Grasscat, do you have thae map that shows the hotspots by Dist 1? 

I guess the place was a bit empty as it was Sunday afternoon in January, but looking at the online guide I do see there are a lot of vacanies, too, so I wonder if this place is hurting a bit?

 

The market expanded dramatically in the last year or so - I don't really know that the vacancies are due to vendors leaving or the market doing poorly, but more due to there being so many more "store fronts" than there used to be inside the building...every time I've been there, it seems like there are just as many vendors and as many people as I always remember, just in and around a bigger building.

Grasscat, do you have thae map that shows the hotspots by Dist 1? 

 

I sure don't.  I was going by the numbers from Cinsite, the map in the Powerpoint file, things I've heard, and guessing.  Not exactly scientific.

 

I would like to see a map if there is one.

 

Maybe, if someone has some time on their hands, they'd like to get the police stats, download the Excel file, sort it, and come up with a definitive answer.

Assuming what I have found is what you're talking about, I think it canpretty easily be geocoded using ArcGIS since every incident has a street address.  I'd be happy to make some maps, but I'll be damned if I'm going to go into school tomorrow (where the GIS is) when I have no other reason to go. :sleep:

 

Well, maybe if you're lucky I'll be really bored tomorrow and go do it.  Otherwise give me until Thursday or Friday and I could probably churn something out.  The only tricky part is to remember how to do the geocode maps.  It's been a while.

Out of curiosity, what is the most dangerous intersection of Over-the-Rhine?

 

I would say either vine and green or race and green.  13th and republic used to be really bad. 15th and race is another bad one.

Personally I find OTR to be pretty intimidating..a place I usually avoid.   However, while down in Cincinnati this past Sunday, I did finally visit Findly Market.

 

I have lived in SW Ohio for many years now and have frequently travelled to Cincinnati, but I never visited Findly Market as it was wedged in the middle of this big slum, and I just did not feel safe parking my car on Race or other side streets street and walking to the market...I've driven by it on Race a few times, though.

 

I am not trying to insinuate anything here, but my wife has walked from 7th and Race St. to Findlay Market a few times and she is 5'3'' and 95 lbs. Although, I don't encourage this, she likes some kind of ice-cream there?

Yeah, I dont find OTR nearly as intimidating as I used to. I guess because I live so close I have gotten used to it. The only part I feel a little uneasy is around Kroger on Vine just because there are about 500 people meandering that look like they have nothing to do. Like others have said before, you just have to be smart. If Helen Soccermomerson was walking down the street staring at everyone or if Shady the kentucky boy coming up for drugs was being all sketchy in the street I am sure there would be trouble, but I have rarely seen a passerby who has somewhere to be, be bothered. I dont know, I guess it is a personal perception thing.

Jeff;

Yes, one thing that some people forget is that Findlay Market has survived on mostly local shoppers since it's inception.  The market has tried to change direction and attract people from other neighborhoods.  This is one of the reasons that they started the Sunday hours.  Many of the stands do struggle, and the ones who have opened up other stores, such as Silverglades, have found much busier places to business in other parts of the city.

Thanks, Jimmy, I think one of the things I like about it is that it isn't this upscale specialty foods place....that it is a real market still.  Now that I know where the parking is I will be coming back again on a busier day. 

 

What I was concerned about was the vacancies...here is a map from the site...

 

...210, 212, & 214 are shown as vacant, and there are some storefronts that appear to be not even on this list  (that old-timey fish place that I saw is #206, Heist Fish & Poultry...that place has rotating ceiling fans and a high pressed metal ceiling and some vintage old freezer cases..like time stood still).

 

Here is the market house, with a list of the vendors...

 

 

Market House

#101 Busch's Country Corner

#104 Mackie Quality Meats

#105 Bender Meats

#107 Heist Fish & Poultry, LLC

#109 Mike's Meats

#110 Kroeger & Sons Meats

#116 Adrian's

#128 Luken's Fish, Poultry, and Seafood

#130 Gibbs Cheese

#134 Charles Bare Meats

 

 

Esplanade

#117 Tara's Coffee Shop

#118 Divine Delights

#120/124 Mejana Express

#126 Ms. Helen's Grill

#141 Ricky Jones Produce

#142 - #144 Simpson Produce

#145 - #147 Heminghaus Produce

#148 Rialto Floral

#149 Nature's Gifts

#150 Poppie's Flavored Ice

#312 Gaudio Produce

#314 Dean's Quality Produce

 

..oh this is neat..there is a street market too...

