Is this thing ever going to get started?

Which "thing"? The TOD at Van Aken/Chagrin/Warrensville, or the Blue Line extension to somewhere south/east of Shaker Heights?

i think they got it wrong when they originally built (rebuilt) shaker towne center. you have built up to the street retail on one side (southside) and then the shopping plaza on the other (northside). i believe before it was built that side had buildings up to the street...anyone have pics? they couldve built shaker towne center like a better version of university square......parking on top, behind, and underground. you have the blue line, 40, and 14 right there. avalon station also looks "discombobulated" around there.

 

 

as for van aken/warrensville i would tear both of those shopping plazas down and build some TOD that is street level

You're right, CTown, Shaker blew it with the rebuilt at Shakertowne Center (aka, the old Chagrin-Lee-Avalon).  Even though it didn't stretch the entire block and, there was a mixed use building on the North side of Chagrin that was mixed use.  Upstairs in that building, I used to go bowling as a kid at Kinsman-Lee Lanes.  At street-level, there was a drug store call Scot's (or Scottie's ... I can't remember).  Parking was behind the building, as it should have been for that "Main Street" effect Shaker has yet to capture (beyond Shaker Square which is not longer within its borders).... In fact, the main entrance to the Bowling alley was from the rear, although there was a small stairwell entrance from the Chagrin side.

 

It's ironic that Shaker Heights, the most rail transit friendly city in Ohio, has never quite got the mixed-use formula perfected like neighbor Cleveland Heights, which does it in several locations such as Coventry and Cedar Lee... Despite the Rapid Shaker, like most of greater Cleveland, foolishly bowed to the almighty auto when it rebuilt Chagrin-Lee-Avalon into Shakertowne Center, in the late 1980s ... and planners have regretted it ever since -- but figured it would be too expensive, and foolish to rebuild again.

 

Shaker does have a few nice pockets of TOD apartments along the Van Aken/Blue Line Rapid around Lee Road and at the Lynnfield and Farnsleigh stations, however.

^ Geez! Clvlndr  :-o...  Computer slow in posting, I'll bet..... Its frustrating. I have had that issue too.  :lol: 

ODOT TRAC funding was proposed/awarded for this yesterday. Still trying to get more details, but it appears to be $3M for preliminary engineering.

^So is there any way that Kasich can screw this up for us?

Yes, he sure can. It's only a recommendation. It wouldn't get final approval by the TRAC until March 2011. The ODOT director is chair of the TRAC, and the current director will be replaced by highwayman Jerry Wray by then.

I wasn't sure if this should be posted in some highway thread, but since the Blue Line extension is mentioned I'll post it here.

 

Shaker Heights awarded grant to help reconfigure Warrensville/Van Aken/Chagrin intersection

 

SHAKER HEIGHTS, Ohio -

    Funds will be used to reconfigure the Shaker Heights intersection at the corners of Warrensville Center Road, Northfield Road, Van Aken Boulevard and Chagrin Boulevard, one of the busiest and most frustrating in the state, into a simple four-way crossing.

    The $453,000 grant awarded to the city from the Federal Highway Administration brings the project funds to nearly $15 million. The total project will cost $17.4 million.

 

 

Read more: http://www.newsnet5.com/dpp/traffic/traffic_news/shaker-heights-awarded-grant-to-help-reconfigure-warrensville-van-aken-chagrin-intersection#ixzz1ZLcv64Ym

 

 

 

 

This is certainly a good spot for that article. This is ultimately about creating a TOD for this area, and the creation of street grid will enable it. The Blue Line extension isn't essential for creating the TOD since it could serve from its current terminus. But the street grid is essential.

 

When a developer steps forward to build here (Stark Enterprises is often mentioned), then we'll need to decide whether to move this to Projects/Construction or keep it here as a TOD project.

They could start by taking out that horrible retail strip on the NW corner of Warrensville and Van Aiken.  At least parking is in the rear..... or is that the front?  Worst... design.... ever.

BEFORE

 

AFTER

Looks like a very nice plan , hopefully it gets built this decade.

Looks like a very nice plan , hopefully it gets built this decade.

 

Decade?  If this is built in my lifetime, I'll do cartwheels down Van Aken all the way to my house!

They have most of the funding in hand for re-doing the streets and creating the street grid. They probably have enough to get started with the first and most important part of this project.

 

Once the street grid is built, then development can happen. Extension of the Blue Line isn't essential for this to be a TOD, since the Blue Line already serves it. But extending it to the other side of the intersection and to a new intermodal station is one of the most problematic parts of extending the Blue Line south to Randall.

