auto-centric model, whereas more walkable cities tend to have a dozen (or more) different hotspots that bleed imperceptibly into eachother. So I don't think you can at all accuse this development of being sprawl. I'll go so far as to say that even a development like Pinecrest shouldn't be considered sprawl, since it's creating a walkable community (albeit disconnected). I also totally disagree that this "puts the nail in the coffin of Shaker Square." First off, Shaker Square is still a pretty vibrant area, even if it's experiencing distress. I'm down there probably once a month, and it has about as much activity as it did five years ago. Second, I think that Van Aken provides a framework for Shaker Square to succeed. And given the easy rail connection, the two ought to benefit each-other. There just HAVE to be people who live at Van Aken and take the Blue Line down to Edwins or Dave's. And vice versa for folks who live at Shaker Square going to Market District. IMHO, the businesses at both locations are pretty complementary (not competitive) right now. Edited May 24, 20232 yr by LlamaLawyer
May 30, 20232 yr On 5/23/2023 at 6:07 PM, bumsquare said: Do they though? Not anecdotally but statistically. I don’t have an accurate answer but my guess would be that not very many of those 2k daily trips generate at Van Aken. So who rides the rail in your opinion?
June 9, 20232 yr 2 hours ago, Taller_is_better said: thought the RTA sign added to your discussion. In case anyone’s still skeptical about ridership to downtown on the Shaker Heights trains, the green line was packed full (no seats left) on the way to Pride last weekend. I would only imagine the blue line was busier.
June 19, 20231 yr this building is going to be very cool, the bridge being that high really creates a fun view under / thru building.
June 28, 20231 yr Shaker council OKs development, financing deal for Arcadia project in Van Aken Districthttps://www.cleveland.com/community/2023/06/shaker-council-oks-development-financing-deal-for-arcadia-mixed-use-project-in-van-aken-district.htmlSent from my Pixel 7 using Tapatalk
June 28, 20231 yr As someone who would love to move to shaker (from lakewood) when kids are of school age. Do these projects have any chance of leading to eventually lowering the property tax/income tax rate in SH?
June 28, 20231 yr 1 hour ago, Clefan14 said: As someone who would love to move to shaker (from lakewood) when kids are of school age. Do these projects have any chance of leading to eventually lowering the property tax/income tax rate in SH? I live in Shaker and i love shaker. The infrastructure and education dollars are very expensieve. But even if they were to increase the tax base, there is always something else around the corner to use tax dollars on. keeping a shaker library, which the younger generation of shakerites are like WTF? cuyahoga county libraries are great, why do we need our own? And the older generation of shakerites are apparently library snobs and want to have a levy to keep those running? Then there is the upper shaker lake debacle. There is always something.
June 28, 20231 yr I understand why y'all are being so cynical (because that's just how Shaker is...), but I think the answer to @Clefan14's question has to be a firm maybe. Particularly in a city like Shaker with an individual income tax, this project and others like it will improve the city's total revenue per acre, which should improve revenue to expense ratio. The question then is whether the city services 15 years from now are at a point where revenues exceed not only basic maintenance and projects but also exceed the amount needed to perform premium maintenance and premium projects that the median Shaker voter is willing to pay additional taxes for. In other words, I think it's foreseeable that most Shaker voters could be willing to pay somewhat higher taxes and receive somewhat improved services, but I have no idea how you could accurately estimate that "somewhat." To answer a question like this, I think you need to enlist the likes of McKinsey (and even they are probably just guessing.)
June 28, 20231 yr It's always been my understanding that taxes in SH are higher due to the quality of services the city provides, combined with the low corporate tax base. If more companies were headquartered in SH, then taxes would not be as high.
June 28, 20231 yr ^OfficeMax used to be HQ in Shaker Heights (till 2003?), right near that old Chagrin/Warrensville/Northfield intersection if I recall correctly, so at one point they had a decent corporate tax base. Taxes were still high for residents though.
June 29, 20231 yr 4 hours ago, scg80 said: It's always been my understanding that taxes in SH are higher due to the quality of services the city provides, combined with the low corporate tax base. If more companies were headquartered in SH, then taxes would not be as high. It's not HQs they need necessarily, just more corporate or industrial businesses in general, like Euclid or Solon, that could take care of some of the tax burden. The Office Max building is now occupied by UH, but not sure how that works with them being a non-profit. Given that Shaker is built out and has no room for large scale industrial or commercial expansion, the tax situation will likely never change. Edited June 29, 20231 yr by Mov2Ohio
June 29, 20231 yr 10 hours ago, Mov2Ohio said: It's not HQs they need necessarily, just more corporate or industrial businesses in general, like Euclid or Solon, that could take care of some of the tax burden. The Office Max building is now occupied by UH, but not sure how that works with them being a non-profit. Given that Shaker is built out and has no room for large scale industrial or commercial expansion, the tax situation will likely never change. Hopefully added density and improvements to Van Alen/Shaker Square will delay any need for added levies. I think a lot of residents would be okay pulling their own trash cans up and going to the county library system. Two cost savings there ?
June 29, 20231 yr 14 minutes ago, Clefan14 said: Hopefully added density and improvements to Van Alen/Shaker Square will delay any need for added levies. I think a lot of residents would be okay pulling their own trash cans up and going to the county library system. Two cost savings there ? Wait they don't pull their own trash to the curb??
June 29, 20231 yr 4 minutes ago, MyPhoneDead said: Wait they don't pull their own trash to the curb?? Neither does University Hts. At least when I owned a home there. That was a while ago. May have changed since then.
June 29, 20231 yr 5 minutes ago, Htsguy said: Neither does University Hts. At least when I owned a home there. That was a while ago. May have changed since then. Lakewood was like that til around 2005-6
June 29, 20231 yr Uh we shakerites would never want to pull our trash to the curb, are u out of your mind? I will gladly pay the taxes! It’s bad enough just to pull it out of the garage…. in fact we are going to probably raise taxes to build new schools soon…. Ha anyway back to Van Aken, so disappointed in that qua Buick design, we get a beautiful modern glass high rise and then boom right back to cookie cutter boring blah… you’d think an architecture firm designing a building in part for themselves would want something a little more flashy! Maybe I’m alone on that IDK.
June 30, 20231 yr 10 hours ago, Clefan14 said: Hopefully added density and improvements to Van Alen/Shaker Square will delay any need for added levies. I think a lot of residents would be okay pulling their own trash cans up and going to the county library system. Two cost savings there ? Property taxes are what are so high in Shaker Heights. Income tax isn't out of line with most other communities (2.25% with a 1% credit). The library system could probably save a little bit on the property taxes, but trash service and other city services are funded through the income tax. Schools are by far the largest contribution to the property tax rate.
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