 

 

...and a famers market...

 

 

 

I am definetly going to have to come here again on a Saturday!  When we where there on Sunday we got stuff at Mackies Meats, Charles Bare, Madison's, and some produce place in the Market House...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Jeff, If you want to see the market in full swing go on a Saturday around 10 am from April to Oct. I do about 75% of my monthly food shopping at the market "The rest includes Jungle jims/Trader joes/Kellers IGA"  :-)

210 is Green Gene the mustard man (if he is still there), and 212/214 is Paula's, the place you called "frou frou".  Try her for a quick sandwich, she is struggling but has great stuff and she really appreciates her customers.  The real vacancy is inside the market house at 129, 133, 135.  That corner is a gaping hole in the market.  Some of the surrounding buildings are not numbered, but would offer great expansion possibilities if the market rebounds.

^And like I said earlier, it's not like they were once filled to capacity and have been losing vendors - most of those vacancies were never filled in the first place after expansion...that is correct, isn't it?  I didn't miss some post-expansion phase of 100% occupancy...have they lost any vendors?

Some of the vendors that were in the market house moved into rehabbed buildings to the north.  This was supposed to be a temporary move while the rehab happened, but they liked the "temporary" space better and ended up staying.  This resulted in the market house vacancies, despite some new vendors.

 

A few vendors did leave, notably produce vendors Catanzaro and another vegetable stand in a south building.  Overall though there has been a clear net increase in vendors since the renovations started, and since the riots.

Out of curiosity, what is the most dangerous intersection of Over-the-Rhine?

 

Republic and Green and Republic and 15th, in my opinion.

210 is Green Gene the mustard man (if he is still there), and 212/214 is Paula's, the place you called "frou frou".  Try her for a quick sandwich, she is struggling but has great stuff and she really appreciates her customers. 

 

The mustard man is still there. Paula's has the best reuben I've ever eaten, and I've eaten quite a few. The corned beef was so tender... mmm...

I mapped out the crime incidents from 2005... but there was a problem in trying to use some of the symbols I wanted when I transferred the stuff to my home computer.  So I'll post images when next I go in to school.

 

For now, a little description of what I saw:

 

Although I mapped all police incident reports, I concentrated on what seem like more serious crimes- murder, rape, robbery, and felonious assault.  The observations don't do much to answer the "most dangerous intersection" question, but here's a little summary of each type.

 

Muder- about 5 were within a couple blocks of Washington Park.

Rape- the most clustering seems to be in the vicinity of Vine and Race around 15th Street

Robbery- all over the place (especially along Vine Street), and a little hard to identify hot spots, but a couple that maybe stand out are Vine between Liberty and McMicken, and Main between 12th and Woodward St.

Felonious assault- Vine and McMicken, Vine near 14th and 15th (these are also all over the place)

 

By the way, look what you can do with maps.

Title- "Cincinnati is infested with crime!  42,000 of the 43,722 crimes reported by police in 2005."

:wink: (I assume you all can figure out why that's an unfair map.)

Can you do one with just murder & rape and make them different colors?

And can you zoom in on OTR?

Yes!  Those will be the maps that I said I'd show in the next couple of days.

 

Patience!

 

As for the reason I don't have them at the moment, it's because what I originally had as point symbols got turned into crazy things like letters when I opened it on my own computer... some kind of font issue or something.  I could get some screen captures now, but I wanted to use the nicer-looking maps I had made.

I keep editing the above post, but I'll just put this in a new one.

 

Since you guys are probably interested in looking at the data yourselves, I thought I'd upload my files so you can get them.

 

You can find them all here: http://mywebspace.wisc.edu/awoodruff/cincycrimemap

I think if you click on the "Launch WFS WebUI" link there you can get to a checklist and then download everything at once as a zip file.