They have most of the funding in hand for re-doing the streets and creating the street grid. They probably have enough to get started with the first and most important part of this project.

 

Once the street grid is built, then development can happen. Extension of the Blue Line isn't essential for this to be a TOD, since the Blue Line already serves it. But extending it to the other side of the intersection and to a new intermodal station is one of the most problematic parts of extending the Blue Line south to Randall.

 

Maybe I'm just imagining things, but wasn't there a newer drawing of this proposal in another thread that showed the Blue Line going down Chagrin?

That was one of four route options considered in the first phase of federally compliant planning called an alternatives analysis. The AA also looked at bus options and the required no-build baseline -- what happens if you don't do anything. The rail options were to go east on Chagrin, south on Northfield then east on Harvard, south on Northfield to North Randall, or south on Warrensville to North Randall. The option of taking a rail line south in the median of Northfield to North Randall appears to be the most cost-effective.

The option of taking a rail line south in the median of Northfield to North Randall appears to be the most cost-effective.

 

But what exactly is the point?

 

Also, if Northfield is closed off at the Chagrin-Warrensville intersection, how are will auto traffic access it?  If the proposal is to flush traffic to the side streets, I think we'll see a new mess form at that intersection.  I always thought the traffic circle idea made some sense but I guess it's off the table.

The point is to serve a redeveloped Randall Park Mall, promote redevelopment in North Randall overall, provide better transportation to Warrensville Hts, and provide a park-n-ride close to major highways.

 

Northfield will be on a new path that has it ending at a T-intersection with Warrensville, shown in the graphic above at the bottom of the study boundary.

I understand this was probably an early planning scheme, but it disrupts a lot of existing businesses.  It eliminates the Wendys and BP gas station on opposite corners of Warrensville Center, a retirement/nursing home, the entire shopping center south of Van Aken before you reach Chagrin/WC and others I'm sure.  They would obviously be relocated in the area but quite a lot of disruption for existing businesses.

I'm sure most of them are going to be demolished. So yes, they are going to be disrupted.

The point is to serve a redeveloped Randall Park Mall, promote redevelopment in North Randall overall, provide better transportation to Warrensville Hts, and provide a park-n-ride close to major highways.

 

I'm trying to educate myself on the Randall Park Mall redevelopment, but I'm skeptical.  I just don't know if it would be worth it to extend the Blue Line out to that area.  I think the proposed idea of extending the line out to the Harvard Park/Chagrin Highlands/I-271 area made more sense.

 

Northfield will be on a new path that has it ending at a T-intersection with Warrensville, shown in the graphic above at the bottom of the study boundary.

 

So what happens to all of the traffic that uses Van Aken-Northfield to cross that intersection on a daily basis?  I think forcing them elsewhere is just going to create messes in other areas.

I'm sure most of them are going to be demolished. So yes, they are going to be disrupted.

 

As long as they don't touch Charley's Grilled Subs, I'm cool.

I understand this was probably an early planning scheme, but it disrupts a lot of existing businesses.  It eliminates the Wendys and BP gas station on opposite corners of Warrensville Center, a retirement/nursing home, the entire shopping center south of Van Aken before you reach Chagrin/WC and others I'm sure.  They would obviously be relocated in the area but quite a lot of disruption for existing businesses.

 

Yeah, I'm really curious how the shopping center owners are viewing all this.  It's hard to imagine the city would go through all this trouble without some buy-in from them, but I don't think we've heard much about their intentions.  It's kind of hard to know how seriously to take any of this in the mean time.  At this point I'm pretty skeptical the landlords will trade up from their shopping center format given the state of the housing and office markets, but I desperately want to be wrong.  This would be an awesome TOD site.

I'm trying to educate myself on the Randall Park Mall redevelopment, but I'm skeptical.  I just don't know if it would be worth it to extend the Blue Line out to that area.  I think the proposed idea of extending the line out to the Harvard Park/Chagrin Highlands/I-271 area made more sense.

 

I'm also skeptical about the capacity of Randall Park Mall's new owner to carry out their plans, but they are interested in redeveloping around the Blue Line extension whereas the Jacobs Group (Chagrin Highland's developers) have rejected RTA's overtures to employ transit/pedestrian-friendly land use designs.

 

So what happens to all of the traffic that uses Van Aken-Northfield to cross that intersection on a daily basis?  I think forcing them elsewhere is just going to create messes in other areas.

 

Changing land use changes the demands on the transportation system.

I'm also skeptical about the capacity of Randall Park Mall's new owner to carry out their plans, but they are interested in redeveloping around the Blue Line extension whereas the Jacobs Group (Chagrin Highland's developers) have rejected RTA's overtures to employ transit/pedestrian-friendly land use designs.

 

So essentially we could be building this extension just for the sake of building it?  What if that redevelopment fails (which is not an unlikely scenario)?  Then we've got a Blue Line extension to nowhere?

 

Changing land use changes the demands on the transportation system.

 

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying here.  The primary goal of redesigning this intersection should be to get traffic through more quickly and efficiently.  What happens on the fringes with development should be a secondary concern.  Cutting off access to the intersection from Van Aken and Northfield is simply going to push that traffic to side streets (including some very residential areas) creating a whole new set of problems and headaches for residents and others who are in that area more than once a month.

so we condemn our city for not being an attractive enough urban area... and then expect and demand it function like an exurb... and then condemn it for not being an attractive urban area.  got it.

As I understand this project, redevelopment is an important aspect of it....but also a large part of it (and probably the reason it got most of the funding) was to tame one of the most dangerous intersections in northeast Ohio.  In this regard, I am sure major traffice studies were conducted, and if sheparding traffic to side streets was going to be the result the powers that be would have had a major problem with it.

It is possible to have a solid urban environment that's also easy to navigate.  Van Aken and Northfield do seem needlessly pinched off in that rendering.  But I think extending the blue line is important enough to make some sacrifices.  I'm less concerned with getting it to Randall Park, more concerned with getting it to the industrial base in Solon.  At that point it becomes more than a downtown shuttle, which is important considering how many jobs are now located on the county's fringes. 

As I understand this project, redevelopment is an important aspect of it....but also a large part of it (and probably the reason it got most of the funding) was to tame one of the most dangerous intersections in northeast Ohio.  In this regard, I am sure major traffice studies were conducted, and if sheparding traffic to side streets was going to be the result the powers that be would have had a major problem with it.

 

So where does that traffic go?  I want to know what they are thinking will happen to the hundreds of automobiles that on a daily basis cross that intersection using Van Aken/Northfield.

Changing land use changes the demands on the transportation system.

 

I'm not sure I'm understanding what you are saying here.  The primary goal of redesigning this intersection should be to get traffic through more quickly and efficiently.  What happens on the fringes with development should be a secondary concern.  Cutting off access to the intersection from Van Aken and Northfield is simply going to push that traffic to side streets (including some very residential areas) creating a whole new set of problems and headaches for residents and others who are in that area more than once a month.

 

A livable urban setting reduces the volume and speed of traffic, has transportation options available, has density, mixed use. Just as when you add road capacity and speed, you induce more people to drive more often and farther, the opposite happens when you take it away. But if you want economic growth to occur, cities have to give people an alternative land use to car-dominated patterns. That is why Shaker Heights wants to create a downtown.

 

But this document (especially Table 2 on Page 6, and Table 3 on Page 7) is more instructive than anything I can offer in a sound bite:

http://www.vtpi.org/landtravel.pdf

 

The paragraph below Table 2 is also an important summary....

 

These factors can significantly affect travel activity as illustrated in Figure 1. Central

location residents typically drive 20-40% less and walk, cycle and use public transit two

to four times more than they would at a Suburban location, and they drive 20-40% less

than they would in a rural location. However, there are many variations among these

categories. Suburban and rural villages can incorporate features such as sidewalks,

bikelanes and land use mixing that increase accessibility and transport diversity. As a

result, there are many degrees of accessibility and multi-modalism. 

^Gotcha.  Hypothetically that sounds like a great idea.  But those people that are commuting from the outer-ring suburbs to Cleveland/those commuting from western Shaker Heights to the employment centers of Beachwood/Bedford/Solon probably aren't going to be changing their transportation methods/patterns all that much because Shaker heights wants a downtown in the middle of their current route.  That assumption simply cannot be made.  I think a great deal of those people are still going to approach that intersection as usual and use side streets to navigate around.  Either that, or they'll start using other routes through Shaker Heights, causing new traffic problems in other parts of the city. 

 

I'll never claim to be an expect on this, but it does look like they're setting themselves up for some potentially serious unintended consequences. 

I agree with that theory, but such changes aren't likely to occur until the line is fully extended.  All of them, really, plus better bus service.  If the transit isn't there when the road capacity is taken away, all that does is make traffic worse.  The net capacity to move people, regardless of mode, has been reduced.  Above all else, TOD requires the T.         

 

This project is a necessary step in extending the line and fostering TOD, but it's not like this area didn't already have rail service, and the service isn't really being extended yet.  Traffic is likely to get worse before it gets better.  That said, we still need to do this, or we'll never get to the good part.