 

The "all crimes" shapefile has the points for every incident like what I showed above.  (Actually, the thing was unable to match about 4% of the records to addresses on the map, but I assume that's not too big a deal at least in terms of seeing patterns.)  The others--murders, rapes, robberies, and felonious assaults--are just subsets that I separated out, but "all crimes" still contains those data too.  By the way, I was going by the code numbers for the type of crime, so there is some fuzziness, such as felonious assaults including "ethnic intimidation," but I didn't notice that until after they were all done.

 

The tgr39061lkA stuff is Hamilton County streets.

 

If you don't have something, download a GIS viewer like ArcExplorer and then add those shapefiles as layers to have a look.  (If you get ArcExplorer and haven't used something like it before, basically all you need to know for this is to click the button with the plus sign, and you should be able to figure it out well enough from there.)

 

I'm posting this while still uploading stuff, so if you read this and try to get there within the next few minutes it probably won't work yet, but it should be there soon.

 

Enjoy. :-) :shoot:

(I assume you all can figure out why that's an unfair map.)

 

I can't, unless there is some sort of correlation for population density.

 

Even so this is alot of criminal incidents (assuming this map does not include things like traffic violations), spread all over the city.

 

 

 

^ Well, not traffic violations, but I did just mean that a lot of the stuff is not the violent crime that people tend to worry about most.  (Although I don't want to deny that there is still a lot of violent crime.)

 

It's about the power of maps.  I was just imagining that as a map from some city-hating group saying: "Look, there are nearly 44,000 crimes a year!  You can't even walk down the street!"  Or for a better evil map, they could use little symbols of handguns instead of just dots, and maybe people would flee Cincinnati for their lives.

 

I suppose this would be better suited to the general Cincy crime thread...

^I remember seeing a map that had the Ohio red, as if there was so much killing that the river ran red with blood, but I can't remember where, it was a couple years back, when I never would have went near OTR.

I don't think I'll get around to retrieving my "nice" maps today, so screw it... here's a screen capture for those who don't want to bother downloading all that stuff I linked to earlier.  I can post more showing different things if anyone has requests.

 

Here's OTR (and nearby areas) with the biggies- murder (red) and rape (blue).

 

I had some things in mind to make a clearer, less crude map, but I can't do it here at home without ArcMap.  There are also other variables that can be looked at.  For example, the records make note of where the crime was- street, parking lot, yard, bar, residence, etc.  But that, too, is difficult to get at without ArcMap.

Looks like it is "unsafe" to say that Vine is the most dangerous street in OTR.

monte,

I am having trouble with the map and figuring what is what, but what I think is vine seems pretty lit up with red and blue.  Is the one line going straight across Liberty? (middle of the map)

Yes, I think that is Liberty.

 

One thing looking at that map, over the course of the year, murders are actually pretty sparse (is this a frequent crime anyway?) but quite a few rapes.

 

I wonder about things like assault , aggregated assault, & 'muggings' (not sure how that would classify).  Adding these could give more of a pix as to how "violent" an area is.

 

I recall on a UK message board, there was a lot of finger-pointing at the USA and US cities being these violent murderous places, until a study came out showing that the likelyhood of actually being subjected to or witnessing casual violence...being attacked, mugged, bar fights, etc was higher in Great Britain than in the urban US.

 

So this map and data is sort of interesting in that context...

good point.

Assaults...

 

The map below shows what were called "felonious assault" (plus a couple of apparently related crimes).  I'm not up on my criminal terms, but I believe in general that's an assault with a deadly weapon, as opposed to just plain "assault," which I think can be just a threat and of which there are a ton (not shown).  So I think this would often include muggings.

 

In this map, although a few hot spots stand out, it's almost easier to remark on the areas that don't have a lot.  Oh, and I've added a couple labels. :wink:  By the way, the street lines are likely to include things you don't normally consider streets or that so far as I can tell sometimes don't even exist, so keep that in mind if you're trying to figure out which street is which.