I agree with that theory, but such changes aren't likely to occur until the line is fully extended.  All of them, really, plus better bus service.  If the transit isn't there when the road capacity is taken away, all that does is make traffic worse.  The net capacity to move people, regardless of mode, has been reduced.  Above all else, TOD requires the T.         

 

This project is a necessary step in extending the line and fostering TOD, but it's not like this area didn't already have rail service, and the service isn't really being extended yet.  Traffic is likely to get worse before it gets better.  That said, we still need to do this, or we'll never get to the good part.

 

If it's extended to Solon, who would use the transit?  Do you think that a lot of people from surrounding suburbs would park and ride?  Would you expect to see downtown workers using the train?  How long would such a commute from Solon to downtown take?  Would people be turned off by the idea of riding through North Randall, assuming that redevelopment there doesn't work out?  Would extending the rail system to the exurbs possibly encourage people to move out the central city (or tacitly endorse such sprawl)?

 

These are just a few questions I have about extending the Blue Line even further (into exurbia), because I did not even know that that was a possibility.

I think people along the existing line would use it to get to jobs in Solon, as would people along the other rail lines.  By bus it takes an hour to get from downtown to 271.  By train you could easily get from downtown to Solon in less than that.  Presumably the extension wouldn't have a ton of stops like in Shaker. 

 

I don't consider Solon to be exurbia.  Some if it is, but it's also within the county and parts of it could be mistaken for West Park.  More importantly, it has enough open factories to make any city jealous.  It's really not a bedroom community at all.  One of the structural problems with Cleveland and other older cities is that the jobs, especially the industrial ones, have moved beyond the practical reach of the transit systems.  Ideally RTA should connect all county residents with all county job centers, and Solon is a big one.

^Gotcha.  Hypothetically that sounds like a great idea.  But those people that are commuting from the outer-ring suburbs to Cleveland/those commuting from western Shaker Heights to the employment centers of Beachwood/Bedford/Solon probably aren't going to be changing their transportation methods/patterns all that much because Shaker heights wants a downtown in the middle of their current route.  That assumption simply cannot be made.  I think a great deal of those people are still going to approach that intersection as usual and use side streets to navigate around.  Either that, or they'll start using other routes through Shaker Heights, causing new traffic problems in other parts of the city. 

 

I'll never claim to be an expect on this, but it does look like they're setting themselves up for some potentially serious unintended consequences. 

 

The theory exists in practice nearby at Shaker Square -- one of nation's first planned TOD's.

TOD if done right , like the plan I see posted.    Shouldn't really affect traffic all that much in a negative way , you might see traffic levels go down a bit.  As for creating an Urban Core within a suburb , its becoming more and more popular.  Mostly in towns with low crime or good school disrects since Large Urban areas tend to have neither or at least at a affordable price.  As you can see in my NYC Metro town and small city photo threads , its a trend that is not limited to the Northeast although it started here.  You can find Suburban TOD around Chicagoland , The Twin Cities , Denver , and the Portland Metro aswell as every Canadian city.    As for who will live in this development , it will be catered to anyone who works in Downtown Cleveland , but wants a suburban life.    People who don't work in Downtown Cleveland or along the RTA line , probably won't move into this redevelopment. 

^Gotcha.  Hypothetically that sounds like a great idea.  But those people that are commuting from the outer-ring suburbs to Cleveland/those commuting from western Shaker Heights to the employment centers of Beachwood/Bedford/Solon probably aren't going to be changing their transportation methods/patterns all that much because Shaker heights wants a downtown in the middle of their current route.  That assumption simply cannot be made.  I think a great deal of those people are still going to approach that intersection as usual and use side streets to navigate around.  Either that, or they'll start using other routes through Shaker Heights, causing new traffic problems in other parts of the city. 

 

I'll never claim to be an expect on this, but it does look like they're setting themselves up for some potentially serious unintended consequences. 

 

The theory exists in practice nearby at Shaker Square -- one of nation's first planned TOD's.

 

It's not the TOD part that concerns me.  It's the rerouting of traffic.

I think people along the existing line would use it to get to jobs in Solon, as would people along the other rail lines.  By bus it takes an hour to get from downtown to 271.  By train you could easily get from downtown to Solon in less than that.  Presumably the extension wouldn't have a ton of stops like in Shaker. 

 

I don't consider Solon to be exurbia.  Some if it is, but it's also within the county and parts of it could be mistaken for West Park.  More importantly, it has enough open factories to make any city jealous.  It's really not a bedroom community at all.  One of the structural problems with Cleveland and other older cities is that the jobs, especially the industrial ones, have moved beyond the practical reach of the transit systems.  Ideally RTA should connect all county residents with all county job centers, and Solon is a big one.

 

Well, if that's the goal, and it's a noble one, then it probably begins and ends with the Blue Line.  Beachwood preempted any logical move to extend the Green Line further east (which would have made a lot of sense and worked out very well) and I don't know enough about the Red Line to know what its options might be, though I suspect there are also some big obstacles there, as well.

 

I think, for the most part, we're several decades too late here.

I think people would use the train to get to solon and Vice versa. The traffic at that I480, I271, OH-422 is a huge bottleneck.  Also Northfield is Route 8, which goes all the way to Akron. I don't know if the Blue Line cars would be the most suitable to travel that far of a distance, but the thought is interesting. Maybe an express train that had a few stops could be scheduled for commuters.

 

It's not the TOD part that concerns me.  It's the rerouting of traffic.

 

Think of a TOD as a traffic sponge!

 

 

OK, not that kind of sponge!!

I dont like all the office space. This plan could possibly lure companies away from downtown.

I think people would use the train to get to solon and Vice versa. The traffic at that I480, I271, OH-422 is a huge bottleneck.  Also Northfield is Route 8, which goes all the way to Akron. I don't know if the Blue Line cars would be the most suitable to travel that far of a distance, but the thought is interesting. Maybe an express train that had a few stops could be scheduled for commuters.

the blue/green line are not commutter rail.  Its bad enough they travel to Van Aken without express service, something we had in the past.

 

So what happens to all of the traffic that uses Van Aken-Northfield to cross that intersection on a daily basis?  I think forcing them elsewhere is just going to create messes in other areas.

 

Look at the graphic posted by KJP on page 6. 

 

Northbound Northfield lanes re-route to a T intersection with Chagrin.

Northbound Van Aken traffic enters from Farnsleigh via Warrensville Center (a fairly major path already)

Southbound Van Aken traffic lanes move to a T-intersection with a slightly re-routed Farnsleigh.  (also a fairly major path already)

Southbound Northfield will enter a new T-intersection off of Warrensville Center.

 

The traffic isn't re-routed to side streets, just the original lanes change course.  There may be some new headaches with the intersections on Chagrin and Warrensville (which may be what you are referring to)  but I'm sure the traffic signals will be coordinated accordingly.

 

I think people would use the train to get to solon and Vice versa. The traffic at that I480, I271, OH-422 is a huge bottleneck.  Also Northfield is Route 8, which goes all the way to Akron. I don't know if the Blue Line cars would be the most suitable to travel that far of a distance, but the thought is interesting. Maybe an express train that had a few stops could be scheduled for commuters.

the blue/green line are not commutter rail.  Its bad enough they travel to Van Aken without express service, something we had in the past.

 

Agreed!  A 20 min. drive through the corridors turns into a 40 min or longer RTA ride

I dont like all the office space. This plan could possibly lure companies away from downtown.

 

Or lure companies from the suburbs or Beechwood.. (Although the Shaker incubator is doing well, they will need more office space).

Shaker needs to diversify its tax base where it can so it can lower its property taxes a bit, which are about the highest in the nation. 

^Definitely not to nic-pick, but Van Aken is in the 'burbs. Any businesses that get lured there won't be in Cleveland proper, though if the area (Van Aken) could keep business from leaving NEO or building an office further out, it would be beneficial.

Then beachwood is also good cause they save companies from leaving the region. Just because this project is next to rail, doesn't really make it better then beachwood offices(which I hate). And there is no way in knowing if cleveland businesses won't move there or not. Change to offices to residential and this is some great TOD

I dont care.  As an inner ring suburb (more than Beechwood) they need to be able to compete and diversify their tax base.  Currently a growing company would have to leave the city for Beechwood or farther out.  There is a ton of residential along this line already, adding some office and live work will only add to the mix.       

I don't have a problem with an inner-ring suburb that's been mostly a bedroom community for 100 years adding offices to its taxbase. A lot of communities want offices because their net fiscal impact is so positive -- they usually bring healthy income taxes without incurring costly public services such as police to catch shoplifters, sewers because unlike housing office workers aren't taking showers and washing dishes, school facilities from more housing, or even trash pickup since office buildings usually contract that out.

 

And since this development is on a transit line, its jobs will be accessible to residents from the city of Cleveland. Shaker Heights will do what's in its best interest, but this project will have some benefits to Cleveland because of its accessibility.