 

One thing to bear in mind with these maps is that each point is necessarily right on the street even if the crime actually occurred somewhere inside the block.  The points are placed on the lines according to their address.

 

Another caveat: as I think I mentioned before somewhere, 1500-1600 data points (of nearly 44,000) were not successfully placed on the map.  So some crimes may be missing, and if a murder is missing, that might have an impact on what we see as the pattern.

Well still it looks like Vine, anyone seeing something I am not?  And look at the area around the top of vine going into Clifton, isn't that where Madfrog sits?  three or four in Inwood Park, but vine is almost a straight line of green in my eyes.

Well still it looks like Vine, anyone seeing something I am not?  And look at the area around the top of vine going into Clifton, isn't that where Madfrog sits?  three or four in Inwood Park, but vine is almost a straight line of green in my eyes.

 

Agree.  Vine shows up pretty clear in the assault map.  That cluster you are looking at is at the bottom of the Vine Street hill..where Vine meets McMicken, I think.

 

It looks like there is another clustering going on in the West End (above the "Liberty" label)?   

 

Interesting map.  There are some patterns there, I think...does anyone else see clustering at or near intersections?

 

 

 

 

 

You are right about that being Vine and McMicken, well crap, that falls in my sector, sorry about that, I will get right on it. Of course there are about 5 streets that come together there

12th Street seems pretty well defined by these points, too, although it's not as strong as Vine.

It looks like there is another clustering going on in the West End (above the "Liberty" label)?

 

Yeah, that's Findlay and Linn.

Address in OTR with the most assaults: 1700 Vine, with 7 of them.

Fascinating stuff Andy.  Thanks for taking the time to put this together.

Robberies

 

Vine Street stands out again, but notice also how it all extends well into the CBD.

I would like to see one of downtown Columbus to see how Cincinnati compares.

All hail Pigboy...thanks for all your time!

where did you get that pic of the grid with robbery stats?  pigboy....btw great city photos

weird

It looks like you are safer going east west than north south.

Any other crimes I should map?  Misuse of credit card?  Telephone harassment?  This is good stuff!

 

Actually there are some others that would be interesting to see, such as vehicle theft.

 

Speaking of east to west, it just occurred to me that these maps have a big hole where City West is being built, so anything going on there isn't going to show up (because there are no street lines on which to place the addresses).  But maybe nobody cares about that West End stuff in this thread anyway.

Any other crimes I should map?

 

Columbus, Cleveland?

  Hey...I feel slighted!  Cleveland had 115 murders in 2005!  Did that lead Ohio?  Man, we're number one!  Something to be proud of!!!!  (sarcasm)  lol

Any other crimes I should map?

 

Columbus, Cleveland?

Find me some crime stats and I'd love to. :wink:

 

Cincinnati has that nice Excel file on the police department web page.

It'd be interesting to see it expanded - I'd dig seeing Walnut Hills, since I live there, and Evanston and Madisonville and Norwood, since I'm a fan of all three hoods...

^ I can post more maps of other hoods later today.  I'll put them in the "Cincy's crime problem" thread, since this one's about OTR.  I don't have Norwood, though, because they're just city of Cincinnati stats.

The red dot on Mulberry is my house!  Directly up from Frintz.  Ok, I can officially vouch for the map, it is accurate.

Mike you had a robbery?

Yeah, terrible story to.  Holly and I were at our wedding reception.  We came home and things like Jewelry boxes and watch cases were all laying at the bottom of our steps.  We were fortunate, the guy took some very expensive watches but he was no jewelry expert, he passed up the small good stuff, for the fake big stuff. 

 

If anyone can learn a lesson about crime in OTR, it would be from this case.  He was caught several months later, after breaking into over 50 homes in OTR, Mt. Auburn and Mt. Adams (David Pepper even got hit by this guy).  This to me illustrates the need to get information out about car or home breakins immediately to as many people in our community as possible.  Had we known, we may have double checked the locks, made sure the alarm was on that day (and I did not) or at least pay just a little bit more attention to who is in the neighborhood that day.

 

This guy probably is responsible for perhaps a third of the dots on that map. 1 guy!